What I Think And What You Think

[cactoblasta]

Now its my turn to be unsure if you, cactoblasta, are being sarcastic. I really truly hope that you are, because that's scary otherwise. How could you live a life insulated by the illusions that society built for you? I can think of nothing worse than to be unable to see past the "well-spun lies" created for our "own good".

 

Simple. One day at a time. Everyone manufactures their own illusions or borrows them from society all the time. I for one wish I could labour under the illusion that I got where I am in life for a better reason than because I was born the right person at the right time. There's probably a few billion people who, in my circumstances, could do my job yet haven't had the opportunity.

 

It used to feel good to think that I got it based on merit. What good has the truth done me in that instance?

 

Then there's foreign aid. Lots of people give lots of cash to charities in the inaccurate belief that their money will go to help the less fortunate. It's a nice dream; does anyone have a right to go around destroying that with cruel truths about the international aid markets and the necessity of corruption in 3rd world operations?

 

Illusions make the world seem like a better place than it really is. In my view, when it comes to revealing callous truths there's only one question to be asked:

 

What has the world done to you that you should hurt it so?

[karkarinus]

'Tis a bleak picture you paint, Cactoblasta, and an ill wind doth chill my soul, that you should actually be serious in what you say.

It's a nice dream; does anyone have a right to go around destroying that with cruel truths about the international aid markets and the necessity of corruption in 3rd world operations?

Not a right - an OBLIGATION!

Illusions make the world seem like a better place than it really is.

So you think it's OK to pay good money for the illusion that everything is just tickety-boo, rather than making sure the money goes to actually improving the state of affairs? Sod the illusion - I'd rather keep my cash and keep worrying than waste it on fuelling false illusions and lining some Cambodian general's pocket !!!

[loveme4whoiam]

It's a nice dream; does anyone have a right to go around destroying that with cruel truths about the international aid markets and the necessity of corruption in 3rd world operations?

Not a right - an OBLIGATION!

You are utterly right karkarinus - these illusions are what hold back the work of people who actually are trying to make the world, which you so rightly say is a terrible terrible place, something better.

 

And with the example of international aid, well, frankly I think a part of why people contribute is to asuage people's collective guilt that they are living their cushy lives whilst others die because the water they drink is infected. If they perhaps realised that, rather than giving their "obligatory" contribution once or twice a year, they instead decided to use the power of popular movement to actually do something about it. Imagine that everyone who regularly contributes to charity instead pressured their government to write off Third World debt - think what might happen!

 

Illusions further only the status quo, and keep this crappy world in the state it is in, nothing more.

[cactoblasta]

So you think it's OK to pay good money for the illusion that everything is just tickety-boo, rather than making sure the money goes to actually improving the state of affairs? Sod the illusion - I'd rather keep my cash and keep worrying than waste it on fuelling false illusions and lining some Cambodian general's pocket !!!

 

Right, but there's nothing to say that the money you donate is ever actually going to do anything save line that pocket. It doesn't really matter whether you know about it or what you do unless you happen to have your own private army. No government is going to interfere because of politics.

 

So what benefit is it to know?

 

And with the example of international aid, well, frankly I think a part of why people contribute is to asuage people's collective guilt that they are living their cushy lives whilst others die because the water they drink is infected. If they perhaps realised that, rather than giving their "obligatory" contribution once or twice a year, they instead decided to use the power of popular movement to actually do something about it. Imagine that everyone who regularly contributes to charity instead pressured their government to write off Third World debt - think what might happen!

 

*censored* all would happen in my view. Do you think governments don't know how to shape public opinions? It's not like it's difficult. Oh sure, there'd be some promises made, a few debts cancelled, maybe even some treaties signed. But the underlying structural problems of the countries involved wouldn't be solved so easily because it doesn't take long for the mob to forget something.

 

There are movements around already that exist to publicise aid issues. Despite having the truth on their side they are more or less ineffectual because people at base prefer a pleasant fiction to a dirty reality. I'm sure you've noticed personally that many people will believe the most outrageous things about others simply on the basis of a defining characteristic like someone's sex or even hair colour. These illusions make a difficult life easier and an easy life enjoyable by simplifying complex issues to something managable, and it's this very same tendency which means that broad-based popular movements only occur on the most important of issues, and usually those which offer a different convenient unreality (the anti-globalisation movement springs to mind).

[DeathmatchTheTitan]

In the USA bring the troops home.Stop sending money to Iraq.If Iraq wants to blow each others heads of,fine with me.Also suport our govermont.And most of all,GET A NEW PRESIDENT!!!!! >:(

I can go on and on but wont.

[Peregrine]

Right, but there's nothing to say that the money you donate is ever actually going to do anything save line that pocket. It doesn't really matter whether you know about it or what you do unless you happen to have your own private army. No government is going to interfere because of politics.

 

So what benefit is it to know?

 

Oh, let me think... how about NOT GIVING THE MONEY AT ALL? If you know your money is just going to line some dictator's pockets, then you can spend it on something useful instead.

 

 

Honestly, you are a moron, and it's not even worth a point-by-point reply. Only the truly stupid take pride in their ignorance and consider it a virtue. Ignorance of the facts, no matter what the facts are, CAN NOT be justified. If the facts are painful, then people can just deal with a little pain.

[cactoblasta]

Oh, let me think... how about NOT GIVING THE MONEY AT ALL? If you know your money is just going to line some dictator's pockets, then you can spend it on something useful instead.

 

Really? What else are you going to do with that 2/5/10 bucks? What could be more personally 'useful' than feeling good about yourself? A kilo of carrots, a coffee or a movie ticket don't give anywhere near as much of a buzz as thinking you're helping starving orphans.

 

Honestly, you are a moron, and it's not even worth a point-by-point reply. Only the truly stupid take pride in their ignorance and consider it a virtue. Ignorance of the facts, no matter what the facts are, CAN NOT be justified. If the facts are painful, then people can just deal with a little pain.

 

So you don't believe in any of the human virtues? Things like honesty, integrity and justice can rarely if ever be found in the world and yet thousands find a kind of happiness in believing they exist. Is that belief worthless because it's not based in fact? Should people have such illusions purposefully shattered simply because they're untrue?

 

From your perspective I suppose there's no room even for white lies, the grease of society and the foundation of many a strongly-held but inaccurate belief. You seem to treasure the illusion that the world would be a better place if everything was based on fact. Do you find it easier to stomache because you know in your heart that this illusion will never be in a position to be proven wrong?

 

From my perspective the shattering of illusions should only be undertaken if there is a very serious need. It shouldn't be something entered into as lightly as you seem to advocate. It certainly shouldn't be done where there's no good reason to do so.

 

For you the purity of unattainable truth burns like a flame, but you should remember that when used indiscriminately fire disfigures and even kills. The truth can do the same.

[Peregrine]

Really? What else are you going to do with that 2/5/10 bucks? What could be more personally 'useful' than feeling good about yourself? A kilo of carrots, a coffee or a movie ticket don't give anywhere near as much of a buzz as thinking you're helping starving orphans.

 

Are you honestly this stupid, or are you just trolling? If you discover that one form of charity isn't working as it should, you donate to another one (assuming you still wish to help others). It's a textbook black and white fallacy to say that because some forms of charity don't work, there is no way to help other people.

 

So you don't believe in any of the human virtues? Things like honesty, integrity and justice can rarely if ever be found in the world and yet thousands find a kind of happiness in believing they exist. Is that belief worthless because it's not based in fact?

 

Yes. Any belief not based on fact is worthless, and should be corrected as quickly as possible.

 

But that's not exactly true... those virtues do exist. Maybe you don't have them, but not everyone is like you.

 

 

Should people have such illusions purposefully shattered simply because they're untrue?

 

Yes. Anyone with flawed beliefs should have them shattered, and I'll happily swing the Crowbar of Shattering Reality +10 at them myself.

 

From my perspective the shattering of illusions should only be undertaken if there is a very serious need. It shouldn't be something entered into as lightly as you seem to advocate. It certainly shouldn't be done where there's no good reason to do so.

 

So we agree then. We should only shatter illusions when there is a serious need. Fortunately, "willful ignorance" counts as a serious need.

 

For you the purity of unattainable truth burns like a flame, but you should remember that when used indiscriminately fire disfigures and even kills. The truth can do the same.

 

Sucks to be them, I guess they shouldn't have picked up those illusions in the first place. But once they get over the "pain", they'll realize that they're much better off not living in some feel-good fantasy world. And if they don't... well, burn them a little harder. I strongly dislike people who are determined to stay ignorant, so I have no sympathy for them.

 

But please, tell me how the truth is going to kill someone.

[cactoblasta]

Are you honestly this stupid, or are you just trolling? If you discover that one form of charity isn't working as it should, you donate to another one (assuming you still wish to help others). It's a textbook black and white fallacy to say that because some forms of charity don't work, there is no way to help other people.

 

I suppose I'm honestly that stupid. I've worked with an NGO overseas. No foreign aid program working in that area operated without paying bribes. Not one. If you wanted to give at all, part of your money would go to paying grease money whether you searched high and low or not. We got the job done, but that doesn't mean the petty officials weren't profiting from it or that we were ever going to make much of a difference. Structural change required more than donations or popular support from our native countries.

 

But that's not exactly true... those virtues do exist. Maybe you don't have them, but not everyone is like you.

 

What's with the personal attacks? You really don't cope well with people who disagree with you do you.

 

Anyway where do these virtues exist so perfectly as they are believed to exist? Where can I find these paragons of honesty, integrity and justice? If anything I've found in my field that those with the biggest reputation for honesty and integrity have those reputations more because they can bury their past effectively than anything else.

 

Yes. Anyone with flawed beliefs should have them shattered, and I'll happily swing the Crowbar of Shattering Reality +10 at them myself.

 

I hope you were wearing a cape when you wrote that. It's a great line - I can just see you, standing on the roof of a building outlined by the setting sun, raising your crowbar of uberness to the sky and shouting, "Anyone with flawed beliefs shall have them shattered!"

 

More seriously, that's great. I suppose someone has to go around telling preschoolers there's no Santa Claus.

 

Sucks to be them, I guess they shouldn't have picked up those illusions in the first place. But once they get over the "pain", they'll realize that they're much better off not living in some feel-good fantasy world. And if they don't... well, burn them a little harder. I strongly dislike people who are determined to stay ignorant, so I have no sympathy for them.

 

Why are they better off? Do they gain satisfaction from the pain, or is it just satisfaction from knowing more than other people?

 

The truth only helps you if you need it. Ask any politician about that and they'll tell you. That's why presidents and PMs don't get informed on black operations unless they're a success. Illusions are better than knowing an inconvenient truth.

[Peregrine]

I suppose I'm honestly that stupid. I've worked with an NGO overseas. No foreign aid program working in that area operated without paying bribes. Not one. If you wanted to give at all, part of your money would go to paying grease money whether you searched high and low or not. We got the job done, but that doesn't mean the petty officials weren't profiting from it or that we were ever going to make much of a difference. Structural change required more than donations or popular support from our native countries.

 

Simple two-step solution:

 

1) Shoot official instead of paying bribe. Total cost: $100 for gun, $.01 for bullet.

 

2) Repeat step 1 until you either run out of officials, or they begin to cooperate without bribes.

 

 

But really, did you ever stop to think that maybe that just means the solution is to fix our own country's problems instead?

 

 

 

What's with the personal attacks? You really don't cope well with people who disagree with you do you.

 

Correction, I "don't cope well" with stupid people. "Stupid people" and "people who disagree with Peregrine" just happen to be two groups with a huge overlap.

 

Anyway where do these virtues exist so perfectly as they are believed to exist? Where can I find these paragons of honesty, integrity and justice? If anything I've found in my field that those with the biggest reputation for honesty and integrity have those reputations more because they can bury their past effectively than anything else.

 

Again with the black and white fallacies. Are you honestly too stupid to understand the difference between "the virtues exist" and "there are many people who are paragons of those virtues, without any flaws"?

 

More seriously, that's great. I suppose someone has to go around telling preschoolers there's no Santa Claus.

 

So you're saying you'd rather keep a preschool level of maturity and intelligence, where you remain ignorant rather than having to face unpleasant facts?

 

Why are they better off? Do they gain satisfaction from the pain, or is it just satisfaction from knowing more than other people?

 

Because any halfway intelligent person considers knowledge a better state than ignorance. If I'm wrong about something, I'd much rather be told I'm wrong than stay ignorant "for my own good". Even if the truth is less pleasant, I want to know.

 

The truth only helps you if you need it. Ask any politician about that and they'll tell you. That's why presidents and PMs don't get informed on black operations unless they're a success. Illusions are better than knowing an inconvenient truth.

 

Well, now that's such a compelling argument... members of a profession known for dishonesty prefer to keep people ignorant of the truth. I swear, I'm really surprised.