What I Think And What You Think

[Malchik]

Sadly very little happens in this world without 'bribery'. This is not necessarily financial. It can be favours, working extra hard, covering up, looking the other way, arse-licking etc. To confine bribery to the passing over of money is much too limiting. And I do not believe that any one of us has not done one of those at least once in our lives for our own benefit. Some people would regard it as shrewd business sense.

 

The same goes for hiding mistakes and failures. It's what everyone tries to do if they can. At least in Europe the media is relatively free of political control so most political lash-ups are dragged into the glare of publicity. The USA, as with most undemocratic countries, is less lucky. Very few reported scandals there are not 'permitted' to be exposed by the media. Occasionally something does get through so there is hope if the US populace really cares one way or the other.

[cactoblasta]

Peregrine - I'm only going to address two of your points because time's a little limited at the moment. Please accept my most humble apologies.

 

Because any halfway intelligent person considers knowledge a better state than ignorance. If I'm wrong about something, I'd much rather be told I'm wrong than stay ignorant "for my own good". Even if the truth is less pleasant, I want to know.

 

As I mentioned before I cherish my ignorance of an abundance of matters. Either I'm an idiot or there's a problem with your argument.

 

Perhaps the key to understanding my position is that I believe that everyone chooses their topics of ignorance, and perhaps that's what you don't understand. I am in favour of people dispelling whatever personal illusions they hold. I am not in favour of forcing people to see the light. No one should be dragged kicking and screaming anywhere, least of all into some imagined age of truth and enlightenment. The truth can be found by anyone who has the desire. Most don't want to though. Why should they be forced?

 

That ignorance is charming, not something to be feared. I really value those moments when I run into someone utterly lacking in knowledge about something. They always have the most fascinatingly ill-informed opinions. If they're not hurting anyone, why should we get rid of this fantastic source of entertainment?

 

Well, now that's such a compelling argument... members of a profession known for dishonesty prefer to keep people ignorant of the truth. I swear, I'm really surprised.

 

Well, ordinary people do let them. Surely that tells you something key to human nature - people just don't want to know. If they did, they would try to find out, and you can see this happening with a number of modern issues, from the War in Iraq to the recently school closures in my hometown. What the people don't want to know, they don't bother to investigate.

 

Sure, we need a few folks like yourself in the media who burn with the need to uncover truths and then write about them, but I don't see why it's so critical to popularise the movement. I think that in general we should let people decide for themselves what illusions they should and shouldn't have.

[karkarinus]

1.

Only the truly stupid take pride in their ignorance and consider it a virtue. Ignorance of the facts, no matter what the facts are, CAN NOT be justified. If the facts are painful, then people can just deal with a little pain.

 

 

 

My point exactly. Imagine your Missus is knocking off some other bloke. Is it really preferable to come home every night after work, kiss her and then go to bed with her under the blissfully ignorant impression that all is just dandy, or to cry your heart out for a few months and then get the hell on with your life without her, and look for someone worthy of your love? Better to "....watch the things you gave your life to broken, and stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools...." than to spend the rest of your days being laughed at behind your back.

 

 

 

2.

As I mentioned before I cherish my ignorance of an abundance of matters. Either I'm an idiot or there's a problem with your argument.

 

 

 

......................... :rolleyes:

 

 

3.

Perhaps the key to understanding my position is that I believe that everyone chooses their topics of ignorance, and perhaps that's what you don't understand. I am in favour of people dispelling whatever personal illusions they hold. I am not in favour of forcing people to see the light. No one should be dragged kicking and screaming anywhere, least of all into some imagined age of truth and enlightenment. The truth can be found by anyone who has the desire. Most don't want to though. Why should they be forced?

 

 

 

I choose the topics of my own ignorance, and therefore do not go out of my way to delve further into them, but we all have the RIGHT to know the truth. And those holding it have the obligation to disclose it. How we choose to react to it is up to us.

 

 

 

4.

That ignorance is charming, not something to be feared. I really value those moments when I run into someone utterly lacking in knowledge about something. They always have the most fascinatingly ill-informed opinions. If they're not hurting anyone, why should we get rid of this fantastic source of entertainment?

 

So now it's funny that somebody doesn't know what's really going on? Tell that to your mate whose Missus is being knobbed by some guy at work. Tell it to the starving millions in 3rd World countries, while that general is pocketting the proceeds from the last Live Aid concert or Red Nose Day. Tell it to Bob Geldof or Lenny Henry. Tell the Argentinians who sold up all their property there to move to Spain, only to find out that the economically afflicted government had siezed their entire bank account to "help pay off the national deficit" - a travesty in itself - when really it had gone straight into twenty-odd functionaries' friggin' pockets! Ha-bloody-ha! That just hilarious!

 

 

 

5.

Well, ordinary people do let them. Surely that tells you something key to human nature - people just don't want to know. If they did, they would try to find out, and you can see this happening with a number of modern issues, from the War in Iraq to the recently school closures in my hometown. What the people don't want to know, they don't bother to investigate.

.

 

 

 

See 3. above.

 

 

Sure, we need a few folks like yourself in the media who burn with the need to uncover truths and then write about them, but I don't see why it's so critical to popularise the movement. I think that in general we should let people decide for themselves what illusions they should and shouldn't have.

 

 

 

See 3. above.

[Nappa990]

The one thing I'm sick of is all this crap about how "Americans are brainwashed losers" and "Americans can't think for themselves" and "Americans are evil". BS, I hear more people in my school fantasizing about killing the president than I hear anything contrary to that. Most Americans are getting fed up with him anyhow. So there go the first two statements; as for the third, I guess that's your perspective. I know Europeans think we're evil even as they teeter on the edge of a race crisis with the Muslims, and Middle Easterners like to talk a good game about "Evil American Invaders" even while they let these stupid Imams run around free to spout their racist ideology.

So, no. Everybody's sinning, stop acting like you're the pure clean nice ones

[karkarinus]

The one thing I'm sick of is all this crap about how "Americans are brainwashed losers" and "Americans can't think for themselves" and "Americans are evil". BS, I hear more people in my school fantasizing about killing the president than I hear anything contrary to that. Most Americans are getting fed up with him anyhow. So there go the first two statements; as for the third, I guess that's your perspective. I know Europeans think we're evil even as they teeter on the edge of a race crisis with the Muslims, and Middle Easterners like to talk a good game about "Evil American Invaders" even while they let these stupid Imams run around free to spout their racist ideology.

So, no. Everybody's sinning, stop acting like you're the pure clean nice ones

 

 

 

Sorry, I'm at a loss here. Who are you addressing with this post? :huh:

[Nappa990]

The one thing I'm sick of is all this crap about how "Americans are brainwashed losers" and "Americans can't think for themselves" and "Americans are evil". BS, I hear more people in my school fantasizing about killing the president than I hear anything contrary to that. Most Americans are getting fed up with him anyhow. So there go the first two statements; as for the third, I guess that's your perspective. I know Europeans think we're evil even as they teeter on the edge of a race crisis with the Muslims, and Middle Easterners like to talk a good game about "Evil American Invaders" even while they let these stupid Imams run around free to spout their racist ideology.

So, no. Everybody's sinning, stop acting like you're the pure clean nice ones

 

 

 

Sorry, I'm at a loss here. Who are you addressing with this post? :huh:

 

what someone said earlier about the American public being brainwashed by the government.

[cactoblasta]

I choose the topics of my own ignorance, and therefore do not go out of my way to delve further into them, but we all have the RIGHT to know the truth. And those holding it have the obligation to disclose it. How we choose to react to it is up to us.

 

I can agree with most of that. I don't think people have any responsibility to disclose a truth - there's been plenty of times in history where telling the truth could get you killed, like admitting to being gay in Nazi Germany - but otherwise I agree with what you said.

 

My point exactly. Imagine your Missus is knocking off some other bloke. Is it really preferable to come home every night after work, kiss her and then go to bed with her under the blissfully ignorant impression that all is just dandy, or to cry your heart out for a few months and then get the hell on with your life without her, and look for someone worthy of your love? Better to "....watch the things you gave your life to broken, and stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools...." than to spend the rest of your days being laughed at behind your back.

 

I don't know how that's relevant but okay. Some degree of honesty in a relationship is important to me. I dislike being ignorant about that sort of thing. But that doesn't mean everyone feels the same way as I do. Others might prefer to be a cuckold if it means a blissful existence. There's plenty of strange types in this world; I don't presume to speak for them.

 

So now it's funny that somebody doesn't know what's really going on? Tell that to your mate whose Missus is being knobbed by some guy at work. Tell it to the starving millions in 3rd World countries, while that general is pocketting the proceeds from the last Live Aid concert or Red Nose Day. Tell it to Bob Geldof or Lenny Henry. Tell the Argentinians who sold up all their property there to move to Spain, only to find out that the economically afflicted government had siezed their entire bank account to "help pay off the national deficit" - a travesty in itself - when really it had gone straight into twenty-odd functionaries' friggin' pockets! Ha-bloody-ha! That just hilarious!

 

What difference would it make though if the average westerner knew or not? I can tell you now everyone in a position of power is fully aware of the injustices of the world. They usually just choose not to do anything about them.

 

Why would it benefit the average person to be aware of such injustice? It didn't help the hippies. I kind of like the idea that there are people out there in the world who don't think it's a horrible place. Who think, for example, that the US really is a land of opportunity. Obviously you disagree, but frankly I don't see why the problems of the world should weigh in the minds of everyone. I seriously doubt it would make life any easier for anyone, least of all those starving millions you dismiss as ignorant of their own situation.

[Peregrine]

Peregrine - I'm only going to address two of your points because time's a little limited at the moment. Please accept my most humble apologies.

 

And naturally you'll pick the ones where I didn't point out your obvious fallacies... concession accepted on those, of course.

 

As I mentioned before I cherish my ignorance of an abundance of matters. Either I'm an idiot or there's a problem with your argument.

 

Well, I guess we agree. You're an idiot, congratulations for realizing that.

 

Perhaps the key to understanding my position is that I believe that everyone chooses their topics of ignorance, and perhaps that's what you don't understand. I am in favour of people dispelling whatever personal illusions they hold. I am not in favour of forcing people to see the light. No one should be dragged kicking and screaming anywhere, least of all into some imagined age of truth and enlightenment. The truth can be found by anyone who has the desire. Most don't want to though. Why should they be forced?

 

Are you honestly so stupid that you can't see how ignorant people harm society?

 

That ignorance is charming, not something to be feared. I really value those moments when I run into someone utterly lacking in knowledge about something. They always have the most fascinatingly ill-informed opinions. If they're not hurting anyone, why should we get rid of this fantastic source of entertainment?

 

Yeah, really charming when you consider that these ignorant people vote for our leaders... I'm really laughing at the thought of some moron with no knowledge of the facts getting to decide how my country is run.

 

 

 

I don't know why I even bother replying to you. You're just a complete moron, deserving of nothing but contempt from me. Ignorance is NOT a virtue to be proud of, it's flaw that should be corrected. I can't even imagine how pathetic your life must be, that you would actually want to be part of the herd of mindless sheep in society. Or that you could throw away all responsibility for yourself, all of your basic dignity, in exchange for peaceful ignorance. You disgust me.

 

But maybe I judge your intelligence too harshly. Maybe you're not stupid after all. Maybe you're just evil and manipulative, and want to keep people ignorant so you can abuse them?

 

 

 

 

========================================

The same goes for hiding mistakes and failures. It's what everyone tries to do if they can. At least in Europe the media is relatively free of political control so most political lash-ups are dragged into the glare of publicity. The USA, as with most undemocratic countries, is less lucky. Very few reported scandals there are not 'permitted' to be exposed by the media. Occasionally something does get through so there is hope if the US populace really cares one way or the other.

 

I know "omg america sux!!!!! bush = monkey!!!!!" posts are popular right now, but could you please explain:

 

1) How the US is "undemocratic".

 

and

 

2) Where you get the idea that the US media is controlled by the government.

 

 

 

I don't know where you get your ideas about the US media, but I see reports of scandals all the time here. The only problem is most people are too stupid to care, they're more concerned with which empty-headed celebrity is having a baby than what abuses their government is guilty of. And the few who might care (like me) have no money or political power to do anything about it.

[cactoblasta]

And naturally you'll pick the ones where I didn't point out your obvious fallacies... concession accepted on those, of course.

 

I've got time now. I thought your suggestions of murder was a joke though...

 

Anyway. Yes, I suppose I could have turned to murder, but the police does tend to frown on that sort of behaviour. As for the other point of yours I didn't answer, I don't believe that you can prove the existence of integrity without producing someone who personifies it. Otherwise it's just a popular illusion used to cover a wide array of behaviours, some of which may actually lack integrity. Oh, and it's a shame you suffer from brilliance. It must be hard making friends.

 

Well, I guess we agree. You're an idiot, congratulations for realizing that.

 

I love semantics. You can make someone say practically anything.

 

Are you honestly so stupid that you can't see how ignorant people harm society?

 

Yes. Ignorance is only a danger when it's tied to power. Very few modern political and societal systems tolerate ignorance in those holding a position of power. Ergo, ignorance is not a problem because those in power are not ignorant. Where they are they quickly meet their political end.

 

Yeah, really charming when you consider that these ignorant people vote for our leaders... I'm really laughing at the thought of some moron with no knowledge of the facts getting to decide how my country is run.

 

Do you really think the pool of candidates would be enormous and significantly different were it not for the public's ignorance and lack and interest in politics? If you're really concerned perhaps you should try and push for an end to the open franchise, maybe replace it with a system which requires knowledge. Put your voice where you mouth is so to speak.

 

Most countries have already reached a stage where the main contenders for political power have roughly similar policy platforms. The only real differences in candidates can often be boiled down to physical characteristics and perhaps one or two pet issues.

 

I don't know why I even bother replying to you. You're just a complete moron, deserving of nothing but contempt from me. Ignorance is NOT a virtue to be proud of, it's flaw that should be corrected. I can't even imagine how pathetic your life must be, that you would actually want to be part of the herd of mindless sheep in society. Or that you could throw away all responsibility for yourself, all of your basic dignity, in exchange for peaceful ignorance. You disgust me.

 

I never said I wanted to be ignorant of everything. As I said before, I am not in favour of forcing people to see the light. I dislike the ridiculous modern notion that we should go around making people think in a way we consider correct (even if by some chance we happen to be right). Enlightenment can only come from an individual. You can't impose it on someone else without an excessive amount of suffering.

 

Oh, and I know why you reply. Because you are Crushing Reality Man, and Metropolis must be saved from Ignorant Beliefs.

 

But maybe I judge your intelligence too harshly. Maybe you're not stupid after all. Maybe you're just evil and manipulative, and want to keep people ignorant so you can abuse them?

 

I work in PR. Of course I know a little about manipulation. But that doesn't mean I want everyone to be ignorant - as propaganda theory shows, it's far easier to sway the thoughts of the educated than the uneducated. They are less suspicious of things they don't understand.

 

Less flippantly though I despair of the belief that people must be forced to do things, forced to think things, forced to reject certain ideas. Nothing is more opposed to freedom than the shattering of illusions. People should have the right to think what they like, no matter how ignorant they are. To do otherwise is to tolerate the worst kind of tyranny - a tyranny of the mind.

[karkarinus]

I can agree with most of that. I don't think people have any responsibility to disclose a truth - there's been plenty of times in history where telling the truth could get you killed, like admitting to being gay in Nazi Germany - but otherwise I agree with what you said.

 

I mean that those who discover the truth have a responsibility to disclose it to those affected by it.

 

 

 

What difference would it make though if the average westerner knew or not? I can tell you now everyone in a position of power is fully aware of the injustices of the world. They usually just choose not to do anything about them. Why would it benefit the average person to be aware of such injustice? It didn't help the hippies. I kind of like the idea that there are people out there in the world who don't think it's a horrible place. Who think, for example, that the US really is a land of opportunity. Obviously you disagree, but frankly I don't see why the problems of the world should weigh in the minds of everyone. I seriously doubt it would make life any easier for anyone, least of all those starving millions you dismiss as ignorant of their own situation.

 

 

 

You have quite obviously misunderstood everything I have said. I am not saying that the average Westerner should know - I am saying that the Argentinians should know if their government is about to rob them blind. I am saying that the starving millions should know that their dictator is pocketting the aid from overseas. I am saying that you should know if your other half is shacked up with your so-called best mate. I personally couldn't give a damn because it doesn't affect me, but you have the right to know.

 

 

 

I don't know how that's relevant but okay. Some degree of honesty in a relationship is important to me. I dislike being ignorant about that sort of thing. But that doesn't mean everyone feels the same way as I do. Others might prefer to be a cuckold if it means a blissful existence. There's plenty of strange types in this world; I don't presume to speak for them.

 

It was metaphorical example of a painful truth that affects someone you know, and you have the obligation to tell him. Sure, you're not going to tell me about it, because it's got nothing to do with me.

 

Less flippantly though I despair of the belief that people must be forced to do things, forced to think things, forced to reject certain ideas. Nothing is more opposed to freedom than the shattering of illusions. People should have the right to think what they like, no matter how ignorant they are. To do otherwise is to tolerate the worst kind of tyranny - a tyranny of the mind.

 

Nothing is more......? You really do talk some crap, don't you? I'm not going to get into Peregrinesque 'you are a moron' type comments, but your arguments fall under their own weight. Tyranny of the mind? Like the tyranny of the mind that you would rather have people subjected to? To make them carry on believing in their false illusions? True freedom is to know the facts pertinent to one's own situation and be free to act or react to them at will, or to turn a blind eye and carry on as before. To occlude the truth from them is mind tyranny in itself.

 

 

 

Ignorance is only a danger when it's tied to power.

Exactly. Our ignorance of those in power is a danger to all society.

 

Ergo, ignorance is not a problem because those in power are not ignorant.

 

I'm not even going to bother wasting my time answering that.

 

In summary, everything that you have said to date is mere self-contradiction or utter codswallop. Rarely do I find myself unable to see another's side of the story, but in you I have found the exception to the rule.Your statements are the epitome of small-mindedness and a lack of desire to make the world a better place.