Blair's Education "reform" Bill

[loveme4whoiam]

threatening as a fart in the wind. ;)

 

:ohmy: This is the greatest threat to education that there has ever been! Just going by the "entitlements" of Key Stage 4 that the Bill mentions, they would have to teach certain subjects. But it does not say how they should be taught! Education is supposed to be objective, teaching children how to live in the real world, not brainwash them with the dogma of a particular company or group!

 

So what? Private schools which base their principles upon religion have been in existence for as long as I can remember. Why do you feel so threatened by this? Creationism is taught as a fact in religious homes and the church anyway.

 

I don't exactly like them either!

 

Something which I haven't mentioned yet but you might have read in the news, creationism is going to be taught alongside science in science classes anyway. There was recently a change in the Curriculum, although I'm not sure when it comes into effect, that states that creationism must now be taught alongside science as fact, when previously it had been confined to religious education lessons. Critics have said that this elevates creationism to the same level as scientific fact, and they'd be right! Without going into the details of creationism, it is a religious theory with no scientific basis, so why should it be taught it science lessons?!

I just do not want the argument to become clouded over by the mention of religion and creationism, that is not the true threat. Just an easy target.

 

Indeed, this is not the debate; I just used that as an example of what could and will go wrong with these trust schools. What about the Church of Scientologists, a cult who really do have the money to open up schools. Or the Falun Gong cult, which is openly homophobic in it's attitudes? Or the Baptist church in the US that runs GodHatesFags.com? You want these people teaching children??

[Stampede]

:ohmy: This is the greatest threat to education that there has ever been! Just going by the "entitlements" of Key Stage 4 that the Bill mentions, they would have to teach certain subjects. But it does not say how they should be taught! Education is supposed to be objective, teaching children how to live in the real world, not brainwash them with the dogma of a particular company or group!

 

I agree that standards have to be set. But as far as brainwashing goes, while some fundamentalist groups may be accused of that, define brainwashing in terms of having schools based upon religious principles. Would a child who was brought up in a stable creationist home, then attending a school where he is taught there is no other choice than to embrace evolution be in danger of becoming brainwashed as well? Though this is a difficult factor to discuss here without delving into dangerous territory. I apologise in that I should have made my argument clearer from the beginning in that having a school system that is based upon spiritual beliefs should not be seen as an epitome of evil unless basic standards are neglected. However all arguments involving education and spiritualism sadly (and logically) meet at evolution vs creationism.

 

I don't exactly like them either!

 

Something which I haven't mentioned yet but you might have read in the news, creationism is going to be taught alongside science in science classes anyway. There was recently a change in the Curriculum, although I'm not sure when it comes into effect, that states that creationism must now be taught alongside science as fact, when previously it had been confined to religious education lessons. Critics have said that this elevates creationism to the same level as scientific fact, and they'd be right! Without going into the details of creationism, it is a religious theory with no scientific basis, so why should it be taught it science lessons?!

 

Science and religion are at the best of times, like mixing oil and water. The spiritual and physical world are seperated for a reason. As should be the teachings. While a choice should always be maintained I agree that having the two alongside each other would be a distraction at the very least. However, until science can prove to me that God does not exist, children should not be forced to compromise certain parts of their spiritual upbringing in order to get good grades. I find it hard to believe that the debate about humans evolving from apes should be a factor when applying for a job, unless of course it is the study of evolution. In which case opposing it would be...silly.

 

Indeed, this is not the debate; I just used that as an example of what could and will go wrong with these trust schools. What about the Church of Scientologists, a cult who really do have the money to open up schools. Or the Falun Gong cult, which is openly homophobic in it's attitudes? Or the Baptist church in the US that runs GodHatesFags.com? You want these people teaching children??

 

It is sickos like that which leave a bad taste in everyones mouth. I just implore people not to fall into the trap of boxing all christian groups into one based on the actions of a few severely misguided people. Godhatesfags? I mean come on. True christianity is founded on acceptance and love. It's so much easier to hate and condemn without looking at oneself first. Personally, I would like my children to grow up around those principles instead of the twisted words of a few crazies. (Fundamentalists, not evolutionists...haha :D )

 

But I have already said too much. Apologies. I think as much as I am enjoying this discussion, I am going to step out and monitor from the sidelines. In the hopefully unlikely event of having to close it, I would not want to be accused of doing so merely to end opposing arguments.

[Malchik]

It is already possible to take children from school and educate them at home (provided you can establish they have adequate teachers). People who feel really strongly about various matters will presumably do so within this existing legitimate framework.

[loveme4whoiam]

having a school system that is based upon spiritual beliefs should not be seen as an epitome of evil unless basic standards are neglected.

 

Basic standards like having an unbiased education, free from the taint of any one politicial, religious, commerical, or any other group's viewpoint? Not that I am suggesting that students always receive this at the moment, but it's a damn sight more equal than it will become.

 

I just implore people not to fall into the trap of boxing all christian groups into one based on the actions of a few severely misguided people.

 

Fair enough - I'll accept that some religious groups can have a positive effect on its members. But I'll not go start down that road since religious debates are banned here, and for good reason. This is not the debate.

 

Fair enough Stampede, but I can't understand why you'd want to take part in this debate. I'm not objecting to this Bill simply because it allows for religious influences to become so much stronger in education - its a reason, but certainly not the full one. Please feel free to jump in at any time with anything pertinent - if anyone can support this Bill in good faith I want to debate with them, since it'll help when I HAVE to debate it.

 

It is already possible to take children from school and educate them at home (provided you can establish they have adequate teachers). People who feel really strongly about various matters will presumably do so within this existing legitimate framework.

 

Indeed - I see this course of action becoming increasingly popular once these schools start to open. But parents shouldn't have to take their children out of school in order for them to get a half-way decent education - half of school's is the social aspect; learning how to interact with other people. Home schooling doesn't do that as far as I can see, although I do understand why some people do it.

 

However, let's say a group of parents keep their children out of school because they are Neo-Nazis and disagree with how Nazi Germany is taught. Under this new rule these people could open up a school, and teach these ideals to a much larger group of children. And it's all well and good saying that parents would have a variety of schools to pick from, but often that is not the case - I know many people who went to the school they are it due to geographical convienience.

[ThetaOrionis01]

My opinion is that schools should teach children to think, not what to think.

 

I'm rather uncomfortable with the thought that anyone with an agenda should be able to start a school...

[VaanicOne]

I read various newspapers today, and I think the Guardian had an article about the Archbishop of Canterbury saying how he did not like the idea of creationism being taught in schools at all, in fact, he is utterly opposed to it. Perhaps he can help the situation.

 

But on the subject of education reforms, the thing that worried me the most was the fact that Teachers can now discipline pupils out of school grounds, and give detentions on weekends.

 

On the original subject, I'm confident that if a school was teaching kids to hate certain ethinic minorities, or even anything of the sort, then someone would surely notice, and report it to the authorities.

[loveme4whoiam]

I read various newspapers today, and I think the Guardian had an article about the Archbishop of Canterbury saying how he did not like the idea of creationism being taught in schools at all, in fact, he is utterly opposed to it. Perhaps he can help the situation.

 

The Archbishop of Canterbury being progressive :ohmy: Wow... Perhaps I should rethink my views on the bearded conservative.

 

But on the subject of education reforms, the thing that worried me the most was the fact that Teachers can now discipline pupils out of school grounds, and give detentions on weekends.

 

Now this I don't mind one bit, although I imagine it'll be hard to implement. Indeed, I doubt any teachers will follow this piece of legislation - teachers just don't want the hassle.

 

On the original subject, I'm confident that if a school was teaching kids to hate certain ethinic minorities, or even anything of the sort, then someone would surely notice, and report it to the authorities.

 

Well that's the thing. Would they report it, and even if they did would anything be done about it? The two main leaders of the BNP were let of of 12 charges of inciting racial hatred a month or two ago - do you really think the government will crack down on their new pet project?