Is America becoming Socialist ?

[ginnyfizz]

Please, could you hold Europe out of this. I live here, I have a good live, and I don´t know "what is going on there", and it´s not because I´m brainwashed by commies.

 

No I won't, because as a response from an American shows, they do not like the way things are hanging in Europe. The socialist good life always comes at a price...that governments usually find they cannot afford. Denmark, although a very fine country and people to be sure, is not a good example due to the relatively small scale of it.

 

And don't let's split hairs about the difference between socialism and communism, because at the end of the day they have precisely the same effects as one another. As Aurelius put it, the lot of the poor and underprivileged is not in fact improved, and they become clients of the state permanently. Both lower people rather than raise them, and suppress enterprise.

[evilneko]

And where exactly is the fiscal responsibility on the right? Where has it been, and where is it now?

 

I've seen more of that from the left in the past year than I have from the right in ten.

[brokenergy]

First off there have been several Americans on this thread that like socialistic policies such as Species and Grannywils or at least socially liberal policies and find that they are quite acceptable. But as one of the American conservative posters on this thread let me refute the concept that we on the right are still in a cold war mentality, the cold war is over ...they lost, we won... end of story.

 

The conservatives in America do not like Obama for many reasons most are related to his fiscally frivolous spending policies which are the corner stone of liberal democratic governments. Obama is not a communist or is perceived as one by the right, but he would like to steer the federal government in a decidedly more socialistic direction which most on the conservative end of the spectrum find an anathema. I know that his holiness Obama is viewed abroad with great acclaim abroad, but here in the US his polling numbers have been dropping steadily, which is hardly a surprise after the last two years. Its is his ineffective governing, waffling foreign policy and lack of fulfilling his campaign promises that are at the root of this, not some perception that he is some sort of closet communist.

 

Is it so hard to conceptualize that we on the right understand what socialism is and do not want it? I Am sure that both species and grannywils will put up a spirited defense of socialism as a viable concept and that is their prerogative just as it is mine to defeat the concept at the upcoming mid term elections.

As an American who has lived abroad and viewed socialistic governments in action first hand, I see it as a fiscally bankrupt concept that neither elevates the underclasses or promotes their interest effectively, all it does do is enable a permanent underclass that have no motivation to get off the dole and become clients of the government on a perpetuating basis. We spent an inordinate amount of time attempting to reform the Welfare System and I personally do not want to see it revised and put forth with new clothes so we have to do this again.[/color]

 

I'm generalizing here Aurielius, I'm sorry if I meant offense. From a foreigners perspective, many Americans look and sound the same but you live in America and you and other Americans here know more about it's politics more than I. I have never said that Obama is some holy messiah going to save the world, in fact there are several things I can critique about his presidency and I was probably the one of the only person in my modern history that didn't like both sides of politics during the election. Everyone was going for Obama but I was skeptical that real change will happen (I was right in a way). I just think that some people should be more open about change and be calm even though they live in strife. Anger of policies and a failing economy are fueling discontent and a backlash from the Democrats but is it going to end up with the Democrats to lose control of both houses that remains to be seen.

[ginnyfizz]

And where exactly is the fiscal responsibility on the right? Where has it been, and where is it now?

 

I've seen more of that from the left in the past year than I have from the right in ten.

 

Well, I am speaking from the point of view of living in a country that just came out of thirteen years of Socialist misrule and that is now bankrupt. In 1997, from a Conservative right wing government, who had shown fiscal responsibility, the Labour Party inherited an economy in good shape, and proceeded to make themselves look like Lord and Lady Bountifuls by spending the darned lot. Bloating the public sector to keep themselves in power, by creating client voters. And back to the case of the USA, I would not rule out Obama doing precisely the same, if he gets a chance. At the moment he is still in the ingratiating himself stage, just like Tony BlahBlah did.

[MetalDragon]

Obama's policies are ineffective, the "jobs" he creates are all government jobs, and in some cases will temporarily hire someone, get rid of them, then hire them again, and call that two jobs made.

 

Also, most everything that has been done about the economy is simply an inflation of the problem, the bailout especially. These banks and other corporations will just continue in the practices that led to this, and then they will fail again, either needing more bailout money, or collapsing the economy worse than they would have to begin with.

 

Eventually we WILL have to face a depression, we cannot keep postponing the inevitable through socialist tactics. And at the end we will be stronger, our economy will be reforged in the fires of it's previous failure. People will learn to take better care of their money, people will learn important lessons in the hardships. We have done it before, we can do it again.

 

Just because times are hard does not mean we should give up on freedom and liberty, and turn to the so called "security" of slaves in a socialist state, slaves to our neighbors and government, who have no need to worry, just work under the whip of the system, it's robbery of our rights and our souls.

 

I think that rational heads will stop any socialist movement here, and if things get bad enough, we will fight for our freedom, just like we did so long ago. If we do not, then we no longer have the right to call ourselves Americans, either way America will never be socialist.

[evilneko]

And where exactly is the fiscal responsibility on the right? Where has it been, and where is it now?

 

I've seen more of that from the left in the past year than I have from the right in ten.

 

Well, I am speaking from the point of view of living in a country that just came out of thirteen years of Socialist misrule and that is now bankrupt. In 1997, from a Conservative right wing government, who had shown fiscal responsibility, the Labour Party inherited an economy in good shape, and proceeded to make themselves look like Lord and Lady Bountifuls by spending the darned lot. Bloating the public sector to keep themselves in power, by creating client voters. And back to the case of the USA, I would not rule out Obama doing precisely the same, if he gets a chance. At the moment he is still in the ingratiating himself stage, just like Tony BlahBlah did.

 

Every politician wants "client voters" who will vote for them, or at least their party, no matter what. What's new about that? :rolleyes:

 

Let's not compare apples and oranges though: over here, the left has inherited an already-failing economy and is working toward fixing it, meanwhile the right is simultaneously trying to block the Dems' efforts and pushing for policies that will drive the economy even further into the gutter.

[MetalDragon]

Tell me Neko, how will the left wing's policies help our economy? And how will the right wing's policies drive it into the guter? I see it as the other way around.

[evilneko]

Making it easier for small businesses to get loans comes to mind. As for Republicans trying to drive our economy further into the ground, look no further than their efforts to extend the Bush-era tax cuts for the rich.

[ginnyfizz]

It rather depends what you mean by tax cuts for the rich. I think that is unlikely to drive any economy into the ground. What you term as "The rich" are often the employers, wealth creators, entrepreneurs who you need to keep the economy ticking. Our experience shows that squeezing the rich makes them take their business elsewhere.

[evilneko]

It rather depends what you mean by tax cuts for the rich. I think that is unlikely to drive any economy into the ground. What you term as "The rich" are often the employers, wealth creators, entrepreneurs who you need to keep the economy ticking. Our experience shows that squeezing the rich makes them take their business elsewhere.

 

I figured someone would bring that up. Letting the Bush tax cuts expire--required, since there was no way to pay for them, and that is the truly important part of the problem--isn't exactly squeezing them. Not only that, they haven't worked anyway. At least it seems that finally, some Republicans are getting the memo: Bush-era economic policy is the problem, not the solution. A few, finally, are starting to back down.