Are we living in a Simulation?

[Mr Ham]

Our computing capabilities are increasing exponentially (as highlighted by Moore's Law). If this were a simulation, the framework for the simulation would also have to increase at a greater exponential rate. Regardless of how great a head-start the framework has, there will be a convergence between the two exponential functions. So what then?

[Keanumoreira]

Actually I have heard a good bit on this topic recently. There was a show on the Science Channel here in the U.S. called Through the Wormhole which discussed various topics from Black Holes to Is there a God..which is where this was introduced. I forget the name of the scientist....he was on the show...not a quack as this is a pretty serious program. He basically said that he thought there was a pretty fair chance that life was a simulation based on higher level programming and how some states of particle in quantum mechanics behave. With the exponential growth of computing power (which he also discussed) and humans ability to make programing he reasoned it was just as possible as anything else that we were indeed...a programed simulation.

 

Just look in my lifetime, I was born in 1971 and I clearly remember playing Pong. Video games were like..WOW then and now there are HOLY SHITTAKE MUSHROOMS!. I remember downloading programs from a cassette tape player and the beginning internet being the one with the phone handle on the equipment. Now look at the internet and video games like the ones we play here...or some other advanced one like the Sims or like things.

 

Now I am not saying I agree or not here folks...I am playing devil's advocate.....but if the rate of computer technology is growing at this exponential rate...gaining speed...then its possible "simulations" and their AI can become very..real. I mean...philosophically speaking...what is life does come into question as Vagrant says. So if you are interested I would maybe go on the Science Channel online and check out the shows. It will lead you to other things and ideas I am sure. Keep an open mind..we may not find we are a simulation but thinking about these things could lead to some amazing possibilities. Even if we are simulations...personally I don't think it takes anything away from what I feel about myself or the universe. Though if the Almighty Programmers can hear me, I have some design flaws I'd like to discuss. :)

 

That's where I got the inspiration to write this thread. I love that Morgan Freeman is the narrator, he just saids it with so much power and sophistication. :laugh:

The part with the helmet that is claimed to "Help you see God" was a little strange.

[Keanumoreira]

If we are... The system running it all would have to be far more complex than the thing being simulated. Think about the networking, the physics engine, the rendering, the loading, all the environmental stuff... Both on this planet as well of that being simulated on other places just for the sake of maintaining an illusion. Even if 40% of it is all in handling our perceptions, 40% is being handled by our local wetware, there's still that other 20% which has to be both persistent and consistent. The universe is just too vast to be simulated, and quite frankly, any force which might be able to even come close would probably be fully capable of just building a planet somewhere that did the same sorts of things without all of that active data handling in a central source. And that leads back on an older debate, and touches on a few other themes which have all been looked at before.

 

So essentially, it all depends on what you consider a simulation in being, and what you believe the purpose of that simulation is. But, depending on how you answer, it can have religious implications... Which makes it all an even bigger ball of wax.

 

Even if wrong, it's probably best to just assume that this is not a simulation, that the life and world you are living now is all there is and ever will be, or at the very least, that's what the ones running the show want you to believe.

 

I agree with you Vagrant0, it's just to complicated to carry out.

 

Anybody every heard of a terrabyte, a system of storage larger than that of a gigobyte (If that's how you spell it)? Well, you would have to fill the entire empire state building full of terrabytes to equal the amount of memory needed to store on a computer that equals that of the human body. That's how complicated we as an individual are. It could be possible, you never know, but to achieve such a feat would take so long that it's not likely it would be completed.

[monkybuttface]

Ok, one I dont trust the science channel, or modern science in general, too often conclusions are drawn before evidence, which is not good practice, and theories are held with the same value facts are. If we are indeed a simulation, it would have to be with a system of hardware (if you can call it that) that would either take up an tremendous amount of space, or functions in a way we have not yet discovered, or this world our "creators" exist in does not follow the same rules as the simulation. For all we know we could be a sub par science project. Another possibility is that we are not a simulation but something else entirely, an artificial space containing our universe. I must say, in such things as abstract as the nature of the universe, the existence of God, and things like it, you must throw out the preconceived notions such as time, space, physics, mathematics, and logic. We can not wave off the idea that something is beyond our ability to comprehend, as we can only comprehend things that our senses react to.

[evilneko]

I think I'll have some fun with this now. ;)

 

Ah, but Vagrant, think of the games of today: when you are standing inside Megaton, the rest of the world is null and void! In Simulation Earth (SimEarth??! :laugh:), we are all standing in the same cell, a cell the size of the Earth! Everything outside of Earth is simply LOD. Our space probes? They're in other cells, sending us back images of those cells. We can see where those cells are, but they aren't populated with detail until we peer into them via probe or telescope. :laugh: Given that this simulation already knows all our physical laws, it's quite easy for it to generate content on-the-fly based on what has already been discovered, so we would never notice.

 

And Mr. Ham, what makes you think the hardware running the simulation could not be upgraded? Hot-swapping is quite possible! Particularly when a sizable portion of the population is asleep at any given time. :teehee:

 

Face it, we're SIMS! Sims, in some sweaty alien undergrad's senior thesis! :tongue:

 

too often conclusions are drawn before evidence

Citation needed.

[monkybuttface]

The process by which rocks are dated.

 

Of course they don't make this widely known, but that doesn't make it any less true.

[LHammonds]

there will be a convergence between the two exponential functions. So what then?

Take your pick:

- Armageddon

- Universe divided by zero

- End of Simulation

 

too often conclusions are drawn before evidence

Citation needed.

Is this really necessary? How about the whole thing that science told us for many years that humans evolved from apes. Evolution theory showing that man developed from ape was taught in schools for as long as I can remember. DoH!!! Fossil evidence found that debunks the entire theory. Scientists say "sorry 'bout that"

 

Anyway, back to topic. Who says the computer has to be so advanced that it has to keep up with all the atoms in the universe. As recently mentioned, most everything could be LOD-generated. Nothing outside your field of vision exists until it comes into view....kinda makes the whole question of "does a tree make a sound if it falls in the forest with nobody around to hear it?" seem kinda silly and should really be asking, "does the tree in the forest even exist before I can see or hear it?"

 

Then again, who is to say anybody is actually really being simulated than just YOU. Maybe every interaction you have is with other AI that is just within your field of view. Oooooohhhhh. Hows that for a head trip! Whose to say that this complex universe isn't really being simulated down to the very atom? Maybe each fraction of a second takes a huge amount of "rendering time" but while in the simulation, you never see the discontinuation of time...you see it as if it were continually running.

 

Maybe this isn't even a simulation at all...maybe size and time is utterly relative...like how the life of a fly is measured in days, dogs in years, humans in decades, trees in centuries. Maybe there are universes just like ours inside each atom that is going at an unimaginably fast rate of speed to us but slow to them....maybe we are inside another universes' atom...hopefully not in that universes atomic' super collider.

 

Maybe when the planets align in 2012, it will cause a cosmic event that causes gravitational anomaly that pushes all the planets away from the sun...far enough that our planet would freeze over. Or our little atom/electrons simple stop rotating around the sun and await a reboot before it starts working again. The ultimate General Protection Fault!

 

LHammonds

[evilneko]

:teehee: Tongue firmly in cheek, topic derailing averted. :whistling:

 

What if the simulation were powered by ninjas? :ninja:

[LHammonds]

What if the simulation were powered by ninjas? :ninja:

Well, lets use the Hollywood formula that all ninjas on screen share an over all force of power (meaning 100 ninjas on screen area easily beaten and thrown around because they are weak and share power, but if there is only one ninja on screen, he has all the power and thus can defeat an entire army by himself. So, that means we are talking about maybe a single atom of a ninja...the ultimate source of power (when there is only one ninja atom)

[Vagrant0]

I think I'll have some fun with this now. ;)

 

Ah, but Vagrant, think of the games of today: when you are standing inside Megaton, the rest of the world is null and void! In Simulation Earth (SimEarth??! :laugh:), we are all standing in the same cell, a cell the size of the Earth! Everything outside of Earth is simply LOD. Our space probes? They're in other cells, sending us back images of those cells. We can see where those cells are, but they aren't populated with detail until we peer into them via probe or telescope. :laugh: Given that this simulation already knows all our physical laws, it's quite easy for it to generate content on-the-fly based on what has already been discovered, so we would never notice.

There's one problem with that... Even the best simulated environments cannot compare with the complexity of even the night sky while still allowing for a system that is totally dynamic and constantly changing. There are people who go to space and see it with their own eyes. There are people using Earth based analog telescopes who can tell quite clearly that that bit of light out there is actually out there and is not just a sequined curtain, image file, or other some-such...

 

That and... In order to make it so that everything we see has an infinite resolution, long distance, short distance, magnified from long, magnified from short, you would need to render each sub-atomic component of each and every object as point cloud data in real-time across several billion instances. Again, it would be easier to just use the actual atomic components that exist in reality than it would be to try and simulate it all flawlessly.

 

And when I say flawlessly... I mean flawlessly. Any mistake. Anything which does not adhere to various laws of physics would undoubtedly either raise speculation or throw the entire system off. Being a perfect system, it could not have been crafted by any non-perfect beings (take that as you will) and would instead need to be created by a process of those very laws as a real product. No simulation, no matter how complex could replicate those physics exactly without creating something which, for all intents and purposes, IS a real universe.