Marxist ßastard Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Hmm... I forgot about the ash piles in Tribunal... However, there is a simple argument to counter that... Just because someone is wearing body armor and carrying a weapon doesn't make that person part of any organized military. Because the Dwemer settlements had large groups of rabid Chimer between them, it would be perfectly logical for a messenger, merchant, or someone spreading the "good word" of Kagrenac to wear body armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Nerevar and a few Chimeri warriors break into Red Mountain and plan an attack on Numidium. Trying to act quickly, Kagrenac tries to make his race invincible using the heart, but instead makes the Dwemer simply disappear. Sotha Sil decided to carry on the work of the Dwemer in his Clockwork City afterwards. The Chimeri warriors and Nerevar also had the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur with them after defeating the Dwemer Nerevar intrusted Kagrenec's tools to Dagoth Ur when he was gone. When Nerevar returned he found that Dagoth Ur had experimented with Kagrenecs tools and made himself a god. A fight broke out and Nerevar was killed, but the tribunal somehow got in the possesion of the heart and the tools. They also fell to Lorkhan's heart and established connections to it. Dagoth Ur the must have stolen the heart, hammer and sword, but Vivec held onto the Wraithguard. Dagoth Ur retreated to Red Mountain and the ghostfence was built. Also, Sotha's city is in no way related or of dwemer orgin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Anyone know why Kagrenec was not sucessful but Dagoth Ur and the Tribunal were. Also, how come Yagrum didn't disappear. I think the tools either acted like a disease to the dwemer or quickened the aging process that is why Yagrum still lived. Also since Dagoth Ur and the Tribunal were all dark elves, which have infinite lifespans or close to that the tools must have took a rapid aging affect on Dwemer. Also if you look at the pictures un the Egg of Time or other dwemer books you shall realize that it wasn't Dagoth Ur's idea to build akulhan(spelling). That could also be why the dwemer disappeared. It makes you wonder. If Dagoth Ur was sucessful wouldn't he have disappeared anyways. But Kagrenec was mortal so that could have been another flaw in his plan. Dagoth Ur was immortal. About the armor: it is probably just made from scrapps off dwemer animuculi who were beyond repair, also I bet a dwemer claymore is made of the blades that come out of the sphere centurions when they attack. On a off note anyone know where Daedriec weapons come from. When I got one from the Vassir-Didnant Mine quest the counciler(blanking on the name) said it was of Altermi(of Altmer) make. Does that mean it was made by high elves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marxist ßastard Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 That's er... Wrong. Completely wrong. And illogical at that. If the Tribunal were with Nerevar in the heart chamber, then why did he have to leave in order to discuss the matter with them? If Dagoth Ur had a strict stance on destroying the tools, then why did he have the sudden change of heart? If Dagoth Ur made himself into a god and killed Nerevar, then how did the Tribunal escape? Why didn't Dagoth Ur conquer Morrowind at that instant? How did the Tribunal make themselves into gods if Dagoth ur was still guarding the tools? How did Dagoth Ur steal everything but Wraithguard, and, since you believe that the effects of the heart don't deplete as one goes away from the heart, why? Your explanation of the Battle of Red Mountain is completely and utterly ridiculous. So please. If you're going to attempt to disprove something I've said, at least present a rational explanation, and some evidence. I take this little story that you made up and rationalized over a cup of coffee as a personal insuly. Also, please use proper unctuation when you ask a question. Moody Woman: The Chimeri warriors and Nerevar also had the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur with them after defeating the Dwemer Although Dagoth Ur was with Nerevar, as he was a personal friend of his and the place from which Nerevar recieved the information that started it all, Vivec, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil were on the slopes of the mountain, indicated by the following: The Battle of Red Mountain: Then Nerevar was carried to us where we waited on the slopes of Red Mountain, and he told us all that had transpired under Red Mountain... Moody Woman: When Nerevar returned he found that Dagoth Ur had experimented with Kagrenecs tools and made himself a god. A fight broke out and Nerevar was killed, but the tribunal somehow got in the possesion of the heart and the tools. That Dagoth Ur used the tools on himself immediately afterward is completely contradictory to what really happened. Dagoth Ur was arguing for the destruction of the tools immediately after the Dwemer disappeared. Nerevar came to find him irrational, thinking that only he could be trusted with the tools. Dagoth Ur then escaped as Nerevar and his generals seized the tools and entered his deep slumber with the rest of House Dagoth: The Battle of Red Mountain: So then we went with Nerevar back into Red Mountain and met with Dagoth Ur. Dagoth Ur refused to deliver the tools to us, saying they were dangerous, and we could not touch them. Dagoth Ur seemed to be irrational, insisting that only he could be trusted with the tools, and then we guessed that he had somehow been affected by his handling of the tools, but now I feel sure that he had privately learned the powers of the tools, and had in some confused way decided he must have them for himself. Then Nerevar and our guard resorted to force to secure the tools. Somehow Dagoth Ur and his retainers escaped, but we gained the tools, and delivered them to Sotha Sil for study and safe-keeping. For some years we kept the oaths we swore to Azura with Nerevar, but during that time, in secret, Sotha Sil must have studied the tools and divined their mysteries. And at last he came to us with a vision of a new world of peace, with justice and honor for nobles, and health and prosperity for the commoners, with the Tribunal as immortal patrons and guides. And dedicating ourselves to this vision of a better world, we made a pilgrimage to Red Mountain and transformed ourselves with the power of Kagrenac's tools. Moody Woman: ...Sotha's city is in no way related or of dwemer orgin. Sotha Sil continued the work of Kagrenac, and, by extension, the Dwemer race. How else can you explain Sotha Sil's Clockwork City being more technilogically advanced than both Dwemer and Chimer creations? Moody Woman: Anyone know why Kagrenec was not sucessful but Dagoth Ur and the Tribunal were. Because of something called time. Kagrenac used the heart as an act of desperation, his experiments on the heart not yet complete. Sotha Sil thought out the steps necessary to make himself a god, and did further experiments. Dagoth Ur was sleeping the big sleep, and certainly had enough time to go over Kagrenac's work in his mind. Moody Woman: Also, how come Yagrum didn't disappear. Well, there is a distinct possibility that the big hunk of Corprus isn't Dwemer at all. He explains that he was in an "Outer Realm" at the time. Moody Woman: I think the tools either acted like a disease to the dwemer or quickened the aging process that is why Yagrum still lived. Why don't you think about that. If a disease kills every member of a specific race instantaneously, then how is it transmitted? Moody Woman: Also if you look at the pictures un the Egg of Time or other dwemer books you shall realize that it wasn't Dagoth Ur's idea to build akulhan(spelling). That could also be why the dwemer disappeared. So then now you're saying that an idea killed off the Dwemer? Moody Woman: If Dagoth Ur was sucessful wouldn't he have disappeared anyways. No, because he would have been successful! Moody Woman: But Kagrenec was mortal so that could have been another flaw in his plan. Dagoth Ur was immortal. If Dagoth Ur was immortal when he used the heart, then why would he use it in the first place? To make him even more immortal? Really, if you want to argue something with me, back it up with actual evidence, not lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ta'Thalos Posted October 4, 2003 Author Share Posted October 4, 2003 You tell her Marxist! :P Also, Almalexia, Vivec and Sotha Sil were not Dark Elves; at that point, there was no such thing as a Dark Elf ('Dunmer' actually), because Azura only made the Chimer into Dunmer after the Tribunal broke their promises.And as far as I know, the 'Elves' of Tamriel are not Tolkien-Elves, and are not immortal in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThetaOrionis01 Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Just a little word of warning here, Marxist *astard....while you may think changing another poster's user name to 'Moody Woman' is funny I can assure you that female mood swings are no laughing matter. *holds up her licence to rip off heads* See? :lol: Regarding dunmer lifespans, aren't telvanni wizards noteworthy for their long lifespans - which would indicate that they are unusual? Regarding the remains in Tribunal - some of the armour and weapons found would indicate that the wearers were standing guard at the time of their demise. The odd thing about the ashpiles is that they would indicate that the wearer of the armour has been completely incinerated while armour and weapons remain completely unscathed....spontaneous dwemer combustion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ta'Thalos Posted October 4, 2003 Author Share Posted October 4, 2003 Yes that's quite obvious; there were several such piles with armour and weapons in Skybreak Gallery (where the weather machine is). But the point is that the armour they were wearing was therefore military or pseudo-military, hence all Dwemer armour can't be 'reverse-engineered' from stripped Centurion parts (except the pauldrons and bracers, those are just cheap :D).Also there are some ash piles under beds (in fact there's one with two ash piles :lol: ), which means that some Dwemer must have been sleeping or...doing something else in bed at the time. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmac Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 I think the whole idea of Dwemer armour being stripped off Centurions came from the book Chronicles of Nchuleft, where the scientist-commentator notes that the metal hulks of the dusty Centurions have been stripped of the Armour plating. It was NOT "hammered and bent" into the regular Dwemer armour. The Dwemer wore the armour in their military. You tell 'em, Marxist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmac Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Eventually, the Dwemer military evolves from creating steam-powered gizmos to reconstructing Lorkhan. Lorkhan is a dead god, one of the first, mentioned in many books. He is responsible for creating the planet. His heart is the one in the Chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeLLL Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Eventually, the Dwemer military evolves from creating steam-powered gizmos to reconstructing Lorkhan.Lorkhan is a dead god, one of the first, mentioned in many books. He is responsible for creating the planet. His heart is the one in the Chamber. Correct. He was the god that created mortals. The other gods angered by this cast his heart into the plain of which he created. These are IMHO. That's er... Wrong. Completely wrong. And illogical at that. If the Tribunal were with Nerevar in the heart chamber, then why did he have to leave in order to discuss the matter with them? Well after the battle of red mountain Nerevar would want to return to his Outpost/command centre. He was a Dunmer General after all. After you have faught a battle you would want to return to a place away from where the battle took place. If Dagoth Ur had a strict stance on destroying the tools, then why did he have the sudden change of heart? Easy. If you had the oppurtunity to tap the power of a gods heart and make yourself immortal would you pass up the chance. He had oppurtunity <no one else was there> and motive. Why would you want to play second fiddle when you could become immortal and take control? Power corupts. If Dagoth Ur made himself into a god and killed Nerevar, then how did the Tribunal escape? Well event hough he was a "god" dosent mean he would have had a easy time killing a battle hardend general. Also <correct em if i am wrong> wernt the Tribunal allied with Nerever? Why didn't Dagoth Ur conquer Morrowind at that instant? After fighting Nerever he would have being exhausted so why not rest and build an army and wait untill the land of Morrowind was inhabited. In doing so you would have a complete society with no effort of yours being exhausted. <although it would make sense to take over the land whilst there was no leader> How did the Tribunal make themselves into gods if Dagoth ur was still guarding the tools? Once again IMHO the Tribuanl and Dagoth Ur had a "pact". Dagoth Ur gets to kill Nerevar and the Tribunal get to use the tools. 2 birds with one stone. How did Dagoth Ur steal everything but Wraithguard, and, since you believe that the effects of the heart don't deplete as one goes away from the heart, why? Maybe he did not relise that he needed it? Since he was already immortal and had joined himself to the heart why need it? That and he may of grabbed the wrong one <since there is 2>. As for why being away from the heart and depletion of power I must disagree also. If you could wander from the heart; then why didnt Dagoth Ur move from Red Mountain and go into hiding somewhere where the Tribunal/Temple couldnt find him? Its like life support. Your on that machine and theres only so much cord connecting you. Move to far from the machine and BANG. You be dead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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