Stormcloak Vs Empire - Problems with previous debate, missing info

[makuansoni]

My biggest problem with the Stormcloak vs. Empire debate is that no thread I've seen contains ALL of the relevant information.

 

So let me lay it on the table:

 

Option 1: Do nothing.

• The Thalmor win.

Option 2: Join the Stormcloaks

• Ulfric is a piece of s***
• The Stormcloaks are racist
• Skyrim is not likely to be taken out by the Thalmor because every motherfracker will pick up arms and fight them. Not just the army. Every man woman and child will murder Thalmor if it tries to invade.
• Talos is your brother, not ancestor. The only hereditary lineage of Dragonborn is because of the Amulet of Kings and the DragonFires. Every natural born Dragonborn is a chosen of Akatosh.
• You get to worship Talos and any nord hero you choose.
• Ulfric was a mentally compromised Thalmor agent who is considered incactive and an unreliable asset, save for his efforts in this war.
• You are free to kill the genocidal Thalmor as you wish.

Option 3: Join the Imperials

• Skyrim is more prosperous
• The Empire is united and stronger
• The Empire is very unlikely to commit to fighting the Thalmor. Only the proper army will fight. Most of the Empire is more concerned with their own wealth and comfort than any semblance to freedom, independance, or outrage at the genocidal thalmor.
• The Emporer was winning the war. The Thalmor used magic to force a treaty. The Emporer is magickally compromised. Aka he's an unwitting Thalmor asset.
• The Empire are the lapdogs of a genocidal government who even commits atrocious acts against its own people and against Altmer dissodants.
• The Empire decided independantly that worshiping Talos was bad because any Nord hero could theoretically become a God and drastically weaken the power of the Eight Divines.

So you're basically choosing between racist isolationists headed by a mentally compromised Thalmor puppet who is an ass, but have a real chance to free themselves from an oppressive genocidal regime, and while they are racist they hold no institutional power over anyone else outside of Skyrim.

 

The other choice is to back an empire that is complicit in cooperating not just with racists, but genocidal motherfrackers with institutional power not only across the Aldemeri Dominion, but across the entire Empire as well.

 

Racists vs Genocidal Apologists with Institutional Power

 

yeah, what a choice

Edited January 4, 2015 by makuansoni

[makuansoni]

If you think the game source provides additional context, please comment below and continue the discussion.

[Consantine]

Sources :http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Leyawiin http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Countess_Alessia_Caro http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Wulf http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:General_Tullius

 

Well...

 

First of all, I'm a Morrowind and Oblivion vet. In oblivion, racism is more rampant compared to Skyrim, (And that's bad considering it's the imperial heartland.)

 

In morrowind, you meet Tiber Septim (sort of) and he says this,

 

"The Emperor is getting old. Don't know how much longer he'll hang on. So is the whole Empire, for that matter. Getting old, that is. The Emperor and the legions have held the Empire together for hundreds of years. It's been a good thing, by and large. But maybe it's time for a change. Time for something young and new. What? No idea. Because I'm old. Old dog doesn't get new ideas. But maybe young folks like you should try some new ideas. I don't know. Could be messy. But change is never pretty."

 

 

To me, it seems like he's making a direct referance to the Stormcloaks.

 

Also general Tulias says this during the quest diplomatic immunity,

 

"Look around the room and you'll see what we're up against. Just between you and me, a lot of what Ulfric says about the Empire is true."

 

 

Also the claims that Ulfric is entirely self centered are not entirely true, as his dialouge prior to his death reveals,

 

Tullius: "Secure the door."
Rikke: "Already done, sir."
Tullius: "Ulfric Stormcloak! You are guilty of insurrection, murder of Imperial citizens, the assassination of King Torygg, and high treason against the Empire. It's over."
Galmar: "Not while I'm still breathing, it's not."
Rikke: "Step aside Galmar. We're here to accept Ulfric's surrender."
Ulfric: "I'll never surrender Skyrim into the hands of a corrupt and dying Empire."
Rikke: "Skyrim doesn't belong to you, Ulfric."
Ulfric: "No... But I belong to her."
Tullius: "Enough! You are traitors and will die traitors' deaths. Stand down and face public execution, or advance and face summary execution by my hands. It matters little to me. Either way I'll be sending your heads back to Cyrodiil."
Galmar: "Well? What are we waiting for?"

 

Death was eminant, no reason to keep up the "act."

 

 

Also Tullius's speech doesn't entirely show the Empire in a very good light.

 

"The rebellion is over. Ulfric Stormcloak is dead. His head will be sent to Cyrodiil where it will adorn a spike on the walls of the Imperial City. Let this day be a final warning to all who would still call themselves Stormcloaks. We are turning the city over to Brunwulf Free-Winter, an honorable and faithful man. Many of you will be staying in Windhelm to aid the Jarl in restoring order and stamping out any embers of rebellion that may still smolder here. In appreciation for your exemplary service, I am doubling your pay and compensation to the widows of your fallen comrades. I am proud of all of you. All hail the Emperor. All hail his Legionnaires!"

 

Also, an article on Ulfric's racism, http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:ScholarOfTheScrolls/Ulfric_Stormcloak_is_NOT_a_racist.

[makuansoni]

All very good points.

[notmyhome]

• The Empire decided independantly that worshiping Talos was bad because any Nord hero could theoretically become a God and drastically weaken the power of the Eight Divines.

 

 

I'd need clarification on that point.

It's been confirmed by developers that Hjalti/Tiber was a very, very special case who reached Godhood in at least two different ways; firstly, he achieved CHIM and is therefore on par with Vivec, and a second time (the timeline is not really clear) during the Enantiomorphic Event which made Zurin Arcturus the Underking. A possible third way, his connection to the Numidium, is a lot less clear.

 

I don't think we'll see any case like that again anytime soon.

Also the Empire were the ones to declare Septim part of the Pantheon.

[makuansoni]

 

• The Empire decided independantly that worshiping Talos was bad because any Nord hero could theoretically become a God and drastically weaken the power of the Eight Divines.

 

 

I'd need clarification on that point.

It's been confirmed by developers that Hjalti/Tiber was a very, very special case who reached Godhood in at least two different ways; firstly, he achieved CHIM and is therefore on par with Vivec, and a second time (the timeline is not really clear) during the Enantiomorphic Event which made Zurin Arcturus the Underking. A possible third way, his connection to the Numidium, is a lot less clear.

 

I don't think we'll see any case like that again anytime soon.

Also the Empire were the ones to declare Septim part of the Pantheon.

 

This was in a book called "The Talos Mistake" You can find it at the Shrine of Talos overlooking Windhelm.

[MidbossVyers]

Well, Stormcloaks, as a whole, are nationalist, but not necessarily racist. They have a few non-Nords in their ranks, and a Stormcloak controlled Morthal is the only court who has an Argonian housecarl, not to mention that, save for the blacksmith, all the major shops in Windhelm are run by elves. And I don't really consider Ulfric that much worse than... pretty much any other politician.

Edited January 6, 2015 by MidbossVyers

[Boombro]

Well, Stormcloaks, as a whole, are nationalist, but not necessarily racist. They have a few non-Nords in their ranks, and a Stormcloak controlled Morthal is the only court who has an Argonian housecarl, not to mention that, save for the blacksmith, all the major shops in Windhelm are run by elves. And I don't really consider Ulfric that much worse than... pretty much any other politician.

People talk about the Gray Quarter and how bad the place is. But the place was a normal housing for the low and mid class before the red year has some nords, mer and other humans living in it.

 

I think the place became a slum, a farmer said that "they should work." when we think about it, some dunmer don't work, also that nord beggar. The dunmer only talk about how bad things are, but they can fix floors right? Dunmer are a strong, smart and talented race. Why they don't try to do something by themselves?

 

There is also this Nord man, Brunwulf free-winter about our scaly friends "they must remain outside for their own safety" why would he say that?

 

The Dunmer and Argonians are by far (when it comes to how much I know.) the most two races that hate each other.

 

First the dunmer enslaved them and would kidnap them from hatchlings since the first era from their own homes. They raided and killed and humiliated them. It only normal that it will Argonians would freaking hate them.

 

 

Now after the events of Oblivion, when Argonians joined armed and forced daedra to close oblivion gates. They were like "let kill some mer, yo" after clans joined arms together to form some kind of kingdom after gathering everyone from all around with the help of the hist.

 

A war came later where they tired to pretty much to kill everyone in Morrowind, especially house Telvanni. Morrowind fought back, but black marsh still have the southern parts. The war lasted for two years and killed so many. It only normal to think it a good idea to not mix the two at all.

 

 

 

Also argonians suck in cold weather, they why they get paid less by raciest nords.

[Lachdonin]

 

In morrowind, you meet Tiber Septim (sort of) and he says this,

 

"The Emperor is getting old. Don't know how much longer he'll hang on. So is the whole Empire, for that matter. Getting old, that is. The Emperor and the legions have held the Empire together for hundreds of years. It's been a good thing, by and large. But maybe it's time for a change. Time for something young and new. What? No idea. Because I'm old. Old dog doesn't get new ideas. But maybe young folks like you should try some new ideas. I don't know. Could be messy. But change is never pretty."

 

 

To me, it seems like he's making a direct referance to the Stormcloaks.

 

I personally find this to be highly unlikely, because Nordic empires and Nordic traditions are about as old as you can get. It's especially unlikely, since Ulfric and the Stormcloaks don't want to move forward, they want to go BACK...

 

Anyway, any attempt to make a comprehensive list of points for both sides of the equation is doomed to failure, because we only have part of the picture. We can balance most of the propaganda from the Imperials and Stormcloaks to get a generally honest image of their current actions, but we are left with some glaring issues that are the product of little to no information regarding the Dominion.

 

Take, for instance, the Dominions withdrawal from Hammerfell. Some view it as proof the Dominion was weak enough to take after the Great War, but it leaves too many uncertianties. How did they hold the United Redguard back for so long? Why the suddent a out face with their negotiation Tactics? How could so thoughtful and devious a nation be caught so totally unprepared? Without more information, the Hammerfell situation is either just really bad writing, or something else is afoot, but exactly WHAT is going to influence your opinion of the warring parties.

 

And what of Ulfric's assertions that he plans to take the fight to the Dominion? He lacks the means, and the overal unity necessary, and has no allies outside of Hammerfell. Is he delusional, lying, or does he have a plan?

 

What about the Emperor? He certainly doesn't expect any problems, even with his death, for the Empire. Is he just a tired old man, or does he have a contingency in place?

 

There are too many questions regarding all the parties to make a simple, bulleted, point by point breakdown, because it's going to boil down largely to interpretation.

[makuansoni]

I think that most of the discussions are missing most of the relevant facts. While some points are up to interpretation, my point was to get as many of the actual facts out there so one could make an informed decision based on available information.