You know what really grinds my gears?

[WeissYohji]

Well, it's been a few days, so here's some more stuff:

 

After the Oblivion Crisis ends, instead of searching for a new emperor, why not just try a new form of government?

[Gerroh]

What grinds my gears, similar to some other complaints.

I'm pretty irritated with the way they did Argonians, and how they butchered them when moving them from Morrowind to Oblivion.

In Morrowind Argonians had spear, unarmored, and medium armor for combat, all of which were removed for Oblivion. What do they give Argonians to make up for this? Blade and security, wth. Why would lizards from a swamp be good at picking locks? I can understand Khajiit, with the whole better eyesight thing. Just doesn't make sense with Argonians. Blade only sorta makes sense, I just can't imagine a swamp monster running around with a claymore.

Another thing that bothered me was, as mentioned before, the feet. Argonians should have triple-joint legs like in Morrowind, I don't even care if they look bad, it looks better than those scaly human feet.

Argonians now swim like the other races, as opposed to the unique "wiggle" animation they had in Morrowind. They also changed the way Khajiit swim, but this doesn't bother me AS much.

 

As you can probably tell, I've been a big fan of Argonians since I first started playing.

 

Edit: Another thing that grinds my gears is how heavy glass is, glass is supposed to be lightweight, high quality, but not very durable. Glass armor isn't light at all, goddamn it.

About the materials, relax guys, it's a fantasy game, a glass bow could work by putting flexible pieces between the glass sections, you can see not all bows are made 100% from the described material.

[Ferryt]

Gerroh, Argonians do not have "triple joint legs". They have digitigrade legs. This configuration has exactly the same number of bones and joints as plantigrade (like human) legs. The difference is that Argonians in Morrowind walk on their toes. That "extra joint" is nothing more than the heel of the foot. Basic biology, there. reference image here

 

I agree with you on this point, though, although I could make a good argument for plantigrade Argonians since most reptiles are actually plantigrade. However, in the case of Khajiit, the basic felid form begs for digitigrade legs. The problem is that the developers of Oblivion apparently didn't want to spend the time to create unique skeletal configurations for the beast races. It would also have required separate animations to deal with digitigrade leg movement -- possibly another reason it wasn't done. We already know that this game was rushed into production and that as a result it's one of the buggiest games ever released for public consumption. This is likely just another manifestation of what happens when you release a game before it's really finished.

[Gerroh]

Gerroh, Argonians do not have "triple joint legs". They have digitigrade legs. This configuration has exactly the same number of bones and joints as plantigrade (like human) legs. The difference is that Argonians in Morrowind walk on their toes. That "extra joint" is nothing more than the heel of the foot. Basic biology, there. reference image here

 

Pointless argument, same thing, different words.

[maxyall]

Just be happy and play the game... It's the game after all not a simulator.

I can take everything and not getting pissed off when it's not realistic... Just use your imagination :rolleyes:

 

If you're a game developer you'll have many thing to think about and they wont look at every inch of the game system because they're lazy and got so many project to work up.

 

I wish if they converse morrowind in to oblivion.... Please someone make a total conversion of oblivion!!

[WeissYohji]

Gerroh, Argonians do not have "triple joint legs". They have digitigrade legs. This configuration has exactly the same number of bones and joints as plantigrade (like human) legs. The difference is that Argonians in Morrowind walk on their toes. That "extra joint" is nothing more than the heel of the foot. Basic biology, there. reference image here

 

I agree with you on this point, though, although I could make a good argument for plantigrade Argonians since most reptiles are actually plantigrade. However, in the case of Khajiit, the basic felid form begs for digitigrade legs. The problem is that the developers of Oblivion apparently didn't want to spend the time to create unique skeletal configurations for the beast races. It would also have required separate animations to deal with digitigrade leg movement -- possibly another reason it wasn't done. We already know that this game was rushed into production and that as a result it's one of the buggiest games ever released for public consumption. This is likely just another manifestation of what happens when you release a game before it's really finished.

 

Not quite. Khajiit with digitigrade legs? Sure, except for the Ohmes (Who can easily pass as Bosmer) and Ohmes-raht (Who, if not for their fur and cat ears, could easily pass as humans), given the lunar lattice thing. But being lizard people, Argonians would have plantigrade feet. Modern reptiles IRL are the same way. Now, look back at each game--the Argonians have had different forms, but in-game this is justified because their form ultimately depends on how many times they lick the Hist sap (Maybe they used certain dinosaurs as references for Morrowind's Argonians). So far, we've seen four different strains of Khajiit in each game--Arena had Ohmes, Daggerfall Ohmes-raht, Morrowind Cathay-raht, and Oblivion Suthay-raht. No surprise we'd also see four different strains of Argonians, too. (All these strains and how they're determined must make for some strange breeding cycles.)

[Ferryt]

Gerroh

 

• 
  It's not a pointless argument and they aren't the same thing. The vertebrate leg structure is virtually identical across the board. There's a hip (which is not a joint within the leg), there's the knee (which is a joint within the leg) and there's an ankle (which is the joint that connects the lower leg to the foot). Technically, the leg, itself has only one joint. By your way of thinking all vertebrates, including humans and Argonians, have "triple joint legs" because all of them have precisely the same bones, arranged precisely the same way with respect to one another, and with joints that bend in precisely the same ways. "Triple joint leg" is an oxymoron when you're talking about vertebrate anatomy. That's why I gave you that reference image. It makes what can be a complex idea for some people intuitively obvious if you actually study the three different kinds of legs for their similarities in articulation.
   
  To drive the idea home -- find a full-length mirror, take your shoes and socks off, and stand in front of it. Lift up on your toes. Now, walk around and watch yourself. You now have "triple-jointed" legs! That's precisely how digitigrade and unguligrade species do it, except that the bones of the foot and leg are of different lengths with respect to each other than the bones of your feet and legs. The basic structure is identical. The developers of Argonians in Morrowind knew this basic biology as is clear from any screenshots of that species I've been able to find. What rocks my boat most about this whole issue is that Bethesda had the basic structures for Khajiit and Argonians in Morrowind but didn't use them in Oblivion. They chose to re-invent them from the ground up, rather than to utilize resources they had already developed, earlier, and which were more closely tied to the official lore!
  

 

maxyall

 

• 
  This thread is not about eschewing the good things about Oblivion. It's about the things that really annoy people. The fact that most of us are here on this forum means that most of us are playing the game and enjoying it. We still have gripes about it, though. The fact remains that Oblivion was rushed into production and is probably the single most buggy game ever to be released commercially. It has lots and lots of problems. Modders fix them when they can.
   
  Morrowind has been converted to the Oblivion game engine. Talking about that project can get you into trouble around here because it was banned from this site for alleged copyright/EULA infringements. Google is your friend.
  

 

WeissYohji

 

• 
  My comments regarding Khajiit/Argonians were implied to relate to Oblivion, which doesn't closely follow the official lore regarding those races (or anything else, that I've been able to determine). I'm familiar with the Khajiit and Argonians of Morrowind, only because I did a bit of reading on them when I found out that they aren't the same as they are in Oblivion. I'm not familiar with their appearances in previous ES games. So, we really don't have much of a point of contention, here. You're right on all counts when you take the official lore into consideration, but that's not part of the context of the game of Oblivion. Indeed, there are no fewer than 16 strains of Khajiit according to official lore, and rumors that there may be as many as 20. And, yet, we have but one in Oblivion, as though they were all born under exactly the same phases of the two moons.
   
  I like to think that Argonians, which I think are digitgrade in Morrowind, are they not, were derived from dinosaurian, rather than reptilian stock. It at least helps in my suspension of disbelief in the notion of intelligent reptiles. There are very sound biological reasons why a reptilian metabolism cannot support a big brain, but I won't go into those. An entire book has, in fact, been written on the very subject of reptilian and dinosaurian metabolism. Condensing it into something other than an eye-popping tldr would be very difficult. It still doesn't explain why Argonians have mammary glands, though. :confused:
   
  I still think Bethesda totally borked both Argonians and Khajiit in the transition between Morrowind to Oblivion, but what can you expect from a half-finished game, anyway? I'm almost dreading to see how badly they further butcher the official lore in ES5.
  

[Megatarius]

I'd be happy with Argonians that have Plantigrade feet.

 

It's the human bodies I can't stand. They look like people in masks and full body makeup.

 

It would be more realistic to believe that the Argonians are actually human, mammary glands, live births, and all, but their culture is an exaggeration of this:

 

http://www.thelizardman.com/

 

...in which they use magic to alter their appearances beyond what we can do with makeup and plastic surgery. Then they talk about eggs and such. (I don't follow the lore at all, can you tell?) It's basically their religion.

 

 

But even if that were true, we should get some actual Argonian culture clothing and armor styles. Why do they wear Fur Armor? It's stupid. (I guess if they were human it wouldn't be...) I also can't stand it when I see one in a silk dress.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:OB-npc-Deetsan.jpg

 

That really grinds my gears. It's just stupid looking from an artistic standpoint. The lizard head doesn't go with the rest of it at all. Putting lizard textures on a human form does absolutely nothing to make it seem lizard-like.

[Ferryt]

That's actually the basic reason for this whole mini-discussion regarding the Argonians and Khagiit, Megatarius. The devs simply didn't bother to attempt to recreate the Argonians and Khajiit. They just re-did the heads and stuck them on the same male human body (adding breasts for females) that they did for every single other race. There's no morphological difference between a human, orc, elf, Khajiit, and Argonian except for heads and tails, and everyone in Cyrodiil is stuck with a male body. Actually, now that I think of it, perhaps all the females in the Vanilla game are actually traps. That would explain why we don't see any kids ...

 

But I digress. It wouldn't have been all that much more difficult to create unique bodies for at least the Argonians and Khajiit, especially seeing as how they already did that in Morrowind and could just have imported the meshes into Oblivion. Indeed, if Bethesda really wanted us to believe in the various races they included in this game they would have created unique body forms for at least some of the elves and for orcs to distinguish them, physically from everyone else. Instead, we have a mono-species, androgynous body that gets applied to everything in the game.

[Amer14]

And then there's the AI. How can it be realistic and immersive when I can't witness NPCs committing crimes and getting arrested? I'd love to see some guards breaking up a bar fight or a street brawl, or chasing after a serial killer.

 

Actually, I have seen an NPC committing a crime and getting arrested - and this was in a straight vanilla game as I had not discovered about mods yet. :) It was the trainer that lives in Skingrad, I forget his name. I was at the stables when he snuck by and attempted to pickpocket someone. He was detected and the gate guards went after him. He resisted arrest and the guards killed him.

 

What could I do except loot the body and sell all of his stuff. :biggrin:

 

because of child slaughter. Go outside of Anvil and talk to the guy in the torn blue robes about romours. he talks about the reasons bethesda didnt put certain things in the game