"Islamic Extremeist Terrorist", or, Just 'Terrorist'?

[HeyYou]

Osama stated in several interviews that his goal was to spread islam thoughout the world. (couched in pretty phrases.) And he did not mean just the 'muslim' world.

[Xenoshi]

Osama stated in several interviews that his goal was to spread islam thoughout the world. (couched in pretty phrases.) And he did not mean just the 'muslim' world.

 

No, he most certainly did not. As I have addressed previously:

 

From analysis conducted on the message Osama bin Laden (I.E, people looked at every statement he made and every interview he gave) spread, it was broken down by themes:

Criticism of U.S./Western/Jewish aggression, oppression, and exploitation of Muslim lands and peoples 158.75 (72%) Criticism of Saudi leadership, especially for allying with the United States and allowing U.S. troops in country 45.75 (21%) Religious comments, exhortations to martyrdom 10.00 (5%) Bin Laden’s personal life 2.75 (1%) Criticism of American society and culture 2.50 (1%) Invitation to Islam, spreading Islam to the West 0.50 (0.2%) Total 220.25 (100%)

In all of his statements, interviews, and etc. Osama bin Laden comes up with exactly 0.50 pages talking about spreading Islam to the west. Less than 1% of his rhetoric was ever about conversion to Islam, that hardly constitutes his agenda. If he spent 50% of the time talking about conquering the world and converting it to islam, you would have some sort of basis. However, he never even really expressed interest in conquering the west. He said that it was justifiable in Islam to attack the West and to attack civilians of the West in retaliation for the oppression of Muslims. Infact, Osama bin Laden specifically says he does not consider Muslims in America as true Muslims because the Isalmic law says that Muslims should not dwell long in the lands of non-believers. If he cared about converting the West, he would encourage the spread of his ideology to the west. 72% of his rhetoric was about US/Western/Jewish aggression, oppression, and exploitation of Muslim lands and people. He cared more that Saudi Arabia had used America to defend them than he did about converting people to Islam and he talked more about his personal life than he ever did about spreading Islam.

You are, once again, making statements which are not substantiated on fact. You provide no documentation to support your claims and every single claim you have made I have been able to refute categorically. Can we please just call this debate closed?

Edited May 1, 2015 by Xenoshi

[Aurielius]

I know that as the anointed apologist for the terrorist community you could concisely explain away this....Osama's handiwork.

You are selling revisionist history but no one is buying....

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/40/81/20/4081201424568f5dc21ae267bc271185.jpg

[soupdragon1234]

Ok i think I've heard enough. So far no-one other than Xenoshi has come with anything even resembling a debate here. All thats been posted is vague opinions or giving voice to various prejudices or flag waving ad hominum and appeal to emotion arguments.

 

If anyone has empirical data then please provide it otherwise I'd suggest giving it a rest because its becoming very close to trolling honestly.

 

@Xenoshi: thanks for what you've posted so far, its been very informative.

Edited May 1, 2015 by soupdragon1234

[Aurielius]

Personally I thought it redundant (and unnecessarily pedagogical) to list the all the recent Terrorist attacks prior to this, but so be it.

By my count we have only one crazed Protestant versus the plethora of Muslim Extremists.

 

 

1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.

1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier.
Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.

1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.

1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.

2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.

2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed.
2002
June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb explodes outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.

2003 1
May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers kill 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.

2004
May 29–31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.
June 11–19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.
Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.

2005
Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.

2006
Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy is foiled.

2007
Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy is fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.
Dec. 11, Algeria: more than 60 people are killed, including 11 United Nations staff members, when Al Qaeda terrorists detonate two car bombs near Algeria's Constitutional Council and the United Nations offices.
2008
May 26, Iraq: a suicide bomber on a motorcycle kills six U.S. soldiers and wounds 18 others in Tarmiya.
June 24, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills at least 20 people, including three U.S. Marines, at a meeting between sheiks and Americans in Karmah, a town west of Baghdad.
June 12, Afghanistan: four American servicemen are killed when a roadside bomb explodes near a U.S. military vehicle in Farah Province.
July 13, Afghanistan: nine U.S.soldiers and at least 15 NATO troops die when Taliban militants boldly attack an American base in Kunar Province, which borders Pakistan. It's the most deadly against U.S. troops in three years.
Aug. 18 and 19, Afghanistan: as many as 15 suicide bombers backed by about 30 militants attack a U.S. military base, Camp Salerno, in Bamiyan. Fighting between U.S. troops and members of the Taliban rages overnight. No U.S. troops are killed.
Sept. 16, Yemen: a car bomb and a rocket strike the U.S. embassy in Yemen as staff arrived to work, killing 16 people, including 4 civilians. At least 25 suspected al-Qaeda militants are arrested for the attack.
Nov. 26, India: in a series of attacks on several of Mumbai's landmarks and commercial hubs that are popular with Americans and other foreign tourists, including at least two five-star hotels, a hospital, a train station, and a cinema. About 300 people are wounded and nearly 190 people die, including at least 5 Americans.
2009
Feb. 9, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills four American soldiers and their Iraqi translator near a police checkpoint.
April 10, Iraq: a suicide attack kills five American soldiers and two Iraqi policemen.
June 1, Little Rock, Arkansas: Abdulhakim Muhammed, a Muslim convert from Memphis, Tennessee, is charged with shooting two soldiers outside a military recruiting center. One is killed and the other is wounded. In a January 2010 letter to the judge hearing his case, Muhammed asked to change his plea from not guilty to guilty, claimed ties to al-Qaeda, and called the shooting a jihadi attack "to fight those who wage war on Islam and Muslims."
Dec. 25: A Nigerian man on a flight from Amsterdam to Detroit attempted to ignite an explosive device hidden in his underwear. The explosive device that failed to detonate was a mixture of powder and liquid that did not alert security personnel in the airport. The alleged bomber, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, told officials later that he was directed by the terrorist group Al Qaeda. The suspect was already on the government's watch list when he attempted the bombing; his father, a respected Nigerian banker, had told the U.S. government that he was worried about his son's increased extremism.
Dec. 30, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills eight Americans civilians, seven of them CIA agents, at a base in Afghanistan. It's the deadliest attack on the agency since 9/11. The attacker is reportedly a double agent from Jordan who was acting on behalf of al-Qaeda.
2010
May 1, New York City: a car bomb is discovered in Times Square, New York City after smoke is seen coming from a vehicle. The bomb was ignited, but failed to detonate and was disarmed before it could cause any harm. Times Square was evacuated as a safety precaution. Faisal Shahzad pleads guilty to placing the bomb as well as 10 terrorism and weapons charges.
May 10, Jacksonville, Florida: a pipe bomb explodes while approximately 60 Muslims are praying in the mosque. The attack causes no injuries.
Oct. 29: two packages are found on separate cargo planes. Each package contains a bomb consisting of 300 to 400 grams (11-14 oz) of plastic explosives and a detonating mechanism. The bombs are discovered as a result of intelligence received from Saudi Arabia's security chief. The packages, bound from Yemen to the United States, are discovered at en route stop-overs, one in England and one in Dubai in the United Arab Emirates.
2011
Jan. 17, Spokane, Washington: a pipe bomb is discovered along the route of the Martin Luther King, Jr. memorial march. The bomb, a "viable device" set up to spray marchers with shrapnel and to cause multiple casualties, is defused without any injuries.

2012
Sept. 11, Benghazi, Libya: militants armed with antiaircraft weapons and rocket-propelled grenades fire upon the American consulate, killing U.S. ambassador to Libya Christopher Stevens and three other embassy officials. U.S. secretary of state Hillary Clinton said the U.S. believed that Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, a group closely linked to Al Qaeda, orchestrated the attack.
2013
Feb. 1, Ankara, Turkey: Ecevit Sanli detonates a bomb near a gate at the U.S. Embassy. Sanli dies after detonating the bomb. One Turkish guard is also killed. Didem Tuncay, a respected television journalist, is injured in the blast. Unlike the bombing at the embassy in Benghazi last September, the U.S. government immediately calls the bombing a terrorist attack. According to Turkish officials, the attack is from the Revolutionary People's Liberation Party, which has been labeled a terrorist organization by the U.S. and other nations.
April 15, Boston, Mass.: multiple bombs explode near the finish line of the Boston Marathon. Two bombs go off around 2:50 in the afternoon as runners finish the race. Three people are killed. One is an eight year old boy. More than 260 people are injured. Three days later, the FBI releases photos and video of two suspects in the hope that the public can help identify them. Just hours after the FBI releases the images, the two suspects rob a gas station in Central Square then shoot and kill a MIT police officer in his car. Afterwards, the two men carjack a SUV and tell the driver that they had set off the explosions at the marathon. Police pursue the vehicle into Watertown. During the shootout, a MBTA officer is shot and one of the suspects, identified as Tamerlan Tsarnaev, age 26, is killed. A suicide vest is found on his body. The other suspect, Dzhokhar A. Tsarnaev, age 19, remains at large for several hours, causing a massive manhunt and lockdown for all of Boston, Cambridge, and many other surrounding communities. The manhunt ends when he is found alive, but seriously injured, hiding in a boat behind a house in Watertown. The two suspects are brothers and had been living together in Cambridge. They have lived in the U.S. for about a decade, but are from an area near Chechnya, a region in Russia.
2014
July 17, Ukraine: A Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 crashes in eastern Ukraine near the Russian border, killing all 298 passengers and crew members. The crash occurs in territory where pro-Russian separatists have been battling Ukrainian troops. President Poroshenko says the crash is an act of terror. "I would like to note that we are calling this not an incident, not a catastrophe, but a terrorist act," he says. Ukrainian and American officials say the plane is shot down by a Russian-made surface-to-air missile, citing satellite images. Poroshenko accuses the separatists of launching the missile, which they deny. Russian president Putin also denies having any role in the disaster. A day after the crash, President Obama says he believes that the rebels shot down the plane. He calls the crash a "global tragedy" and faults Putin for continuing to arm the rebels and for not stopping the fighting. Most analysts say rebels may have thought they were targeting a military transport plane rather than a commercial jet. A day before the crash, the U.S. and Europe impose further sanctions on Russia in response to Putin's refusal to stop arming the separatists.
August 19: Members of ISIS behead American journalist James Foley, 40, in apparent retaliation for U.S. airstrikes against the group. Foley, who worked for GlobalPost, went missing in Syria in November 2012.
Sept. 2: An ISIS militant decapitates another American journalist, Steven Sotloff, 31, who worked for Time and other news outlets. He was abducted in 2013 in Syria.

 

- NCTC (National Counter Terrorism Center)

 

 

“Satire is a lesson to the observant"- Vladimir Nabokov

[HeyYou]

Have a look Here.

 

These are Osama's own words, taken directly from various interviews. His goal was to spread islam, one way or another, world wide.

 

Who conducted the analysis?

Edited May 1, 2015 by HeyYou

[Xenoshi]

I know that as the anointed apologist for the terrorist community you could concisely explain away this....Osama's handiwork.

You are selling revisionist history but no one is buying....

 

*Picture removed, because decorum.*

Ad hominem and appealing to emotion. Nice attempt at shock value, I guess. It is a sad state when the only foot your argument has to stand on is attempting to appeal to emotion via pictures of September 11th. Why yes, that is what a terrorist attack looks like. That doesn't change in any shape, way, or form the motivation behind said attack. It also, coincidentally, has nothing to do with our discussion beyond proving that you really have no real argument. While hardly worth replying to, let us look at what Osama bin Laden had to say shortly after 9/11 anyways:

 

"What America is tasting today is but a fraction of what we have tasted for decades. For over eighty years our umma has endured this humiliation and contempt. Its sons have been killed, its blood has been shed, its holy sanctuaries have been violated, all in a manner contrary to that revealed by God, without anyone listening or responding." and "Until this point, a million innocent children have been killed in Iraq, although they had done nothing wrong. But we do not hear anyone condemning this, nor do we hear any juridical decree from the official scholars. As I speak, Israeli tanks and bulldozers are going in and wreaking havoc and sin in Palestine."

 

Nothing about "They aren't Muslim." "We're doing this because God told us to kill the infidels". Nope, he justifies the attack on America by pointing out how America and the west has been responsible for aggression and death in the Middle East. He points out that Americans have killed Muslims and have violated the holy places of Islam such as Saudi Arabia. He also brings up the 1.5 million Iraqi children which allegedly perished from starvation as a result of the US Sanctions against Iraq....And because of America constantly supporting Israel, who oppresses the Palestinian people on a daily basis.

 

Personally I thought it redundant (and unnecessarily pedagogical) to list the all the recent Terrorist attacks prior to this, but so be it.

By my count we have only one crazed Protestant versus the plethora of Muslim Extremists.

 

Snipped for brevity.

 

Congratulations on proving that terrorists are terrorists and they commit acts of terrorism. This does nothing other than prove that terrorists are terrorists.

 

An FBI report shows that only a small percentage of terrorist attacks carried out on U.S. soil between 1980 and 2005 were perpetrated by Muslims. For those of you inclined to pictures, have a graph based on the FBI Data.

 

http://i.imgur.com/LrK0WJR.png

 

And for another bit of information that is related to something grounded in reality and not jingoism:

 

"Since 9/11, [Charles Kurzman, Professor of Sociology at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, writing for the Triangle Center on Terrorism and National Security] and his team tallies, 33 Americans have died as a result of terrorism launched by their Muslim neighbors. During that period, 180,000 Americans were murdered for reasons unrelated to terrorism. In just the past year, the mass shootings that have captivated America’s attention killed 66 Americans, “twice as many fatalities as from Muslim-American terrorism in all 11 years since 9/11,” notes Kurzman’s team."

 

The ”Profiles of Perpetrators of Terrorism in the United States” compiled by the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism – found:

"Between 1970 and 2011, 32 percent of the perpetrator groups were motivated by ethnonationalist/separatist agendas, 28 percent were motivated by single issues, such as animal rights or opposition to war, and seven percent were motivated by religious beliefs. In addition, 11 percent of the perpetrator groups were classified as extreme right-wing, and 22 percent were categorized as extreme left-wing.

Preliminary findings from PPT-US data between 1970 and 2011 also illustrate a distinct shift in the dominant ideologies of these terrorist groups over time, with the proportion of emerging ethnonationalist/separatist terrorist groups declining and the proportion of religious terrorist groups increasing. However, while terrorist groups with religious ideologies represent 40 percent of all emergent groups from 2000-2011 (two out of five), they only account for seven percent of groups over time."

Likewise, according to the EU Terrorism Situation and Trend Report released by Europol finds that between the years of 2006 to 2008 only 0.4% of terrorist attacks in Europe could be attributed to Islamic fundamentalist. Left Wing Extremists were responsible for 16x more terrorist attacks.

http://i.imgur.com/g6r7Q3Y.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/PM4XTef.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/F2fZvIb.jpg

In 2013, there were 152 terrorist attacks in EU countries. Two of them were religiously motivated.

In 2012, there were 219 terrorist attacks in EU countries. Six of them were religiously motivated.

In 2011, none of the 174 terrorist attacks in EU countries were affiliated or inspired by terrorist organizations.

In 2010, there were 249 terrorist attacks in EU countries. Three of them were considered by Europol to be Islamist.

In 2009, of 294 terrorist attacks in EU countries, only one was related to Islamist militancy.

The 2011 NCTC report found that the vast majority of deaths from terrorism in the Middle East were in fact Muslims:

 

"• In cases where the religious affiliation of terrorism casualties could be determined, Muslims suffered between 82 and 97 percent of terrorism-related fatalities over the past five years.

• Muslim majority countries bore the greatest number of attacks involving 10 or more deaths, with Afghanistan sustaining the highest number (47), followed by Iraq (44), Pakistan (37), Somalia (28), and Nigeria (12).

• Afghans also suffered the largest number of fatalities overall with 3,245 deaths, followed by Iraqis (2,958), Pakistanis (2,038), Somalis (1,013), and Nigerians (590)."

Furthermore, organizations like Al Qaeda in Iraq -- which would later become ISIS -- did not exist prior to the United States invasion of Iraq. Infact, Al Qaeda in Iraq was formed as a direct reaction to the American invasion into Iraq and in response to George W. Bush actually describing the war on terror as a crusade. So, once more. Terrorists are terrorists. They commit acts of terrorism. Thank you for taking time out of your typical fallacy-filled rants to share with us that knowledge.

Also, "Satire is a lesson, parody is a game." Is the Vladimir Nabokov quote.

He also wrote:

"The breaking of a wave cannot explain the whole sea."

Have a look Here.

 

These are Osama's own words, taken directly from various interviews. His goal was to spread islam, one way or another, world wide.

 

Who conducted the analysis?

 

Congratulations on finding literally the small samples of Osama bin Laden saying he is trying to convert people to Islam which I admitted existed as exactly 0.2% of his speech ever spoke of converting people to Islam. Kudos. You have done exactly nothing to disprove what I said. Just because he says offhandedly that his goal is to spread Islam, that does not make it so. He never mentions global conquest. He spends the vast majority of his accounted for spoken word, in interview and in statements, categorically asserting that US occupation of Muslim lands as his justification for attacking America.

 

As for who analyzed it? James L. Payne. Furthermore, almost every credible scholar in the field of studying terrorism and counterterrorism have concluded that terrorists are motivated by political, secular motives. Robert Pape, for instance, concluded based on an analysis of every known case of suicide terrorism from 1980 to 2003 (315 attacks as part of 18 campaigns) that there is "little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, or any one of the world’s religions... . Rather, what nearly all suicide terrorist attacks have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland" and that nationalism is more often than not the cause of terrorism and that it is an extreme form of national liberation strategy.

 

Also of note:

"If bin Laden were deeply interested in fundamentalist Islam as a universal faith

to be spread to the entire world, we would expect him to be extremely hostile toward

Turkish leaders because they, perhaps more than any other rulers in the world, “polluted”

the traditional, fundamentalist creed. Surprisingly, however, he never mentions

Turkey: it is entirely off his radar. This neglect squares with the hypothesis that he

views Islam principally as an Arab, territorial religion. Turkey is a non-Arab country,

and therefore what the Turks do in connection with Islam holds little interest for

him—indeed, no more interest than the practices of American Muslims"

" Michael Scheuer, the former head of the CIA’s Bin Laden

Unit, has studied Al-Qaeda pronouncements for many years. He finds overwhelming

evidence that bin Laden is motivated by the “belief that the United States is intent on

destroying Muslims, their religion, and the Islamic world” (2006, 4). The idea—

widely repeated by the media and U.S. leaders of both parties—that the terrorists hate

and attack us “for what we are” (our freedoms, democracy, civil liberties, and so forth)

goes so obviously against the facts, Scheuer says, that it merits “only scorn and

contempt”"

"Another scholar who has analyzed bin Laden’s statements, Marine colonel John Jandora, comes to a similar conclusion. He sees the terrorists as reacting to the shame of U.S. intrusions: “He [bin Laden] builds a theme of erasing shame by constantly mentioning situations of enduring humiliation and disgrace and prospects of restoring honor and dignity. He brings up this theme over 75 times in 18 of his major statements”"

"Reporter Peter Bergen, who has spent many years studying Osama bin Laden

and interviewing people who have known him, concurs. Bin Laden, he says, “has

never . . . expressed an interest in attacking the West because of our ‘freedoms’”

"In case after case, Wright details how Islamic radicals were drawn into the movement by perceptions of

territorial intrusion. For example, Mohammad Atta, the leader of the 9/11 plot, had

no real ideology beyond “vaguely socialist ideas.” What enraged him and caused him

to sign up for a suicide operation was the 1996 Israeli attack on Lebanon"

"Ramzi Yousef was the first Islamic terrorist to attack the U.S. homeland, blowing a two-hundred-foot crater in the basement of the World Trade

Center in 1993. Was he hoping thereby to impose Islam on the United States? There

is no sign that the thought ever occurred to him. “Not a particularly devout Muslim,”

reports Wright, Yousef was aiming to topple the Twin Towers in order to cause

250,000 deaths, “a toll he thought equaled the pain the Palestinians had experienced

because of America’s support of Israel”"

"Political scientist Robert Pape has developed an interesting methodology for

discerning terrorists’ motivation by studying their backgrounds. He collected biographical

details of 462 suicide terrorists who participated in 315 attacks from 1980

to 2003. He found that the most consistent factor behind suicide terrorism was

military intrusion in the individual’s homeland. He found, for example, that “alQaeda

suicide terrorists are ten times more likely to come from Muslim countries

where there is an American military presence for combat operations than from other

Muslim countries”"

"The idea that terrorists seek to destroy the institutions of Western civilization is

erroneous, a demonizing of the enemy that has no empirical basis. The idea of

imposing sharia on Cleveland, forcing Queen Elizabeth to wear the burka, and letting

George Bush have multiple wives is as ridiculous to them as it is to us. Instead, the

terrorists are inflamed by the perception that the United States is committing aggressions

against Muslim lands and undermining true Islam in these countries."

Finally, I conclude my argument. The majority of the opposition to just calling them "terrorists" has just degraded into nothing more than fallacies and shock value. You have offered nothing of merit to substantiate your argument and we can only go in circles regarding the motivation for terrorism for so long. Every modicum of evidence is in my favor, and being able to produce the 0.2% of the time Osama bin Laden spoke of converting people to Islam does not change the fact that he only spoke about it 0.2% of the time.

Furthermore, might I just add what a laughable experience this has been. The purpose of a debate is to engage in argumentative discussion. It is a method of arguing two points of view against one another. While I have stuck to the issue, the opposition has found itself with nothing better to do than to insult and attack me personally simply because I took up the opposing point of view. The point of a debate is to disagree but to argue ones points against the position of the other, the point of a debate is not to sit around and agree with each other, that is a circlejerk.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Xenoshi

[Aurielius]

What i find truly droll is that you (Xenoshi) think that there is such a thing a winning......these affairs go on ad nauseum till some or all participants get bored or it gets locked. If you think that the last poster wins then that is truly chuckle worthy. Devil's Advocacy? That faux concept is well in your rear view mirror, your advocacy is evident. Dueling sources is an amusing game but it gets old fast. I picked an unimpeachable source and even stuck to what could be definitely attributable, included information that was contrary to my central contention. The DOD analysis I found was far more damning but included too many combat related incidents, which might be argued are acts of asymmetrical warfare. Facts that you don't like you ignore, the same with analysis's. The falling WTC picture upset your delicate sensibilities? It it's a fact, just visually presented. Read "The Master and Margerta"

 

Since you like defining nouns....

précis - a concise summary of essential points, statements, or facts.

padding- lengthening writings with unnecessary material.

[HeyYou]

So because Osama only commented on spreading islam throughout the world a couple times, and is only a small percenatge of his words, that means it doesn't count, and isn't one of his goals. Got it. Right. Uh huh.

 

Just out of idle curiosity, why do you take the side of the islamists? Do you sympathize with their cause? Think they are "right"? Think we should concede that part of the world to them? Just looking to give your cheering section some more material to work with?

[Xenoshi]

What i find truly droll is that you (Xenoshi) think that there is such a thing a winning......these affairs go on ad nauseum till some or all participants get bored or it gets locked. If you think that the last poster wins then that is truly chuckle worthy. Devil's Advocacy? That faux concept is well in your rear view mirror, your advocacy is evident. Dueling sources is an amusing game but it gets old fast. I picked an unimpeachable source and even stuck to what could be definitely attributable, included information that was contrary to my central contention. The DOD analysis I found was far more damning but included too many combat related incidents, which might be argued are acts of asymmetrical warfare. Facts that you don't like you ignore, the same with analysis's. The falling WTC picture upset your delicate sensibilities? It it's a fact, just visually presented. Read "The Master and Margerta"

 

Since you like defining nouns....

précis - a concise summary of essential points, statements, or facts.

padding- lengthening writings with unnecessary material.

The fact that you consider empirical evidence that refutes your position as "padding" is laughable. Your "unimpeachable" source? We'll get back to that. Upset me? Hardly. I just find it utterly tasteless and void of decorum that you would trivialize a tragedy to try and win an argument on the internet because you have no other basis to argue on.

 

But lets look at your one source...The NCTC.

 

My Sources:

-The FBI

-Europol

-The NCTC

-And The National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism, which maintains the Global Terrorism Database, that includes over 125,000 terrorist attacks which receives the bulk of its funding from the Department of Homeland Security which:

• Contains information on over 125,000 terrorist attacks
• Currently the most comprehensive unclassified data base on terrorist events in the world
• Includes information on more than 58,000 bombings, 15,000 assassinations, and 6,000 kidnappings since 1970
• Includes information on at least 45 variables for each case, with more recent incidents including information on more than 120 variables
• Supervised by an advisory panel of 12 terrorism research experts
• Over 4,000,000 news articles and 25,000 news sources were reviewed to collect incident data from 1998 to 2013 alone"

 

Pointing out that Muslims have carried out terrorist attacks in the Middle East against foreign government soldiers and installations does not somehow magically disprove the theorem that the terrorists are acting out of wholly secular and political motivation. It, in fact, falls entirely within the narrative that the acts of terrorism are in response to the presence of US/Western military forces in the Middle East.

 

The United States, at varying times, has maintained military bases in Djibouti, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, and the United Arab Emirates. The United States has deployed troops to Lebanon twice, once in 1958 and again in 1983, and also to Somalia in 1992. The US Sixth Fleet patrols the eastern Mediterranean and the Fifth Fleet patrols the Persian Gulf with enough military force that they could rapidly strike anywhere in the region, a looming threat made all too real to the average Muslim when conservative pundits frequently proclaim that the United States should spread democracy via military force. This coupled with the fact that George W. Bush in all of his infinite wisdom decided to refer to the War on Terror as a crusade is what fuels terrorism in the Middle East.

 

It has been categorically disproven that Terrorists attack us because "they hate democracy" or because "they hate our way of life" or because "God tells them to". In actuality, all scholars of the subject have drawn the same conclusion. Terrorism is fueled by the threat of foreign invasion, the sense that Islamic countries are being oppressed by the west, and the military intervention of foreign countries on Islamic lands, as noted by the fact that organizations like ISIS were able to spring up in the wake of the United States invading Iraq. Prior to the United States invasion of Iraq, Al Qaeda in Iraq did not exist.

 

Here is a definition for you.

 

sub·stan·tive

adjective

ˈsəbstən(t)iv,səbˈstan(t)iv/

1.

having a firm basis in reality and therefore important, meaningful, or considerable.

 

So because Osama only commented on spreading islam throughout the world a couple times, and is only a small percenatge of his words, that means it doesn't count, and isn't one of his goals. Got it. Right. Uh huh.

 

Just out of idle curiosity, why do you take the side of the islamists? Do you sympathize with their cause? Think they are "right"? Think we should concede that part of the world to them? Just looking to give your cheering section some more material to work with?

 

And here you go again circling the drain where your argument comes back to insistently attacking myself since neither one of you has a substantial basis with which to support an actual argument. You ignore all empirical data and you ignore all fact. If you wish to live in fear hiding beneath your blankets that the big bad Muslims are coming to take you away, by all means, persist. However, there is no substantial basis for defining the terrorists by their religion when their religion is not the inspiration for their terrorism. Individuals with far more experience and far more education than yourselves, from various different walks of life, have all drawn the conclusion that terrorism is solely motivated by secular and political means. Naturally, since not a one of you has managed to substantiate your argument on anything other than fearmongering, flagwaving, and fallacious arguments it is clear to everyone who views this topic for time immemorial that you thoroughly lost this "debate" and I use that word loosely because neither one of you seems to actually comprehend what a debate is. So, yes, by all means, continue focusing on me, myself, and I as it only drives home the point that neither one of you has any idea what you're going on about.

 

For the record, the fact that he only mentions spreading Islam a minuscule fraction of the time proves that the spread of Islam is not his goal. He spends the vast majority of his time speaking about secular, political reasons. I have listed all the ways in which Al Qaeda is not actively trying to seek converts and you ignore them for the sake of your nonsensical fearmongering. Despite the fact that all empirical evidence and research into the subject draws a conclusion opposite of yours, you are going to continue throwing about baseless accusations. Congratulations, you found the 0.2% of the time that Osama bin Laden spoke of Islam.

 

He spoke about his personal life 1% of the time, so I suppose by your reckoning we'll be joining the Osama bin Laden family once those devious muslims conquer the world.

 

So lets look at what bin Laden said:

"For [subordination to the Jews and occupation of Arabia] and other acts of aggression and injustice, we have declared jihad against the US, because in our religion it is our duty to make jihad so that God's word is the one exalted to the heights and so that we drive the Americans away from all Muslim countries." -- Secular reason, driving Americans away from Muslim lands.

 

"Under the present circumstances [of Zionist-Crusader aggressions], and under the banner of the blessed awakening which is sweeping the world in general and the Islamic world in particular, I meet with you today." - Jewish-Christian aggression is the reason.

 

"I am one of the servants of Allah. We do our duty of fighting for the sake of the religion of Allah. It is also our duty to send a call to all the people of the world to enjoy this great light and to embrace Islam and experience the happiness in Islam. Our primary mission is nothing but the furthering of this religion. ..." A general, broad statement. This is not so much as saying Al Qaeda's goal is converts, or that he is conducting terrorism to gain covnerts. Dawah, or proselytizing, is the religious duty of every Muslim just as it is the religious duty of every Christian to try and 'save souls'.

 

Not that you're interested in context, but here is some:

"In America, we have a figure from history from 1897 named Teddy Roosevelt. He was a wealthy man, who grew up in a privileged situation and who fought on the front lines. He put together his own men - hand chose them - and went to battle. You are like the Middle East version of Teddy Roosevelt.

'I am one of the servants of Allah. We do our duty of fighting for the sake of the religion of Allah. It is also our duty to send a call to all the people of the world to enjoy this great light and to embrace Islam and experience the happiness in Islam. Our primary mission is nothing but the furthering of this religion. ... Let not the West be taken in by those who say that Muslims choose nothing but slaughtering. Their brothers in East Europe, in Turkey and in Albania have been guided by Allah to submit to Islam and to experience the bliss of Islam.Unlike those, the European and the American people and some of the Arabs are under the influence of Jewish media. ... '

 

The same Interview with Hamid Mir that is being quoted also has this exchange in it:

 

" HM: In your statement of Oct 7, you expressed satisfaction over the Sept 11 attacks, although a large number of innocent people perished in them, hundreds among them were Muslims. Can you justify the killing of innocent men in the light of Islamic teachings ?

OBL: This is a major point in jurisprudence. In my view, if an enemy occupies a Muslim territory and uses common people as human shield, then it is permitted to attack that enemy. For instance, if bandits barge into a home and hold a child hostage, then the child’s father can attack the bandits and in that attack even the child may get hurt."

And the quote they use is hilariously CUT. The site you linked to only shows:

"Hamid Mir: Can it be said that you are against the American government, not the American people?

Osama: Yes! We are carrying on the mission of our Prophet, Muhammad (peace be upon him). The mission is to spread the word of God, not to indulge [in] massacring people."

But if you look at the actual transcript of the interview.

"HM: Can it be said that you are against the American government, not the American people ?

OSB: Yes! We are carrying on the mission of our Prophet, Muhammad (peace be upon him). The mission is to spread the word of God, not to indulge massacring people. We ourselves are the target of killings, destruction and atrocities. We are only defending ourselves. This is defensive Jihad. We want to defend our people and our land. That is why I say that if we don’t get security, the Americans, too would not get security."

So next we have "I was ordered to fight the people until they say there is no god but Allah, and his prophet Muhammad."

Osama bin Laden was actually quoting Hadith, albeit incompletely, and going into the Hadith is venturing into the grounds of religious debate so we'll just nix that.

 

And here is a definition for you.

 

ob·tuse

əbˈt(y)o͞os,äbˈt(y)o͞os/Submit

adjective

1.

annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Xenoshi