Solving the Dual Wielding issue

[TurelAzure]

So, I realize that this was deemed impossible due to limitations on the actual engine itself allowing multiple types of weapons at the same time (or what I read) but I am wondering of possible solutions on the engine. Now, I realize all these solutions are animation intensive, but I will also say that I have animation/modelling/texturing experience (and degrees). I also have all of the tools for such an endeavor.

 

First off, since this is based on Oblivion, the idea for two attacks already exists, as weapons can have multiple effects: can one of these be a second shot/attack? How much of this was removed for Fallout? I see the potential for special dual-wield guns that simply have an enchant effect akin to a second shot and an animation to make the appearance of dual wielding.

 

Next, in a proposal for another solution for this issue: A separate button for an offhand attack that is effectively a very quick weapon swap that uses the secondary weapon. normally or in VATS. Think something like the old grenade button mod, but faster (if possible). This means you would have 'off-hand' new weapons, but it has the potential to be functional. Once again, this would require a bit of animation for each of the offhand weapon type, but that's only a couple of weeks worth of it. This is my favorite idea, personally. Also because it would allow for something like an alternate fire mode for most weapons.

 

And lastly, but the most complicated if the above do not work: basically, you make an invisible follower with no dialog that's very small, and sits at the same center point of your character that fires a weapon when your character does. Honestly, this seems more complicated than the above, so I'm hoping something like this is not required. But it was a thought regardless, and may have other uses for something.

 

I am willing to do the animation work for any of this, but I need people to either help me with scripting once FOSE comes out, or tell me how I'm way off and this is indeed not possible.

 

But I do ask that the posts are honest FEEDBACK or talks for getting it going. Trolls be trollin elsewhere, I hope.

[hoodz]

So, I realize that this was deemed impossible due to limitations on the actual engine itself allowing multiple types of weapons at the same time (or what I read) but I am wondering of possible solutions on the engine. Now, I realize all these solutions are animation intensive, but I will also say that I have animation/modelling/texturing experience (and degrees). I also have all of the tools for such an endeavor.

 

First off, since this is based on Oblivion, the idea for two attacks already exists, as weapons can have multiple effects: can one of these be a second shot/attack? How much of this was removed for Fallout? I see the potential for special dual-wield guns that simply have an enchant effect akin to a second shot and an animation to make the appearance of dual wielding.

 

Next, in a proposal for another solution for this issue: A separate button for an offhand attack that is effectively a very quick weapon swap that uses the secondary weapon. normally or in VATS. Think something like the old grenade button mod, but faster (if possible). This means you would have 'off-hand' new weapons, but it has the potential to be functional. Once again, this would require a bit of animation for each of the offhand weapon type, but that's only a couple of weeks worth of it. This is my favorite idea, personally. Also because it would allow for something like an alternate fire mode for most weapons.

 

And lastly, but the most complicated if the above do not work: basically, you make an invisible follower with no dialog that's very small, and sits at the same center point of your character that fires a weapon when your character does. Honestly, this seems more complicated than the above, so I'm hoping something like this is not required. But it was a thought regardless, and may have other uses for something.

 

I am willing to do the animation work for any of this, but I need people to either help me with scripting once FOSE comes out, or tell me how I'm way off and this is indeed not possible.

 

But I do ask that the posts are honest FEEDBACK or talks for getting it going. Trolls be trollin elsewhere, I hope.

 

I dont know anything about modding but id love to see this happen, wanted dual wielding since FO3

So good luck with this! I really hope you succeed!

[fronzelneekburm]

IMHO this is two topics you mix up - dual weapons and a secondary attack. Dual wielding could be fixed by simply adding a new grip for 2 handed weapons so the left hand doesnt support the right hand weapon but poses similar to the right hand (i.e. hold a gun in each hand). The gun model would simply need to be doubled and accordingly add a 1st person view model. To really have it "work" you'd also need to make a seperate projectile, at least for weapons where you can see the actual projectile like in energy weapons.

 

The engine is not really supporting this by default, but if you're willing to make the models, poses and projectiles this should work halfway nice.

 

I'd need to take a look at GECK again but i think a secondary attack is not supported, but i might be wrong.

[ecksile]

The reason it hasn't been done is because weapon meshes can only have a single projectile node. There for the second weapon wouldn't ever actually shoot anything no muzzle flash nothing. Also the game doesn't support adding new animations so in order to get the dual animation grip hold/reload/shoot/and all small aesthetics like jamming you would have to replace an already existing set of animations. It will also require a decent set or scripting and problem solving to be implemented correctly. The input needed for this to work isn't worth the end result...it would be really buggy and most likely look disgusting...

[TurelAzure]

The reason it hasn't been done is because weapon meshes can only have a single projectile node. There for the second weapon wouldn't ever actually shoot anything no muzzle flash nothing. Also the game doesn't support adding new animations so in order to get the dual animation grip hold/reload/shoot/and all small aesthetics like jamming you would have to replace an already existing set of animations. It will also require a decent set or scripting and problem solving to be implemented correctly. The input needed for this to work isn't worth the end result...it would be really buggy and most likely look disgusting...

 

First off, thank you SO much for this extremely informative post! More than I could ask for, seriously.

 

So, in response, I have a few questions since I'm looking for solutions:

If no second projectile node is allowed, what about moving a single one? As in, you alternate the fire: animate it so it switches spots between two guns. I realize at this point, though, it's pretty much just an aesthetic thing, with less substance, which is why I am more interested in the secondary attack.

 

As for it not being supported, I simply have to wonder then how the Oblivion mod Deadly Reflex got made, which has, like, 6 additional attacks, a new animation for each, and a new button for each. I realize the project is dead, but it still had most of the functions in it's initial 5 versions, and even toted mounted combat for the sixth. I think the project died only because it was a single person.

 

What I'm proposing is much smaller than Deadly Reflex, and even if there are some issues with how Deadly Reflex was implemented, it still points out that new animations can work.

[OniDaimyo]

Rather just have a weapon that looks like your shooting two guns or swinging two swords but it just does more damage but perhaps is less accurate. Don't need an actual two attacks for me.

[sarx8172]

Well for Deadly Reflex, I was under the impression that the numerous attack keys were just scripted to perform variations of a normal attack (adding a knockdown effect, etc.)

 

As for dual weapons, while you will definitely need to make a new animation, pose, model, etc. to show the double weapons. However, I wonder if you can't just edit the firing animation to look like the muzzle flashes on both weapons? That way, you could make the dual weapons into one equippable one, and make the gun fire two shots at a time (which I know can be done, it's in the vanilla game), giving the appearance of both having dual weapons and using both.

 

Although, it might look weird to fire both at the same time, but this is just a theory I'm putting out there. I have no experience modding, so if I'm way off...you get the idea. :)

[ecksile]

The animations in deadly reflex were scripted in using special idle animation calling with obse. The problem with this is it tends to break and can only be cleaned up so much and can be buggy. The control node thing still requires animation replacing because the animations sit in the kf files not the meshes. And I'm not even sure if you can add an animation to the node.

 

My solution to the problem was to put both guns in one nif and align them to a dual hand animation and put the projectile node in the middle of the 2 gun nifs. Then make a new projectile and muzzle flash. The thing with this is you'll get dual wield but it will be both guns shooting at the same time, you wont have control of them independently and you will also have to set up everything new for each set up guns you add. The only thing that will stay constant is the hand animations.

 

And this is only a theory once put to work I'm sure there will be other problems that you will run into. I just realized your also gonna need all new 3rd person animations for the dual wield...which you will also have to replace and lose another set of 3rd person animations in order to work.

[TurelAzure]

Hrm, well I now see the element of the impassible barrier. Shoot.

 

Has anyone tried talking to Bethesda for installing support into GECK to allow additional animations? I guess I'm more used to tools like the UT3 toolkit that just don't have the same kind of limitations.

 

I mean, I see that since they are relying on the .kf animation type, but I guess I don't get how no new animations can be added.

 

You can create an entirely new monster, yes? There were some geckos made for FO3 before, but were they using the Deathclaw animations?

If that's the case, are there any --already existing-- animations that could be used for the idea of the 'alternate' attack? Maybe actually do something like Deadly Reflex in terms of the manipulated idle animations too, but well, firing a gun is not nearly as hard. The only constant animation I see changing possibly is the holding a single firearm animation, where the character would be using just one arm at all times.

 

Thoughts?

[ecksile]

Not sure I understand your statement, but afaik special idle animations can only be used when called under certain circumstances. For instance a reload but I dont think they can be applied as an idle. I'm not a scripter just reciting what I have read around and seen them used for and that's old knowledge. I also asked for more animation control but alas us modders are only a very tiny percentage of the community so while they will implement our ideas into their games and profit off them, they wont give us the extra support we ask for..But I also read that they dont own the copyrights to everything and are limited in the amount of freedom to mod they can give us already with gamebryo and the geck.