Nexus permissions rules (Compilation Patch)

[DarkeWolf]

Do not upload compliations of other users work irrespective of whether the authors of the work you would like to compile together have agreed to your using their work in your compliation.

http://www.thenexusforums.com/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules#uploading

 

End of story.

 

Kal, your last post is one of the reasons why we have a rule like that. To avoid having to sort that kind of thing out, and not have to go thru the "he said, she said".

[Zenball]

Do not upload compliations of other users work irrespective of whether the authors of the work you would like to compile together have agreed to your using their work in your compliation.

http://www.thenexusforums.com/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules#uploading

 

End of story.

 

Kal, your last post is one of the reasons why we have a rule like that. To avoid having to sort that kind of thing out, and not have to go thru the "he said, she said".

 

 

I wasn't aware compilations were not allowed full stop. Is this rule overridden if there is original content alongside the compiled content, for example, Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul? If this is the case, there is original content in the compilation patch (mine and modders who have personally submitted fixes not found anywhere else). So technically, it is not a pure compilation anymore.

 

The only issue I have in all this is that the archaic and time-consuming (in terms of waiting for and monitoring replies mostly) 'PM for permission' system is at odds with how much emphasis is placed on gaining permission. Not all modders are on the nexus every day, and not all modders set up their permissions when releasing a file to accurately reflect whether they allow use or not.

 

Before anyone responds that I am being lazy and impatient, I have actually written down some ideas for how the site could not only go some way to automate the permissions process, but also actually reward modders who have their work integrated into someone else's, encouraging co-creation and community rather than jealous guarding. I believe the endorsement system as its stands has a great deal to do with some people jealously guarding their work - they do not want someone else to gain credit through their own work because as it stands the nexus does not recognise mods that are useful as resources to other modders.

 

I will post my detailed thoughts on this when I get back from work as it's in a text document on my laptop.

[KalChoedan]

Do not upload compliations of other users work irrespective of whether the authors of the work you would like to compile together have agreed to your using their work in your compliation.

http://www.thenexusforums.com/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules#uploading

 

End of story.

 

Kal, your last post is one of the reasons why we have a rule like that. To avoid having to sort that kind of thing out, and not have to go thru the "he said, she said".

 

I'm honestly not sure that this qualifies though. You would know better, but let's just say for the sake of argument that Zen had released this as "Zen's Unofficial Patch" and never used the word "compilation". He could have enclosed a list of mods that you shouldn't use alongside his mod because their fixes were included. This seems to be fundamentally different than the types of things (my favourite mods etc) that are described in the rule you linked there. It can't be the first time this has happened. Am I completely wrong to think that had he taken that route, this "ZUP" wouldn't have even been on your radar (as far as permissions and the like go, anyway?)

 

I think it's also worth noting that combing technical fixes is a qualitatively different matter than a simple compilation of favourite mods. Some fixes may simply not work together at all unless integrated properly and not everyone is sufficiently competent with (or interested in) the editor to be able to do this themselves. Zen isn't just hitting a magic merge button and releasing the results, there is an amount of work he has to put in to get all this running together even over and above the fixes of his own that he has incorporated.

 

I think that although you are doing a great thing here in trying to provide extra protection for modder's work, by extending that protection to cover every .esp file hosted here you are hurting the mod community. Creative authors are the ones who need your protection, especially people who are building entirely new .esp based content, because unlike the mesh/texture/sound file guys, they don't even have copyright to protect them as Beth owns all the .esp's. But technical authors who are releasing very tiny fixes that really just address typos or oversights in the base game not only do not need that protection but I believe it is important for the health of the community that they explicitly do not get that protection. The technical modding community has always been a bit incestuous - if someone comes up with a new fix for something, everyone is at liberty to check it out in the editor and see how it was done, learn from it and incorporate it into their own mods. They don't need any permission to do that, not even should they then choose to release it publicly (per Beth anyway), and that's just as well because if they did it would all but kill the technical modder community. I'd go so far as to suggest that any modder who has created a fix of this ilk and insists on people getting his permission to reuse it or worse refuses permission has both misunderstood what rights Bethesda has granted him (it may even qualify as a breach of their EULA) and is on an ego trip, and are themselves harmful to the community. You shouldn't be encouraging or empowering these people!

 

The issue with simply not being able to tell the difference between a "plagiarised work" and a "reproduced work" is important too. If there is fundamentally no way to tell the difference between the two (except for "he said, she said"!), then there is absolutely no way for you to make a fair decision should a dispute arise. You are setting yourselves up for a no-win scenario where whatever decision you make will appear to be arbitrary and capricious. I'm sure you don't want that. This also leads to the scenario I described above where you all you are actually achieving is to encourage people not to give credit, again, not something you wanted, I'm sure.

 

Clearly as fixes become more complex it gets harder and harder to determine which mods are purely technical and which contain creative elements; I do understand why you don't want to get involved in drawing that particular line. Where exactly is the point where "fixing typos and logic flaws in Bethesda's script" becomes "basically ripping out the whole script and writing it from scratch"? It's a tough one. I think however the fact that certain types of mod absolutely do not require any kind of permission to use is fundamental to the success of this modding community (at least those parts of it most interested in fixing bugs), so if there is going to be a permission system at all, that line has to be drawn.

[sesom]

@Kal_Choedan

What you don't get is that Zen isn't the victim here.

 

Making a game fix package is great responsibility and work. As I explained earlier in the Bethsoft thread these mods get popular very fast and should be something like a role model for other modders. A simple "I don't care about permissions" isn't enough.

 

The other thing is if Zen would be playing nice I am sure a lot of modders (including me) would come to help him to make the missing fixes he didn't get the permissions for. His attitude and the downloaders who cried "It is so unfair that this is not available anymore because the other modders which his worked is based off are so bad people..." stopped me from helping out.

 

It's about community and respect not about "I don't care!"

[KalChoedan]

@Kal_Choedan

What you don't get is that Zen isn't the victim here.

 

[snip]

 

His attitude [...] stopped me from helping out.

 

What "attitude" are you referring to, sesom? Zenball has bent over backwards to do the "right" thing every step of the way, even when the "right" thing as dictated by the Nexus may not in fact be the "right" thing in the bigger picture, as I've tried to explain. He initially gave credit to every other author whose work had in any way influenced his (which is already more than is required by Bethsoft's EULA). Once the Nexus took his file down he has been working hard to get all the permissions required by the Nexus to allow him to re-release this for the Nexus community, again, even though he doesn't need to do this and could just release his work on another site with zero repercussions.

[Zenball]

@Kal_Choedan

What you don't get is that Zen isn't the victim here.

 

Making a game fix package is great responsibility and work. As I explained earlier in the Bethsoft thread these mods get popular very fast and should be something like a role model for other modders. A simple "I don't care about permissions" isn't enough.

 

The other thing is if Zen would be playing nice I am sure a lot of modders (including me) would come to help him to make the missing fixes he didn't get the permissions for. His attitude and the downloaders who cried "It is so unfair that this is not available anymore because the other modders which his worked is based off are so bad people..." stopped me from helping out.

 

It's about community and respect not about "I don't care!"

 

Hi sesom,

 

I'm sorry if you think my attitude has been bad throughout this, I've tried my best to be civil and reasonable, and play nice as you put it. Perhaps you think that the post I made in which I stated that I hadn't asked permission for all the fixes included was made with a bad attitude. I don't know if you've read the post so I will reproduce it:

 

No, I haven't got permission, but these are essentially bug fixes for the original game rather than new content and sooner or later someone would have come up with them anyway. I've done this in good faith that it will be seen as a service to the community and the important thing for me is that the authors who fixed things are recognized and thanked. To be honest I think it would just be a waste of everyone's time if I went around asking permission for these. Best to get them out there so everyone can have a more enjoyable game. Everyone, if you use this, PLEASE download and endorse the original files listed in the read me. That's all I ask. Thanks.

 

I don't really think that anybody could construe this as indicative of a bad attitude - but this may not be the reason for why you say I have one, so if it's not please let me know. Nowhere have I said "I don't care about permissions", so please do not try to defame me by putting in quotes something that has never been expressed by me. Surely the effort I put into crediting and providing links shows you that I care very much about the modders who have contributed.

 

I don't want to make enemies here. I have been depicted as some kind of thief, my contribution to the community has been denigrated (you called it a 'borg' patch, for example), and none of this is fair.

 

I will post my ideas towards combating this kind of situation later today. I would welcome your input.

 

Zen

[Dark0ne]

If we thought there was a bad attitude in how this compilation was made then Zen would have been banned rather than spoken to in private. As it is we're aware there was no malice and instead just more of a misunderstanding or naivety of how much we try to look after author's rights here. I'm aware this compilation is a good thing for the community but I will not step on the principles that make this site a haven for many mod authors in the name of convenience for others.

[KalChoedan]

If we thought there was a bad attitude in how this compilation was made then Zen would have been banned rather than spoken to in private. As it is we're aware there was no malice and instead just more of a misunderstanding or naivety of how much we try to look after author's rights here. I'm aware this compilation is a good thing for the community but I will not step on the principles that make this site a haven for many mod authors in the name of convenience for others.

 

I think it's the difference between "looking after author's rights" and "giving authors new rights that they shouldn't really have" that is fundamentally where we disagree here, Robin. I think I've made the case for why giving authors undue additional rights is bad for the community, and you don't seem to have disagreed with any of my points. Is this simply not something you are willing to discuss?

[Zenball]

If we thought there was a bad attitude in how this compilation was made then Zen would have been banned rather than spoken to in private. As it is we're aware there was no malice and instead just more of a misunderstanding or naivety of how much we try to look after author's rights here. I'm aware this compilation is a good thing for the community but I will not step on the principles that make this site a haven for many mod authors in the name of convenience for others.

 

I think it's the difference between "looking after author's rights" and "giving authors new rights that they shouldn't really have" that is fundamentally where we disagree here, Robin. I think I've made the case for why giving authors undue additional rights is bad for the community, and you don't seem to have disagreed with any of my points. Is this simply not something you are willing to discuss?

 

Kal, whilst I appreciate and agree with many of your points, and am much appreciative of your support, it is simply the case that Dark0ne owns and runs this site, and for the most part does this incredibly well - his decision is final, and that is that. I respect the nexus sites and use them frequently, so I do not just want to upload the patch somewhere else, as this would be disrespectful and actually damaging to the modding community.

 

The best way to ameliorate the situation is to find a way to improve how the site works with regards to permissions. The recent additions are the first step towards this, but more balance can be achieved. Moving the discussion in this direction is the best way forwards now.

[sesom]

@Zenball

Sorry! I used to harsh words that I didn't meant (english isn't my first language) in this standing. All got very emotional with all the complains that the patch was/is offline (haven't looked yet but it seems that most of the needed permissions are already granted if I look in the Bethsoft thread).

 

A few of my FO3 mods I released on Nexus got borged (unasked merged and/or not proper credited) But they are not released here. So I am a bit sensitive in this matter. I am not discussing this further to avoid further misunderstandings.

 

If scripting help is needed simple PM is enough ;) .