What's going on?

[RunningBare]

I've been a member of the modding community for nearly 3 years, I create and share my mods freely, my reward is seeing folk enjoy the mods.

 

But lately it seems a new trend is starting, modders asking for payment, in my opinion this has never been about cash and should never be about cash, it's about the community sharing ideas and mods, please do not taint one of the best things that ever happened to pc gaming.

 

If this has already been said I'm sorry, but I had to say something.

[gsmanners]

I tend to say caveat emptor myself. I do agree that asking for money is a little tacky, although if it's in the form of donations, it wouldn't bother me even slightly (I just wouldn't donate).

[RunningBare]

I tend to say caveat emptor myself. I do agree that asking for money is a little tacky, although if it's in the form of donations, it wouldn't bother me even slightly (I just wouldn't donate).

I do not even agree with asking for donations, this moderator puts the reason best

http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1143095-wipz-xfo-nv-the-ultimate-fallout-overhaul-for-new-vegas/page__view__findpost__p__16708514

[VictoriaG]

Seen this most in the Sims 2 community with their pay sites (which are technically illegal).

[gsmanners]

I do not even agree with asking for donations, this moderator puts the reason best

http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1143095-wipz-xfo-nv-the-ultimate-fallout-overhaul-for-new-vegas/page__view__findpost__p__16708514

 

Link refers to:

 

Yes, any content is the sole property of Bethesda Softworks.

 

That includes the time that they and Obsidian put into providing the GECK for you, for free, to share your mods for free with the members of this community. That includes the forums provided for you for free on which you can discuss your mods; and the GECK Wiki to teach you how to make the mods.

 

I'm sure that when they were working - probably unpaid overtime - to get that GECK in working order for you to make your mods, it was not with the intention that you should solicit donations for your work. If they wanted you to solicit donations for your work, they would not have made it so abundantly clear that mods are not to be charged for in any way, shape or form.

 

For your time! What else would you possibly be charging for! And no, you may not!

 

Every other member of this community provides their endeavours for free, and no modder works in isolation. All of us need the help and support of other members, whether it's contributed time and resources, hosting bandwidth, advice or just feedback. Everyone puts in for free, everyone gets the files for free. I've released 139 mods for this community, of which four took over six months and two took over one year to make. Others have far eclipsed that: Tamriel Rebuilt, for example, has taken about eight years so far. We all share our time and effort freely as a co-operative community endeavour so that we can all experience an enhanced game.

 

That is how it works.

 

1) Excuse me, but I don't think copyright law in the US at least permits you to claim ownership of derivative works (but then, you'd have to ask your lawyer on that point).

 

2) The time that Bethesda "donates" to the GECK is not generously donated. It's part of a marketing campaign. They are implicitly admitting that we are being employed in troubleshooting their product for them. If anything, they should be paying us to use GECK.

 

3) Any intention on their part to limit our rights to works that we create (even with their tools) could be construed by a judge as an overreaching limitation of copyright law. There's also the First Sale doctrine to consider and many other rights that may be infringed in such an implication. Once again, if you're being harassed by Bethesda in this manner, you may have legal recourse, so I would suggest talking to a lawyer.

 

4) If Bethesda was illegally forcing their developers to work "unpaid overtime," I see that as a criminal matter between those two parties (preferably to be sorted out by the appropriate authorities). It does not pertain to us, whatsoever.

 

5) Their demands (if such demands do exist) that we not charge for what is unquestionably our work is not only illegal and immoral, but also completely hypocritical. After all, they aren't giving away Fallout New Vegas.

 

6) We support each other. That is true. For that generosity, I am obligated to show my thanks. I don't charge for my mods, but I don't see how making immoral demands on each other improves our community.

 

7) Just because one moderator claims that this is how "it works," doesn't necessarily make it so. Especially when said moderator then cowardly hid behind a lock in order to censor any potentially rational opinions (like the ones I list above).

[RunningBare]

 

5) Their demands (if such demands do exist) that we not charge for what is unquestionably our work is not only illegal and immoral, but also completely hypocritical. After all, they aren't giving away Fallout New Vegas.

And who is twisting the modders arm to create the mods?, they do voluntarly, and if most are honest they do it for themselves first to fill a gap they see in the game.

6) We support each other. That is true. For that generosity, I am obligated to show my thanks. I don't charge for my mods, but I don't see how making immoral demands on each other improves our community.

I'm not making any moral demands, I'm asking that the community don't start down that slippery slope

 

7) Just because one moderator claims that this is how "it works," doesn't necessarily make it so. Especially when said moderator then cowardly hid behind a lock in order to censor any potentially rational opinions (like the ones I list above).

The thread was locked because donations were solicited, whether that was his true motive is besides the point, it's against forum rules.

[ripple]

1) Excuse me, but I don't think copyright law in the US at least permits you to claim ownership of derivative works (but then, you'd have to ask your lawyer on that point).

 

Indeed. Many intertventions in this and similar conversations have tended to confalte 'copyright' with EULA. Although they can be connected, especially when a company attempts to use the EULA to extend the scope (or perhaps more accurately, to circumvent the limitations) of copyright.

 

2) The time that Bethesda "donates" to the GECK is not generously donated. It's part of a marketing campaign. They are implicitly admitting that we are being employed in troubleshooting their product for them. If anything, they should be paying us to use GECK.

 

In addition, all users are now already unpaid beta-testers for their software. More importantly, this is not just an isolated instance of one company's business practice, but a general cultural trend in (particularly) the (PC) game industry.

 

4) If Bethesda was illegally forcing their developers to work "unpaid overtime," I see that as a criminal matter between those two parties (preferably to be sorted out by the appropriate authorities). It does not pertain to us, whatsoever.

 

Well, it does pertain to us in the sense that the users become part of the 'trickle down' effect of these tightening practices of cut-backs, streamlining, maximization, externalized, etc.

 

6) We support each other. That is true. For that generosity, I am obligated to show my thanks. I don't charge for my mods, but I don't see how making immoral demands on each other improves our community.

 

I would not like to see mods go pay, as I would not pay (but I certainly understand the desire to be compensated for one's labour). Nor would I ask for donations for mods, not that I think my small contributions are good enough to solicit even the smallest monetary compensations. But when these companies shameless exploit modders and users but provide little in the way of support (other than a stripped down version of one of the tools used to develop the game), it is hypocritical. These game developers can most certainly compensate the modding community not through money but through support. I think the modding community deserves more support from game developers they mod for, not more attempts to police and ostracize creative modding projects (eg. Morroblivion) because they prioritize the desire to cover potential liabilities. Why are modders expected to engage in the kinds of open-source community practices that the game development companies would never condone themselves?

 

And who is twisting the modders arm to create the mods?, they do voluntarly, and if most are honest they do it for themselves first to fill a gap they see in the game.

 

Not this again. Some people have such narrow understandings of "choice/force" and "freedom/oppression" But then this is part of the "strategy" for--and what is counted on by-- companies that engage in the practices we discuss above, no?

Edited November 22, 2010 by ripple

[RunningBare]

Not this again. Some people have such narrow understandings of "choice/force" and "freedom/oppression" But then this is part of the "strategy" for--and what is counted on by-- companies that engage in the practices we discuss above, no?

I know full well the motives of the companies, after all they are a business, it does not change anything, modders choose to spend their time on modding, you can spout the merits of choice to me all you like, but when I create a mod, no one is standing over me and saying get it done!

[frank lee]

The Same but different??

 

I've seen people offering payment for specific mods. . . Which didn't trouble me. If someone is desperate for their favorite Battle-waitress costume from some obscure cartoon and lacks the ability or the time to create one, surly paying someone to do a mod that they (and possibly one other person on the planet) would download is the only way to go?

 

Demanding money for a mod, same but different and the difference seems to be if I paid for something I'd not only want a guarantee that it was of serviceable quality but God help the seller if it breaks something. I installed a mod or two yesterday, carelessly and crocked my whole FONV installation, No biggie, it was my own fault but if I'd paid for something that had done that. . .

[RunningBare]

The Same but different??

 

Demanding money for a mod, same but different and the difference seems to be if I paid for something I'd not only want a guarantee that it was of serviceable quality but God help the seller if it breaks something. I installed a mod or two yesterday, carelessly and crocked my whole FONV installation, No biggie, it was my own fault but if I'd paid for something that had done that. . .

How would you take them to task for it?, at best all I could see is a banning, heck people have problems taking official companies to task with broken buggy games, this is the very slope I'm talking about.