Pardon me, I Apoligize!

[Daedthr]

 

American media is driven by a hysterical narrative that says it’s open season on blacks, but yet ignores the massive black violent crime epidemic. Those who have never lived in the US but use US media get this hackneyed narrative that is the opposite of reality.

One notices this arrogance from Europeans on discussions about crime in America. They present the party line (blacks are being discriminated against by employers, the police, white flight, the educational system and basically everyone for no good reason whatsoever) as obvious truth and hint at the ingrained bigotry of white Americans as the primary cause of black dysfunction. There's not the least bit of interest in investigating the mechanisms that turn black ghettos into civilizational wastelands; I get the feeling that European journalists, as well-travelled and over-educated as they may be, cannot even fathom a reason for persistent racial inequality and strife other than irrational hatred.

That said, most police in major cities and suburbs are worthless. They abuse their authority, are not very smart, and rape taxpayers with their bloated early retirements. Most of them have an "us vs. them" mentality which enables their worst inclinations. They will happily shoot you and your dog. Increasingly it's not the law you need to stay within but a cop's good graces.

 

 

I don't really see your point here, you seem to be saying that Europeans are interested only in the sensationalism regarding racial inequality in the US rather than the reasons for it, other than that I don't see what you're trying to get at?

 

While I don't doubt that sensationalism and disapproval of American racial equality is common here, it is not fair to say to that we don't understand the reasons behind it. Several European countries continue to have as much racial inequality as America does today (I have a German friend who lived in a community in Germany where there was huge amounts of Racism towards the Turkish). In my country whilst black/white segregation is relatively low, there still exists very real divisions in White/Asian relations and there are some communities that comply hugely to a racially skewed demographic (though this is not actually Racism). For instance the 2011 London riots began over a police shooting of a black man, but like the Baltimore riots spiralled into opportunistic looting. We also have places like Birmingham, which has a huge Asian community, which continues to cause issues particularly in education.

 

What we do not tend to have as much in my country is the same degree of divisions between ethnic groups and institutions like the police. There certainly exists some, but it's just not on the same scale, it rarely reaches the news. The real divisions between the people and the police here are arguably over class, with there still being some degree off enmity towards the police in the north over the brutality they showcased in the 1970s and 80s.

 

However we certainly do understand the causes, and what you say about us not being able to fathom a reason other than 'irrational hatred' is wrong. Racism is irrational, it is always irrational, but it does not always come from a hatred.

 

In fact, funnily enough Racism from hatred is rather seldom in Western Countries today: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/10061025/Worlds-most-racially-intolerant-countries-mapped.html

 

Racial inequality is really made prominent not by hatred, but by class, stereotyping, crime, indifference to highly non-culturally diverse communities, and a countries history.

 

If I had to put a cause to the difference in racial equality in the US and the UK, I'd say it would be down to the countries histories. Both our countries have a history of racial oppression, but the US was quite literally born into this oppression, whereas for Britain most racial oppression happened off of our own soil in the colonies. When the America was first colonised by European's (I'm not talking Spanish Conquistadors and the Aztec's, rather the colonising of America by Britain, France, the Dutch, etc.) the Native American's were treated horrendously, driven off their own lands and denied rights by the invaders of their own country. Then you have the British and Spanish using slaves to cultivate crops in the US, a legacy which continued past the war of independence. Now, slavery in the UK ended in 1833, and ended just over 30 years later in 1865 in the US. However the two abolitions were very different. The abolition in the UK was executed through legislation with the Slavery Abolition Act, the only real fight happened in Parliament (a film I'm rather fond of that tells this story is Amazing Grace, worth a watch). However in the US, slavery and it's abolition was one of the central causes of the Civil War, which was the deadliest conflict in your history. This meant that your abolition really the result of war rather than democratic decision, which generated huge social issues for much of the country, particularly as the pro-slavery Confederate States (there were also some Union ones) now had their resentment for the abolition of slavery mixed with that of their loss of the civil war. Racial inequality continued in both countries long after the abolition of slavery, and despite what many people in my country seem to think, we were not really much faster at dealing with it than the US was, the timeline's are strikingly similar. The difference is in the roots of it's demise, the greatest step towards defeating racial inequality in the UK was made in Parliament, the greatest step towards defeating racial inequality in the US was made on the battlefield.

 

So if I had to put racial inequality down to anything in your country, it would not be that white hatred or bigotry, it would be the backlash the Civil war had in creating divisions in America, which were then translated onto the matter of racial equality. You might think this all seems to long ago, but cycles of racial inequality, divisions between social groups and the police, and the divisions created by war are self-perpetuating. They go from generation to generation, because ultimately it is the environment somebody is brought up in that defines their views, and the results of civil war create divisions in communities that will continue for generations if left unchecked. In the case of the US I would believe that these divisions easily became entangled with the problem of racial inequality, which leaves you with the problems you have today - some highly segregated communities with poor views of other groups or institutions.

 

However this is really just a theory, there are plenty of other factors in a case as complex as the US's, but either way you are wrong, European's are not just concerned with the sensationalism of racial inequality in the US and neither do they believe all white American's to be bigoted. We understand just as well as you do that Racism doesn't work like that, and while the case of the US is quite unique, we are perfectly able to evaluate it with the knowledge we do have (I'll also point out that we're far more likely to do this objectively, not being acquainted with the various cultural influences that exist in your country).

 

Everything I have mentioned before now has been in relation to Black-Police relations, rather than Racism as a whole. Not once have I stated that I believe the police force to be racist on the grounds of irrational hatred, in fact I have not even stated that I believe the whole force to be Racist at all. What I have stated is that Racism is alive and well in America and that there certainly are some cases of institutionalised Racism in the police (look at the link I provided earlier in relation to police resignations over the appointment of a black mayor), and that there seems to exist a serious lack of rapport between the police and certain communities. None of this have I attributed to irrational hatred, indeed the latter of the problems I attributed to the self-perpetuating anti-police cycle that is present in every Western country in the world. I've provided numerous pieces of evidence for both claims, and if you have not taken the time to go back and look through them, that is not my problem. I'll also have you know that most of them are not from US media sources, as I'm quite aware of the reputations the like of Fox News and other US media outlets have.

 

The fact that you call European's who evaluate these problems arrogant, when in fact they come to look at these problems as an outsider and will therefore more often than not be far more objective than US analysts ever will, seems rather hypocritical. Maybe it's time to consider the idea that 'over-educated' and well-travelled foreigners, actually might be able to make valid evaluations without being taken in by the sensationalism that haunts your country and it's people? *Gasps*

Edited May 21, 2015 by Daedthr

[dpgillam]

I would say that the primary point was that you perceive a division based on ethnicity rather than on economic disparity.

 

While black Americans snivel this lie, repeated by the media and the American Left Wing, the sad fact is that black America considers it "racism", "bigotry", and inequality that they be expected to live by the same laws and social conventions demanded of the other 75.1% of the nation, with no exceptions or special considerations. In other words, to them, truly equal justice is "unfair" and "racist". Which is why most people in America outside of the Leftist idiots have learned to ignore their whining, and treat them with the contempt they have so rightly earned.

[Daedthr]

I would say that the primary point was that you perceive a division based on ethnicity rather than on economic disparity.

 

While black Americans snivel this lie, repeated by the media and the American Left Wing, the sad fact is that black America considers it "racism", "bigotry", and inequality that they be expected to live by the same laws and social conventions demanded of the other 75.1% of the nation, with no exceptions or special considerations. In other words, to them, truly equal justice is "unfair" and "racist". Which is why most people in America outside of the Leftist idiots have learned to ignore their whining, and treat them with the contempt they have so rightly earned.

 

Hmmm, I do understand that in some circumstances people will just sometimes "play the race card", but you'd still be wrong to say that all racism is just 'truly equal justice', racism does still exist, and it exists in every country in the world.

 

The point about economic disparity can't be understated though, I think ultimately it is this that keeps fuelling the fire. Bring people out of poverty and a lot of problems tend to go, ethnic divisions would certainly decline. But again, you can't state that the entirety of these divisions come from poverty or difference in economic conditions, it is likely a the most major contributor, but I still feel that it would be an insult to the memory of many to suggest that the divisions that cost them their lives were purely economic, and not in any way ethnic. There is also the question of what is the ultimate cause of the economic disparity? There is plenty of evidence to suggest that ethnicity plays a large part in one's chances to get a job, to get into college, to get a loan, etc. http://thinkprogress.org/education/2014/06/25/3452887/education-race-gap/

 

An argument can certainly be made that it is ethnic divisions in the first place that then caused an economic disparity, which in turn exacerbates ethnic divisions and so on and so on. It is yet another vicious circle, and the only way to break it is to pull one half out, either the economic disparity or the ethnic divisions, as they cause each other. As for which one would be easier to pull out, I cannot say, because I don't live in the US. Would it be easier to try and bring these communities out of poverty, or to try to eliminate any ethnic gap in employability, application for higher education, pay, etc.?

[HeyYou]

But bringing people out of poverty is un-american. We can't do that, the democrats would lose votes......

 

If we wanted to bring people out of poverty, we wouldn't be exporting all of our middle class jobs overseas, nor would we be allowing 11 million plus illegals to stay. At this point in time, we are actually putting more people INTO poverty. Exactly the opposite of what the government tells us it wants to do. Too bad actions don't match words.... but then, it's about what I expect from politicians.

[MotoSxorpio]

But bringing people out of poverty is un-american. We can't do that, the democrats would lose votes......

 

If we wanted to bring people out of poverty, we wouldn't be exporting all of our middle class jobs overseas, nor would we be allowing 11 million plus illegals to stay. At this point in time, we are actually putting more people INTO poverty. Exactly the opposite of what the government tells us it wants to do. Too bad actions don't match words.... but then, it's about what I expect from politicians.

...as well as our national debt deeper in the black.

[MajKrAzAm]

Daedthr, so Mike Brown and the Baltimore rioters acted the way they did because of slavery? They lost control of any rational thought process, empathy, civic duty or shame and devolved into rampaging trolls because of generations of inequality caused by slavery? Where is their moral agency? Mike Brown was killed because he acted impulsively and violently. His death is the consequence of his own actions.

 

Your argument regarding slavery is questionable, Britain never had a sizable slave population and yet has inequality between races, why?

[Daedthr]

Daedthr, so Mike Brown and the Baltimore rioters acted the way they did because of slavery? They lost control of any rational thought process, empathy, civic duty or shame and devolved into rampaging trolls because of generations of inequality caused by slavery? Where is their moral agency? Mike Brown was killed because he acted impulsively and violently. His death is the consequence of his own actions.

 

Your argument regarding slavery is questionable, Britain never had a sizable slave population and yet has inequality between races, why?

 

Of course Mike Brown didn't act the way he did because of slavery, you're missing the point. He didn't wrestle with Wilson through the car window because he thought he "Better teach this white slave master a lesson!", he did it because he felt to respect (which he should have) for Wilson as a police officer. The people in Batlimore rioted because they thought the police were being unjust, they resent the police force. You want to know where this resentment comes from, it comes from a lack of rapport between some black communities and the police force. As I have already laboriously explained, when a social group begins to develop an enmity for the police, you have a self-perpetuating cycle. The cycle will keep restarting itself, because something happens to create a division, resulting in a social group harbouring resentment towards the police. This resentment is what causes people like Brown to react to the police in the way they did, and when that happens you get fatalities in the cause of justice. But because the original division was an unjust one, the social group then sees future encounters as also being unjust, therefore their resentment grows and the cycle restarts of an even greater magnitude from before. This is not something that is difficult to grasp.

 

Eventually cycles like this should fade out, because all it takes is one generation to go through life without such notable encounters, and then the divide begins to be forgotten. But in the case of the racial divide you have, the magnitude of the first division (which was slavery and continued racial hate and inequality for generations afterwards due to the nature of the abolition as being a civil war) is so high that it cannot be forgotten in a generation of two. The injustices suffered for centuries have been burned into racial memory (as they should be, they should not be forgotten just because we do not want to look back on our people's failings), and as historically the police have been meant to be the keeps of justice, there should be absolutely no surprise that a divide exists between them and the black community now, ultimately because of events centuries ago that were never dealt with decisively (after the abolition in 1865, black people were actually taken out of the franchise, equality continued to decline after that one great leap).

 

As for your mentioned difference between the UK and the US, as I have already stated, Black-White/Police/Institutional relations here are far far stronger than over in the states. So what you've said is true, Britain never did have a comparatively sizeable domestic slave population, and yes there still remains racial inequality, but racial inequality between whites and blacks here is extremely limited. Racial inequality here is far more prevalent in White-Eastern European relations, and also White-Asian Relations. So you see we never had this huge great cause of division in Britain domestically, which partially accounts for our relatively stronger relations between Black communities and White communities, and the police. As for why we might have poorer White-Asian Relations, it would most likely be due to the influx of immigrants after WW2, and the associated displacement fears felt by the populace at the time that perpetuated themselves for the next 50 years. By now however, these communities have become so integrated that relations are very much better. The same cannot be said for White-Eastern European relations here, because the divide here has been much more recently, namely Blair's open-door police in the 2000s and the Inter-EU immigration policy allowing vast numbers of immigrants in, which is something the working class resented due to perceived loss of jobs.

 

There is a consistent theme with inequality, which is that of a cycle of division started by some injustice (or perceived injustice), which continues for a few generations but gradually declines as the two groups integrate. The problem with the US is that the nature of this first injustice was so great and so close to home (in addition to being one of the central causes behind the deadliest conflict for the US in history) that it will not decline, because relations got worse in the generations that followed. This is why you have these divisions, this is why certain black communities might harbour issues with the police, because of a vicious circle that, yes, started with the injustice of slavery.

 

No, most of these communities or people will not even acknowledge that this resentment has anything to do with slavery centuries ago, but will attribute it to Racism and racial inequality, which like it or not, was a problem that started with slavery. So you see you missed the point, no Brown and the rioters didn't act this way with slavery in mind, they acted this way because of divisions, divisions that reach way back into History and that start with slavery and the continued inequality after abolition, intermingled with bad feeling from the Civil War. I was discussing the First Cause, you seemed to be thinking I was discussing the immediate cause.

[HeyYou]

Civll war ended 150 years ago..... is this going to continue to be an excuse for poor behavior?

 

Racism works both ways. The incidents of perceived 'police injustice' get lots of press. The incidents of black on black crime get glossed over. No one talks about that. What we end up with is a legacy of 'we hate everyone that isn't like us.' Not to mention that Mike Brown was a thug in general....... and probably still suffered from the delusion of the young, that he was 'immortal'..... (the "it'll never happen to me" syndrome.)

 

Now, I will grant that racism has been around for quite some time, and really not a lot has changed, attitude-wise, since the civil war. But, it is NOT just the 'white slave masters' perpetuating it. Takes two to tango.

[MajKrAzAm]

What you are saying validates black violence. It puts black violence in its own special category, where Americans are prohibited from interfering until blacks feel ‘respected’ by the Police, or grow out of their resentment. This is both pathetic and dangerous. What group of people in the world would permit their inner cities to turn into civilization wastelands and then be morally blackmailed to stop policing those areas?

This is exactly what is happening in America. The media’s hysteria over dead black criminals has created a culture among Police where they now fear arresting blacks in case they end up like Darren Wilson.

Edited May 24, 2015 by MajKrAzAm

[HeyYou]

I suppose we could just wall off those areas, and let the residents therein take care of themselves. Eventually, one of two things would happen, they would figure it out, and get a handle on themselves, or, they would all be dead. Either way, problem solved.