Mature Discussion: "Offensive" Mods

[FatherAzerun]

I double checked the terms of Service so I hope this is indeed the right and proper place for this discussion. I ma an educator and so I do believe there is a time and place for discussions, and I truly hope the FO: NV mod community can discuss the following in a non-flame, non-trolling kind of way. Of course this is the internet and I might simply be naive.

 

====================================

 

I noticed recently two mod sets had been uploaded that had a rather virulent community reaction, so much so the moderators of teh Nexus Forums were forced to step in and clean up the threads: Deutschland Atombombe's recent series of Nazi-themed SS clothing uploads, and Kopkilla's Army men. Each of these mods offered something to Fallout: New Vegas that understandably was very controversial and the uploaders, with various degrees of success, and the moderators, with a much higher degree of success, managed to keep things civil.An endorsement file is certainly not a place to discuss how much we like the idea of a mod's content or not -- if, for example, you just don't want your stoves to work in Fallout, skip over the cooking mods.But when it comes to deeply personal issues, there is a plce to discuss where does one draw teh line in terms of what makes an offensive mod?

 

Kopkilla's Army men postulates that it serves greater immersion in the Fallout universe for women to be treated more poorly in the NCR army. His mod seeks to demote female rangers, give them civilian jobs, and make teh army men-only. Personally, I completely disagree with his interpretation of the Lore. After all, women have not only risen up to extremely high positions in teh post-Apocalyptic wasteland (President Tandy!), women are gang leaders (Violetta being very prominent, but you will see female leaders for the Jackals, for example, and Vipers) and indeed <<SPOILER ALERT: DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVE NOT DEALT WITH THE GREAT KHANS>> one of the cruxes of converting the Great Khans to support the NCR to get one vote on their tribal council is to point out to one member that she would not be allowed to serve in a position of power because Ceasar's Army treats their women poorly. Indeed, this makes (in my mind) Kopkilla's Army Men mod so much against lore -- there is a constant contrast made by Cass' comments and others that Caesar's legion treats women subserviently, and that is one of their failings, as a contrast to the NCR.

 

However, that is simply MY take on the Lore; I think Kopkilla made a VERY mature argument in his comment thread in pointing out that in his mind the NCR army works better if it is chuavanistic. I disagree with him when he says his mod is not mysoginistic -- the mod IS mysoginistic and rather defines that term by treating women as lesser to their male counterparts -- I just agree he has a right to envision a misogynistic NCR army and create a mod that supports his vision of such an organization. Fallout is a weird universe where factions take on elements of the Old World and twist it into their new Ethos -- whether poorly aping ancient Rome or Elvis, it is not too far of a stretch to imagine a 1950's inspired mindset. I just don't plan to use the mod and find it to be LESS immersive and violating the nature of the world.

 

The SAD part about such MODs is that once you open the door to sexism you tend to draw out the ugly side of the gender debates: Contributors to the thread, for example, have a hard time dealing with the fact Arcade is gay (his dialog makes it clear he had a male lover). So, one contributors says it is sad that the Enclave couldn't recognize him as "non human." Oh, that's classy. Another can only imagine Arcade being made originally as a female character, because Lord almighty miss molly it isn't possible for there to be a gay or bi character (well, except for a flamboyant gay prostitute or two, and of course Old Ben). One decided you should "FIX" Arcade's dialog so he isn't gay. Mind you, Veronica clearly had FEMALE lover and not one poster had a problem with that -- and that is why it is sad to see not the mod itself, but the responses to Army men that bring out the homophobic and misogynistic cheerleader squads.

 

 

Deutschland Atombombe's SS mods are a very different kettle of fish. He has uploaded player wearable Nazi uniforms. He uses teh Black Sun, a Nazi SS symbol, as his posting ICON. While again I support teh right for him to create such content and people to use it, I have to admit I am saddened by it. In some ways Deutschlandwants it both ways -- he wants to claim in his description: "DISCLAIMER: DO NOT COMPLAIN ON COMMENT BOARD, IT IS JUST A MOD." But at the same time he uses an SS symbol as his ICON. He makes the MOD not a modder's resource to use (after all, I am sure we all can imagine a gang or group that models themselves off an imperfectly-understood Nazi movement) but as a player wearable uniform, making it pretty clear his sympathies lie in a certain wish-fulfillment mode of wanting to play as a neo-Nazi courier.

 

Do I find that offensive? Unbelievably. Do I support his right ot post such a mod? Yes, although I wish he wouldn't. Do I hope that he gives permission to others to use his resource so we can get n on some good Nazi-killing action? Absolutely. I have yet to decide if I will download it just to use with NV Mannequins and then make one for target practice :)

 

Anyway, I am not sure there is any larger point to my thoughts: I support teh right for people to generally MOD fallout the way they wish, barring abuse or sex with children (which seems to be a lien I think we all can agree should not be crossed.) Some people have made mods where you can kill children or see them killed: that is horrific but adds to a very different kind of game which is bleaker and more mind-shattering. Many people make mods that sexually objectify women, while some bring equal opportunity to sexual objectification. Some want to have more graphic sexual content, others wish it banished. I truly appreciate the fact we have games that we can tailor to our own making.

 

I just hope that when people create mods that have controversial subjects they consider and help craft their descriptions and purpose in a way that it does not encourage the mysoginistic, homophobic,and racist trollings that seem to easily permeate the joys of internet anonymity.

[durklives]

Yeah well, Deutschland Atombombe has been banned for avatar, even though he has had it for a number of years. I think it is silly they are just now getting around to it, I am not even the ban is supported by any of the rules in the TOS. (And any explanation would probably reeaaally be stretching it.)

 

I bet Ben really wants to ban me now, since I sent him a PM telling him I thought what he did was wrong. It would be par for the course for this place.

Edited December 13, 2010 by durklives

[wastlelandfreak]

That kind of mods make me sick. Nazi armor? No womens in the NCR army? Come in guys, FO:NV is a vast world with thousands of NPC's, and the best part of that is the diversity of all the places. To my is not bad to have womens dressed like soldiers...NOT BAD AT ALL! (Come here soldier, i'll you you "my .50 caliber rifle") XD.

FatherAzerun is right, that kind of mods are crap. If you download it, you are a sick, a fascist, and a mysoginist.

Edited December 13, 2010 by wastlelandfreak

[secksegai]

When I was younger and before the game ratings system was implemented, I used to scoff at the idea of preventing people from playing a game by age. However, as I got older, while I knew the difference between a video game and real life, I realized that the line may not always be so clear cut for others. Ironically, the story about that young child that saved her family because of her experience playing Grand Theft Auto really drove the point home that parents don't always make the best choices, whether it be to ignorance or otherwise.

 

As for a nazi mod, its one thing to be fascinated by the rise of Hitler. While I have no clue as to what was actually included in the mod, SS uniforms alone would only upset me if I had actually lived through the war (which I did not). Lore wise, It would not bother me to see a faction who gathered behind a banner of hate, but after the Great War, those hatreds would most likely be towards mutants and ghouls as the rest of humanity is just doing what it can to get by. Then again, considering the civil wars that take place in countries most people could care less about, it's unlikely but still possible that ideals like that from the past would survive.

 

I can understand why killing children is so controversial, especially considering all the flack Lieberman used to put out there about "violent" videogames. But for an environment such as the Fallout Universe, it would make sense that children aren't immune to the harsh life of the wasteland. I myself don't need it for my gameplay experience, but if it existed in the game naturally, I would do my damndest to save whatever child I could. It's hard enough for me to be a Dark Jedi, playing the role of a bad guy or evil guy or whatever you want to call it is just not in my nature. With that said, I know that for some people, it would deepen their experience in their eyes to have to see children suffer, whether by their own hand or as an inspiration to take care of those responsible. As I said before, while I would not need it myself, I think that option should be available to those who desire that experience. There's enough real world suffering taking place each day, I don't see the need to be reminded of so much of it in my fiction.

 

As long as internet anonymity exists, trolling will too.

[bfskinner]

That kind of mods make me sick. Nazi armor? No womens in the NCR army? Come in guys, FO:NV is a vast world with thousands of NPC's, and the best part of that is the diversity of all the places. To my is not bad to have womens dressed like soldiers...NOT BAD AT ALL! (Come here soldier, i'll you you "my .50 caliber rifle") XD.

FatherAzerun is right, that kind of mods are crap. If you download it, you are a sick, a fascist, and a mysoginist.

 

So lets see here, you download a mod and that makes you a "mysoginist", but here you can make comments like "I'll show you my .50 caliber rifle" obviously in reference to your penis, treating women like sex objects and that is misogyny?

 

Look, I don't care about misogyny, I think the Army Men mod is just fine, but if you are going to PRETEND that you raging against the patriarch at least be consistent about it, jeez.

[simplywayne90]

To be honest I may include some content in an upcoming mod that could be considered offensive if someone wanted to take them that way or be overly sensitive to a subject that does not offend any possible players of the game, however anything I do decide to include will only be because I have ruled it to be funnier than it is offensive.

 

This rule is the golden rule of any offensive humor, but I have avoiding mentioning cerrtain ideas of mine for my mod as I thought it may lose me support, something neccesary for my mod.

 

The mod I'm talking about it one you've all probably seen mentioned on this forum, the idea to recreate the fallout mechanic of special encounters. Which are non-cannon parodies of movies, games, fallout itself, as well as pop-culture references and jokes.

 

Some of the classic encounters have some offensiveness, that I've been unwilling to mention but I will here.

 

- One of the encounters from the Fallout Tactics game, parodied Steve Irwin, and him getting himself killed by a komodo. (I planned to use geckos or nightstalkers) however since the parody was made long before his death I've felt that recreating it now would seem offensive to overly senstive players.

 

- One encounter I thought of was inspired from the constant stereotype that cops pull over and beat black people. I was going to parody this with a super mutant instead. We'd place a destroyed cop car behind another destoryed car and use our custom cop outfit on a few NPCs with batons beating a super mutant near the door of the "car being pulled over" again I did decide it would be offensive.

 

 

So while I did see the Germany nazi guys outfit, which while he may have been a nazi, I would've downloaded as it was a well made outfit and could've been used for making a ghoul hilter and ss troupe (which you would kill)

 

Honestly anyone young enough to play or mod this is too young to be that offended by that I believe

 

However I have been offended by mods but If I decide I don't like it, well leave it alone then is what I believe, as the original poster said it is a persons right to express their opinion and theres a texan saying for opinions like that "Opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one" So theres mine. Opinion that is. =P

[wastlelandfreak]

So lets see here, you download a mod and that makes you a "mysoginist", but here you can make comments like "I'll show you my .50 caliber rifle" obviously in reference to your penis, treating women like sex objects and that is misogyny?

 

It's a joke, sorry. The point of this is the people who download mods like "Animated prostitution" or "Tipe 3 naked female body" (What kind of man can enjoy it?). And no, the women are not sex objects for me, the women are the best of THE CREATION, the most precious of this world. Women deserve respect, and my previous comment are only a joke ( I know, A BAD JOKE). If I offend you I beg you pardon. I'm feeling like an idiot right now, but at least I'm assuming my error. Sorry...

[scruples]

This stuff will happen, but. Common sense and the increasing availability of education will eventually win-out over ignorance.

If material offends people enough it should be canned, I don't think nazi imagery is worth censoring unless it is tied to nazi worship or emulation.

I believe Deutschland's avatar was probably evidence of some sort of idolatry.

 

The mod reducing woman's rank is blatantly misogynistic, to say it reflects reality does not change that...its misogynistic in real life and its misogynistic in the game, to refute this is ignorance.

Edited December 13, 2010 by scruples

[durklives]

This stuff will happen, but. Common sense and the increasing availability of education will eventually win-out over ignorance.

If material offends people enough it should be canned, I don't think nazi imagery is worth censoring unless it is tied to nazi worship or emulation.

I believe Deutschland's avatar was probably evidence of some sort of idolatry.

 

The mod reducing woman's rank is blatantly misogynistic, to say it reflects reality does not change that...its misogynistic in real life and its misogynistic in the game, to refute this is ignorance.

 

This place is crazy with the ban hammer. For example they just banned a guy named "Bunny Poop Cereal" because his name was "offensive" or whatever.

 

And second, the mod you are talking about doesn't reduce their rank. For example one of the highest ranked military members is still a female. It just makes it so that women are not typically out patrolling and assuming combat roles, which is for good reason, as objective military testing as shown that women are less effective on the battle field than men.

[scruples]

So some guy was unable to suspend his disbelief that women were often combat soldiers in a post-apocalyptic game about an alternate timeline?.

A game where fighting off multiple giant scorpions and super mutants with lasers is the norm?.

He was so distraught by this he had to create a mod?!.

 

Women are less effective on the battlefield than men.

Therefore the game should actively represent this by removing their combat roles?.

I suppose you could argue that the NCR made a conscious decision to do this based on practicality.

But, I would argue that the NCR has already canonically decided to not delegate duties dependent on sex, because that's how it is by default.

NCR was originally a militia not the US army.