Quick updates to the site, money money money edition

[Deleted3507349User]

In response to post #24616159. #24616314, #24616399, #24616454, #24616704, #24616799, #24616909, #24617019, #24617144, #24617304, #24617354, #24617394, #24617519, #24618004, #24618149, #24618159, #24618169, #24618264, #24618289, #24618509, #24618574, #24618634, #24619184, #24619264, #24619524, #24619749, #24619879, #24620069, #24620089, #24620334, #24620539, #24620654, #24620834, #24620854, #24620909, #24621039, #24621124, #24621969, #24622244, #24622359, #24622569, #24622584, #24622724, #24623239, #24623394, #24623524, #24623554, #24623839, #24623994, #24624269 are all replies on the same post.

phenderix wrote:

BluemaxDR wrote: I sincerely wish you good luck.

As for me, I'm going to take a break from modding Skyrim for a while. Well except for updating one because Raulfin is updating the combat system in his and I feel obliged to keep mine up to date.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Thank you and apart from questioning whether you feel it totally justified to advertise Steam Workshop on the Nexus, I would like to ask if you think you should get at least 75% of that $2.99.

To pay rent with.

Axeface wrote: Good luck phenderix. There is nothing wrong with what you are doing and it is an inevitable progression in gaming and modding, I havent used your mods because they dont suit me personally - but they suit a lot of people and have value. Please try to 'weather the storm' of rabid screaming masses on the forums until the storm clears. Maybe you could provide some kind of extra incentive to buy, while still offering the free option?

Cheers, good luck. Keep calm and keep modding :)

phenderix wrote: While the file is still pending review here is a list of features I intend to add using a goal system.

Every $200 - New spells will be added or an existing archetype will be significantly modified and improved.
$500 - new companion NPCs that use spells added by this mod.
$1000 - new worldspace containing many things to do regarding this mod. (Town, vendors, shops, npcs, new world)
If goals met, new goals will be added.

BluemaxDR wrote:

Every $200 - New spells will be added or an existing archetype will be significantly modified and improved.
$500 - new companion NPCs that use spells added by this mod.
$1000 - new worldspace containing many things to do regarding this mod. (Town, vendors, shops, npcs, new world)
If goals met, new goals will be added.

Like kickstarter....smart.

Turnstyles wrote: I wish you luck, though I am sorry to say that this may kill peoples trust in you as a modder. I make this in no ill way, but as a statement. This does not guarantee good mods at all, and incentivises theft of assets for profit. I hope you take this well.

Axeface wrote: @Turnstyles.
"Trust in him as a modder" - what does that even mean? Trust that you can take from him forever and never give anything back other than an optional 'endorsement' click?

OiramX5 wrote: I understand your position but dont agree with your vision, you will receive only a little value of money (most go to Valve and Bethesda), but it is your work and time, you do what wish (And Valve too now, she will be your "partner" and owner of your mod, just read about Cheskos said it).

I respect you decision and wish you good luck with this.

Shadowmane01 wrote: Well I respect your decision you have a hobby and see a chance to make a few quid out of it why not. People do that with other hobby's such as arts and crafts and so on. I was initially very upset about this mods for money thing but I'm calming down a bit now. I do have a question though will your workshop edition use the MCM if so what % of the $2.99 goes to them ?.

phenderix wrote: Thanks for the mostly positive comments so far guys. Magic Evolved does not contain any assets created by other modders. I will certainly never be stealing ideas or content from other mods just to make a profit. I have enough original ideas for new mods and improvements on existing mods. :)


MCM is getting a portion of pay. My mod barely uses it but it will receive a portion of proceeds nevertheless.

Silki08 wrote: They should be paying you guys more. Like for reals.

butthead123 wrote: Good luck with that though i wish it felt like my money was going to you rather than valve :(

Maruun wrote: I cant be angry about it i just hope it wont bite you later...

Yerevans wrote: In the college, regarding IT in business, we have discussions regarding strategies companies use to transfer costs and work to customers to profit more.
This is such strategy in place, Bethesda does not care anymore about Skyrim, they want free and easy money, as does Valve.

This will stimulate companies to release more broken and half finished games, not that the community will not only fix it to them for free, as they will actually profit more for people doing it.

That is not modding anymore, that is 3rd party DLC, outsourcing activities, reducing exposure and liability.

I would love to hear from you if you are actually getting any reasonable amount of money, most likely you will, but philosophically I despite this, as whenever people compete by finite resources things go ugly.

But I guess this is the real ugly truth of this era, where god was killed by reason and reason replaced by money, selfishness will always prevail upon altruism.
"Each to his own and God against all" this is the nature of the world and humanity.

Darkieus wrote: ...And unendorsed and uninstalled.

I don't like Workshop, and I don't like the idea of being forced to pay for a 'Mod' (which by this point is no longer a mod, but a DLC item).

I hope this system doesn't pass onto Fallout 4. Sorry.

Vault Tec wrote: I wish you luck in your endeavors as I'm one of the many refusing to 'buy' mods due to many reasons but I'd also like to mention, VALVe and Bethesda are getting 75% of that $3 you intend to charge. You aren't going to be earning much from your endeavors especially since it was discovered yesterday that a person can buy your mod, copy the files out of the Data folder and ask for a refund. They've got the mod for free at this point and you're out of pocket.

anonownsyou wrote: As I said, everyone deserves a pat on the back and some beef jerky for their effort. You guys deserve 75% of your beef jerky though, not no sad 25%

Best of luck in this, I admire your optimism regarding this pushing towards quality rather than quantity, and I surely hope you're right.

TheEyelessWanderer wrote: I'm going to take care to specifically not purchase, download, endorse, or promote anything you create.

(I suggest everyone else takes the same course of action. This individual followed the gold scent. We all know where it inevitably leads.)

Ghatto wrote: This is what I was afraid of happening. It not like I don't think modders deserve any compensation, or that they can't value their work financially. It's the transformation, the necessary consideration of it that every modder will now have and how that makes them a different kind of artist and a completely different member of a now fractured mod community. Before now I'd never heard nor thought of a modder 'in it for the money', that any of their mods were being advertised like product; it was always just something they made that would improve the game and the community was reciprocative in those efforts. Now those same modders will filling their own artistic visions of their mods with thought about how much they deserve for it, something they never had to, or wanted to do while they were lovingly making mods for fun/enjoyment/challenge etc.

Everything was fine until now. Mods that were made, were made. Mods that weren't made, weren't. The community doesn't 'need' to give back, because they were never taking - modders were only ever giving, in a community of only ever giving.

WileCoyote68 wrote: Hi phenderix,
My native language/mother tongue is german and because of this fact my choosen game language is german. You say you will release the new Version of your mod only via Steam Workshop and Paid Content. Now one simple question to you: Will your mod being available as a multi-lingual version on the Workshoip? If not, then why the hell should a german, italian, french.... customer pay for it? I can understand that you have putted a lot of work in your creations, but going behind the pay wall should inlcude that you provide the same service as Bethesda did when they released Skyrim and the DLC's. If this is not a legitimate concern for you, then everything you said about your decision is only a lie. Then you care only about the money and nothing more

UnitedStrafes wrote: Never paid for a mod never will, not in Skyrim and not in Fallout 4, When I start making mods which I plan to do for Fallout It won't be because I'm expecting some compensation. Steam is full of bad ideas lately and is turning from something that was very cool into video game Wal-Mart sad really.

It's nice you spent so much time making your mod and I hope you do well, but anyone needing to be compensated for modding leads to me not needing that mod........EVER.

Draugas wrote: I'm not going to say whether or not I agree, I wish you luck.

But.

I do think you do yourself a diservice by choosing to do this *now*.

This is new, people are in an uproar, Valvthesda is exploiting modders with the percentage (opinion).

Are the potential repercussions worth putting your mod up on day two of the storm?

Silki08 wrote: Hi, I'm essentially someone genuinely trying to understand the shift. Things may be rough right now and I hope that through some of my questions you can alleviate some issues about modders going through the payment option on Steam Workshop. I'll try to organize this as best I can for your benefit.

1. To make a hobby into a career is a dream many people have in the world. However, being paid such a paltry amount for something that is essentially your design and creation seems like you are being taken advantage of. Has there been any negotiations on the part of mod authors to get a better share of the profits?

[in my opinion, for modders to be paid for putting comprehensive, functional, and revolutionary mods is a good thing. Being paid for it with something that seems even more extreme than indentured servitude seems wrong.]

2. Do you think this will effect modding for future games? Many gamers would feel that essential mods may one day be behind a paywall. For example, the new elder scrolls or fallout games may have a weak UI system. This prompts the SkyUI team to develop a better UI for the game. However this new UI mod will be behind a paywall from day one. Perhaps there is a framework that allows for mods to work in a cohesive form but must be bought to make a multitude of mods to work together. Is this acceptable in your opinion?

3. Many mods are a combined effort with those who have a distinct passion for their creation. How would the distribution of income be handled should their be assets from another mod that is free located within a mod that has been monetized?

4. How much of a cut do you think creators of these mods should have? If 25% is acceptable skip this question.

5. Many people feel that they are not actually supporting the mod authors by only having 25% of the commission go to the authors themselves. If more people donated from the start, would you have opted in this program?

6. In light of question 5. How many people actually have donated to you over your modding career?

7. How many hours have you spent on modding? This includes time spent on support, compatibility, and communication with the community.

8. In your opinion, is Valve and Bethesda doing this for the benefit of the modding community or for themselves?

9. In your opinion, should an item mod be the same price as an expansive mod? For comparisons sake, an armor mod vs a quest mod that includes: Armor, weapons, characters, buildings, locations, etc.

10. Some may argue that modding is for the community. That a group of individuals come together to make something that people with a common interest can enjoy. Do you think by going through this route, this is still possible? For example disagreements between collaborators may now increase because of this monetization option.

11. Multilingual support is usually done without the original authors help. Will multilingual support for all incredibly popular mods completely cease?

phenderix wrote: I genuinely think that this is a very good thing for the modding community.

More people will put in more time to creating better mods for Skyrim. I would gladly pay $5-10 for more mods like Falskar or Alternate Start.

I recently got a job in NYC financial district and have no where near as much time as I used to have to mod. This makes it a more compelling case to mod even when I don't have much free time anymore.

I will be using the premium version as a sort of kickstarter type campaign to fund more features added to the mod. I will be adding new worldspace and many new spells and features if people support the mod.

My mod doesn't simply add one item or do something very simple. It adds over 300 new spells to the game along with perks and other scripted features. All bug-free as of latest version. This is something I think people should want to purchase.

I understand the points a lot of you are making. I think that once this all settles that it will be an overall good thing. The 25% thing is a little ridiculous but I bet that this will eventually increase over time. I have no problem with Bethesda getting at least 50% since they created the game and creation kit to allow me to mod.

phantompally76 wrote: I can only disagree, emphatically. But that's not going to change your mind.

I won't be downloading, installing, or endorsing your mods anymore.

And frankly, that goes for anyone else that buys into this horsecrap. No matter how much you want to make yourselves believe that you're helping the modding community.....you're effectively killing it, and I REFUSE to be complicit in this betrayal.

phenderix wrote: Some very strong words. Thanks for the unendorse :)

CommanderJuraks wrote: The game creators and the file site "hosters" by far should be getting the larger portion of the cut, they literally made the game and are hosting/sharing your file(s) for download without them doing 80% of the leg work to make the mod possible in the first place there wouldn't even be a mod.

I personally don't like the concept of paying for something that was originally intended to be free and a hobby. Should the community be more gratuitous towards mod authors, absolutely but it shouldn't drive them(mod authors) to the point of hiding their works behind a pay-wall of any sort. Because let's face it, most mods aren't worth the money. While most of the mods in the "Top 100" lists here on the nexus are worth 1 dollar to 8 dollars that is just a fraction of a percent of the mods on the skyrim nexus alone that worth that bit of money. I'd rather be prompted to donate as thanks than be forced to pay for a retexture of someone else's work. My main fear with these new developments(paying for mods) is that almost every tom, dick, and harry mod maker will go hide behind a pay-wall even when the mod isn't even worth paying for.

That all being said, I appreciate modders and what they do my solution to this situation works something like this. Youtube video authors receive payment for how many views their videos get within a given period of time. The more "subscribers" they have the more almost guaranteed views they have. Why not work something out like that with the nexus?
Where if you endorse or give kudos to a specific author you get a notification every time that author uploads/updates a file. Mod authors would be payed on how many views or downloads their mods get in a given period of time(ex: a month or two weeks). The behind the scenes of how the pay would come out of the Nexus' total revenue could be worked out similarily to, again, how youtube does it. MEANING: I'd rather see mod authors paid in similar fashion to how youtube channel/video authors are being payed.

While the nexus may not like losing a bit of it's total profit this is a viable alternative to letting mod authors hide behind pay-walls whether the mod is worth the price or not.

I hope it works out for the best of the entire community and doesn't create a union of lazy people screaming for a handout or larger commission.

phantompally76 wrote: Oh, you're more than welcome, sir. Good day.

phenderix wrote: @CommanderJuraks
I completely agree with a lot of the points you listed.
That is why only one of my mods is making this transition.
The other 7 are remaining Nexus exclusives and forever free.

jet4571 wrote: Good luck seeing that happen.

A bit of advice for you, if you are not modding for your own game then releasing because others may enjoy it as well then you are doing it wrong. If your motivation is recognition and money then grab either the Unreal or Unity engine and make something you own and sell it. You will get the recognition if the game is good and make far more than the %25 Beth and Valve is offering.

I have been modding since Windows 95 was the latest OS and Win 98 was just around the corner, Had Paypal donations available since 2006 I think and not received one donation and during the mid 2000's I was making complete game overhauls that took a year or more to make without a proper SDK like the CK. As in Hex editor was an essential tool to get every 3D model working. Not a single donation for 4 years spending almost every free moment creating lists in a text editor and changing 3d Models in a hex editor. And you know what? Even if those were the top downloaded mods for the 3 games they were made for that's perfectly fine. Why? Because I did it for myself first. I have an unfinished game using the Unreal engine that I can work on but making it for a job just isn't as fun.

I hope you understand that I am offering advice on how to keep modding fun and still have a place for creating something for recognition and money and that none of this was an attack. I do feel you are modding for the wrong reasons and that's why the donations thing gets to you.

cplfernandez wrote: If people really believed in the donate option, wouldn't they be lining up to donat money to you in order to try to change your mind? Is that happening?

jfisha wrote: If you're giving some money to SkyUI for use of their MCM, don't forget to kickback some to SKSE, since the MCM relies on that

akkalat85 wrote: Hold it man, that's not cool. Not about you uploading the workshop, who cares... but about you using this nexus topic as a means to promote a 3rd party pay site. You advertising "future" features like that here is pretty shady.

Valve is giving you all the boost you need, but to come to a free site and self promote your paid product is just low.

phenderix wrote: @jet4571
Thanks for the comment. I think that is one reason I have decided to do this. I mainly mod for other people instead of myself. It is not really that exciting to use spells that you created.

@cplfernandez
Donation does not work, period. I have received one donation in almost 3 years of modding. People act like the system is fine, but never donate. Some other model needs to be implemented. If one were introduced I would definitely listen.

@akkalat85
Once again, this makes no sense. If my mod gets a purchase on the Steam Workshop the Skyrim Nexus will receive part of the revenue. Please research how the new system will work.

akkalat85 wrote: @phenderix: So far no one has brought fourth evidence for that claim. You will have to excuse my disbelief, but I don't believe things just because someone said so. If you have a link, please share it.

If a mod author lists the nexus as an influential figure in helping them in their modding hobby they can opt to list them, just as people have listed AFK mods (who also runs a free service), You could list google if you wanted too.

Impulseman45 wrote: I can understand putting allot of time into modding. I have put hundreds of hours into making meshes that are now on permanent hold because of possible theft by the creeps at the Steam Workshop. Anyone who has a mod and it gets put behind that pay-wall without their consent will never get it taken down. Vavle has all but said all mods are far game to steal the content from. So you are joining the side that is going to steal its way to power. Someone has already stolen and posted Soolies Real Clouds mod there today. And, do you realize that they own your mods from now on. Just look at what Chesko said about trying to take his mod down. They got what they wanted from him and that is what they will with you. Good luck. Your going to need it.

phenderix wrote: After getting over 50 comments and messages and many respectful responses I have changed my mind and will keep all of my mods free and Nexus exclusive. I trust Nexus staff to have a good solution to this problem.

JohnnyH1982 wrote: welp, good luck to you. I just unsubscribed from all Steam Workshop mods from all games supported and I don't plan on going back. I respect your hustle, but I don't agree at all with Valves implementation. And I do say best of luck, with good intentions, I am not being snarky or disingenuous.
Ciao

Impulseman45 wrote: Bravo, I hope my comment had a little input on things, but everyone should be thrilled that you made this change of heart. I only hope other modders do the same. Here is crossing finger and toes.

WightMage wrote: Seriously?

As in, no sarcasm intended?

Then, I am glad you were able to see reason, friend. And besides, even if you do want to eventually be paid for your work, now is the worst possible time.

It would be like studying abroad in a country during a civil war.

mrinanis wrote: imho if you want to be paid for a mod you shoule asking for donations.

if you want a real s mod then you should ork in the gaming industry and NOT make mods... but DLCs

akkalat85 wrote: Wight is absolutely correct. The community is throwing labels and slurs like my ex throws babies. Now is not a great time to add anyone's name to the workshop.

Your unexpected change of heart is not only shocking, but is inspiring. Here, have a kudos.

So far I've speculated on some of the issues mod authors would soon be facing after joining hands with Valve...

For example what would happen if a mod author releases a paid mod on workshop and then let's say he/she gets banned from Steam. Because Valve now owns your property, a consequence of this could be legal ramification if you then at some point uploaded an updated version to the nexus, or any site for that matter. Even though the creative mind was you, you technically don't own your own mod any longer and if Valve wanted to get nasty they could send you desist letters.

Or in the case of Fores, his animations will forever be uploaded to the workshop against his will. Anyone that purchased Chesko's fishing mod will forever have access to Fore's animation even though Fore will never see a penny. What's worse, what's to stop one of users with that file from then using those animations in their own personal mod. The expectations that we are going to police ourselves is ludicrous.

WightMage wrote: Though to be fair, don't the terms of using CK state that whatever we create belongs to Bethesda by default? I was a bit confused (but, sadly, not surprised by) Chesko's reaction when Valve Legal refused to let him take Arissa 2.0 off the workshop, though he claimed it was 100% his.

My impression was that ultimately, he and Griefmyst only really owned the voice files- everything else was made using programs that they signed EULA's for.

akkalat85 wrote: Yes that's most likely correct. In the past great mods like "Weapon Mod Kits" have been an inspiration for future game systems Bethesda creates. A user most likely cannot try to engage in a legal dispute due to this very reason.

I remember when "Build Your Own Home" was released. A couple months later Bethesda released "Hearthfire". It could be odd timing, but it's no secret Bethesda has used the modding community in the past for bright ideas to capitalize on. In the case of Antistar's WMK mod, they openly thanked him for the idea and Antistar viewed is as a recognition of his accolades and good publicity in the professional world.

I would personally be flattered as well. It depends on how you look at it. Of course, Bethesda doesn't do a carbon copy. They rewrite the entire system in house, but the ideas come from this site. It's pretty much impossible to lay claim to an idea though so whether Bethesda owns our esps or not I doubt it matters in the long run.

cTuck88 wrote: I applaud you in doing this. Not because I feel the users have a right to free mods, nor because I feel modders are getting greedy and jumping at Valve/Bethesda's doggy treat offer of 25%, but because you had a moment of clarity in this virtual s#*!-storm (pardon my French.)

It is too early to be picking one side or the other in this debate. People had already chosen sides before this became official, and now Valve has simply opened the gates and released the hounds, content to watch us tear each other apart while laughing and counting their new shiny coins. Best thing to do is to take a step back for a minute and get a better view of the big picture. Many great concerns have been brought up such as collabs, mod requirements, and piracy. What will Valve do to correct these things? Will they even give a damn? Do you really want to be joining their side without knowing that whether or not they will even fight for you or back you up? And on the "Freeside", many say they will start donating now just to keep you off the SW. Will they? Do you trust them anymore than you do Valve? Will they help out with identifying and reporting piracy of your work should someone else try to sell it on the SW?

Far too soon to join either Valvthesda or Freeside. Talk with people, debate the finer points and concerns, and then after some time (when the wolves calm down a bit) make an informed decision that you feel is right.

And that goes for everyone. Modders can chose to use a paywall, donation, or free distribution of their mods. Users can chose to pay, donate, or use freely given mods. No one has the right to say whether that person made the right choice or not. It is their choice alone. All I ask is that you make one after being well informed.

TL; DR I applaud phenderix for taking a step back to look at things and will ultimately respect any decision that mod makers/users decide to make. All I suggest is that you make it an informed one.

Joeblivion wrote: I think you are making a good choice in changing your mind to making all your mods Nexus exclusive.

When I initially read your first post, I immediately decided that if I saw a mod with your name on it I would skip it and move on out of principle.

I am very pleased that you changed your mind though. You have restored a little bit of my hope for the future of the modding community of Skyrim in general.

I hope that you continue to get endorsements and praise despite what Valve and Beth are doing.

phenderix wrote: Thank you all for the comments.
I heavily considered whether or not to do this all day.


The respectful comments and messages I have received from users and modders on this site made me change my mind.

I hope the community can unite and figure out a solution to all of this instead of just cursing at one another and ripping people that make a decision to monetize their mods. I am sure there is some way that everyone can benefit.

digitaltrucker wrote: Whatever happens, the modding community will never be the same after this :(

cTuck88 wrote: @ digitaltrucker

Sadly, you are correct. This has divided the modding community into so many factions. Some will stick it out going free, having to fight a whole host of new problems (well not really new, but much more toxic) such as paid piracy, potential copyright/DMCA threats and god knows what else. Some will get burned by this so badly that they will simply stop modding forever, which is a very sad thing to think about. And others will rise up because of this to be the new generation of mod makers, whether to champion for or against this new way of modding.

In any event the past, oh, five years or so will be remembered as the golden age of modding...and it ended with a quarter.

[BarnabasCollins]

In response to post #24616159. #24616314, #24616399, #24616454, #24616704, #24616799, #24616909, #24617019, #24617144, #24617304, #24617354, #24617394, #24617519, #24618004, #24618149, #24618159, #24618169, #24618264, #24618289, #24618509, #24618574, #24618634, #24619184, #24619264, #24619524, #24619749, #24619879, #24620069, #24620089, #24620334, #24620539, #24620654, #24620834, #24620854, #24620909, #24621039, #24621124, #24621969, #24622244, #24622359, #24622569, #24622584, #24622724, #24623239, #24623394, #24623524, #24623554, #24623839, #24623994, #24624269, #24624324 are all replies on the same post.

phenderix wrote:

BluemaxDR wrote: I sincerely wish you good luck.

As for me, I'm going to take a break from modding Skyrim for a while. Well except for updating one because Raulfin is updating the combat system in his and I feel obliged to keep mine up to date.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Thank you and apart from questioning whether you feel it totally justified to advertise Steam Workshop on the Nexus, I would like to ask if you think you should get at least 75% of that $2.99.

To pay rent with.

Axeface wrote: Good luck phenderix. There is nothing wrong with what you are doing and it is an inevitable progression in gaming and modding, I havent used your mods because they dont suit me personally - but they suit a lot of people and have value. Please try to 'weather the storm' of rabid screaming masses on the forums until the storm clears. Maybe you could provide some kind of extra incentive to buy, while still offering the free option?

Cheers, good luck. Keep calm and keep modding :)

phenderix wrote: While the file is still pending review here is a list of features I intend to add using a goal system.

Every $200 - New spells will be added or an existing archetype will be significantly modified and improved.
$500 - new companion NPCs that use spells added by this mod.
$1000 - new worldspace containing many things to do regarding this mod. (Town, vendors, shops, npcs, new world)
If goals met, new goals will be added.

BluemaxDR wrote:

Every $200 - New spells will be added or an existing archetype will be significantly modified and improved.
$500 - new companion NPCs that use spells added by this mod.
$1000 - new worldspace containing many things to do regarding this mod. (Town, vendors, shops, npcs, new world)
If goals met, new goals will be added.

Like kickstarter....smart.

Turnstyles wrote: I wish you luck, though I am sorry to say that this may kill peoples trust in you as a modder. I make this in no ill way, but as a statement. This does not guarantee good mods at all, and incentivises theft of assets for profit. I hope you take this well.

Axeface wrote: @Turnstyles.
"Trust in him as a modder" - what does that even mean? Trust that you can take from him forever and never give anything back other than an optional 'endorsement' click?

OiramX5 wrote: I understand your position but dont agree with your vision, you will receive only a little value of money (most go to Valve and Bethesda), but it is your work and time, you do what wish (And Valve too now, she will be your "partner" and owner of your mod, just read about Cheskos said it).

I respect you decision and wish you good luck with this.

Shadowmane01 wrote: Well I respect your decision you have a hobby and see a chance to make a few quid out of it why not. People do that with other hobby's such as arts and crafts and so on. I was initially very upset about this mods for money thing but I'm calming down a bit now. I do have a question though will your workshop edition use the MCM if so what % of the $2.99 goes to them ?.

phenderix wrote: Thanks for the mostly positive comments so far guys. Magic Evolved does not contain any assets created by other modders. I will certainly never be stealing ideas or content from other mods just to make a profit. I have enough original ideas for new mods and improvements on existing mods. :)


MCM is getting a portion of pay. My mod barely uses it but it will receive a portion of proceeds nevertheless.

Silki08 wrote: They should be paying you guys more. Like for reals.

butthead123 wrote: Good luck with that though i wish it felt like my money was going to you rather than valve :(

Maruun wrote: I cant be angry about it i just hope it wont bite you later...

Yerevans wrote: In the college, regarding IT in business, we have discussions regarding strategies companies use to transfer costs and work to customers to profit more.
This is such strategy in place, Bethesda does not care anymore about Skyrim, they want free and easy money, as does Valve.

This will stimulate companies to release more broken and half finished games, not that the community will not only fix it to them for free, as they will actually profit more for people doing it.

That is not modding anymore, that is 3rd party DLC, outsourcing activities, reducing exposure and liability.

I would love to hear from you if you are actually getting any reasonable amount of money, most likely you will, but philosophically I despite this, as whenever people compete by finite resources things go ugly.

But I guess this is the real ugly truth of this era, where god was killed by reason and reason replaced by money, selfishness will always prevail upon altruism.
"Each to his own and God against all" this is the nature of the world and humanity.

Darkieus wrote: ...And unendorsed and uninstalled.

I don't like Workshop, and I don't like the idea of being forced to pay for a 'Mod' (which by this point is no longer a mod, but a DLC item).

I hope this system doesn't pass onto Fallout 4. Sorry.

Vault Tec wrote: I wish you luck in your endeavors as I'm one of the many refusing to 'buy' mods due to many reasons but I'd also like to mention, VALVe and Bethesda are getting 75% of that $3 you intend to charge. You aren't going to be earning much from your endeavors especially since it was discovered yesterday that a person can buy your mod, copy the files out of the Data folder and ask for a refund. They've got the mod for free at this point and you're out of pocket.

anonownsyou wrote: As I said, everyone deserves a pat on the back and some beef jerky for their effort. You guys deserve 75% of your beef jerky though, not no sad 25%

Best of luck in this, I admire your optimism regarding this pushing towards quality rather than quantity, and I surely hope you're right.

TheEyelessWanderer wrote: I'm going to take care to specifically not purchase, download, endorse, or promote anything you create.

(I suggest everyone else takes the same course of action. This individual followed the gold scent. We all know where it inevitably leads.)

Ghatto wrote: This is what I was afraid of happening. It not like I don't think modders deserve any compensation, or that they can't value their work financially. It's the transformation, the necessary consideration of it that every modder will now have and how that makes them a different kind of artist and a completely different member of a now fractured mod community. Before now I'd never heard nor thought of a modder 'in it for the money', that any of their mods were being advertised like product; it was always just something they made that would improve the game and the community was reciprocative in those efforts. Now those same modders will filling their own artistic visions of their mods with thought about how much they deserve for it, something they never had to, or wanted to do while they were lovingly making mods for fun/enjoyment/challenge etc.

Everything was fine until now. Mods that were made, were made. Mods that weren't made, weren't. The community doesn't 'need' to give back, because they were never taking - modders were only ever giving, in a community of only ever giving.

WileCoyote68 wrote: Hi phenderix,
My native language/mother tongue is german and because of this fact my choosen game language is german. You say you will release the new Version of your mod only via Steam Workshop and Paid Content. Now one simple question to you: Will your mod being available as a multi-lingual version on the Workshoip? If not, then why the hell should a german, italian, french.... customer pay for it? I can understand that you have putted a lot of work in your creations, but going behind the pay wall should inlcude that you provide the same service as Bethesda did when they released Skyrim and the DLC's. If this is not a legitimate concern for you, then everything you said about your decision is only a lie. Then you care only about the money and nothing more

UnitedStrafes wrote: Never paid for a mod never will, not in Skyrim and not in Fallout 4, When I start making mods which I plan to do for Fallout It won't be because I'm expecting some compensation. Steam is full of bad ideas lately and is turning from something that was very cool into video game Wal-Mart sad really.

It's nice you spent so much time making your mod and I hope you do well, but anyone needing to be compensated for modding leads to me not needing that mod........EVER.

Draugas wrote: I'm not going to say whether or not I agree, I wish you luck.

But.

I do think you do yourself a diservice by choosing to do this *now*.

This is new, people are in an uproar, Valvthesda is exploiting modders with the percentage (opinion).

Are the potential repercussions worth putting your mod up on day two of the storm?

Silki08 wrote: Hi, I'm essentially someone genuinely trying to understand the shift. Things may be rough right now and I hope that through some of my questions you can alleviate some issues about modders going through the payment option on Steam Workshop. I'll try to organize this as best I can for your benefit.

1. To make a hobby into a career is a dream many people have in the world. However, being paid such a paltry amount for something that is essentially your design and creation seems like you are being taken advantage of. Has there been any negotiations on the part of mod authors to get a better share of the profits?

[in my opinion, for modders to be paid for putting comprehensive, functional, and revolutionary mods is a good thing. Being paid for it with something that seems even more extreme than indentured servitude seems wrong.]

2. Do you think this will effect modding for future games? Many gamers would feel that essential mods may one day be behind a paywall. For example, the new elder scrolls or fallout games may have a weak UI system. This prompts the SkyUI team to develop a better UI for the game. However this new UI mod will be behind a paywall from day one. Perhaps there is a framework that allows for mods to work in a cohesive form but must be bought to make a multitude of mods to work together. Is this acceptable in your opinion?

3. Many mods are a combined effort with those who have a distinct passion for their creation. How would the distribution of income be handled should their be assets from another mod that is free located within a mod that has been monetized?

4. How much of a cut do you think creators of these mods should have? If 25% is acceptable skip this question.

5. Many people feel that they are not actually supporting the mod authors by only having 25% of the commission go to the authors themselves. If more people donated from the start, would you have opted in this program?

6. In light of question 5. How many people actually have donated to you over your modding career?

7. How many hours have you spent on modding? This includes time spent on support, compatibility, and communication with the community.

8. In your opinion, is Valve and Bethesda doing this for the benefit of the modding community or for themselves?

9. In your opinion, should an item mod be the same price as an expansive mod? For comparisons sake, an armor mod vs a quest mod that includes: Armor, weapons, characters, buildings, locations, etc.

10. Some may argue that modding is for the community. That a group of individuals come together to make something that people with a common interest can enjoy. Do you think by going through this route, this is still possible? For example disagreements between collaborators may now increase because of this monetization option.

11. Multilingual support is usually done without the original authors help. Will multilingual support for all incredibly popular mods completely cease?

phenderix wrote: I genuinely think that this is a very good thing for the modding community.

More people will put in more time to creating better mods for Skyrim. I would gladly pay $5-10 for more mods like Falskar or Alternate Start.

I recently got a job in NYC financial district and have no where near as much time as I used to have to mod. This makes it a more compelling case to mod even when I don't have much free time anymore.

I will be using the premium version as a sort of kickstarter type campaign to fund more features added to the mod. I will be adding new worldspace and many new spells and features if people support the mod.

My mod doesn't simply add one item or do something very simple. It adds over 300 new spells to the game along with perks and other scripted features. All bug-free as of latest version. This is something I think people should want to purchase.

I understand the points a lot of you are making. I think that once this all settles that it will be an overall good thing. The 25% thing is a little ridiculous but I bet that this will eventually increase over time. I have no problem with Bethesda getting at least 50% since they created the game and creation kit to allow me to mod.

phantompally76 wrote: I can only disagree, emphatically. But that's not going to change your mind.

I won't be downloading, installing, or endorsing your mods anymore.

And frankly, that goes for anyone else that buys into this horsecrap. No matter how much you want to make yourselves believe that you're helping the modding community.....you're effectively killing it, and I REFUSE to be complicit in this betrayal.

phenderix wrote: Some very strong words. Thanks for the unendorse :)

CommanderJuraks wrote: The game creators and the file site "hosters" by far should be getting the larger portion of the cut, they literally made the game and are hosting/sharing your file(s) for download without them doing 80% of the leg work to make the mod possible in the first place there wouldn't even be a mod.

I personally don't like the concept of paying for something that was originally intended to be free and a hobby. Should the community be more gratuitous towards mod authors, absolutely but it shouldn't drive them(mod authors) to the point of hiding their works behind a pay-wall of any sort. Because let's face it, most mods aren't worth the money. While most of the mods in the "Top 100" lists here on the nexus are worth 1 dollar to 8 dollars that is just a fraction of a percent of the mods on the skyrim nexus alone that worth that bit of money. I'd rather be prompted to donate as thanks than be forced to pay for a retexture of someone else's work. My main fear with these new developments(paying for mods) is that almost every tom, dick, and harry mod maker will go hide behind a pay-wall even when the mod isn't even worth paying for.

That all being said, I appreciate modders and what they do my solution to this situation works something like this. Youtube video authors receive payment for how many views their videos get within a given period of time. The more "subscribers" they have the more almost guaranteed views they have. Why not work something out like that with the nexus?
Where if you endorse or give kudos to a specific author you get a notification every time that author uploads/updates a file. Mod authors would be payed on how many views or downloads their mods get in a given period of time(ex: a month or two weeks). The behind the scenes of how the pay would come out of the Nexus' total revenue could be worked out similarily to, again, how youtube does it. MEANING: I'd rather see mod authors paid in similar fashion to how youtube channel/video authors are being payed.

While the nexus may not like losing a bit of it's total profit this is a viable alternative to letting mod authors hide behind pay-walls whether the mod is worth the price or not.

I hope it works out for the best of the entire community and doesn't create a union of lazy people screaming for a handout or larger commission.

phantompally76 wrote: Oh, you're more than welcome, sir. Good day.

phenderix wrote: @CommanderJuraks
I completely agree with a lot of the points you listed.
That is why only one of my mods is making this transition.
The other 7 are remaining Nexus exclusives and forever free.

jet4571 wrote: Good luck seeing that happen.

A bit of advice for you, if you are not modding for your own game then releasing because others may enjoy it as well then you are doing it wrong. If your motivation is recognition and money then grab either the Unreal or Unity engine and make something you own and sell it. You will get the recognition if the game is good and make far more than the %25 Beth and Valve is offering.

I have been modding since Windows 95 was the latest OS and Win 98 was just around the corner, Had Paypal donations available since 2006 I think and not received one donation and during the mid 2000's I was making complete game overhauls that took a year or more to make without a proper SDK like the CK. As in Hex editor was an essential tool to get every 3D model working. Not a single donation for 4 years spending almost every free moment creating lists in a text editor and changing 3d Models in a hex editor. And you know what? Even if those were the top downloaded mods for the 3 games they were made for that's perfectly fine. Why? Because I did it for myself first. I have an unfinished game using the Unreal engine that I can work on but making it for a job just isn't as fun.

I hope you understand that I am offering advice on how to keep modding fun and still have a place for creating something for recognition and money and that none of this was an attack. I do feel you are modding for the wrong reasons and that's why the donations thing gets to you.

cplfernandez wrote: If people really believed in the donate option, wouldn't they be lining up to donat money to you in order to try to change your mind? Is that happening?

jfisha wrote: If you're giving some money to SkyUI for use of their MCM, don't forget to kickback some to SKSE, since the MCM relies on that

akkalat85 wrote: Hold it man, that's not cool. Not about you uploading the workshop, who cares... but about you using this nexus topic as a means to promote a 3rd party pay site. You advertising "future" features like that here is pretty shady.

Valve is giving you all the boost you need, but to come to a free site and self promote your paid product is just low.

phenderix wrote: @jet4571
Thanks for the comment. I think that is one reason I have decided to do this. I mainly mod for other people instead of myself. It is not really that exciting to use spells that you created.

@cplfernandez
Donation does not work, period. I have received one donation in almost 3 years of modding. People act like the system is fine, but never donate. Some other model needs to be implemented. If one were introduced I would definitely listen.

@akkalat85
Once again, this makes no sense. If my mod gets a purchase on the Steam Workshop the Skyrim Nexus will receive part of the revenue. Please research how the new system will work.

akkalat85 wrote: @phenderix: So far no one has brought fourth evidence for that claim. You will have to excuse my disbelief, but I don't believe things just because someone said so. If you have a link, please share it.

If a mod author lists the nexus as an influential figure in helping them in their modding hobby they can opt to list them, just as people have listed AFK mods (who also runs a free service), You could list google if you wanted too.

Impulseman45 wrote: I can understand putting allot of time into modding. I have put hundreds of hours into making meshes that are now on permanent hold because of possible theft by the creeps at the Steam Workshop. Anyone who has a mod and it gets put behind that pay-wall without their consent will never get it taken down. Vavle has all but said all mods are far game to steal the content from. So you are joining the side that is going to steal its way to power. Someone has already stolen and posted Soolies Real Clouds mod there today. And, do you realize that they own your mods from now on. Just look at what Chesko said about trying to take his mod down. They got what they wanted from him and that is what they will with you. Good luck. Your going to need it.

phenderix wrote: After getting over 50 comments and messages and many respectful responses I have changed my mind and will keep all of my mods free and Nexus exclusive. I trust Nexus staff to have a good solution to this problem.

JohnnyH1982 wrote: welp, good luck to you. I just unsubscribed from all Steam Workshop mods from all games supported and I don't plan on going back. I respect your hustle, but I don't agree at all with Valves implementation. And I do say best of luck, with good intentions, I am not being snarky or disingenuous.
Ciao

Impulseman45 wrote: Bravo, I hope my comment had a little input on things, but everyone should be thrilled that you made this change of heart. I only hope other modders do the same. Here is crossing finger and toes.

WightMage wrote: Seriously?

As in, no sarcasm intended?

Then, I am glad you were able to see reason, friend. And besides, even if you do want to eventually be paid for your work, now is the worst possible time.

It would be like studying abroad in a country during a civil war.

mrinanis wrote: imho if you want to be paid for a mod you shoule asking for donations.

if you want a real s mod then you should ork in the gaming industry and NOT make mods... but DLCs

akkalat85 wrote: Wight is absolutely correct. The community is throwing labels and slurs like my ex throws babies. Now is not a great time to add anyone's name to the workshop.

Your unexpected change of heart is not only shocking, but is inspiring. Here, have a kudos.

So far I've speculated on some of the issues mod authors would soon be facing after joining hands with Valve...

For example what would happen if a mod author releases a paid mod on workshop and then let's say he/she gets banned from Steam. Because Valve now owns your property, a consequence of this could be legal ramification if you then at some point uploaded an updated version to the nexus, or any site for that matter. Even though the creative mind was you, you technically don't own your own mod any longer and if Valve wanted to get nasty they could send you desist letters.

Or in the case of Fores, his animations will forever be uploaded to the workshop against his will. Anyone that purchased Chesko's fishing mod will forever have access to Fore's animation even though Fore will never see a penny. What's worse, what's to stop one of users with that file from then using those animations in their own personal mod. The expectations that we are going to police ourselves is ludicrous.

WightMage wrote: Though to be fair, don't the terms of using CK state that whatever we create belongs to Bethesda by default? I was a bit confused (but, sadly, not surprised by) Chesko's reaction when Valve Legal refused to let him take Arissa 2.0 off the workshop, though he claimed it was 100% his.

My impression was that ultimately, he and Griefmyst only really owned the voice files- everything else was made using programs that they signed EULA's for.

akkalat85 wrote: Yes that's most likely correct. In the past great mods like "Weapon Mod Kits" have been an inspiration for future game systems Bethesda creates. A user most likely cannot try to engage in a legal dispute due to this very reason.

I remember when "Build Your Own Home" was released. A couple months later Bethesda released "Hearthfire". It could be odd timing, but it's no secret Bethesda has used the modding community in the past for bright ideas to capitalize on. In the case of Antistar's WMK mod, they openly thanked him for the idea and Antistar viewed is as a recognition of his accolades and good publicity in the professional world.

I would personally be flattered as well. It depends on how you look at it. Of course, Bethesda doesn't do a carbon copy. They rewrite the entire system in house, but the ideas come from this site. It's pretty much impossible to lay claim to an idea though so whether Bethesda owns our esps or not I doubt it matters in the long run.

cTuck88 wrote: I applaud you in doing this. Not because I feel the users have a right to free mods, nor because I feel modders are getting greedy and jumping at Valve/Bethesda's doggy treat offer of 25%, but because you had a moment of clarity in this virtual s#*!-storm (pardon my French.)

It is too early to be picking one side or the other in this debate. People had already chosen sides before this became official, and now Valve has simply opened the gates and released the hounds, content to watch us tear each other apart while laughing and counting their new shiny coins. Best thing to do is to take a step back for a minute and get a better view of the big picture. Many great concerns have been brought up such as collabs, mod requirements, and piracy. What will Valve do to correct these things? Will they even give a damn? Do you really want to be joining their side without knowing that whether or not they will even fight for you or back you up? And on the "Freeside", many say they will start donating now just to keep you off the SW. Will they? Do you trust them anymore than you do Valve? Will they help out with identifying and reporting piracy of your work should someone else try to sell it on the SW?

Far too soon to join either Valvthesda or Freeside. Talk with people, debate the finer points and concerns, and then after some time (when the wolves calm down a bit) make an informed decision that you feel is right.

And that goes for everyone. Modders can chose to use a paywall, donation, or free distribution of their mods. Users can chose to pay, donate, or use freely given mods. No one has the right to say whether that person made the right choice or not. It is their choice alone. All I ask is that you make one after being well informed.

TL; DR I applaud phenderix for taking a step back to look at things and will ultimately respect any decision that mod makers/users decide to make. All I suggest is that you make it an informed one.

Joeblivion wrote: I think you are making a good choice in changing your mind to making all your mods Nexus exclusive.

When I initially read your first post, I immediately decided that if I saw a mod with your name on it I would skip it and move on out of principle.

I am very pleased that you changed your mind though. You have restored a little bit of my hope for the future of the modding community of Skyrim in general.

I hope that you continue to get endorsements and praise despite what Valve and Beth are doing.

phenderix wrote: Thank you all for the comments.
I heavily considered whether or not to do this all day.


The respectful comments and messages I have received from users and modders on this site made me change my mind.

I hope the community can unite and figure out a solution to all of this instead of just cursing at one another and ripping people that make a decision to monetize their mods. I am sure there is some way that everyone can benefit.

digitaltrucker wrote: Whatever happens, the modding community will never be the same after this :(

cTuck88 wrote: @ digitaltrucker

Sadly, you are correct. This has divided the modding community into so many factions. Some will stick it out going free, having to fight a whole host of new problems (well not really new, but much more toxic) such as paid piracy, potential copyright/DMCA threats and god knows what else. Some will get burned by this so badly that they will simply stop modding forever, which is a very sad thing to think about. And others will rise up because of this to be the new generation of mod makers, whether to champion for or against this new way of modding.

digitaltrucker wrote: In any event the past, oh, five years or so will be remembered as the golden age of modding...and it ended with a quarter.

@Digitaltrucker

And that's probably the core issue for me. This was an atom bomb dropped out of nowhere and suddenly nothing will ever be the same.

[Deleted3507349User]

In response to post #24615349. #24615514, #24615539, #24615594, #24615744, #24615844, #24616559, #24616664, #24616684, #24616839, #24616949, #24617094, #24617659, #24617939, #24617944, #24618744, #24623334, #24624164 are all replies on the same post.

Axeface wrote:

Ventry wrote: Your in the minority.
You do realize this right?

CaptainGame wrote: Not the idea of people asking for money for pay that bugs me - I can easily ignore the "dollar for new sword" nonsense, and there will always be people willing to mod for love of the game... but from what I hear, A. The money split is 30% to Valve, 45% to Bethesda, and 25% to the modder, B. Modder doesn't get a thing until they make $100 (AFTER the pay split) and C. Pay is exclusively in Steam wallet credit.

This is blatantly and obviously an attempt to lure people into making DLC on the cheap.

thestoryteller01 wrote: Most people on Steam are calling Valve greedy for giving the modders only 25%, only a few spoiled brats are actually blaming the modders for anything.

But of course many say that if every contacted modder had flatly refused to participate in the trial run, we wouldn't have this mess.

dechurch wrote: "We will see more quality, better support, and better updates from modders."

You keep telling yourself that.

"very, VERY few people are going to get rich doing this. Very few. Think about this before calling people greedy."

Certainly not any modders.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "very, VERY few people are going to get rich doing this. Very few. Think about this before calling people greedy."

While I agree with what you are saying, is it not the above that is part of the problem. As a lot of people will be doing a lot of work but not sharing in most of the financial benefits, the benefits that keep a roof over our heads. The point being that it is not only modding that things like this are happening.

Full respect to you, I am just trying to bring up a point because I think this discussion really matters if we (as the consumer/content provider) are going to help Valve avoid exploiting its customers.

Axeface wrote: @Ventry. That doesn't mean I am wrong. Some would argue that it actually means I am right, because I am able to think clearly, and for myself - not just follow the screaming and shouting crowd.

Jupezus wrote: I'm just annoyed by this, Valve is advertising this as " Support the modders",
while they take 75% of the cut. That's just plain disgusting.

Ramon1 wrote: Here, aim all those passive aggressive insults towards Chesko that just now realized what's it like to deal with megacorporations like Valve or Bethesda:

I thought discussion was moderated in this place??? Doesn't matter, too few people are remotely attempting at defending this and failing hard at it.

chinkaninka wrote: It's probably Valve's way of trying to get more people to use the steam workshop... But who would actually be stupid enough to spend money on a MOD. Who's actually looked at the paid mods page? Totally not worth it. I've made a couple of crappy mods myself, and they are NOT worth paying for... The "mods" I made are the kind of thing painted all over the steam workshop. I would just download something else, preferably something worth downloading, for FREE. Oh, and to the people who agree with this, are you trolling or did you just make your claim without sufficient evidence to back it up?

Axeface wrote: @Jepezus. Totally agree, I said that at the end of my post. 75% to the corps is wrong, but this applies to basically ANYTHING creative in the world.... the creator getting screwed by the publisher. While I understand that beth made the game, and steam is selling it. The modders are being treated like the 'middle man', as if their content has little value and they are simply adding value to the main product, when they are actually content creators. They need to have a bigger cut. 50% would be acceptable. But, corporations are evil and will try to bleed everyone dry (fact).

Aquilathestne wrote: Instead of forcing eveyrone from some guy with kids to feed and a 13 yearold without a job, perhaps this should simply be a wake up call to show more respect to our mod authors and donate? the donation system would be more effective if we all considered: would i rather be forced to pay a small amount, or give a big donation to mod authors i love? phendrix says he only has had 1 donation. lets flood our favorite authors with donations on nexus. Heck, even the ones who went to steam but still have mods here. show the appreciation for free content.

t1amat wrote: http://www.pcgamer.com/fake-protest-mods-hit-the-steam-workshop/?ns_campaign=article-feed&ns_mchannel=ref&ns_source=steam&ns_linkname=0&ns_fee=0

Maruun wrote: I am more worried about the general direction.

Every modder that puts his "mod" as a buyable product isnt a modder anymore.
He is a User Generated Content creator, with a pretty bad pay.

Modding was always a community effort, creating, sharing, learning. Now money is involved. This changes everything.

Didnt we had quality mods before? Sure and we had alot of "bad" mods unfinished ect.
But that will NOT change with this paid mod thing....if at all it will get worse.

I cant argue agains modder trying to take some kind of compensation for their hard work, but a paywall?

The next thing leaving the modders aside, i hope it will only be "doom and gloom" but we know how the DLC dilemma started, is there a market they get away with it, and we know what consequences we got from that.

Now they start offering modders to be paid slaves for Beth right now its optionall, but that was of course only logical it would be to hard to DRM mods backwards. Fallout 4 is about to be announced, and its not a coincidence that this shitstorm was started before Fallout 4 was announced.

Do you really think when Beth starts monetising the work of OTHERS they will tolerate any competition? I fear we will see that Beth says again how they will "Support" modding behind a paywall were most of the profit goes to Beth after they released a buggy/shitty console port for a game that will AGAIN depend on modders to get fixed, the best part they dont even pay a single $ for the fixxed noooo even better THEY get paid and DONT even have to work for it, because "modder" no excuse UGC-Programers will push out small "mods" in order to fix a broken game in hope to get some payment...

I stop here...i just get angry when i think about it...

MrRedshark wrote: You're right. Very few people are going to get rich.

But a whole lot more people are going to get poorer.

Vault Tec wrote: Instead of insulting people, you should have spent the time reading into what is going on because from what I've just read, you're not all that clued up.

Many are angry because a lot of modders have just up stick and left the Nexus etc behind, most have also recently promised an updated version to be uploaded here and it appears on the Workshop instead, with the previously supported version being dropped without a word (Wet & Cold). There's also an issue with asset developers not being paid. A great example is the fishing mod which used Fore's idle animations. Fore was not contacted as the author was under an NDA up till yesterday and as such, was not getting paid or had even been asked if it was ok to ask for payment using his assets (there is a PCGamer article on it with screencaps of Fore saying that he was not asked). That mod has since been removed, and refunds being given out to anyone who bought it as Fore mods as a hobby, not for payment.

The "75% rumour" isn't actually a rumour _at all_.

https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/about/?appid=72850

"The percentage of revenue an item creator receives from direct sales of their item in this Workshop is 25%, as stipulated in the Supplemental Workshop Terms.."

On top of this, modders will have to meet milestones before being paid.

You mention "More quality mods", actually this has had the *opposite* effect. Now that there's an incentive for making free money, scumbags are stealing mods from the Nexus and uploading them as their own (as mentioned in the above article). It's now a matter of "Is this a mod or a cash grab?". The same story keeps happening with Greenlight, with a large chunk of recently submitted 'games' being blatant rip offs (the recent Hotline Miami clone which somehow got into the store) or are extremely obvious cash grabs with the authors having no intention to support it any further once it's in the store.

Many have used that tired and over-trodden reason "You don't have to buy it" blah blah but as a matter of fact, I may not have to buy it but I sure as hell have to navigate such cash grabs to find any potential mods I would want to buy (this is an example. I refuse to line Bethesda and VALVe's pockets off the back of someone else) which will affect legit mod authors as I will not navigate hundreds of pages of mods if page after page is 75% filled with cash grabs with no guarantee of prolonged support. While we're on the subject, since the workshop is now "unregulated", after the 24 hours guaranteed refund period is up, and I quote here, in order to get a refund I must "Politely ask the mod developer". Right so Mr. Russian who has created a cash grab (which was not obvious at first) and has broken it/been broken by another mod is guaranteed to give me my money back? Pull the other one!

Among other issues, a customer can 'buy' a mod, copy the files out of the Data folder onto another drive or another folder and request a refund. The author is now out of pocket, VALVe/Bethesda are keeping the cash and you've got a free mod with your money back. This was proved when a member of the PCMasterRace subreddit tested this and reported back that it worked. Immoral? Yes, but VALVe/Bethesda taking 75% of the takings is leagues ahead regarding being immoral versus a person copying files for 'mod piracy'.

Yes, mod developers should be given the option to be paid but most definitely not like this. The Nexus method, I feel, will be much more successful. There have been many mods I've downloaded which I've felt were very high quality and have actually donated accordingly (over £5) but a lot of pages don't have a donate option (which this update will fix) so even if I wanted to donate, it's pretty damn hard in some cases. In VALVe's case, I must buy the mod before I can even try it and think of it as being worth while which I disapprove of since a donation/payment should be earned, not given 'just because'.

Joeblivion wrote: @Axeface I have not been on the steam forums to witness, for myself, the extent of the response of the community to the actions of Valve/Beth and while I do not endorse over the top, negative responses, (ie. death threats, etc.) I can say that we cannot discredit the community's response because of the negative feedback.

We are voicing our displeasure at this move by Valve and Beth. The majority of the community supports the FREE distribution of modded content and those modders who decide that they would like to take the 'Valve' approach and try to monetize that content are telling the community of users that they value the dollar over the enjoyment of expressing creativity, dedication and skillful prowess in regards to their modded content.

Your position confuses me because in your first post, you support Valve's decision, claiming it will promote higher quality mods (which is debatable).

Yet later in your responses you go on to claim that corporations are 'evil' and ALWAYS try to suck everyone dry.

Despite this, you still support an 'evil' corporation, that is setting up an easy cash grab, that undermines the creativity of modders, short changes them for their efforts, moves us one step closer to eliminating free modding altogether, perpetuates pirating (now for mods, of all things) and is trying to remove our free exchange of content.

Monetizing modded content will not create better content. People will find ways to maximize the amount of money they make, while putting in the least amount of effort.
Don't believe me? Just follow what Beth and Valve are doing.

Beth makes 37.5% of all profits for every download, while only having to pay for a game that they developed 4 years ago and no longer support.

Valve makes 37.5% of all profits for every download, while only having to upkeep the workshop and overseeing every transaction/download.

The people actually doing any work get paid only 25% of profits made per download.

This is what happens when you put the importance of the dollar bill above the importance of creativity, community sharing, desire for prestige and passion for supporting something you love.

WightMage wrote: I'm sorry, but the movie, art, publishing, music, and even porn industry disagree with you. A monetary incentive has not, and will NOT guarantee an improvement in quality of products, because frankly, it isn't profitable. Industries are more likely to find something that is relatively stable, appeals to a wide demographic of customers, and isn't too avant garde or too boring, and milk it until they move onto the next big thing.

As an example, take the Call of Duty and Assassin's Creed franchises- these games have not innovated anything in the past few years of their development, and while CoD has become a joke meme to refer to flashy but ultumately substance less entertainment (not unlike Michael Bay's films), the last Assassin's Creed, Unity, was absolutely REAMED by both the press and customers alike for being a clunky, horribly glitched, unfinished piece of crap that was rushed out with next to know beta testing and relied on hype and diehard fans for its sales- which is exactly how it recouped costs. And Ubisoft has absolutely no incentive to make the next game any better, because they don't want to waste money on the chance their mext IP may fail.

Why do so many great and innovative mods get created? Because their authors have no financial incentive- the only incentive they have is their own personal interest to see something realized, made by themselves, for themselves. And by sharing it with other people, fellow modders either ignore it if they think its a bust, or contribute to it, FOR FREE, if they think it has potential, or think it just needs a little push in the right direction. Their incentive? Personal reasons- arguably even selfish ones, but constructive ones nonetheless.

You want to know what will REALLY happen with the paid skyrim mods page? Fancy hats. Porn skin texture mods. New weapon models which don't actually so anything except look cool. Copy and pasted mods from foreign countries that have been conveniently altered just enough that they pass as "not copywrite infringing," or otherwise stolen from unknown or smalltime modders who cannot mount a defense of their work.

Spending egregious amounts of time making massive projects would not only be unlikely, but unprofitable. In the amount of time a single mod author would spend to create such a mod and price it accordingly, they can, and would, be doing something else that makes them far more money in a shorter span of time for less risk. Like the above mentioned shovelware. That is not even considering that even if they formed into groups, dividing the profits up evenly would be a nightmare that would likely destroy inexperienced teams (and lets be honest here, most modders are amateur game developers at best, not people with at least five years experience in the field and experience working on deadlines with other strangers), which is to say, most of them. Look at kickstarter projects for games that have failed, and look at kickstarter projects for games that have succeeded the kickstarter, but failed afterward (Dysfunctional Systems). For most people in it for the money, it is simply not worth the time, or in their best interest, to make anything with a quality level beyond mediocre.

In conclusion, I am actually not against modders receiving compensation of some kind. But what people seem to forget is that they are not Sid Meier, Molyneux, or Gaben- you are not a professional, and if you were, you wouldn't be wringing your hands trying to make a living off of modding games, you would be freelancing, getting contracts, working on some indie title or already in the field. You aren't J.K.Rowling or Stephanie Meyer or Stieg Larsson- you are some kid who wrote a book in looseleaf with a number 2 pencil and think you are entitled to being paid via a vanity publishing company (look up why that's a bad thing). You aren't Christopher Nolan- you are a kid with an expensive camera that made a decent 15 minute demo reel and show some compentence with After Effects, trying to get a Hollywood commission.

You are a person who spends their free time making modifications for a game you already paid for, using tools you are under license to use, not own, using content that is NOT yours, and using other people's content that they have graciously let you have for free. So while you should certainly have some compensation of some kind, remember that ultimately you aren't anywhere near as entitled to things as you believe you are.

Signed, a struggling business owner in a different entertainment field with a similar problem.

Funny how few mod authors thought they were 'entitled to compensation' before this paid model came along...seem to be more of them now.

[DrImportantInformation]

I greatly appreciate Nexus's position on this, but there is an additional danger far greater to gaming that may be overlooked by some.

 

There is a financial push to make games that don't entertain or enlightening their audiences, and instead try to trick and coerce them out of money while offering little-to-no content, such as "freemium" cell phone games. This has already begun in Skyrim, as now there are "FREE" mods on the workshop that have *pop-ups* in game suggesting that you pay for the premium versions: https://archive.is/7WTzl. This is truly sad, and might represent the beginning of a corrosive trend towards oblivion.

 

The only value that the company would be adding would be as a gatekeeper, eliminating buggy or bad mods, but they claim that they're not taking that responsibility, so the only thing they are taking is 75%. What value are they adding to warrant that?

 

As a final point, most mods are buggy, or incomplete. They are developed through play-testing in the community, feedback and free help from other modders. Bugs are not acceptable in paid products, and neither is free playtesting or free troubleshooting. Money as a primary motivation results in an industry environment in which technology is kept secret, and people don't trust each-other or work together.

 

I'm greatly disturbed Bethesda has decided to go along with this. They are selling their brand image and good name. We need a hero, one to stand up to them who speaks their tongue and can save our world.

[Raycheetah]

In response to post #24617279. #24618539, #24618579, #24618659, #24620524, #24622754, #24623014 are all replies on the same post.

Raycheetah wrote:

Brasscatcher wrote: While I find your viewpoint refreshing and provocative, I cannot help but point out that the way IP law works these days does not foster an air of sportsmanlike competition. Let someone prove to be a competitor to valve/bethsoft et al. The lawyers will come with DMCA claims, and sites will die.

If we keep modding a hobby, free, we are legally untouchable within certain boundaries; if we take Valve's silver, we invite a violent change to that status. Some chose to do that, for their own reasons, and I fear that by doing so, we've let the vampires in. I'm going to wait to see what comes of this change in paradigms before I publish a damn thing, that's for certain.

TheEyelessWanderer wrote: @Brasscatcher.


This. ^

Darkieus wrote: I need a lawyer, c'mere.

jonboy wrote: This storm has moved me to consider the time I have spent enjoying modded Skyrim (and other Bethesda games, and even older Total War games) and how the modder's work has greatly increased my enjoyment, and even driven me to purchase these games in the first place. These modder's are definitely worthy of some gratitude (donations), which I will start doing over this weekend.

Tantalus010 wrote: Brasscatcher is right; this will turn into a legal fiasco for all involved. My fear is that modding will be destroyed as a result of that fiasco. It's at the very least going to be a PR nightmare for both Valve and Bethesda, and deservedly so.

WightMage wrote: Honestly, we should all probably be enjoying what we can out of the Nexus and our precious mods while we can, and donate to those people we can while there is still time.

You've brought up something important that I think we're forgetting- ultimately, we're all on borrowed time. Nothing lives forever.

@Brasscatcher

What we have been used to is mods which are, for all intents and purposes, equivalent to fanfic. That is, they are creative works which build on and expand an existing IP (in this case, Skyrim), distributed for free.

As demonstrated by Valve's new compensation structure and rules, with direct, quid pro quo payment, Bethesda has, through Valve, effectively authorized these as "licensed" derivative works. The slippery slope comes from Valve's claiming de facto ownership of all paid mods on the Steam Workshop, as authors surrender the right to take down those files.

So long as Bethesda doesn't decide to make some kind of legal grab for any other derivative works based on Skyrim, even outside Valve's distribution outlet, the Nexus (for example) remains a good alternative for "free" distribution of Skyrim and other mods. I can't see Bethesda squawking much, so long as any compensation to mod authors, here, remains disconnected from the specific works, i.e., donations/tips. In fact, as long as free distribution of mods has gone on, I'm not sure that, all else being equal, Bethesda could make a legal claim which would stand up in court, though, as is often the case, the side with the deepest pockets usually wins.

For now, the Nexus is here for users and authors who prefer things the way they were. I hope we don't see too many mod authors migrate to Steam, and I hope Bethesda doesn't get stupid and try to strangle the golden goose which modding has been for their games for so many years.

Time will tell. For now, as I see it, the biggest issue is protecting the rights of mod authors from thieves. Valve hasn't demonstrated much interest in this, and why would they? After all, "free range" mods have no value to them, and what rights have mod authors to protect derivative works not sanctioned under contract by Bethesda and their agent?

Fair play? I wouldn't expect it. Active skullduggery? We may already be seeing it. ='[.]'=

[cTuck88]

In response to post #24624259.

ltp777 wrote:

"Without that incentive, future games may only support mods via Steam."

This is my biggest concern of this whole ordeal. What happens if the publishers and developers see this as a potential for extra cash flow and do start putting in DRM-like gates to force all mods through Steam? Free sites like the Nexus would be targeted by these companies and would have the legal hammer dropped down hard. Modding anarchists would find ways around said DRM-like ways, but that would push the modding scene underground and make us (in the corporate eye) no better than pirates.

[skyfrost077]

In response to post #24621944. #24622864, #24623944, #24624154 are all replies on the same post.

Anataron wrote:

WightMage wrote: Well said.

skyfrost077 wrote: Thanks, and Kudos, for a reasoned response Anataron. It's funny...if the posters who spend so much time fueling the "hatestorm" as you called it, would simply open the CK and take an hour or two to create a 10 simple mods...such as changing Jarl Balgruff's name to Jarl Gruff-Balls, or Belethor the sleazy little merchant to "Valvthesda the sleazy little merchant"...there would be hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of crap mods that no one would ever pay for.
Payroll and Benefits account for the majority of a corporations expenses. Force Valvthesda hire more employees to review mods that no one buys and their return on investment would vanish... then this would all go away. The way to hit them in their wallet is not just to avoid paying for their mods, it is equally important to force them to open their wallet for Payroll and Benefits to support this. Double the money, Double the fun, Doublemint, Doublemint, Doublemint Gum! Unless I have underestimated the stupidity of the marketplace in which case everyone who supported my foolish notion at least gets some cash.

digitaltrucker wrote: Perhaps the thing to do is upload a mod that essentially reverses the changes made by another mod (for immersive or lore-friendly reasons of course). It won't be an empty ESP. *chuckle* Could start a chain of mods that makes changes/reverses them/remakes them/re-reverses them....ad infinitum. They'd all have to be created by different authors, you realize.

Yes! Even if they are not related, it could work. If even a few people with some free time just spammed the hell out of the Paid Mod uploads they could easily force Valve to substantially increase their payroll to review...their own requirements force them to vet every mod that is posted, and as long as the mods do not violate the Terms of Use, Valve has to add them to the site. If the paid mod page is full of dogshi+ then people will stop going and their profit flies away. What I would never encourage is for 1% of these posters to include the phrase "Elsa from the Disney Copyrighted Juggernaut that is Frozen" because I am sure that none of the over-worked exploited reviewers may be asleep at the switch and lets one of these through... god-forbid Valve makes a dime from the legal quagmire of Disney...because I am sure Disney would not come down on Valve like the Hammer of the recently Disney acquired character Thor and hammer them into the dirt. Really, don't do this...stop...why are you doing...whatever, I told you no, but you are all grown ups

[elleln]

Thanks for this update Dark0ne, and I am happy with the nexus' standpoint in this troublesome matter. I wasn't aware there was donation avaible to mod authors and I'm glad it is being brought forward. Even with its draw backs and problems. I have enjoyed the nexus since I played Morrowind, and I hope to see you stay for many more years. Kudos on great work, truly.

 

 

[Deleted3507349User]

In response to post #24624259. #24624584 is also a reply to the same post.

ltp777 wrote:

cTuck88 wrote: "Without that incentive, future games may only support mods via Steam."

This is my biggest concern of this whole ordeal. What happens if the publishers and developers see this as a potential for extra cash flow and do start putting in DRM-like gates to force all mods through Steam? Free sites like the Nexus would be targeted by these companies and would have the legal hammer dropped down hard. Modding anarchists would find ways around said DRM-like ways, but that would push the modding scene underground and make us (in the corporate eye) no better than pirates.

That future is likely to happen in any case. And if (when) it does, any unauthorized modder will be no different than someone who torrented the original game.

[Foedawg]

In response to post #24624259. #24624584, #24624889 are all replies on the same post.

ltp777 wrote:

cTuck88 wrote: "Without that incentive, future games may only support mods via Steam."

This is my biggest concern of this whole ordeal. What happens if the publishers and developers see this as a potential for extra cash flow and do start putting in DRM-like gates to force all mods through Steam? Free sites like the Nexus would be targeted by these companies and would have the legal hammer dropped down hard. Modding anarchists would find ways around said DRM-like ways, but that would push the modding scene underground and make us (in the corporate eye) no better than pirates.

digitaltrucker wrote: That future is likely to happen in any case. And if (when) it does, any unauthorized modder will be no different than someone who torrented the original game.

The hell are you talking about?