Steam Service Providers, and some how needing to clarify the Nexus stance again

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24700324.

jase180 wrote:

In the day and age of suspicion, anger and crafty politicians (election time here in UK) you sir are someone (I have never met) that I could not agree more with.

Internet. Creativity. Freedom.

[anonownsyou]

In response to post #24699154. #24699914, #24700424 are all replies on the same post.

Chesko wrote:

popcorn71 wrote: So your just going to leave and pretend none of this ever happened? I feel bad for you. I really do. But the way I see things, you have a responsibility to help fix this mess that you are, how ever unwittingly, impart responsible for. I think you'll find that if you really try to make amends people will be surprisingly willing to forgive you and even rally around and defend you. This is a community after all.

Fowldragon wrote: OMFG...Even if you're his DADDY, you got no right to expect a thing from this man. The man tapped out...its time to release the hold.

I love you Chesko, I really don't get to say that enough. Hang in there, despite the way the wind may be blowing, you're among friends.

[lobo3222]

In response to post #24679789. #24680359, #24680884, #24680909, #24681594, #24683019, #24683494, #24686649, #24686714, #24687229, #24689004, #24689919, #24699554, #24700244 are all replies on the same post.

GhostAgent wrote:

Welewa wrote: Personally, I like this idea. I would endorse it :D and I would donate to my favorite modders as a show of support and appreciation.

bigdeano89 wrote: A "would you like to donate?" popup has already came up on my download page on a few mods today, that made me think about donating, which I did! If you put the idea into peoples heads they will do it.

TKHBMVP wrote: I like this and I'm happy Dark0ne has already implemented the popup note to notice users about the donation feature here on Nexus.

mALX1 wrote:
These are some fantastic ideas. I would also like to see a donate button on that row of buttons for the Endorsements and Votes - so the person who comes back to endorse sees the donate option then; while they are endorsing and commenting the mod.

(To me, it is a better option than the one popping up on download before you even know if you like the mod or if it works).

secondmoto381 wrote: This idea is the key, it would help bring some modders who have already stated that they are moving to the Workshop for the money back to the Nexus. Not to mention that tons more people would donate on the "merit system".

SjoertJansen wrote: @mALX1

The donate button is already there, next to the vote button.

And I generally like the ideas, Good ideas. The popup is already there as well. Just activate the feature in your edit attributes.

Elta1 wrote: Wow... I think that is very cool. Trying to make a system more on promoting donation by not requiring it. I think he is on to something.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ GhostAgent

Your intellectual property has been Endorsed!

AverageZombie wrote: This is a great idea if Nexus was a primary distributor but this has potential political ramifications with Valve and Bethesda considering they now stand to make money off of this. Rolling out a system to endorse donations on this site means Nexus would be pressuring mod authors to create content here (which is good, don't get me wrong) instead of on the Steam Workshop to get their income which can be seen as attempting to strong arm Bethesda and Valve. Doing that any time soon could damage relations considering how much public opinion would be swayed.

It's like a pendulum that's been lifted by with a string that represents change. If he enrolls a new system of income it cuts the string granting immediate relief of pressure but causes the public opinion to sway heavily and without direction. So in effect, cutting the string create a much more volatile situation.

anonownsyou wrote: This is good. Yes.

mALX1 wrote:

Ha! I just saw that, Thank you!

GhostAgent wrote: I want to thank each and everyone one of you for taking the time to read my long post and replying. I even got a kudos from someone (thank you). This backs my theory that the community is full of kind people willing to give. I believe we outnumber the rude (and to be blunt: "jerks") that have been yelling loudly lately. The difference is that we are gentlemen and it is not in our nature to behave so badly. This is in fact, a gentleman's response to any paid model plans. There is no call to arms, no "us vs them" attitude, just simply a better way.

@AverageZombie
Thank you for voicing your concern. I would like to share with you a different view that I see happening. I think you as well as everyone else posting here sees that this has potential to grow--which is the entire concept. As I said at the top of the post: ". . .Nexus could incorporate (the ideas) and even be seen as the standard that others will follow."

You have caught on that this "raises" the Nexus (so to speak) to a higher playing field--which is the goal. There won't/can't be any political/legal ramifications due to the fact that this is still a donation based model--and a soft one at that. (No "required donations" to download.) Nobody at anytime can tell anyone that they are not allowed to donate/freely give time/money as a thank you. If the Nexus were to become a distributing platform like Steam, then we would need to use a different play. But as is, we are not a competitor and therefore, not a problem.

You also mentioned a pendulum swinging... and that is exactly what I am hoping for. If this model is implemented and succeeds, then mod authors have two choices as to which model they prefer to use (if not both!). They can submit their work to a pay model which guarantees at least a dollar for their work, or to a donation model in a community that prides itself on the idea of giving. (I am assuming they would actually make more profit from this one.)

That leaves Steam with a decision to make: 1) Continue using the model that they have which has seen some very heavy backlash, but is still off to a fairly good start, or 2) If this system proves to be more beneficial and PR friendly, to switch over to it instead (of course with some minor adjustments). If that happens, who wins? Everybody involved. :) And if Steam adopts this model, then you can bet others will follow, and the Nexus will have been the leader in influencing that. But, then again, it might not ever go that far. (But one can hope.)

Thank you again everyone for your comments.

AverageZombie wrote: @ GhostAgent
The problem isn't really Valve, the problem is for Bethesda. They have the rights, the legal team, and the money to throw against nexus if nexus attempts to reduce profits through donations. They don't have to even be correct, just filing the lawsuit costs everyone. Legally, both people will be required to throw money at the court system regardless of the validity of a lawsuit and they have more than enough to hit the Nexus just to spite them. That's the problem. They can and will bully smaller companies that try to mess with their babies (TES and Fallout). This was proven by their ridiculous attack against Mojang.

great idea ghostagent i love the idea :-)

[tonycubed2]

In response to post #24688489. #24688904, #24690914, #24691034, #24691269, #24691774, #24698794, #24698939, #24698984, #24699959, #24700204 are all replies on the same post.

Fowldragon wrote:

sunshinenbrick wrote: The compensation will be going to (mostly) the wrong people. What Pay Mods will do is give the wrong incentive for future modders... modders who do not know and are not part of the long history of game devlopment and pushing the boundaries. If it all goes pear shaped it will bite Valvesda in the ass.

Shame is it will also hurt the "ethical" gamers out there. That being said there will always be new games and new platforms.

Fowldragon wrote: How can it go to the wrong people?

I have no clue how compensation works, but I bet it will be "GAMED"..say, a mod is compensated on the basis of FAVES and SUBs...I know of multiple mods that have major support but never amounted to much or even got finished...One I know of had 500+ faves and 1500 subscriptions. It was to become a new world in the spirit of another FALSKAAR..it was on STEAM's hot list and yet it never grew more than .123Mbytes. It was suggested that the whole thing was a scam to see how many people would endorse a project that was NEVER intended to be Started...much less finished.

Even if it worked one time, it won't work again.."Fool me once, shame on you.Fool me twice, shame on me.". OTOH, not everyone's first try is a success. I imagine some of my favorite modders made a right mess of it their first time out.

STEAM recently added BLENDER to its modding tools. It reminded me of a History lesson ... the people who made the MOST MONEY during the 1849 California gold rush...were the people selling tools and supplies.

Lateraliss wrote: Fun fact. Did you know that the Bible isn't referencing the eye of a needle of a sewing needle? There was a gate in Jerusalem called The Eye of the Needle. It was too small for a camel and its baggage to get through, so the people would have to first take all the baggage off the camel and the camel would have to basically crawl through.

It's a good metaphor, as the camel would have to remove all its possessions before passing through the gate.

sunshinenbrick wrote: By "wrong people" I mean if someone free loads off other people's hard work and then goes to make loads of money selling it to unsuspecting people.

EDIT: Just to clarify that this is not implying everyone, but the way they seem to have set it up now appears to offer very little protection from abuse. I guess they figure that bad apples will be weeded out over time... in the meantime however.

I really think modders should see the real value of what they do and demand better conditions. Hey, a modders strike??

diyeath wrote: Principal and conviction are only luxuries when you surround yourself with an environment that's counter intuitive to those concepts.

Fowldragon wrote: @lateraliss..That IS a fun fact!! I honestly thought it was literally a needle.

@sunshinenbrick...Money always changes the game...and it always attracts the people who want to get something for nothing...but the net is a collective that has innumerable sets of eyes. My Best friends Mom used to always say, " What is concocted in the Dark, will always be revealed in the light of Day.
My greatest fear, is not of the few Toads that will MUCK it up...Rather, it will be the Stroti's Tamiras, Elianoras and literally Everyone who has ever given their work away for nothing more than the courtesy of being attributed for their work... who are forced to revoke that GOOD WILL

@diyeath People have to pay bills, a man/woman of Good Character and Conscience is no exception. I won't debate this. Life is full of examples of ordinary people who dealing with extraordinary circumstances make difficult but pragmatic decisions...Not every fight.

Fowldragon wrote: srry, "Not every fight, is the "GOOD FIGHT"

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ diyeath

Man, that is deep... That's got me thinking every which way! Love it :D

tonycubed2 wrote: That bible quote is used in the wrong context here. The Bible has no issues with a person being rich. King Solomon was filthy rich and it was a gift from God. Allowing gives to bring their pagan idols did him in, not wealth.

What the verse means is that we are not to replace God with money. We are not to make money into an idol. This applies to anything else as well. Anything can be made into an idol if we are not careful. Including poverty.

Fowldragon wrote: @ tonycubed2

I always knew it wasn't referring to wealth..otherwise Christians would condemn Mega Churches...Pastors like Benny Hinn, Peter Popov, Mike Murdock and Pastor DOLLAR...or the ENTIRE Roman Catholic Church Hierarchy.

Oh theres tons of pastors going to hell. The devil loves nothing more than convincing a person he is following God when in reality he is not. And then there are the bad apples fleecing the flock. But like in every other field or endeavor there are real God fearing true pastors as well as charlatans.

[WightMage]

In response to post #24699154. #24699914, #24700424, #24700529 are all replies on the same post.

Chesko wrote:

popcorn71 wrote: So your just going to leave and pretend none of this ever happened? I feel bad for you. I really do. But the way I see things, you have a responsibility to help fix this mess that you are, how ever unwittingly, impart responsible for. I think you'll find that if you really try to make amends people will be surprisingly willing to forgive you and even rally around and defend you. This is a community after all.

Fowldragon wrote: OMFG...Even if you're his DADDY, you got no right to expect a thing from this man. The man tapped out...its time to release the hold.

anonownsyou wrote: I love you Chesko, I really don't get to say that enough. Hang in there, despite the way the wind may be blowing, you're among friends.

You're a good man for coming back to apologize to Robin, Chesko. Not many people would swallow their pride like that- not in this industry, and most certainly not on the internet.

I'm sure that all will be forgiven in time, from the rest of us modders, but you should enjoy your time away. Think of it more as an extended vacation than self exile. ;)

Best.

[anonownsyou]

In response to post #24697914.

sunshinenbrick wrote:

;_;

[WightMage]

In response to post #24700324. #24700499 is also a reply to the same post.

jase180 wrote:

sunshinenbrick wrote: In the day and age of suspicion, anger and crafty politicians (election time here in UK) you sir are someone (I have never met) that I could not agree more with.

Internet. Creativity. Freedom.

Long live the Dark 0ne. Long live the Nexus, and all her children.

Only as a community can we save ourselves now.

[popcorn71]

In response to post #24699154. #24699914, #24700424, #24700529, #24700669 are all replies on the same post.

Chesko wrote:

popcorn71 wrote: So your just going to leave and pretend none of this ever happened? I feel bad for you. I really do. But the way I see things, you have a responsibility to help fix this mess that you are, how ever unwittingly, impart responsible for. I think you'll find that if you really try to make amends people will be surprisingly willing to forgive you and even rally around and defend you. This is a community after all.

Fowldragon wrote: OMFG...Even if you're his DADDY, you got no right to expect a thing from this man. The man tapped out...its time to release the hold.

anonownsyou wrote: I love you Chesko, I really don't get to say that enough. Hang in there, despite the way the wind may be blowing, you're among friends.

WightMage wrote: You're a good man for coming back to apologize to Robin, Chesko. Not many people would swallow their pride like that- not in this industry, and most certainly not on the internet.

I'm sure that all will be forgiven in time, from the rest of us modders, but you should enjoy your time away. Think of it more as an extended vacation than self exile. ;)

Best.

@ Fowldragon
Oh, yes I do have a right to expect him to fix his mistakes. And you do too.
He did an enormous amount of damage by not thinking his actions through. But that wasn't my point. As some one who has personal experienced how these things can turn out, Chesko is in a somewhat unique position to rally the community and actually make a difference. If he has even a shred of decency, he will work to ensure no one else goes through what he has.

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24699154. #24699914, #24700424, #24700529, #24700669, #24700794, #24700949, #24701494, #24701854, #24702124, #24702184, #24702309, #24702704, #24703104, #24703354, #24703374, #24704484, #24704939, #24705069, #24705264, #24707439, #24708649, #24709434, #24709769, #24709849, #24709869, #24709899, #24710859 are all replies on the same post.

Chesko wrote:

popcorn71 wrote: So your just going to leave and pretend none of this ever happened? I feel bad for you. I really do. But the way I see things, you have a responsibility to help fix this mess that you are, how ever unwittingly, impart responsible for. I think you'll find that if you really try to make amends people will be surprisingly willing to forgive you and even rally around and defend you. This is a community after all.

Fowldragon wrote: OMFG...Even if you're his DADDY, you got no right to expect a thing from this man. The man tapped out...its time to release the hold.

anonownsyou wrote: I love you Chesko, I really don't get to say that enough. Hang in there, despite the way the wind may be blowing, you're among friends.

WightMage wrote: You're a good man for coming back to apologize to Robin, Chesko. Not many people would swallow their pride like that- not in this industry, and most certainly not on the internet.

I'm sure that all will be forgiven in time, from the rest of us modders, but you should enjoy your time away. Think of it more as an extended vacation than self exile. ;)

Best.

popcorn71 wrote: @ Fowldragon
Oh, yes I do have a right to expect him to fix his mistakes. And you do too.
He did an enormous amount of damage by not thinking his actions through. But that wasn't my point. As some one who has personal experienced how these things can turn out, Chesko is in a somewhat unique position to rally the community and actually make a difference. If he has even a shred of decency, he will work to ensure no one else goes through what he has.

WightMage wrote: The abuse he's receiving does not preclude him from remembering the years of good that he experienced working here. And Chesko has been around awhile- longer than both of us, I imagine.

It's hard to let go when you have that kind of attachment.

popcorn71 wrote: Part of the reason he has been abused so badly is because he was so well respected. he was probably one for the last people I would have expected to go off and do something so collosaly stupid as what he did and he has payed dearly for it. You know the old saying: "the bigger they are, the harder they fall"? Well, case and point.

Believe me, I have an enormous amount of respect for Chesko. I took the time to dig through the scripts of Frostfall and figure out how it works. That mods a friken work of art. But just because I respect him doesn't mean I'm willing to give him a free pass.

WightMage wrote: No one is beyond reproach, but I believe Chesko can be forgiven in time. He's only human, after all.

Fowldragon wrote: @Popcorn

I get what you're saying...I mean really. But I am reading all of this and remembering reading Dark0ne's earlier blogs that he quoted. This might well have been something anticipated, but it was sprung in a moment...and likely as not it was purposeful in that respect...

Getting Dark' and Chesko to be at odds...getting veteran modders to speak of betrayal and question character...HELL that's just Icing on their Cake.

diyeath wrote: That's pretty mature of you to come here and say that. I'm sorry you ended up on the recieving end of so much abuse. I hope you don't take those crazies who were threatening you as the normal, they're the vocal minority.

I encourage you to come back to nexus, at this point everyone knows what happened and I think I can safely speak for most other mature members when I say I understand your position and not being used to that kind of flak. As far as I'm concerned its all water under the bridge.

In any case, regardless of what you decide I hope things are better for you now. Take care!

popcorn71 wrote: @ Fowldragon
Don't I know it. This whole thing stinks to high heaven. At this point you'd have to be out of your mind bat s#*! craze to put your mod up for sale on the workshop. And the worst part is some prominent moders are doing just that. Can any one say SkyUi?

UberSmaug wrote: Chesko as I see it you are the victim of bad advice. Whoever told you that if mod A needs mod B to work and mod A is paid for but mod B is free doesn't matter bears the most of the blame. Of course that matters. You got crucified for it unjustly. This was bound to happen to someone I'm sorry it was you. My heart goes out to you and I understand completely why you want to hide out for a bit. I hope you come back to us if and when you are ready. Cheers Mate.

Reaper0021 wrote: Chesko...your mods are ESSENTIAL for me to even begin to touch Skyrim. Period. That's what hurt me the most was seeing my favorite modder over at STEAM. In my eyes you're forgiven. Period. We all make mistakes. You have to remember too a lot of the 'flack' you were getting was from kids as well so they usually lash out 1st with the words of hate then when adults or rather those more 'mature' try to communicate with you it seems like the whole world is closing in around you. You apologized like a man, you're forgiven in my eyes.

Brasscatcher wrote: I'm with reaper. I've been touting how I'd never be able to touch Skyrim without Frostfall, having experienced the game with it. I'm still firmly against involving money with modding. I'm still firmly of the belief that if someone's reason for picking up the tools again was because someone waved cash at them it was for the wrong reasons, and they should prioritize the things in life that are profitable to them instead.


That said, I've also said that you being our first casualty of the attempt to monetize modding was a sad, sad thing. Good luck to you, buddy. I hope your life takes you to awesome places. IF I hear word you're deving a new game, I'll definitely check that out...and THAT would be something I'd pay for. :)

thestoryteller01 wrote: I'm afraid you won't be forgotten that easily.

But I mean that in a positive way. One of the benefits of modding, is that someone will always be remembered for the great work he or she did, not for something that has been said in a forum post.

empiric wrote: @popcorn:

He owes you nothing. If someone voluntarily contributes their time in making something of value to people, your attachment of your made-up expectations beyond that should elicit nothing but a curt dismissal. Getting something for free from someone else's time and work is a boon, demanding more is the perspective of a parasite.

popcorn71 wrote: Are you stupid or something? Go back and reread my posts and then think about them before you respond.

phantompally76 wrote: @empiric

When you drop a glass on the floor and it shatters into a hundred pieces, do you just walk off and leave it for someone else to clean up? Or do you take measures to sweep that glass up so no one gets hurt because of YOUR clumsiness?

Your personal answer to that question defines what kind of man you are. It also defines your level of hypocrisy.

Brasscatcher wrote: NICE metaphor, phantom. You turned that phrase like it had a knob.

I have a feeling we'll all be picking bits of this mess out of our heels for a while...and like the aftermath of a dropped glass, no matter how hard you sweep, you ALWAYS miss a few splinters that only become painfully apparent much later.

Dark0ne wrote: Hi Chesko,

I really respect you coming here to tell me that. I don't mean for this to sound patronising or condescending, but when you wrote that post on Reddit I knew you were hurting and were completely shell-shocked by the situation. While I was a bit miffed by the content, I couldn't bring myself to judge you poorly for it because I understood the circumstances that lead to it.

As I said in my response to your Reddit post, my Skype address is in one of the stickies in the private mod author forums. If you ever want to talk then you can add me any time.

CptnBrryCrnch wrote: I love your mods.

I really really really love your mods.

I will totally pay for your material when you are ready for it.

PROMETHEUS_ts wrote: There is nothing to amend for , He was just involved in a shitstorm he didn't deserve .
Personally I see nothing wrong with eventually the decision to ask for a monetization for the hard work done by some people .
And I would like to underline that Chesko works as well as the one of some very few selected others, stand above the average random mod and most often required "paid" tools and content that ends up in the making of those professional level free mods.
So a small monetary incentive is not really for greed and with a 25% is not really goingto make anyone a living , but might end up eventually paying certain expenses in some cases .
Despite it incentivates only minor small mods and not large and DLC sized ones .

riverreveal wrote: Chesko, right now you might feel like there are a lot of people against you, but in time people will look at you as being the first person to take on Valve and Bethesda and their ill-thought out policy changes.

Sure things could have been handled better, but thats life, you are trying to do the right thing now and that makes you a good person.

Dont give up modding, you are way too good to not be around.

Tigon_3rd wrote: I was really hurting when I read what had happened to you, and that they just threw you to the wolves like that, shame on them.

Hope to see you back in the future sometime.

mannygt wrote: I would like to see that everything is going to be calmed. The "paid mods" issue was a shock for all of us but there are no reasons to threat (even death threat, that's disgusting) the modders who started to sell their mods. It's only a matter of choice and I'm pretty sure that you have to respect who have started to sell the mods, even if the author was one of your preferred author. You cannot go in rage for this thing. You may protest against Valve and/or Bethesda but not the choices made by the modders. Your preferred modder has started to sell mods? Well, you have two choice: ignore him or pay him. End of story, no threat, death threats and insults. Move on, find other mods which are free. Mine are free, other great modders give free mods. But I'm not angry with who started to sell their mods. The Nexus is the place for free mods: open the page mod, click download, enable and you're ready to play. What do you want more? Chesko was thrown in a vortex that was too big for him. He don't deserve this treatment, neither the modders who want to sell their own mod. He needs to relax, and Dark0ne too. You must relax too. We must relax. This storm will ends soon.

LangleyBoy wrote: @popcorn71 He is human, hes allowed to make mistakes its the way we learn have you noticed? just because hes good at something doesn't mean he has to abide by ideals and expectations, this was a hobby and like all hobbies we all would want to make a living out of what we love to do, he should be forgiven for making a mistake that is being over exaggerated by the community who should of been there for that one mistake he made while valve was acting up, you guys should apologise, we're the ones who really screwed up here in terms of expectations from right and wrong, I don't know about you guys but its easier on the sideline then to be him in this, show a little support, instead of making it unnecessarily harder.

empiric wrote: @popcorn, @phantom: If it was my glass that I dropped, I'd do exactly what I wanted about it. If you dropped my glass you got for free, drinking my stuff you got for free, in my house, you aren't demanding I clean it up.

I do not know you personally at all but as a community member and I think that the feelings you obviously have for the Nexus are really what this is all about. Mutual respect. Something that seems to be seriously lacking from the developers.

Many people have spent the weekend working on ways in which we may help this community fight for mod creator protection. I hope you stand up for other modders so they do not get treated the way you have been.

Sorry to perhaps I'm giving advice on something I can only scratch at the surface of.

EDIT: I completetly realise this is not Chesko's fault. I suppose that is the point here, being bullied like he has been. It really feels like their is a fight for our survival... or maybe relevance. I am not a social media buff but I have been glued to a chat room the past two days.

I can conceed that he is an older member who contributes a great deal more than I, but I really hope that Nexus stays a part of the picture and you're now being someone of such influence, maybe that can make a difference for us "little folk" Edited April 27, 2015 by sunshinenbrick

[WightMage]

In response to post #24688489. #24688904, #24690914, #24691034, #24691269, #24691774, #24698794, #24698939, #24698984, #24699959, #24700204, #24700614 are all replies on the same post.

Fowldragon wrote:

sunshinenbrick wrote: The compensation will be going to (mostly) the wrong people. What Pay Mods will do is give the wrong incentive for future modders... modders who do not know and are not part of the long history of game devlopment and pushing the boundaries. If it all goes pear shaped it will bite Valvesda in the ass.

Shame is it will also hurt the "ethical" gamers out there. That being said there will always be new games and new platforms.

Fowldragon wrote: How can it go to the wrong people?

I have no clue how compensation works, but I bet it will be "GAMED"..say, a mod is compensated on the basis of FAVES and SUBs...I know of multiple mods that have major support but never amounted to much or even got finished...One I know of had 500+ faves and 1500 subscriptions. It was to become a new world in the spirit of another FALSKAAR..it was on STEAM's hot list and yet it never grew more than .123Mbytes. It was suggested that the whole thing was a scam to see how many people would endorse a project that was NEVER intended to be Started...much less finished.

Even if it worked one time, it won't work again.."Fool me once, shame on you.Fool me twice, shame on me.". OTOH, not everyone's first try is a success. I imagine some of my favorite modders made a right mess of it their first time out.

STEAM recently added BLENDER to its modding tools. It reminded me of a History lesson ... the people who made the MOST MONEY during the 1849 California gold rush...were the people selling tools and supplies.

Lateraliss wrote: Fun fact. Did you know that the Bible isn't referencing the eye of a needle of a sewing needle? There was a gate in Jerusalem called The Eye of the Needle. It was too small for a camel and its baggage to get through, so the people would have to first take all the baggage off the camel and the camel would have to basically crawl through.

It's a good metaphor, as the camel would have to remove all its possessions before passing through the gate.

sunshinenbrick wrote: By "wrong people" I mean if someone free loads off other people's hard work and then goes to make loads of money selling it to unsuspecting people.

EDIT: Just to clarify that this is not implying everyone, but the way they seem to have set it up now appears to offer very little protection from abuse. I guess they figure that bad apples will be weeded out over time... in the meantime however.

I really think modders should see the real value of what they do and demand better conditions. Hey, a modders strike??

diyeath wrote: Principal and conviction are only luxuries when you surround yourself with an environment that's counter intuitive to those concepts.

Fowldragon wrote: @lateraliss..That IS a fun fact!! I honestly thought it was literally a needle.

@sunshinenbrick...Money always changes the game...and it always attracts the people who want to get something for nothing...but the net is a collective that has innumerable sets of eyes. My Best friends Mom used to always say, " What is concocted in the Dark, will always be revealed in the light of Day.
My greatest fear, is not of the few Toads that will MUCK it up...Rather, it will be the Stroti's Tamiras, Elianoras and literally Everyone who has ever given their work away for nothing more than the courtesy of being attributed for their work... who are forced to revoke that GOOD WILL

@diyeath People have to pay bills, a man/woman of Good Character and Conscience is no exception. I won't debate this. Life is full of examples of ordinary people who dealing with extraordinary circumstances make difficult but pragmatic decisions...Not every fight.

Fowldragon wrote: srry, "Not every fight, is the "GOOD FIGHT"

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ diyeath

Man, that is deep... That's got me thinking every which way! Love it :D

tonycubed2 wrote: That bible quote is used in the wrong context here. The Bible has no issues with a person being rich. King Solomon was filthy rich and it was a gift from God. Allowing gives to bring their pagan idols did him in, not wealth.

What the verse means is that we are not to replace God with money. We are not to make money into an idol. This applies to anything else as well. Anything can be made into an idol if we are not careful. Including poverty.

Fowldragon wrote: @ tonycubed2

I always knew it wasn't referring to wealth..otherwise Christians would condemn Mega Churches...Pastors like Benny Hinn, Peter Popov, Mike Murdock and Pastor DOLLAR...or the ENTIRE Roman Catholic Church Hierarchy.

tonycubed2 wrote: Oh theres tons of pastors going to hell. The devil loves nothing more than convincing a person he is following God when in reality he is not. And then there are the bad apples fleecing the flock. But like in every other field or endeavor there are real God fearing true pastors as well as charlatans.

I didn't know that- and actually, the metaphor is much improved by that explanation. Thanks.