Steam Service Providers, and some how needing to clarify the Nexus stance again

[UberSmaug]

In response to post #24736679. #24737664, #24747479, #24750714, #24755589, #24772654, #24776964 are all replies on the same post.

UberSmaug wrote:

MrJoseCuervo wrote: If your work is worthy people will donate. If that's not good enough for you take up needle point.

Crashloop wrote: @MrJoseCuervo
In theory you are spot on, however theory doesn't match reality.. If I put up a ad saying I will take pictures for you, you donate money if you like my work and want to donate. How many would you think actually donated? As a hobby photographer I cannot and will not work for free unless it's benefits me. Majority of people want stuff for free it's that simple.

bungdorji wrote: I definetely agree, if your work has a best result, people will donate willingly, but if not im sure they wont

dpgillam wrote: A) craft fair people are selling a finished, stable, working product. Not a beta, not a "maybe" not a "well it works on MY computer" line of Bull. You want me to pay you for something that has a significant chance of not working. In the US (and most the civilized world) its illegal to sell defective goods knowingly, and anything based on skyrim's bugged up system is defective, by default.

B) Im paying you? Then I expect to get what I pay for. The mod had better look EXACTLY like the pictures (false advertising is a crime) I have the right to tech support (Federal lemon laws) For as long as the game is maintained you must keep your mod up to date. And, as poor Chesko found out, you have no control over your mod. Its not "ebul compnies" as you suggest, its simple business, and the fact that the average person is clueless enough to think the world works like they see on tv. :roll:

C) Craft fair people dont steal each other's "IP"? Ever notice how much nearly-identical garbage is strewn across the tables? We have thousands of magazines per hobby telling you how to make the junk that the flea marketers are selling. For there to be a fair comparison to modding, you would have to publish a magazine monthly with all the code for the best mods as freeware, deny the concept of IP ever existing, and THEN try to sell your art. You have a fantasy notion of craft fairs. a few people are as warm and fuzzy as your delusion. Most are just noral. And then there are the financially motivated. In all, you'll find the same attitudes and temperments as you find here.

x9fallen wrote: I don't believe there is a corporation running the craft fairs and taking 75%. As someone who has donated getting close to $1k to various modders/content makers, that was my biggest complaint about the system.

Do I want to financially support modders when I can? Damn right. Do I want to give 75% of that money to Valve and Bethesda? Hell no.

UberSmaug wrote: Absolutely there is an organizer. And there is a vendor fee which is divided between that organizer and the venue where the event is held, be it a Church parking lot or a convention center. The amount of that fee varies greatly. In this case it is a flat fee, for mods it would be a percentage of total sales My question is not is the split fair or not. (Please read the Forbs piece and Bethesda blog concerning that if you have not already. Those numbers were not set in stone.)

I agree. IF you pay for something it should be of good quality. If you are selling something you should stand by it and provide support for your customers. False advertising is a crime, lemon laws and all that are good. I still support all of my free mods and will continue to do so. I've never said otherwise.

I was only trying to bring light to the fact that being a hobbyist should not exclude you from seeking profit for the things you produce. Its done everyday all across the world. If all mods are as broken as you imply why would you want them even if they are free. If skyrim is so bugged that all mods are junk why are you playing it at all.

Your last comment proves my point even more. Even with money involved people are still willing to share ideas, assist their fellow hobbyist, share assetss, make tutorials, look at each others work and say "awe man that's good but I bet I can improve on that." Some people sell kits for others to assemble and in turn sell again. Those financially motivated are sitting right next to those who are not. Yet the system still functions. Its not a fantasy, I may be hamming up the love and good will stuff a bit. That much warm and fuzzy makes me a little sick. But I'll settle for just moral.

I Ask again. How is modding any different? Why is ok for these people to sell their wares and we can not? Edited April 29, 2015 by UberSmaug

[Zennethe]

In response to post #24731409. #24731549, #24731554, #24731689, #24732049, #24732184, #24732424 are all replies on the same post.

Nightasy wrote:

MrJoseCuervo wrote: So you think you should be paid because you had to learn stuff? You find your hobby tedious? Perhaps you should find a new hobby.

digitaltrucker wrote: A is your privelege. I respect it, even though I disagree. I wish you the best and look forward to your return.

Cheers, friend!

falcor23 wrote: Sad to see you go, but this was bound to happen. Modders are going to leave because of this and the amount of attention this has gotten will bring more modders in. This has been a clusterf*#@ at best and will leave this community shattered for along time coming.

Best of luck in your future endeavors.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think one of the major issues surrounding all this was the way it was implemented. How about a mature thought out inquiry and discussion between developers, modders, contributors and users/testers would have possibly avoided this whole sham.

It is because of how this was done that my respect for Beth and Valve has been damaged and it is only with time and future experiences that this may improve.

Let us not forget that Nexus supports all games now. There will always be new developers.

popopipo wrote: I think the titles "Give me Money for No Reason" and "Pay me for doing nothing" were aimed at Valve and Bethesda, not at modders in general.

But yes, you have people who don't understand at all what modding is about, who just behave like consumers in the worst way. They were very loud during the shitstorm. They are the same people who complain a lot on the comment section.

I do believe this paying mod thing was a very bad idea, but I do show respect to all the time modders spent working to improve the game.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: A better option would be that people who donate get the latest updates first. This would encourage donations as well as encourage innovation by the modders. Greed is the only true evil in this world.

So basically, a patreon-based model.

[WarMaster09]

In response to post #24731234. #24739424 is also a reply to the same post.

nivea wrote:

meredithmiles wrote: Fallout folks pitched in here, it's only right for ES folks to support them too.

Actually they have already said something along the lines.
Skyrim modding is old community set in ways we shouldnt have shaken their system,
Perhaps we can try it again on a newer platform.

[x9fallen]

In response to post #24736679. #24737664, #24747479, #24750714, #24755589, #24757064 are all replies on the same post.

UberSmaug wrote:

MrJoseCuervo wrote: If your work is worthy people will donate. If that's not good enough for you take up needle point.

Crashloop wrote: @MrJoseCuervo
In theory you are spot on, however theory doesn't match reality.. If I put up a ad saying I will take pictures for you, you donate money if you like my work and want to donate. How many would you think actually donated? As a hobby photographer I cannot and will not work for free unless it's benefits me. Majority of people want stuff for free it's that simple.

bungdorji wrote: I definetely agree, if your work has a best result, people will donate willingly, but if not im sure they wont

dpgillam wrote: A) craft fair people are selling a finished, stable, working product. Not a beta, not a "maybe" not a "well it works on MY computer" line of Bull. You want me to pay you for something that has a significant chance of not working. In the US (and most the civilized world) its illegal to sell defective goods knowingly, and anything based on skyrim's bugged up system is defective, by default.

B) Im paying you? Then I expect to get what I pay for. The mod had better look EXACTLY like the pictures (false advertising is a crime) I have the right to tech support (Federal lemon laws) For as long as the game is maintained you must keep your mod up to date. And, as poor Chesko found out, you have no control over your mod. Its not "ebul compnies" as you suggest, its simple business, and the fact that the average person is clueless enough to think the world works like they see on tv. :roll:

C) Craft fair people dont steal each other's "IP"? Ever notice how much nearly-identical garbage is strewn across the tables? We have thousands of magazines per hobby telling you how to make the junk that the flea marketers are selling. For there to be a fair comparison to modding, you would have to publish a magazine monthly with all the code for the best mods as freeware, deny the concept of IP ever existing, and THEN try to sell your art. You have a fantasy notion of craft fairs. a few people are as warm and fuzzy as your delusion. Most are just noral. And then there are the financially motivated. In all, you'll find the same attitudes and temperments as you find here.

UberSmaug wrote: I agree. IF you pay for something it should be of good quality. If you are selling something you should stand by it and provide support for your customers. False advertising is a crime, lemon laws and all that are good. I still support all of my free mods and will continue to do so and I've never said otherwise.

I was only trying to bring light to the fact that being a hobbyist should not exclude you from seeking profit for the things you produce. Its done everyday all across the world. If all mods are as broken as you imply why would you want them even if they are free. If skyrim is so bugged that all mods are junk why are you playing it at all.

Your last comment proves my point even more. Even with money involved people are still willing to share ideas assist their fellow hobbyist. Make tutorials, look at each others work and say awe man that's good but I bet I can improve on that. Some people sell kits for others to assemble and in turn sell again. Those finically motivated are sitting right next to those who are not. Yet the system still functions. I Ask again how is modding any different. Why is ok for these people to sell their wares and we can not.

I don't believe there is a corporation running the craft fairs and taking 75%. As someone who has donated getting close to $1k to various modders/content makers, that was my biggest complaint about the system.

Do I want to financially support modders when I can? Damn right. Do I want to give 75% of that money to Valve and Bethesda? Hell no.

[UberSmaug]

In response to post #24736679. #24737664, #24747479, #24750714, #24755589, #24757064, #24772654, #24818569, #24842684, #24874109 are all replies on the same post.

UberSmaug wrote: So there is this thing called a "Craft Fair". Craziest thing. It this place where hobbyest go to sell their little do-dads, and funny little needle point kitty cat tissue box covers, And woodcrafts, and WORKS OF FRIGGIN ART!!!!!!!! They don't steal from each other's tables when the other person is not looking... Well some probably do but that's because some people are jerks, And want to take things because they somehow justify to themselves that they are entitled everything they see simply because.... they want it. Yeah some people are going to try to abuse the system. Just like somebody will try to abuse every system. Is that really a reason not to give this a try? It will not be perfect right away. And probably will never be "perfect". Nothing is. We will just have to respect each other and be honest in our actions. Those who betray that trust will be outed if we watch each others backs.

Why is modding any different from Wood Working Jewelry Making, Painting, Sculpture, Drawing, Music, Knitting, and countless other, hobbies for some, but for others they are more. For those willing to put in the hard work and dedication, make things of a professional quality, it can become a job. Maybe not your primary source of income but a nice secondary bump. Who cares if its not going to make you rich. You had fun while you were doing it right. This is not about being greedy.

All these posts about evil gaming companies trying to scam people and rip you off is the highest form of disrespect. If you cant understand that it makes me sad. If not for Bethesda and Valve and Nexus and all the others there would be no mods, let alone a game to play at all. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. If you think for one second the developers at these companies don't love games as much as you do than we are lost. That kind of thinking, not the money, will eat away at this community and the entire gaming industry.

Pro Paid mods. Is not Anti Free mods. Free mods should not go away. There are plenty of mods that just wont be able to jive with the paid model and they should not be eliminated. New modders need a place to get their feet wet. We need a place to get feedback on works in progress. If your mod doesn't make it to the market place you should have to option to releases for free. Trying to ban free modding would be a huge mistake. And IF that happens I guaranty you will see a modder strike

Why shouldn't we be able to sell our Art like any other Artist? People at these craft fairs all have a really good time and are supper nice to each other. They share ideas, help each other out, collaborate on projects. Teach each other techniques. Form lifelong friendships. FALL IN LOVE. Because they share a common interest. That is a Community. And the best kind of community where race, sexual orientation, religion, and nationality don't matter anymore. Because for once were not concentrating on what makes us different but what make us the same.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: If your work is worthy people will donate. If that's not good enough for you take up needle point.

Crashloop wrote: @MrJoseCuervo
In theory you are spot on, however theory doesn't match reality.. If I put up a ad saying I will take pictures for you, you donate money if you like my work and want to donate. How many would you think actually donated? As a hobby photographer I cannot and will not work for free unless it's benefits me. Majority of people want stuff for free it's that simple.

bungdorji wrote: I definetely agree, if your work has a best result, people will donate willingly, but if not im sure they wont

dpgillam wrote: A) craft fair people are selling a finished, stable, working product. Not a beta, not a "maybe" not a "well it works on MY computer" line of Bull. You want me to pay you for something that has a significant chance of not working. In the US (and most the civilized world) its illegal to sell defective goods knowingly, and anything based on skyrim's bugged up system is defective, by default.

B) Im paying you? Then I expect to get what I pay for. The mod had better look EXACTLY like the pictures (false advertising is a crime) I have the right to tech support (Federal lemon laws) For as long as the game is maintained you must keep your mod up to date. And, as poor Chesko found out, you have no control over your mod. Its not "ebul compnies" as you suggest, its simple business, and the fact that the average person is clueless enough to think the world works like they see on tv. :roll:

C) Craft fair people dont steal each other's "IP"? Ever notice how much nearly-identical garbage is strewn across the tables? We have thousands of magazines per hobby telling you how to make the junk that the flea marketers are selling. For there to be a fair comparison to modding, you would have to publish a magazine monthly with all the code for the best mods as freeware, deny the concept of IP ever existing, and THEN try to sell your art. You have a fantasy notion of craft fairs. a few people are as warm and fuzzy as your delusion. Most are just noral. And then there are the financially motivated. In all, you'll find the same attitudes and temperments as you find here.

UberSmaug wrote: I agree. IF you pay for something it should be of good quality. If you are selling something you should stand by it and provide support for your customers. False advertising is a crime, lemon laws and all that are good. I still support all of my free mods and will continue to do so. I've never said otherwise.

I was only trying to bring light to the fact that being a hobbyist should not exclude you from seeking profit for the things you produce. Its done everyday all across the world. If all mods are as broken as you imply why would you want them even if they are free. If skyrim is so bugged that all mods are junk why are you playing it at all.

Your last comment proves my point even more. Even with money involved people are still willing to share ideas, assist their fellow hobbyist, share assetss, make tutorials, look at each others work and say "awe man that's good but I bet I can improve on that." Some people sell kits for others to assemble and in turn sell again. Those financially motivated are sitting right next to those who are not. Yet the system still functions. Its not a fantasy, I may be hamming up the love and good will stuff a bit. That much warm and fuzzy makes me a little sick. But I'll settle for just moral.

I Ask again. How is modding any different? Why is ok for these people to sell their wares and we can not?

x9fallen wrote: I don't believe there is a corporation running the craft fairs and taking 75%. As someone who has donated getting close to $1k to various modders/content makers, that was my biggest complaint about the system.

Do I want to financially support modders when I can? Damn right. Do I want to give 75% of that money to Valve and Bethesda? Hell no.

singlebelong wrote: @MrJoseCuervo
This "If your work is worthy people will donate" thought is really hurts, like after all the hard work I made a bunch of worthless junky mods.

========================

I'm so disappointed about this fiasco, maybe this is why my friends told me "modding is fool around. It is a hobby and it can only be a hobby. You cant build a career you cant earn a decent life, you cannot even make a living! Come and get a job you damn fool, we can use a 3D model artist!"

They are right, I'm wrong. Maybe now is the time to make things right.

This is not a victory, everybody is lose.

Tyerial12 wrote: you went into that wanting to make money..

people made mods before money was even thought of for free..

Soon as money gets involved most all good mods go to pay to have and then full of junk crap mods aswell.

Leaving the free community with jack crap and they say it wont kill the free community ha! sooner or later people will get tired of the crap mods being made for free because the good modders are filling there pockets with green.

Money corrupted this community.. i just hope it can recover

and before i get flamed.. i do support mod authors getting donations and not forcing us to buy a it may work mod sorry but my opinion

lesliewifeofbath wrote: I totally agree with you. This site kicked off a pretty terrific mod some time ago for some pretty stupid reasons, even after the developer tried to make things right.

Methinks Dark One protests too much.

Absolutely there is an organizer. And there is a vendor fee which is divided between that organizer and the venue where the event is held, be it a Church parking lot or a convention center. The amount of that fee varies greatly. In this case it is a flat fee, for mods it would be a percentage of total sales My question is not is the split fair or not. (Please read the Forbs piece and Bethesda blog concerning that if you have not already. Those numbers were not set in stone.)

After reading the Forbs and Bethesda blog I feel the absolute best split we could hope to see would be 30% valve standard digital distribution fee, 35% Bethesda 35% to the Modder. More realistically 40% Bethesda 30% Modder. Maybe service provider 5% is volunteered from the modders share. Mod authors would always be getting less than half but still potentially more than a studio developer (counting in heath care and yada, yada, yada, evens that out a bit). and I am personally ok with that. To those who say they would pay for mods but this first offer is unfair. Would a 5%-10% increase to the modders + modders donate to service providers be enough to change your mind? Edited May 2, 2015 by UberSmaug

[ladycygna]

In response to post #24731234. #24739424, #24769764 are all replies on the same post.

nivea wrote:

meredithmiles wrote: Fallout folks pitched in here, it's only right for ES folks to support them too.

WarMaster09 wrote: Actually they have already said something along the lines.
Skyrim modding is old community set in ways we shouldnt have shaken their system,
Perhaps we can try it again on a newer platform.

I don't see it being a too bad idea. For me the paid modding system was an awful idea for skyrim because of things like SkyUI becoming commercial. But if the system allows commercial mods from the start, all the community will learn to make mods dependent only on other free mods and avoid dependences from the commercial ones. I still don't like that, but if done well it can be just an alternate community instead of an armageddon. It works pretty well for other games like Flight Simulator.

For Flight Simulator you have several well known distributors of commercial planes with high quality, and hundreds of free versions of the same planes, maybe not that detailed or with a generic cockpit. Or maybe you need to look for the cockpit as a separate mod. It's similar for terrain mods. And both things coexist pretty well.

[gorky45]

Fallout 4 will most likely be micro transactions for everything. Edited April 29, 2015 by gorky45

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24731234. #24739424, #24769764, #24777074 are all replies on the same post.

nivea wrote:

meredithmiles wrote: Fallout folks pitched in here, it's only right for ES folks to support them too.

WarMaster09 wrote: Actually they have already said something along the lines.
Skyrim modding is old community set in ways we shouldnt have shaken their system,
Perhaps we can try it again on a newer platform.

ladycygna wrote: I don't see it being a too bad idea. For me the paid modding system was an awful idea for skyrim because of things like SkyUI becoming commercial. But if the system allows commercial mods from the start, all the community will learn to make mods dependent only on other free mods and avoid dependences from the commercial ones. I still don't like that, but if done well it can be just an alternate community instead of an armageddon. It works pretty well for other games like Flight Simulator.

For Flight Simulator you have several well known distributors of commercial planes with high quality, and hundreds of free versions of the same planes, maybe not that detailed or with a generic cockpit. Or maybe you need to look for the cockpit as a separate mod. It's similar for terrain mods. And both things coexist pretty well.

I think depends too on what kind of state the game is in when released. Don't want to have to spend money on fixing Betheda's sometimes lazy programming and inherent memory leaks!

[Tyerial12]

In response to post #24731409. #24731549, #24731554, #24731689, #24732049, #24732184, #24732424, #24765784 are all replies on the same post.

Nightasy wrote:

MrJoseCuervo wrote: So you think you should be paid because you had to learn stuff? You find your hobby tedious? Perhaps you should find a new hobby.

digitaltrucker wrote: A is your privelege. I respect it, even though I disagree. I wish you the best and look forward to your return.

Cheers, friend!

falcor23 wrote: Sad to see you go, but this was bound to happen. Modders are going to leave because of this and the amount of attention this has gotten will bring more modders in. This has been a clusterf*#@ at best and will leave this community shattered for along time coming.

Best of luck in your future endeavors.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think one of the major issues surrounding all this was the way it was implemented. How about a mature thought out inquiry and discussion between developers, modders, contributors and users/testers would have possibly avoided this whole sham.

It is because of how this was done that my respect for Beth and Valve has been damaged and it is only with time and future experiences that this may improve.

Let us not forget that Nexus supports all games now. There will always be new developers.

popopipo wrote: I think the titles "Give me Money for No Reason" and "Pay me for doing nothing" were aimed at Valve and Bethesda, not at modders in general.

But yes, you have people who don't understand at all what modding is about, who just behave like consumers in the worst way. They were very loud during the shitstorm. They are the same people who complain a lot on the comment section.

I do believe this paying mod thing was a very bad idea, but I do show respect to all the time modders spent working to improve the game.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: A better option would be that people who donate get the latest updates first. This would encourage donations as well as encourage innovation by the modders. Greed is the only true evil in this world.

Zennethe wrote: So basically, a patreon-based model.

Problem is all the good mods would be Pay to Use them leaving the free community with junk (not saying all mod authors will) then some will uploadfree mods sure but leave a spam box saying like my Mod Buy the full verison (insert link here) now making it a spam mod.

So as im saying the Free community of mods would die out because no one wants crap quailty mods or mods that get uploaded then abandoned.

I do support mod authors with a DONATE BUTTON but force me to pay for a mod that i can not test for more than 24 hrs hell no

Sometimes it takes awhile to find out the mods broken right were it should shine. Edited April 29, 2015 by Tyerial12

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24731409. #24731549, #24731554, #24731689, #24732049, #24732184, #24732424, #24765784, #24779599 are all replies on the same post.

Nightasy wrote:

MrJoseCuervo wrote: So you think you should be paid because you had to learn stuff? You find your hobby tedious? Perhaps you should find a new hobby.

digitaltrucker wrote: A is your privelege. I respect it, even though I disagree. I wish you the best and look forward to your return.

Cheers, friend!

falcor23 wrote: Sad to see you go, but this was bound to happen. Modders are going to leave because of this and the amount of attention this has gotten will bring more modders in. This has been a clusterf*#@ at best and will leave this community shattered for along time coming.

Best of luck in your future endeavors.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think one of the major issues surrounding all this was the way it was implemented. How about a mature thought out inquiry and discussion between developers, modders, contributors and users/testers would have possibly avoided this whole sham.

It is because of how this was done that my respect for Beth and Valve has been damaged and it is only with time and future experiences that this may improve.

Let us not forget that Nexus supports all games now. There will always be new developers.

popopipo wrote: I think the titles "Give me Money for No Reason" and "Pay me for doing nothing" were aimed at Valve and Bethesda, not at modders in general.

But yes, you have people who don't understand at all what modding is about, who just behave like consumers in the worst way. They were very loud during the shitstorm. They are the same people who complain a lot on the comment section.

I do believe this paying mod thing was a very bad idea, but I do show respect to all the time modders spent working to improve the game.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: A better option would be that people who donate get the latest updates first. This would encourage donations as well as encourage innovation by the modders. Greed is the only true evil in this world.

Zennethe wrote: So basically, a patreon-based model.

Tyerial12 wrote: Problem is all the good mods would be Pay to Use them leaving the free community with junk (not saying all mod authors will) then some will uploadfree mods sure but leave a spam box saying like my Mod Buy the full verison (insert link here) now making it a spam mod.

So as im saying the Free community of mods would die out because no one wants crap quailty mods or mods that get uploaded then abandoned.

I do support mod authors with a DONATE BUTTON but force me to pay for a mod that i can not test for more than 24 hrs hell no

Sometimes it takes awhile to find out the mods broken right were it should shine.

Some mods can destroy and corrupt save games too, unintentionally. I remember Imaginator, didn't find that one out for months then BAM! Save bloat and no more save game for you!

EDIT: Its fixed now btw and is an awesome mod. Edited April 29, 2015 by sunshinenbrick