Steam Service Providers, and some how needing to clarify the Nexus stance again

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24637444. #24637704, #24638489, #24647534, #24647779, #24647944, #24648914 are all replies on the same post.

Milleuros wrote:

Dark0ne wrote: I completely respect and understand your point of view. For me, it's about the gesture of thanks and support the mod author wants to make to the Nexus. We all rationalise these things in different ways to ourselves, to make it seem bad or make it seem OK. I've rationalised it so that I'm OK with it, and I wanted to share that rationale with all of you.

Kentsui wrote: That first paragraph (from Milleuros) is actually a good way of explaining how I feel about this.

While it not being a secret, I feel coming forward about it in your first post about the paid Workshop opening would certainly have done more good than bad.

Considering how things turned-out between Chesko and Valve they certainly need to make some changes FAST or it'll continue to be a mess for everyone.

That 25/75 split is outrageous though and modders really REALLY should think about it twice.

locomotive1236 wrote: I don't believe in the statement black vs white only. There's always a grey area. It is easy in retrospect to look at a situation and say "You should have done this and I would have done that." That's not how real life works. There are no choices you make that do not have consequences. He made his choices based on what information he has available at the time. The justification he made in this blog justifies his thinking in the benefit of the mod users more than anything. It's not like he's earning money and spend it on himself. He's using the revenue to fund the site for users to download mods for free.

Call me a realist, but the real world cost money and you cannot live by principles alone.

PharCry wrote: Dark0ne, always supporting and get where you're coming from with the scale of a web site.

loco, nothing's ever B&W, it's better to not generalize with statements like that and just take in what there is to offer and decide on it from there (as opposed to, "this is good", "this is bad", "this is grey-ish"). Not bashing, just something a lot fall into. Not only that, it seems pretty obvious *most* protesters are just whining about having to potentially pay for mods, should the creator decide to go that route. I don't think any of us can do anything more than react to this when changes are made, and make a wave if things do start to go sideways. The idea is good, the practice needs a bit of work though, eh?

sunshinenbrick wrote: Please watch a couple of documentaries on the financial crash and see if you still have the stance that money makes the world go round.

locomotive1236 wrote: @pharcry, I think you might have misunderstood my post. All I meant to say is that everything is a grey area and we cannot judge people based on one side of the argument alone. Whatever the mod authors decide to do ultimately is up on them and that Dark0ne did as he believes is the right way to do.
@sunshineandbrick, Are you referring to my statement about money in the real world? I fail to see how market crashing has anything to do with needing money to live or run the server?

My point about the financial crash is that it was caused by false inflation of value. That is people are paying more but end up getting less. This is the inherent flaw in how money now works. The problem is that, as much as I realise that money is anow a necessity, it appears to be the primary way in which people attach value to things. It because of THAT reason that communities like this one are so important as to not contract them down to their monetary value. Edited April 25, 2015 by sunshinenbrick

[azraal]

What I'm afraid of and will probably lead me not to buy any (emphasis on probably) is that I don't trust modders to have the time, resources and the will to back any paid content. I don't expect the same level of service from a commercial service and for a free service.

 

I recently heard about modders complaining about users that felt that support was due them. And I empathized with them, I still do, as long as it's free.

But as long as I pay for a service, and I'm not speaking of donations, the later are to thank the modder for what was done, the other is to buy an actual thing.

 

I had a problem with a mod, and I still do... I signaled the bug and said that the author might want to look into it... (I didn't demand a solution, or something) And was almost insulted by the author:

The mod was working on his particular machine, so he didn't have to care of anything else.

And I let go... Because in the end it was free content, someone just offering time and that nothing was due to me. But If I paid, I would have demanded for support or at least a lead to make it work.

 

This is an extreme example, but It's real.

That's what I expect from paid mods : Content packaged as a professional feature, with a service that doesn't follow.

 

You could argue that professional companies are also doing the same (I should now, i'm a support technician in a software company), but it doesn't make it right or justified.

 

For now I too will wait and see and although I'm leaning toward the "against paid mods" clan, I'm still not sure about my opinion.

So modders, I sincerely hope you'll make me lie.

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24643354. #24643854, #24643949, #24644484, #24645019, #24645409, #24645524, #24646134, #24646729, #24646959, #24648599 are all replies on the same post.

joz23 wrote:

Qrygg wrote: First of all, no one is forcing you to buy mods, they are a 100% optional part of PC gaming.

Second of all, Nexus is not "in bed" with Valve and Bethesda. Nexus happens to be the largest or one of the largest mod repositories for TESV: Skyrim, and it would be foolish to not have relations with Bethesda, who created the game, and Valve, who distribute the game. If Bethesda got pissed at Nexus, they could issue a Cease and Desist letter for using trademarked/copyrighted material. They support the modding community because, frankly, it means better reviews and more playing of their games on the PC platform; and they don't have to pay a dime of it.

If anything I choose to view the cut from Valve as a thumb-in-cheek move: "Valve is allowing modders to charge money for their mods? Well let's take a piece of the pie, no need for Valve to grow rich off modders hard work!"

PharCry wrote: Qrygg is right, no one is forcing you to download and install content that is not included with the game itself.

But the cut Valve is asking, is a bit absurd... 75% for something they never even touched as far as the game goes? That seems a bit shady IMO...

sh0d4n wrote:

First of all, no one is forcing you to buy mods, they are a 100% optional part of PC gaming.

100% optional FREE part of PC gaming.. Until yesterday.

Second of all, Nexus is not "in bed" with Valve and Bethesda. Nexus happens to be the largest or one of the largest mod repositories for TESV: Skyrim, and it would be foolish to not have relations with Bethesda, who created the game, and Valve, who distribute the game. If Bethesda got pissed at Nexus, they could issue a Cease and Desist letter for using trademarked/copyrighted material. They support the modding community because, frankly, it means better reviews and more playing of their games on the PC platform; and they don't have to pay a dime of it.

So its better to sponge as the community slowly dies?

We are talking a slow death here. May as well take what I can as the ship goes down?

I honestly dont know what to believe. All I know for sure is that this is not good for the modding freedom we have all come love. I dont understand why so many are blind to where it is clearly going to end up. Its like they resigned themselve to the fact that its going to happen no matter what, so the'll just position themselves to benefit from it while they can.

People really are selfish. They are only thinking about the now, not the future generations of modders.

sunshinenbrick wrote: The truth in this is painful to read. Look what Apple did to Linux. Fight the good fight people!

Paragon777 wrote: He's not wrong..
Its not about just complaining or being as simple as "not having to buy" hes talking the truth about how it's heading and what it means. He is simply saying the natural cause and effect of things that WILL 100% happen unless this is reversed.
Its just business and statistics. It will dmg modding.
Sure it will still be around; because it was always a tight nit community however that's IF they don't find a way to eliminate non sanctioned modding as it could be made non sanctioned modding under this coarse in order to protect themselves with this model.
This entire model can be used as a way to profit off modders and at the same time turn all non financial generating contributions to be labeled as some form of piracy..
Since the Publisher is not getting their chunk and or it distracts from their sales.. Do you understand for example a nexus mod could conflict with a well known steam sold mod this would cause conflict that would require actions.
He came up with a valid point; in order to control quality and content because this has opened a mass tear in space of potential lawsuits they will force it to be workshop bound. Let alone by nature with current systems it encourages low quality and sloppy work or then the fact that mods in general brake your game unless you're a master at it lol. Let alone no possible way to even CHECK the quality of a mod yet your still charging for it?
IF MORE control was given to modders via better software tools this could be lessened. OR if Beth took the mods in then looked over them and made sure they worked; by then releasing their own version then giving you your cut.
Its 101 stuff.
Its great to be hopeful and all but this is the agenda. Its was not Val/Beth saying boy gee wiz lets give back to our community... Matter of fact its more like well lets get this "blank" storm over with before the next games come in. This will net them double profits when it does.. Its about Profit...
This is nickle and dimming after a slew of a yr plus now of this kind of thing escalating by companies. At the same time it is literally almost like setting p a sweat shoo lol.

At the same time the current system encourages and rewards fast and sloppy work; it appeals to the get rich quick types; not the modders who work hard and should get something. Even then tech they are using them for cheap content that makes them hundreds and the modders nothing. Again Keep in mind this is LEADING to the next 2 games.
You will get 1000s of greedy people suddenly participating and the slander, he/she stole, used, etc will be impossible to ignore.
The patchiness of making such claims when in these cases people use the same resources; of which none belong to either in the first place is hilarious. But because your being paid this changes that all. Its contradicts to the publishers own stance and IS open to legality.
I mean my god Chesko already got hit day one by a claim; legit or not.. When the get rich YT/twitch wannabe desperadoes join in on this it going to be all hell braking lose. And if they don't start now they will for sure on next release.
At the same time we then have the current debacle going down right now..
SKYui is required for most modders that are new to even intermediate at this stage for MCM capability alone.
Now he has pulled out from nexus (well all future development.) A Core mod needed now for most mods.
At the same time lol even SKyui makes use of SKSE... So SKYui profiting off of not just mod users but modders should be forced to pay SKSE should they not. Im just using this as a small example; but this is the "blank"fest that will be coming.
And you know what who is to say that Beth should not have included their own caked in system like SKui has for modders. Because by not doing so and no controlling profit from both markets they are effectively able to nickle and dime people on a whole 'nother lvl!!!!!
Which is why I said if they are going through with this they are goign to have to give access to much better tools to the communities next time around.

Your not wrong either but you are not at all looking at the reality of the business model nor the effect it will have. The loopholes that will open over this kind of exchange BECAUSE of the BAD people will be so large that if they truly want to keep something functional up they will by nature be required to consolidate their set up; which means the end of nexus and the like.
(Unless of coarse they have something going on behind the scene; which imo is their own business and non of ours.) But you give to much credit to thinking they will just let things stand as is with the way things will go. They might scratch each others back; im not saying its not possible.
But again its the legalities that would by defacto lead to it having to be ended. .ie you cant have your cake and eat it too.
This then leads to a future of companies now getting their content from players at Sweatshop value while they company makes bank. And in order to keep order they would have to lock down any modding not going through official channels as a form of piracy.

Why do you play this down so simple as a god forbid they let modders add an ability to pay.
LOL its an agenda not a handout..

Yes I know English but im bad at it..

shadowslasher410 wrote: You... did read the entire thing right? even the part where it says this:

"I was not under an NDA, I was simply told "we haven’t announced this information publicly yet, so we appreciate you keeping this under wraps for now.". If you believe I should have outed them right there and then and completely destroyed my relationship with Valve and Bethesda then I think you're being naive."

Oh, and by the way, if you think Valve is the first to want to profit off of modders' blood, sweat and tears, you're sorely mistaken. If you Google ANY sufficiently popular mod, I can guarantee you that there's gonna be pirates selling what was supposed to be a FREE MOD for MONEY. And guess what? NONE of that money goes to the mod author, and there are more than a fair few number of morons who will buy it...

sunshinenbrick wrote: How about a model where jobs are offered to the best and most talented modders? Then really will see some inovation in the way companies interact with communities.

PharCry wrote: Modders. Choose. To. Ask. For. Payment.

"He's not wrong..
Its not about just complaining or being as simple as "not having to buy" hes talking the truth about how it's heading and what it means. He is simply saying the natural cause and effect of things that WILL 100% happen unless this is reversed."

And what will happen, "...100% unless this is reversed,"? Steam Workshop and the Nexus are not the only places that host mods, just the most dominant. Not only that, modders ASK FOR WHAT THEY WANT. If you don't want to pay, don't pay, not having a particular mod doesn't give your life less meaning or take away from your gaming experience as it was intended (the old instant gratification issue, which so many seem to feel they are entitled to have).

Hell, as I've said before, if you want something bad enough, go pick up some tutorials on Blender and NifSkope (both free pieces of software, by the way), learn how to use the Creation Kit, and make your own mod! Wow, what a concept! Maybe after you put 100+ hours into a project that you love and enjoy, you might consider releasing it to the Nexus or Steam Workshop, or maybe both, because you think it's fairly well polished. Then you get the messages about bugs, simple issues with textures because XYZ user didn't install it properly, or the download may have just been corrupt, or there was an unexpected conflict with an obscure mod, etc. Do you see where I'm going with this?

We as users, regulate what happens. If we don't want XYZ mod in question (i.e. don't deem it worthy of our money), we don't download it. The modder then either A) does nothing or maybe pulls it down, B) reduces the price or C) increases the quality. How is this so hard to follow? Am I missing something here? Because as far as I can tell I don't think I am...

sunshinenbrick wrote: The problem is that it will turn "free modders" into criminals.

Please see: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/esa-preserving-old-video-game-consoles-museums-tantamount-illegal-hacking-1495805

calfurius wrote: Comparing preserving retro games is far different then making free modifications. Comparing apples to oranges right there.

Also until they state that "free modding is illegal" that's when you can start raising the red flag. Until then your just doing the slippery slope fallacy.

You do realise that Skyrim could quite easily be considered a retro game already. Besides its about access to something you have given money in order to have access to.

EDIT: If you don't believe me try installing anything other than the latest version of a game on Steam. Edited April 25, 2015 by sunshinenbrick

[locomotive1236]

In response to post #24645764. #24646449, #24646594, #24646624, #24647849, #24648674 are all replies on the same post.

volfin wrote:

Azradun wrote: Before, no one had the motivation to scam people, now they will have one.

PharCry wrote: If no one wants to pay for the mod, they don't have to. What are you even talking about Azradun? And the 24 hour policy is there as well. I swear I'm done after this post unless I open my browser again...

sunshinenbrick wrote: Let us also not forget Skyrim was a bugged out mess of a game when it was released. Continuous digs for payment in order to have a finished game will be next.

rotwhip wrote: thats a pretty ignorant thing to say...

think about it, if it were a scam, nobody would buy it, so the "author" wouldn't even get any money....


even the first person who buys the crap mod will see that it is a crap mod, and return it, posting a comment saying that it is a scam mod, and nobody else will get it........


that's the whole point of the return feature.

Azradun wrote: I actually bought a mod today (Firelink Implements) and refunded it. You can check it in its comments if you don't believe me.

Cash doesn't go to you, but to your SteaM Vallet. And it takes some days to do so. I'm still waiting.

Also the mod was very small so I was able to test and debug all in about 15 minutes. I don't see it happening with large quest mods so much (for obvious reasons).

Also I'm a paying customer for a product now (especially since my cash is locked down at the moment). I think I *can* offer some criticism :P

@rotwhip, Do you really think the 24-hour return policy is reasonable? Do you really think someone with a full time job and a family can test a mod like falskaar in 24 hours? Keep in mind also that people that don't care for their reputations, i.e. mod thieves, can still make ton of money by selling an incomplete work. You will probably not notice something wrong until way down the road when it corrupts your save games. Ever heard of save bloating that occurs only after a while for certain mods? I need not mention those that had this problems but were eventually fixed. More importantly you do realize that the mod authors on steam can delete comments right? They can easily delete all the negative feedbacks and you wouldn't even realize it was broken until you had it.

And I'm not even gonna mention the compatibility nightmare if you have more than 50 mods installed.

[cniht]

I appreciate your clarity and follow up to this issue as I'd been wondering about it once 'outed' by the third party. Or more really information publicly available brought to the forefront. I do have one small thing to add, not so much a conspiracy theorist in me, but just a bit of jaded cynicism.

 

Corporations do not 'share' profit out of the goodness of their heart. What you and the other service providers were actually doing by signing agreements with them as optional revenue sharers was lending them cover against copyright claims (on the tools side) as well as gravitas where they could use your reputations as a shield (nexus being a provider). That's why they contacted you and especially the tool makers, it wasn't to 'give back'. Right now they are naturally in corporate turtle mode, but should the crap ever hit the fan don't be terribly surprised if they said "Hey, Nexus is in bed with me". Naturally your response kind of heads that off at the pass, so good for you at throwing up the first blockade. Judging by your post you're around your late twenties, I'd just say as one being a bit older and dealing with very complex legal contracts on a daily basis and the politics thereof. Be a little more skeptical about large corporations, especially those with near pseudo-monopolies, coming to you bearing gifts. Chesko has learned that lesson in a much more difficult fashion.

[Barbelos]

Whatever else one might think about Valve's paid mod experiment, giving part of their profits back to sites that support the modding community is a decent thing in all of this.

[Aahzmandias]

In response to post #24648364. #24648734 is also a reply to the same post.

mkess wrote:

WightMage wrote: We don't. Chesko and Griefmyst are a big boy and girl, respectfully- I think we should let them enjoy their time away from the modding scene for as long as they like.

Honestly, its for the best. Comments that Chesko and Griefmyst were making in the wake of this disaster on reddit were only hurting their reputation. It didn't help that they rudely found out that Valve now owns all of their assets, all of their work for the past few years.

That is a point I cannot stress out enough. If you get in bed with these big companies, consult a lawyer!

And change the paper you have to sign, as YOU see fit, even deleting paragraph's. And never ever give anyone exclusive distribution rights.

If you do that, it's irrevesible, your work is lost.

These has to be compensated. Simple calculate the hours, you worked for a mod, multiply them with 25-30$. That is the sum, they have to pay at least for that!

You have to pay taxes for that, Don't forget that!

They have to pay YOU for your time. With gving away your work, you have to be compensated for the lifetime you invested in it.

[seversky]

In response to post #24646984. #24647104, #24647439, #24647524, #24647569, #24647954, #24648029, #24648264, #24648309, #24648414, #24648504, #24648519, #24648809 are all replies on the same post.

Psijonica wrote:

SchwererGustav wrote: This post wwll be deleted in...3...2...1...

You will see ;)

bigdeano89 wrote: Way to sound like an entitled 12 year old man. Dark0ne has been honest from the start. Good luck trying to find another site btw, all the others are either gone or ALSO took the service provider option. That includes AFKmods etc.

Dark0ne is not the only site to do that, so stop making them out to be the bad guys. Nexus has been around for years giving mod authors FREE space for mods big and small.

Dark0ne wrote:

As you paint yourself as the saviour of the free modding community

This post wwll be deleted in...3...2...1...

Why would I delete it? It's a perfect example of the people who don't actually read what I write and, in the process, make themselves look stupid.

SchwererGustav wrote: Because 2 of my comments got delleted befor...

The 1st was a bit aggressive the 2nd not at all.

rotwhip wrote: ooooh someone is angry.

Psijonica wrote: I read what you wrote and I can only giggle that you have lowered yourself to calling me "stupid" LoL

You can fool all the kids here but anyone with real business and life experience sees right through you.

If I am stupid because I don't take your words at face value then so be it... I am a stupid person who drives a Super Snake and I am laughing at how stupid you may think I am.

Basically you are still supporting Pay-for-Mods just that you are calling it by a different name. Many modders like Emma (I guess you think she is stup[id too now eh? Remember her, yoiur old friend who helped you with your uploaded system all thiose years ago?) also believe that this is wrong in every aspect... but I guess we are just stupid.

I can't really tell youwhat I think of you because hey, I'm in an unfair possition where you are able to swing insults but I can't.

Congratulations! *Applause*

benissugger wrote: he said you "make yourself[es] look stupid", not "you are stupid".

JoeyLock wrote: So basically Psijonica, you're saying "Stop asking me for money! Dark0ne just pay the $500,000 to run this community per year and deal with it!" yes? Think about that statement, Endorsements, Permissions and Donations are the very things that keep this community and these mods afloat, if you want 100% free mods, make them all yourself and pay for the site to upload them on.

twhelan wrote: We must excuse those who cannot understand the context of a single sentence.

WightMage wrote: What does Emma, creator of Vilja, have anything to do with this?

Dark0ne wrote: You started with, in response to my article:

As you paint yourself as the saviour of the free modding community

I've already written:

If people are heralding me, specifically, as their champion in the fight against paid modding then they've done that of their own accord, and I certainly haven't agreed to be that champion....Does this sound like a champion of modding being free everywhere? No, it does not. Do not use me as the poster-child for that campaign as I never said I was.

So you either didn't read it, or you read it, and then decided to say I was painting myself as the "saviour of the free modding community" when I've specifically said I neither am or want to have that title. So yes, you look stupid. Even more so, now.

HadToRegister wrote:

Psijonica

Am I going to close all my account? No, not yet. But as soon as there is an alternative choice you can bet I will choose it.

I'm sure that threatening to close your FREE Nexus account that you pay NOTHING for, has most of the people at The Nexus quaking in their boots.

Psijonica, you are an incredibly spoiled little child. Go away please. Don't come back.

[keithapple]

What's done is done... but i heard a rumor that a new Skyrim (and updates for other Steam games) will lock down the game content to not allow external mods (mods that are not from Steam Workshop) to be installed... please tell me that this isn't true.

[locomotive1236]

In response to post #24645544. #24646089 is also a reply to the same post.

jmeks23 wrote:

PharCry wrote: "HOWEVER, I don't think that means compensation is deserved. Not to say you shouldn't be able to donate to these creators and what not, but I just don't feel like I should be forced to pay for any type of mod."

So they can't ask for money, for something they created, put their own hard work into? They absolutely must allow everyone to have it for free if they have shared it with the community? For something they've poured tens, hundreds or more hours into? Testing with other users, gathering feedback and data, troubleshooting, etc? All the while doing their day job and or whatever else they may have to contend with in regards to life?

"The thing about mods is you can have up to 200+ running at a time, and most people here probably play with somewhere between 25-100. Imagine even paying $.99 for 100 mods? And most mods I'm seeing on the workshop are charging more than $.99. Why would I ever do that?"

They're not making it a requirement to charge money for mods! Too many people are used to the idea of just having mods for free. This introduces a way that content creators can actually make a little money for what they are doing (hell maybe consider downloading Blender and NifSkope and the Creation Kit, learning how they work and making your own mods? WOW WHAT A CONCEPT). Why is this a bad thing?

I'm not saying it again after this: IMO Valve needs to reconsider how much they are taking as a cut from mod makers, but the mod makers do deserve some compensation IF THEY DEEM IT NECESSARY. We can pay for it if we like it (there is a 24 hour policy, probably should be 48 but again, something that needs dealt with on Valve's end, and something WE as a community can respond to). Stop crying about this, give input as it evolves, and stop acting like this only benefits Valve and Nexus!

Our of curiosity, do some of the tools used to make mods, such as blender, nifskope, photoshop, have a disclaimer saying that not to be used for commercial products? If you do you have to buy a licensed one for a prolonged period? I know most don't really care if you use it for personal stuff, but once it's out in the market they have rights to the products too?