Steam Service Providers, and some how needing to clarify the Nexus stance again

[d00rman]

In response to post #24663854. #24664244, #24664334, #24664879, #24665094, #24665224, #24665344, #24665379, #24665404 are all replies on the same post.

Ryker61 wrote:

WightMage wrote: Sauce?

Who filed it? Was it another modder?

Will we need to backup our versions of Wet & Cold before the take down notices appear here?

WightMage wrote: Oh my God: https://archive.is/ayjaw

Regardless of my personal feelings regarding Isoku, this really sucks.

Ryker61 wrote: I took a screen cap of his W&C SW page, but I have no way of posting it here. You'll have to go and check it for yourself.

The notification is at the top of the page. There's no indication as to the identity of the individual who filed the DMCA.

I highly doubt a DMCA will be filed here on the Nexus. My suspicion is that the DMCA was filed over recent paid mod fiasco.

DrGonzo31 wrote: I'm guessing it wasn't actually the mod author who uploaded that for sale, but some jagoff looking to make money off someone else's work. That's really my big fear here: what's to stop someone from taking someone else's mod and selling it on steam? Maybe because I don't use the Workshop there's a few pieces I'm missing, but that's what I see causing the whole thing to go pear shaped.

WightMage wrote: No dude, that was totally Isoku himself who uploaded Wet and Cold. The only problem is, like Chesko, he forgit that most of his work uses assets made by OTHER modders to begin with, for free.

More likely than not, one of them filed that DMCA.

Ryker61 wrote: While that sounds like a good theory, I'm a little skeptical as to whether or not that is the case. We'll have to wait and see.

The other side of it is that if that is the case, and someone fraudulently uploaded Isoku's mod, then why hasn't he come forward to let everyone know that this happened?

Edit: Wrightmage replied before I did.

digitaltrucker wrote: Of course, we have no way of knowing if the DMCA takedown notice is itself legitimate.

WightMage wrote: Isoku left the Nexus two days ago, when the paid mod scheme launched. He said as much in a goodbye post here in one of the mod comment sections- either Wet and Cold or iNeeds.

Didn't he say Wet & Cold 2.0 was rebuilt from the ground up? I think I also heard him saying it didn't utilize anyone's asset and all that, in the comments prior to the 23rd april. Thing is, he was contacted by Steam at least a month ahead of this whole ordeal, he probably knew people wouldn't let him use their assets, so he used all that time to rebuild the mod with that in mind.

[popcorn71]

In response to post #24665034.

digitaltrucker wrote:

You do understand that this was porbaly Bethesda and Valves intention from the start, right? Stir up enough anger in the the modding communitys 'old guard' and get enough of the talented modders who produce free mods to leave the modding scene in disgusted, and by definition you reduce the competition that the newer payed junk mods have to deal with. There for more mod sales.

From a tactical stand point it makes sense . Weather or not its a good idea from a over all strategic stand point is something else entirely.

[phantompally76]

In response to post #24663179. #24665119, #24665174, #24665184, #24665254, #24665529 are all replies on the same post.

digitaltrucker wrote:

DrGonzo31 wrote: Chesko? What happened there? o.O

WightMage wrote: He tried to pull all his mods from SW when the s#*! hit the fan... and was only then told by Valve's lawyer that they will not unless legally obligated to do so.

He was, by his own words, "beside myself with anger," because he felt that Arissa 2.0 was entirely his (and Griefmyst's) work.

Well, not anymore. And actually, this brings up another issue- if you upload a mod for sale on SW, and try to upload the exact same mod, same version and all, on Nexus, isn't that a clear Conflict of Interest? Furthermore, given how Valve legal responded to Chesko, it's highly likely that he will never be able to reupload Arissa 2.0 on Nexus or even his own website, since its no longer his property, if it ever was to begin with.

Let that be a warning to everyone who decides to deal with Valve/Bethesda: READ THE FINE PRINT.

digitaltrucker wrote:

explains it all.

lobo3222 wrote: lots...go to his site and read for yourself at http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/11163/? and here

zanity wrote: What are you dribbling about? Valve and Zenimax can write anything they like into EULAs or other agreements, and those agreements hold no more weight in Law than this morning's flushed toilet paper if Valve and Zenimax seek to restrict your rights.

Let me make this SIMPLE. say you release code under some open-source licence. Then you SELL your code under a different licence (which as the code owner you are most certainly entitled to do). The fact that you now sell your code (or someone sells it for you) CANNOT terminate the earlier open-source licence. Idiots that no NOTHING about the Law constantly claim that a new license can over-ride an old existing one.

What about a mod that has never been published anywhere before it appears on Steam Store. Even here, the attempt by Valve to claim EXCLUSIVE distribution rights wouldn't stand up in court. For Valve to earn such a right, it would have to be providing a significant SERVICE to the mod creator, else it would count as RESTRAINT OF TRADE. Merely offering a shop front isn't good enough.

Valve has always attempted to act beyond the Law, claiming (falsely) that its business model is not covered by existing consumer and fair trading Laws. Valve pays off complainants BEFORE they seek legal redress in court, to hide the fact that most of their terms and conditions are illegal- certainly throughout the EU. The fact that Valve actually told mod authors to freely pirate each others content should come as no surprise whatsoever.

Anyway, it is Zenimax that has been most despicable- waiting until the modding community for Skyrim was ready for HARVEST, so an insanely immoral corporation (remember- it claims that Oculus Rift VR is theirs simply because they allowed Carmack to work there) could make a few extra dollars.

Any decent company would have left Skyrim alone (after all this time) and kept the new 'feature' of paid mods for Fallout 4, where a fresh start could have at least attempted to address all the potential issues.

He didn't even need to read fine print to know that. That has been the #1 concern discussed time and time again since the news about this broke a month ago. He put too much trust in the hastily typed words of a Valve representative who didn't know their *** from a hole in the ground, and he didn't pay enough attention to the mod users out there who have been practically pleading with mod authors for the past month not to buy into this scam.

Chesko is certainly a victim. But anyone who believes that he is a BLAMELESS victim is as big a fool as he is (no offense intended to Chesko or anyone who sympathizes with him, but a spade is a spade).

[WightMage]

In response to post #24663854. #24664244, #24664334, #24664879, #24665094, #24665224, #24665344, #24665379, #24665404, #24665564 are all replies on the same post.

Ryker61 wrote:

WightMage wrote: Sauce?

Who filed it? Was it another modder?

Will we need to backup our versions of Wet & Cold before the take down notices appear here?

WightMage wrote: Oh my God: https://archive.is/ayjaw

Regardless of my personal feelings regarding Isoku, this really sucks.

Ryker61 wrote: I took a screen cap of his W&C SW page, but I have no way of posting it here. You'll have to go and check it for yourself.

The notification is at the top of the page. There's no indication as to the identity of the individual who filed the DMCA.

I highly doubt a DMCA will be filed here on the Nexus. My suspicion is that the DMCA was filed over recent paid mod fiasco.

DrGonzo31 wrote: I'm guessing it wasn't actually the mod author who uploaded that for sale, but some jagoff looking to make money off someone else's work. That's really my big fear here: what's to stop someone from taking someone else's mod and selling it on steam? Maybe because I don't use the Workshop there's a few pieces I'm missing, but that's what I see causing the whole thing to go pear shaped.

WightMage wrote: No dude, that was totally Isoku himself who uploaded Wet and Cold. The only problem is, like Chesko, he forgit that most of his work uses assets made by OTHER modders to begin with, for free.

More likely than not, one of them filed that DMCA.

Ryker61 wrote: While that sounds like a good theory, I'm a little skeptical as to whether or not that is the case. We'll have to wait and see.

The other side of it is that if that is the case, and someone fraudulently uploaded Isoku's mod, then why hasn't he come forward to let everyone know that this happened?

Edit: Wrightmage replied before I did.

digitaltrucker wrote: Of course, we have no way of knowing if the DMCA takedown notice is itself legitimate.

WightMage wrote: Isoku left the Nexus two days ago, when the paid mod scheme launched. He said as much in a goodbye post here in one of the mod comment sections- either Wet and Cold or iNeeds.

d00rman wrote: Didn't he say Wet & Cold 2.0 was rebuilt from the ground up? I think I also heard him saying it didn't utilize anyone's asset and all that, in the comments prior to the 23rd april. Thing is, he was contacted by Steam at least a month ahead of this whole ordeal, he probably knew people wouldn't let him use their assets, so he used all that time to rebuild the mod with that in mind.

If that's the case, then he should be fine. But one does not simply file a fradulent DMCA...

[VVoulf]

I think at the heart of it, in all of it in fact. You are right, just because the implementing of paid mods, free mods won't just up and die. Just because the paid option exists doesn't mean that suddenly every mod ever created will come with a price-tag attached to it. Fantastic content can and will still be created, just look at some of the things created and put on youtube by inspired and creative people.

 

But i would like to note that the way Valve suddenly implemented this was incredibly naive. From one day to the other with no warning (even though you predicted such) suddenly revealing paid mods was a mistake. Especially with how quickly opinions, in particular strong ones can spread through the internet. It does not surprise me the things people have written and sent to the modauthors who currently have their mods available as a paid mod on the workshop, but it very much disgusts me. The abominable things that people think they have a right to say, just because they are unhappy with a sudden change.

 

Now ME as a user have spent very little time time endorsing and commenting here on the nexus before this, in fact this is my first. Since i am very much a lurker. But i will personally try to improve that for the sake of doing my share of trying to keep the fantastic modding community alive and well.

I would also like thank you for the fantastic service you host here on the nexus and the fantastic opportunity for people to create content which they care for and to receive constructive feedback and criticism unlike what we have seen in abundance during the past days. So thank you for giving people this opportunity and for being the central pillar in this blooming community.

 

I just hope that the outrage of the individuals who followed their initial reactions and poured hatred straight into the face of dedicated people who have created some magnificent things won't have more dire consequences than they already have.

 

I wish you the best, and the best of luck whilst we hold on and wait for this storm to pass so we can understand at which coast our metaphorical ship has landed at.

[abestrus]

And I hope others can see that we need to keep sites like the Nexus and LL open and running. This storm will pass and it will be messy and there will be many casualties. Let's make sure this place isn't one of them, even if you don't agree with the Dark0ne, you have to respect the great modders who have chosen to stay here and keep their content free. Edited April 26, 2015 by abestrus

[Deleted3507349User]

In response to post #24665034. #24665599 is also a reply to the same post.

digitaltrucker wrote:

popcorn71 wrote: You do understand that this was porbaly Bethesda and Valves intention from the start, right? Stir up enough anger in the the modding communitys 'old guard' and get enough of the talented modders who produce free mods to leave the modding scene in disgusted, and by definition you reduce the competition that the newer payed junk mods have to deal with. There for more mod sales.

From a tactical stand point it makes sense . Weather or not its a good idea from a over all strategic stand point is something else entirely.

I absolutely understand that. That actually was my first thought when this all started. Furthermore, I suspected something was in the wind when Bethesda announced their special little news conference taking place right before this year's E3. I didn't for a minute think it would really be about announcing new games, that's way too expensive for something of that nature.

Ultimately, there's nothing we can really do BUT protest and hope for the best. Money talks loudest, always has. This also means that our loudest voice is used when we withhold our money. Call me a voice in the wilderness all you want, but my own personal integrity will be satisfied. Edited April 26, 2015 by digitaltrucker

[zanity]

In response to post #24663854. #24664244, #24664334, #24664879, #24665094, #24665224, #24665344, #24665379, #24665404, #24665564, #24665614 are all replies on the same post.

Ryker61 wrote:

WightMage wrote: Sauce?

Who filed it? Was it another modder?

Will we need to backup our versions of Wet & Cold before the take down notices appear here?

WightMage wrote: Oh my God: https://archive.is/ayjaw

Regardless of my personal feelings regarding Isoku, this really sucks.

Ryker61 wrote: I took a screen cap of his W&C SW page, but I have no way of posting it here. You'll have to go and check it for yourself.

The notification is at the top of the page. There's no indication as to the identity of the individual who filed the DMCA.

I highly doubt a DMCA will be filed here on the Nexus. My suspicion is that the DMCA was filed over recent paid mod fiasco.

DrGonzo31 wrote: I'm guessing it wasn't actually the mod author who uploaded that for sale, but some jagoff looking to make money off someone else's work. That's really my big fear here: what's to stop someone from taking someone else's mod and selling it on steam? Maybe because I don't use the Workshop there's a few pieces I'm missing, but that's what I see causing the whole thing to go pear shaped.

WightMage wrote: No dude, that was totally Isoku himself who uploaded Wet and Cold. The only problem is, like Chesko, he forgit that most of his work uses assets made by OTHER modders to begin with, for free.

More likely than not, one of them filed that DMCA.

Ryker61 wrote: While that sounds like a good theory, I'm a little skeptical as to whether or not that is the case. We'll have to wait and see.

The other side of it is that if that is the case, and someone fraudulently uploaded Isoku's mod, then why hasn't he come forward to let everyone know that this happened?

Edit: Wrightmage replied before I did.

digitaltrucker wrote: Of course, we have no way of knowing if the DMCA takedown notice is itself legitimate.

WightMage wrote: Isoku left the Nexus two days ago, when the paid mod scheme launched. He said as much in a goodbye post here in one of the mod comment sections- either Wet and Cold or iNeeds.

d00rman wrote: Didn't he say Wet & Cold 2.0 was rebuilt from the ground up? I think I also heard him saying it didn't utilize anyone's asset and all that, in the comments prior to the 23rd april. Thing is, he was contacted by Steam at least a month ahead of this whole ordeal, he probably knew people wouldn't let him use their assets, so he used all that time to rebuild the mod with that in mind.

WightMage wrote: If that's the case, then he should be fine. But one does not simply file a fradulent DMCA...

DIRTY PAID mods on Steam are ILLEGAL mods. A DIRTY mod is any mod that employs IP that hasn't been properly licensed, including bug finding and feature suggestions made by people when they were told the mod would be free. Google, for instance, pays a FORTUNE to people who find significant bugs in their products. Hollywood pays a fortune to the people who DESIGN their products.

A clean mod (try finding an existing Skyrim mod that is 'clean') uses ONLY the author's own work, or content that has either been appropriately paid for or has licences allowing its use in derived COMMERCIAL products.

Valve and Zenimax told the mod authors they approached and attempted to corrupt several months ago that they could STEAL the work of others and their paid mods would still be published. Piracy, apparently, is 'fine' when it benefits the pockets of Valve and Zenimax. But neither Zenimax nor Valve can change the REAL Law to suit. Once your Mod carries a price, it must be as legally correct as any other sold software program- and that also includes "fitness of purpose" ("as is" is NOT a lawful product definition).

All dirty mods on Steam should be targeted for DMCA complaints. All clean mod authors should be wished the best of luck, if any ever appear.

[mALX1]

 

I for one am glad that they gave the 5% option for other modding communities rather than just Steam to reap it all if this is where the state of the modding community is headed.

 

This site has been here as long as I've been playing Bethesda games, and god knows how much bandwidth I've cost them. And TESAlliance taught me everything about modding I know to this point. I don't even know if they are listed as a service provider, but truthfully I hope they are.

 

Because otherwise Steam is just going to have that 5% extra in their pocket, and they are the last ones I'd like to see have it.

 

I am against paid mods more because of the way it is being done - and I'm not talking about the breakdown of monies at all; but channeling everything through Steam who has not yet policed their own site to this point; and even handed out administrative privileges to mod authors to police their own pages - as much as handing the thieves a way to get rid of the original authors claims to their work.

 

If we had been dealt with honestly, and upfront right from the start instead of this cloak of secrecy and deception - that doesn't garner trust. Truthfully, I am more against this just because of the secretive way it was handled, like trying to pull something over on everyone.

 

I can't trust Steam at all to have any of our best interests at heart. Nexus I trust, and don't for a second begrudge them a service fee for all the bandwidth they provide freely for all of us. I have never doubted Nexus could be trusted to be on our side come hell or high water. And this is the hell and high water, and I believe they are on our side like they have always been.

 

Do I believe Steam told Chesko not to ask permission of Fores - yeah, I do. They wrapped this up so deep in secrecy; so yeah, I believe him on that. And then Steam's lawyer as much as gave Chesko the go ahead legally.

 

Any one of us would know it was wrong. Every one of us would have known not to. Chesko shouldn't have used that mod if he couldn't get permission first. We all know better than to use without asking, and if he was bound to secrecy he should have held back on that mod or removed the part of it that he couldn't ask about. (or just uploaded Arissa if it is really true that was all his work; although I seem to remember her needing FNIS too, but I could be wrong).

 

The fact that Steam's lawyer encouraged him to use Fores work without permission and gave the legal go ahead just shows how untrustworthy Steam will be in protecting any of us. From what I understand, they actually forbade Chesko from removing it even knowing another's work was in it - because supposedly it had sold several copies already.

 

Fores rights to his intellectual property were the last thing on Steam's mind. They do not have any of our best interest in their mind; but Nexus does.

 

It is better they receive that 5% than Steam, and I hope if any of our members do go sell their mods, that they make sure that 5% goes to Nexus, TESAlliance, AFK, etc - the places that have done the most for you. And hope that these sites all still have a future when all the dust from Valve-Steam-Bethesda plans have settled.

 

It isn't about the money. It has everything to do with the community as a whole; the future of modding as we know it.

 

I do have to budget my income; I doubt there is a single person here that doesn't. But for all they have done for me, I am more than glad to support Nexus and TESAlliance - and I trust them both fully to have my best interests at heart.

 

And Modders like Stroti, Tamira, Badgremlin, FlintOne/Garnet18, JBVW, Rileymarks, Mr_Siika, MEO, ORTeam, DesuChan/Misianthrope, Yevic, DarkRider, Insanity Sorrow, Timeslip, etc. - I would gladly pay donations to any of these modders in a heartbeat if I had the money and the option was available; or purchase memberships in their name if I was rolling in funds, etc.

 

These mods brought he greatest fun and immersion imaginable to my game. I have used their mods for years and years and loved them; they brought more enjoyment to my game than I ever thought possible - and this is just the names that come to the top of my head, there are so many more that deserve mention here that I will kick myself for not remembering to mention later.

 

So it isn't about the money. It is about the future of this modding community. It is about the future of Nexus, and TESAlliance. We have already seen the secrecy they used to spring this on everyone, so I have to wonder what else they are up to that we don't know; and how will it affect us and Nexus.

 

This occurring right now, just before E3 where Fallout 4 is to be announced - well, I can't help but wonder if Steam is going to have exclusive upload rights to all the Geck mods for Fallout 4.

 

The service agreement being discussed here may be just for Skyrim mods. Then what happens to Nexus if they are cut out of the future of modding Betheda games?

 

I don't trust Steam, they are slicker than (*@#%&). And there is a strong possibility they may be funding Bethesda's pre-production costs for Fallout 4. The future of Nexus's connection to Bethesda may be in jeopardy beyond this point.

 

I don't blame them for one second that they allowed themselves to be listed as Service Providers. I doubt they had any more choice in the future of what Bethesda and Steam are planning than we have as a community. But to churlishly refuse the offer would be to cut their own noses off to spite their own face; there would be no sense in that.

 

But all of us need to be concerned about where this is headed beyond this incident. Because it is headed somewhere, this is just the first bump in the road. I just hope we all have each other at the end of all of this; that we still have this Awesome site that has been our home for over a decade. Nexus has my full support, and always will. I trust whatever business decisions they make to be in all of our best interest.

 

Can't say the same for Steam, or even Bethesda at this point.

 

 

[WightMage]

In response to post #24663854. #24664244, #24664334, #24664879, #24665094, #24665224, #24665344, #24665379, #24665404, #24665564, #24665614, #24665754 are all replies on the same post.

Ryker61 wrote:

WightMage wrote: Sauce?

Who filed it? Was it another modder?

Will we need to backup our versions of Wet & Cold before the take down notices appear here?

WightMage wrote: Oh my God: https://archive.is/ayjaw

Regardless of my personal feelings regarding Isoku, this really sucks.

Ryker61 wrote: I took a screen cap of his W&C SW page, but I have no way of posting it here. You'll have to go and check it for yourself.

The notification is at the top of the page. There's no indication as to the identity of the individual who filed the DMCA.

I highly doubt a DMCA will be filed here on the Nexus. My suspicion is that the DMCA was filed over recent paid mod fiasco.

DrGonzo31 wrote: I'm guessing it wasn't actually the mod author who uploaded that for sale, but some jagoff looking to make money off someone else's work. That's really my big fear here: what's to stop someone from taking someone else's mod and selling it on steam? Maybe because I don't use the Workshop there's a few pieces I'm missing, but that's what I see causing the whole thing to go pear shaped.

WightMage wrote: No dude, that was totally Isoku himself who uploaded Wet and Cold. The only problem is, like Chesko, he forgit that most of his work uses assets made by OTHER modders to begin with, for free.

More likely than not, one of them filed that DMCA.

Ryker61 wrote: While that sounds like a good theory, I'm a little skeptical as to whether or not that is the case. We'll have to wait and see.

The other side of it is that if that is the case, and someone fraudulently uploaded Isoku's mod, then why hasn't he come forward to let everyone know that this happened?

Edit: Wrightmage replied before I did.

digitaltrucker wrote: Of course, we have no way of knowing if the DMCA takedown notice is itself legitimate.

WightMage wrote: Isoku left the Nexus two days ago, when the paid mod scheme launched. He said as much in a goodbye post here in one of the mod comment sections- either Wet and Cold or iNeeds.

d00rman wrote: Didn't he say Wet & Cold 2.0 was rebuilt from the ground up? I think I also heard him saying it didn't utilize anyone's asset and all that, in the comments prior to the 23rd april. Thing is, he was contacted by Steam at least a month ahead of this whole ordeal, he probably knew people wouldn't let him use their assets, so he used all that time to rebuild the mod with that in mind.

WightMage wrote: If that's the case, then he should be fine. But one does not simply file a fradulent DMCA...

zanity wrote: DIRTY PAID mods on Steam are ILLEGAL mods. A DIRTY mod is any mod that employs IP that hasn't been properly licensed, including bug finding and feature suggestions made by people when they were told the mod would be free. Google, for instance, pays a FORTUNE to people who find significant bugs in their products. Hollywood pays a fortune to the people who DESIGN their products.

A clean mod (try finding an existing Skyrim mod that is 'clean') uses ONLY the author's own work, or content that has either been appropriately paid for or has licences allowing its use in derived COMMERCIAL products.

Valve and Zenimax told the mod authors they approached and attempted to corrupt several months ago that they could STEAL the work of others and their paid mods would still be published. Piracy, apparently, is 'fine' when it benefits the pockets of Valve and Zenimax. But neither Zenimax nor Valve can change the REAL Law to suit. Once your Mod carries a price, it must be as legally correct as any other sold software program- and that also includes "fitness of purpose" ("as is" is NOT a lawful product definition).

All dirty mods on Steam should be targeted for DMCA complaints. All clean mod authors should be wished the best of luck, if any ever appear.

Oh hey Zanity, you were MIA for a couple days there, welcome back.