WE WON STEAM REMOVES PAY FOR MODS

[Korodic]

It's a shame it has to be this way. I even had friends of mine on facebook praising this. Little did he know paid mods were optional. A lot of people do not understand the way the system worked.

I think some people thought that steam/valve were the ones who were going to start charging for modders work... but it was the modders who made that choice.

I still wouldn't have used that system due to the insanely poor price split. I'd rather my work be free if I'd only get 25% that's just laughable. But I did appreciate the idea and rights given to me that I could choose to sell my work if I wished.

People ruined that though with their strong sense of false entitlement and ridiculous beliefs. I work in IT and one of the most dangerous things someone can say is "we've always done it this way" ... that is a poor excuse to refuse change. Let alone the fact most of the people calling me "greedy" have never even made a single mod. I can't believe people united to limit a mod authors freedom and choices. It's disgusting. Especially when everyone else in the gaming community profits off of mods created by people like me.

Vavle gets a cut since steam workshop increases sales of games they sell (increasing their cut and sway with companies).

The game maker gets a cut since, again, mods help sell games.

YouTubers get a cut since they make ad revenue off of mod reviews.

The Nexus gets a cut with ad revenue.

Gaming magazines/news sites can report on mods occasionally and their stories can generate sales.

But god forbid the person who makes a mod gets anything... No they should just settle for a tip jar (donate button).

I've only ever received 1 donation for my 1000+ endorsements. People tend not to donate. S***, people barely even endorse mods. Just look at SkyUI's endorsement ratio.

I also don't like people telling me I should just settle for a donation button either. You don't go into a store and take whatever you want and donate if you feel like it. You pay the price they deem appropriate for the item and leave. You don't want to pay for it? You want it for free? Then you can leave that store and go to a goodwill.

I could go on for days... but I'll stop. I've spent hours this week re-expressing all of these points. I don't know why, you won't get through to these people and what would be the point... they got exactly what they wanted and I loose my right as an author to get a little compensation for all the hours I invest in this hobby.

People told me I should invest my time in a skill that pays and they're right. I'll never say I got into modding for money, but it really would have been cool making a little bit of living money while doing what I love.

[soupdragon1234]

Also: This is the community people are creating mods for -- from YouTube

 

"jack darrell 12 minutes ago (edited)

Everything jv209 said is 100% spot on.

Majority of mods are NOT worth paying for.

Modding is NOT a job.

If you want money for your mods, accept donations.

No one wants to pay you losers money for some glitchy half assed mod that barely adds anything to the game.

Show less"

 

I think if anyone said that to my face I'd slap them around theirs, and hard.

 

 

Jupp, pretty much that's the message that came across to authors from their potential users through the last few days.

 

We "owe" them all mods we ever create and should be "thankful" they even consider giving them a try, then come back and shred into pieces everything we were so proud of having created ourselves, because it wasn't the way "they" wanted it.

 

The time and effort we put into our works is "worth sh**" in their eyes, and we're a traitor to the "community" when we even so much as consider asking for something in return, and if it's only a "thanks?".

They put us on Black Lists, call in mob squads to everywhere we hang around, remove all anyways-completely-worthless Endorsements from our mods, steal our mods, upload them to pirate sites and link to these from every place they find suitable.

 

 

I was reading a comments from thread of a "well-known UI" and someone was having problem with it... and it was basically because it was an "unofficial" copy. The guy downloads a, and lets not beat about the bush here, a pirate copy because he didn't want to pay for it then has the almighty cheek to ask the author for help with it!

 

 

There's apparently also an unlimited number of us and an abundance of talent was thrown around at birth, for as everybody is at least just as much, if not way more, talented than we are in their eyes.

And it's definitely no loss when a few of us quit and take their mods with them, as there'll always be others, and they will always create the same kind of mods in similar or better quality than we did.

 

Personally regarding the revolting state the "community" showed itself to be lately I have wouldn't blame them if mod authors removed the entire contents of the Nexus... though probably not so good for Dark0ne's income.

 

 

I've only ever received 1 donation for my 1000+ endorsements. People tend not to donate. S***, people barely even endorse mods. Just look at SkyUI's endorsement ratio.

 

Heh, thats 1 more than me then. I happened to mention this on another forum and I got the response: "Your mods must be s*** then."

 

Cheers, buddy. Much appreciated.

Edited April 29, 2015 by soupdragon1234

[block2001]

Honestly this whole fiasco really showed the true colours of our community and well...it kinda sucks, while I will agree that the system could have been better, the formula for mod creators getting something tangible back for their hard work is definitely something that is totally worth exploring, but then we have these mod users who are being entitled assholes demanding that it is their God-given right to take someone's work and not have to pay for it...do you honestly see how ridiculous that sounds? Look I love free modding as much as the next person and heck, I would prefer not to have to pay for mods. However on the flip side I also know how much work it takes to make something, being a small time author who started writing stories for blogs and such, sure I write for the joy of writing but at the same time the amount of time I put into it doesn't put bread on the table. If i was given an opportunity to write a novel which I could sell, of course I would be all for it, making something for doing something I love totally worth it even more so than just writing for free. In the real world people generally get paid for the work that they do, and let's be honest here a lot of these mod creators deserve it...This is not a "win for the community" like you proclaim, rather this was just a wake-up call for many hard working mod authors and mod users like myself.

Rant over,

Block2001

Edited April 29, 2015 by block2001

[Xenoshi]

The Skyrim community really is....something else. The comments on YouTube and Steam that people are making, especially really anti-Semitic comments are just...Wow.

 

http://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/search/?q=Jew&gidforum=864943227215638941

 

Says it all.

 

"You are just a greedy ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ who smelled money and want to *** people while getting ***** even more yourself by companies.

We alreay have broken and unoptimized games, day 1 dlcs, dlcs in general we dont need paid mods.

Be greedy and stop modding. Like i care, the rest who arent in for the money will continue modding and new ones will come also.

Funny thing that you couldnt give any real argument to real examples.

Let alone when we have crackers, console & gameserver emulator creators working for free giving it free, then mods literally cant even compare.

But sure, you are free to feel entitled to get paid. :)

So how is it that only or mostly Skyrim modders cry now for money?

You guys are a joke. :)"

Edited April 29, 2015 by Xenoshi

[LucasKing1501]

Truly, in my completely irrelevant and non-important opinion, the paying for mods being optional was not that bad of an idea. Allowing it to be the modder's choice, that is. The cut Valve took from it was ridiculous though. 75/25 to Valve? what work do they spend building, testing, and breaking their bank to build a mod? 75/25 to the modders would've been awesome, but i think the community wouldn't have argued with 50/50 or 60/40 to the modders.

[rickerhk]

 

I still wouldn't have used that system due to the insanely poor price split. I'd rather my work be free if I'd only get 25% that's just laughable. But I did appreciate the idea and rights given to me that I could choose to sell my work if I wished.

Exactly. None of my current mods would I even consider for the workshop - they are all just conversions of other people's work. But It was nice to have a choice for a couple of days - If I wanted to develop something targeted for the workshop. And the mod would also be here on the Nexus for free. Only 8% of Skyrim owners have ever used a mod. I would be going after that 92% that can't be bothered with doing anything outside of their steam client to download a mod, use a mod manager, etc. At this point I'm just going to wait and see what happens with Fallout 4. Really not going to waste any more time with Skyrim.

[Vagrant0]

30% to Valve as Distributor, this is the standard fee.

45% to Bethesda as Publisher.

25% to the modder.

 

As an author, my revenues are split thusly:

 

30% to Amazon, my distributor.

If I had a publisher, a book publisher will typically take 40-45% of your revenue.

That would leave me with 25-30% of the revenue as profit.

 

 

While the split really isn't anything new... The problem, atleast from where I saw it, was what justified their cut. With other forms of licensing and distributing the situation is quite a bit different from what was happening here.

 

When you're talking about licensing an IP from a published source, you're usually dealing with a reasonably fleshed out IP that has exclusivity to that source. You are essentially paying for a privilege to base your work on theirs with the understanding that you are one of the few who can legally and still earn something from it. For their part, they are usually to provide further insight into their world so things remain consistent, provide guidelines regarding what kind of content they want connected with theirs, and allow you to borrow the name of their IP for furthering your work. This is a situation that both benefits both parties and involves them in a certain amount of risk. Due to the suddenness of what happened with Skyrim Mods, none of this could even happen in an official way. It was not made clear why Bethesda was getting their cut, what their responsibilities were regarding these official mods, and further what the responsibilities of the authors were regarding entering into this agreement.

 

When you're talking about a distributor, things are in a similar way... The cut that the distributor gets is not simply just to distribute, but to also act as a mediator between the author and the customer. This is not just monetary matters like issuing sales or refunds, or even giving legal protection against lawsuits related from improper use. This also covers things on their end, such as vetting the validity of what is being sold both through screening their potential sellers as well as looking at the product and making sure it was something that can legally be sold. Valve wasn't doing any of this. They were letting people upload anything they wanted for any price, and happily took their cut of the sale with all questions and complaints being forwarded directly to the author. As a result, not only were outright stolen mods a problem, but so were previously free mods which were now being charged for as well as mods containing the work of other authors. This led to anger and outrage on all sides since Valve seemed to be just taking the money, asking no questions, and just saying that it wasn't their problem.

 

If these things were being done, or atleast being made more clear as to what the responsibilities of all the parties involved were, then the 30/45/25 cut is perfectly fine. The problem is that none of this was done to any meaningful level, none of it was explained, and people were left to try and make up their own narrative over what to think about the whole thing while everyone else around them was busy freaking out.

[TheMastersSon]

I haven't read any background info on Steam's "Skyrim Workshop". Is any of it relevant to Oblivion mods or was it just a Skyrim thing?

 

Generally the bottom line imo is, as soon as money starts being exchanged it stops being a community and becomes a commercial venture. Please pick just one of those two and go with it.

 

Also I had to laugh at Bethesda taking 45% of the revenue. They can't be bothered to fix 1500+ bugs in Oblivion, but they're standing there waiting for 45% when their customers fix these problems for them. What a business model.

[Xenoshi]

Truly, in my completely irrelevant and non-important opinion, the paying for mods being optional was not that bad of an idea. Allowing it to be the modder's choice, that is. The cut Valve took from it was ridiculous though. 75/25 to Valve? what work do they spend building, testing, and breaking their bank to build a mod? 75/25 to the modders would've been awesome, but i think the community wouldn't have argued with 50/50 or 60/40 to the modders.

The 75/25 split was industry standard.

30% Went to Valve, which is standard.

45% Went to the Publisher, which is also standard.

 

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef0120a8b7438c970b-600wi

 

 

30% to Valve as Distributor, this is the standard fee.

45% to Bethesda as Publisher.

25% to the modder.

 

As an author, my revenues are split thusly:

 

30% to Amazon, my distributor.

If I had a publisher, a book publisher will typically take 40-45% of your revenue.

That would leave me with 25-30% of the revenue as profit.

 

 

While the split really isn't anything new... The problem, atleast from where I saw it, was what justified their cut. With other forms of licensing and distributing the situation is quite a bit different from what was happening here.

 

When you're talking about licensing an IP from a published source, you're usually dealing with a reasonably fleshed out IP that has exclusivity to that source. You are essentially paying for a privilege to base your work on theirs with the understanding that you are one of the few who can legally and still earn something from it. For their part, they are usually to provide further insight into their world so things remain consistent, provide guidelines regarding what kind of content they want connected with theirs, and allow you to borrow the name of their IP for furthering your work. This is a situation that both benefits both parties and involves them in a certain amount of risk. Due to the suddenness of what happened with Skyrim Mods, none of this could even happen in an official way. It was not made clear why Bethesda was getting their cut, what their responsibilities were regarding these official mods, and further what the responsibilities of the authors were regarding entering into this agreement.

 

When you're talking about a distributor, things are in a similar way... The cut that the distributor gets is not simply just to distribute, but to also act as a mediator between the author and the customer. This is not just monetary matters like issuing sales or refunds, or even giving legal protection against lawsuits related from improper use. This also covers things on their end, such as vetting the validity of what is being sold both through screening their potential sellers as well as looking at the product and making sure it was something that can legally be sold. Valve wasn't doing any of this. They were letting people upload anything they wanted for any price, and happily took their cut of the sale with all questions and complaints being forwarded directly to the author. As a result, not only were outright stolen mods a problem, but so were previously free mods which were now being charged for as well as mods containing the work of other authors. This led to anger and outrage on all sides since Valve seemed to be just taking the money, asking no questions, and just saying that it wasn't their problem.

 

If these things were being done, or atleast being made more clear as to what the responsibilities of all the parties involved were, then the 30/45/25 cut is perfectly fine. The problem is that none of this was done to any meaningful level, none of it was explained, and people were left to try and make up their own narrative over what to think about the whole thing while everyone else around them was busy freaking out.

 

 

I do know what for Kindle Worlds, for example, the authors of the published fanfiction only get anywhere from 20% to 30% depending on how long their stories are. The license holder takes the majority of the revenue and essentially provides no real benefit to the authors in question besides usually placing down a short guideline list of what content is/is not acceptable, they get the big cut because they own the license to the content and without their permission you could do exactly diddly and squat.

 

However, the community didn't really give it enough time to see how the arrangement was going to work. Instead of improving on it, they screamed about how modders should get nothing and killed it.

[Vagrant0]

I haven't read any background info on Steam's "Skyrim Workshop". Is any of it relevant to Oblivion mods or was it just a Skyrim thing?

 

Generally the bottom line imo is, as soon as money starts being exchanged it stops being a community and becomes a commercial venture. Please pick just one of those two and go with it.

 

Also I had to laugh at Bethesda taking 45% of the revenue. They can't be bothered to fix 1500+ bugs in Oblivion, but they're standing there waiting for 45% when their customers fix these problems for them. What a business model.

It was only Skyrim. They will probably revisit this when it comes to their next game, but it would never work with older games like Oblivion.

 

Why would they take money from what was the last game they released to fix a game which they've already completely stopped supporting? I know you expect certain things, but that really isn't a good business model. A company that wants to remain in business doesn't spend money on things which won't in turn earn money back for them. Even in regards to Skyrim, there is nothing which would hint towards them having any interest in spending that money towards more patches. The reality with modern games is that often there are aspects which can never be patched out, or which are bugs that only even occur once you've added mods or used the console. This is one of the reasons why no games of significant size are bug free. Nevermind the part where a patch fixes one bug but creates others.

 

In relation to the modding scene, significant bugfixes often break more mods than they fix since those mods may touch on some of the same mechanics or areas which were changed, thereby causing the mod to either break those mechanics completely, conflict with the changes, or causes the mod to stop working. Not sure if you've noticed, but modding with these sorts of games really only ever picks up and enters into full swing once all the patches are done and overwith. A large reason for this is because it is at that point that people can start investing hundreds of hours into a project without being afraid of a patch that would completely break their mod and force them to abandon the project or spend many hundreds of hours more trying to make the mod work again. Continuous patching only ends up making modders have to start from scratch every single time a new patch is released... Case in point Minecraft Modding.

 

 

 

 

they get the big cut because they own the license to the content and without their permission you could do exactly diddly and squat.

 

While that is the effective end of it... There's really more to it than that.

 

Typically with IP licensing you have essentially a 3 way contract. The author to the IP holder, the IP holder to the customer, the author to the customer.

 

The author gets:

Use of pre-established characters, mechanics, groups, or universes saving them from having to do so from scratch.

Access to an already existing consumer base related to that IP to connect with the author's work as a means of getting noticed.

 

The author's responsibilities:

Respecting the IP to the extent as allowed by the contract.

 

The IP holder gets:

Monetary income from a 2nd party.

Continued interest in their franchise without having to personally produce anything.

 

The IP holder's responsibilities:

Ensuring the licensed product holds up to the terms of the contract.

Accepting that content tied to their IP will reflect back on how that IP is viewed by potential customers.

 

The customer gets:

New content that is set in a universe they like and are familiar with.

 

The customer's responsibilities:

Being the ultimate provider of all income generated by means of the contract.

Acknowledging that content provided by a 2nd party may not be cannon or up to the same measure of quality.

 

 

Atleast ideally. The problem is that with mods and in particular how they were put up on Steam, none of this sort of contract existed. Valve was not responsible for anything beyond a very base level of customer service. If the customer had any problem with the mod, the listings of which they don't curate or check for validity, they had 24 hours to get a refund to Steam wallet, then it was their problem. Meanwhile Bethesda was getting money just to look the other way.

 

Unlike with a narrative work, mods don't necessarily have to borrow on anything related to the game in question and fall more closely to being a work of visual art. While visual art can still benefit from being tied to an IP, there is usually a much looser connection with what is established by the IP. For example, weapon mods. Weapon mods don't really tie into the lore, universe, locations, or even artistic styling of a game, but can exist mostly on their own... only connected to the mechanical limitation of needing the game to already be owned by the customer in order to use that mod. This brings modding closer to a standpoint of just program licensing rather than the IP... Which is usually a much smaller cut of sales.