Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[calyps]

Well that was quick. This was pretty horribly done. Rushed mods secretly commissioned. Horrible split. A 4 year old game with 4 years of mod resources already in existence. I definitely agree modders deserve compensation but this was a mistake of New Coke proportions. It showed a clear misunderstanding of how the bethesda modding community works and a total lack of foresight.

 

Streamline donations. That's the only way to compensate skyrim modders that is equitable for everyone but it needs to be as easy as buying a song on itunes. Leave paywalls to EA games and stupid hats. And no, bethesda nor valve deserve any of the donation. They made their money. They have entire legal teams and support structures. Modders are often living with low income, modding for the love of creation and with generosity to share their labor (and maybe hope of a little niche recognition).

 

Thankfully this disaster is over.

[bladeofshadow]

Justice has been served. Although I doubt this is the end, they will be back for more hurt later.

[Sakorona]

In response to post #24745044. #24745229, #24745464, #24745559, #24745634, #24745674, #24745769, #24746064, #24746434, #24746794, #24746974, #24747029, #24747269, #24750919 are all replies on the same post.

oldnotweak wrote:

jfisha wrote: Did you not read any comments that were in support? Did those get deleted or something?

ChizFoShiz wrote: The trouble is the users out number the authors by such an incredible ratio that we have no voice, no one is able to speak up for any of us against a tidal wave of entitlement like what we just witnessed this weekend.

If you want to *really* feel disgusted go over to reddit and read all the circle jerking "we won" nonsense.

It's absolutely shameful.

chaotix14 wrote: Most of those were just afraid their mods and the future modding community would go and hide behind a paywall. Also it didn't help that they launched it on steam, the problems with early access, greenlight, the open sewer gates policy on the store and even the steam workshop itself as a service, did not fill the community with a lot of faith in what this would turn out to be. And reading about the 24 hour return policy didn't exactly fill many with faith. I mean it basically was a statement that either said: "we don't understand mods. And we don't understand that you might not have the time to immediately go play the game." or "We don't care that you are left with broken stuff."

BadYeti wrote: You haven't seen entitled users until you accept their money. :P

theblueshark wrote: should have been a 1 week trial..some mods wont show that its s#*! till you're half way there..

@ oldnotweak some people that did not want the paywall is due to the cut modders were having. though we were outnumbered by people that wanted it for free forever.

diyeath wrote: @ ChizFoShiz entitlement works both ways. For nearly 2 decades we've had a community that had no issues with creating content without guaranteed monetary incentive.

Money absolutely corrupts thought process and this is a perfect case study of that social phenomina.

ChizFoShiz wrote: @ diyeath "A perfect case study" in what way? Modders get the option to be compensated and then get run off the internet? Yeah, those guys were so corrupt. Give me a freaking break.

And as for entitlement working both ways your example only illustrates the entitlement of the userbase more so, just because something has been free for the longest time, doesn't mean it has to forever, expecting that it must is pretty entitled I'd say.

icanhazmodspls wrote: @ ChizFoShiz. Yes i am entitled to some consumer rights. Firstly if i pay for a mod you can't guarantee it won't break my game as mods are inherently unstable with the game and especially with each other. Given that the majority of users use multiple mods that is rather important don't you think?

Second if i get a refund i want it to be in real money not steam monopoly money. These are basic rights as consumer so yes entitlement works both ways.

Lastly paid mods could only work if there was some form of quality control from steam, an area in which they are notoriously lacking in.

diyeath wrote: @ ChizFoShiz corrupting thought process is different than being corrupt. Very, very different. The only ones I'd truly consider corrupt are the ones who took down free mods to host them for money on steam. People like chesko are not corrupt in any visible way.

I'm basing my opinions off of emperical data collected over nearly 2 decades. That system worked fine and very, very few people complained. In fact the only one of note that I can remember is Locaster. So when you say that bringing up the fact that entitelment goes both ways shows even more entitlement I can't help but laugh because you're showing more entitlement. Its a gigantic fallicious loop perpetuated by ignoring that we had a system which worked for a very long period of time before this whole steam fiasco.

I'm not against paid mods as much as I'm against paid mods that mod authors couldn't possibly hope to support enough to justify the price tag. We all know that singular mod authors can't support the mods properly and that's fine, we're talking about potentially tens of thousands of users vs one poor guy trying to deal with all the bug reports and whatnot. But without the proper support it's not right to sell your product and we can see this in the quality of the paid mods, most of them were horrific quality with only a very select few being of good quality.

I think that you should sit down and consider all the moving pieces and chronological order of events in order to form a reasonable opinion.

I personally am in favor of a more agressive approach to donations, I really don't mind if there's a big fat "donation" button at the top of the description, blinking away in obnoxious seizure-enducing strobe effects because there's no implied warranty involved (which is a legal thing which modders would be subjecting themselves to and thus opening a can of legal worms).

Uranium - 235 wrote: "The trouble is the users out number the authors by such an incredible ratio that we have no voice, no one is able to speak up for any of us against a tidal wave of entitlement like what we just witnessed this weekend.

If you want to *really* feel disgusted go over to reddit and read all the circle jerking "we won" nonsense."

The only entitlement here is coming from you. Mod-makers are volunteers. They have ALWAYS been volunteers. Volunteering by definition means you shouldn't expect fiscal rewards for your work. Nothing about this relationship changed when you personally decided to make mods... unless you somehow feel that YOUR mods are worth more than those made by people whose creations predate yours?

You people knew the score when you started making mods. If you weren't okay with working without payment, then you shouldn't have made mods.

The fact that you're calling mod-users 'entitled'... man, maybe it's for the best that a lot of you are leaving. Good to see everyone show their true colors here. Nobody is making you make mods. If you think we OWE you for your work, then you are in the wrong business. I don't OWE you anything any more than the homeless OWE the people who volunteer to work at a soup kitchen.

ChizFoShiz wrote: @icanhazmodspls Never said anything about you not having rights as a consumer, for some of you I'm sure it IS a genuine concern over refund policies and content policing, but for the majority opinion it only takes a 30 second scan down any other outlet of discussion for this game to see the popular opinion is that mods and modders aren't worth it.

I've said this elsewhere but I'll say it again here, the system could have been changed based on feedback, refund policies can be altered, revenue distribution can be renegotiated, content policing can be provided and proven over time.

Lastly, of course I can't guarantee a plugin will work in tandem with any other plugins you want to run, no more so than Bethesda can guarantee your game will run once you throw 150 mods into it.

With a refund policy that could potentially have been changed to an acceptable system in your eyes though, would it not be a platform worth having?

diyeath wrote: @ ChizFoShiz now you need to consider implied warrany as it's a legal term which is applied when you charge money for a product.

icanhazmodspls wrote: @ChizFoShiz

I agree with you that paid mods have the potential to improve quality and are therefore worth a shot. However i have very little trust in Valve to set this up. Their vision of a digital marketplace is very libertarian and chaotic IMO.

Futhermore Valve's trackrecord regarding regulation isn't exactly good, for example Greenlight and broken games entering the store.

You do have a point that perhaps mod authors aren't responsible for a guarantee that mods are compatible with each other.

I think a solution would be a model similar to TF2 and CS. For example using polling Valve and or Bethesda can get a sense which mods are popular and or used together in the community. They can then get together with those authors to produce and release a separate DLC similar to Dragonborn or Dawnguard. The Pro's are IMO:

-sharing of resources between authors continues.
-proper Q & A resulting in consumer confidence and compatibility with other mods.
-since it's released as a separate game i have more options of buying it outside of steam/workshop.
-better pricing (release price for say 15 euros) and better bang for buck.
-better career opportunities for authors.

A concrete example: SkyRe+Wyrmtooth+Immersive Armors+"Random House Mod".

Anyway just some thoughts..

@Uranium-235

It's awfully presumptuous of you to tell mod-makers what they are. Especially from someone who isn't even a modder.

[diyeath]

In response to post #24751059. #24751189 is also a reply to the same post.

Xenoshi wrote:

calyps wrote: It's not the community. It's humanity. Video games are popular so they draw a broad cross section and with that come trolls and entitled asshats. I agree, they suck and can really make one question the act of sharing. But the modding community isn't unique in having its share of shitheads.

As I stated, that's the minority.

I'm going to make a pretend real life example

Say a group of people known as the Klukors want to share candy with the world and according to their ethnic beliefs they need to share candy with at least 1 person a day.

Now say there's a group of klukors who are upset that some people don't eat candy so they go on a hate campaign, insulting everyone for not eating candy and declaring them unfit to be human.

Are all klukors crazy, hate-filled people? No. The ones who are spreading hate are hate-filled. The vast majority are just normal people.

See where I'm coming from? I'm trying to be really nice about this but what you're saying is prejudice based on the actions of a minority group. Since when is that acceptible? This isn't the dark ages, we're supposed to be more enlightened than that. Edited April 28, 2015 by diyeath

[calyps]

In response to post #24751059. #24751149 is also a reply to the same post.

Xenoshi wrote:

diyeath wrote: As I stated, that's the minority.

It's not the community. It's humanity. Video games are popular so they draw a broad cross section and with that come trolls and entitled asshats. I agree, they suck and can really make one question the act of sharing. But the modding community isn't unique in having its share of shitheads.

[SeinSchatten01]

In response to post #24738304. #24738404, #24738464, #24738479, #24738524, #24738604, #24738659, #24738679, #24738694, #24738739, #24738779, #24738799, #24738804, #24738919, #24738944, #24738974, #24739104, #24739184, #24739199, #24739204, #24739289, #24739329, #24739359, #24739394, #24739409, #24739474, #24739514, #24739544, #24739564, #24739609, #24739619, #24739639, #24739689, #24739759, #24739784, #24739884, #24739949, #24739999, #24740019, #24740029, #24740039, #24740124, #24740139, #24740174, #24740184, #24740199, #24740234, #24740349, #24740469, #24740494, #24740509, #24740569, #24740579, #24740584, #24740694, #24740734, #24740789, #24740809, #24740814, #24740834, #24740844, #24740859, #24740899, #24740939, #24740959, #24741039, #24741074, #24741079, #24741154, #24741159, #24741164, #24741289, #24741369, #24741419, #24741429, #24741444, #24741449, #24741529, #24741644, #24741674, #24741699, #24741714, #24741744, #24741754, #24741764, #24741784, #24741804, #24741884, #24741959, #24742024, #24742104, #24742119, #24742154, #24742169, #24742194, #24742314, #24742444, #24742464, #24742489, #24742509, #24742524, #24742564, #24742579, #24742634, #24742744, #24742799, #24742804, #24742964, #24743039, #24743319, #24743439, #24743614, #24743699, #24743779, #24743799, #24743809, #24743899, #24743969, #24744239, #24744704, #24746029, #24747899, #24749729, #24750024, #24751049 are all replies on the same post.

foster xbl wrote:

phantompally76 wrote: It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage. If a modder is really skilled, and wants to get paid for his or her work, then they should get a job at a game company.

Korodic wrote: You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding.

foster xbl wrote: because...... I guess

OiramX5 wrote: I dont think compensated is a word valid to a almost slavery job. 25 % is just ridiculous.

Korodic wrote: To be honest I've never felt more betrayed by the community. Reading all of these comments... people who shouted "MODS SHOULD BE FREE" to the point where I lost an *option* as a mod creator in what I can and can't do with my work - MY TIME.

The entitlement users have was literally so obvious I could vomit. It's really disappointing.

foster xbl wrote: where as 0% is more than fair?

sunshinenbrick wrote: I just donated to someone, I felt I wanted to. They have a mod I have not yet played (looks good though) but I was never asked to do it.

Korodic wrote: I 100% agree the price split was not fair, but that could have been worked on.

The arguement to remove paid mods wasn't the price split so much as it was people crying "but the spirit of modding" or "it's always been free why change now" as if the sky was falling and all mods would cost $.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work? Modding is in that same copyright-limbo state where the company looks the other way as long as people aren't trying to make a profit off of their intellectual property. Bethesda made the game and the tool you use to make the mods, and without the game those mods would be useless. Just because you enjoy doing something doesn't necessary mean you have a right to get paid for it. The enjoyment of creating mods is what motivates most people, and if you REALLY want to make a profit off of your "work", then the modding scene is not for you.

foster xbl wrote: "You can be passionate & compensated... why can't it be both?

Maybe I don't want a job at a game company. Maybe I'm content doing what I like... modding"

I could not agree more, I feel the exact same way, before I've even had time to decide weather or not I wanted to proceed with developing a paid mod, the decision was made for me.

digitaltrucker wrote: You haven't "lost an option". You have the same options you always had before now. What you've gained is an awareness of a problem that may now be addressed in a thoughtful, reasoned manner.

Korodic wrote: sunshinenbrick, it's nice that you donated to someone. Me personally, I've only ever received 1 donation despite 1000+ endorsements.

By no means did I get into modding for the $, but I am just proving the point that donations systems earnings don't equal the time you put in. I have 2,000 hours logged on the creation kit. The option to host paid mods could have really made a difference to someone like me. By no means would every mod cost $ either, but the larger ones could.

We could have tried to renegotiate the price split, but now the system is gone forever.

foster xbl wrote: "Should writers of fan fiction be able to sell their work"

This is a laughable point, the owners of said ip in this case were ok with the idea.
And furthermore, IMO if other 3rd parties are allowed to freely profit directly from their writings, then yes they should

Korodic wrote: How did mod authors not lose an option? Before we had a paid system, now we have none. That is definitely an option out the window.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think part of the problem has been the lack of prominence of the Donate button. This has had to be done on purpose I gather as this is the legal grey area Nexus has been dancing for a while now.

Before this all happened of course :P

EDIT: This is why we should perhaps try view this as paying for modding, not necessarily for mods...

rickerhk wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love"
@Vesuvius1745
You and others keep repeating that. But it doesn't look like you have any mods posted here. Why would you think that 'labor of love' would mean you never want to make money from it?

phantompally76 wrote: Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods.

No matter how hard you work on a mod, no matter how many thousands of hours you put into it, no matter how strongly you feel about its monetization.......

I don't owe you anything.

And you don't owe me anything.

That's the author/user relationship we have enjoyed until people like you got greedy.

Korodic wrote: Except there was no legal grey area now, we were given full permission, but the way people reacted destroyed any chance of that. Exactly in the way OP stated. You may be okay with a donate button, but that's you.

I wanted the paid option should I feel something I created deserved it.

I feel like people just shoved their beliefs down my throats and I lost rights as a mod author in the process. >.>

sunshinenbrick wrote: @Korodic

But you are a fully fledged modder I gather and I commend you for it.

The problem with the particular model that was tested on us over weekend was that it made modding very expensive for new modders who maybe using completely new sdk and game engines.

foster xbl wrote: That's actually probably not the case....
let's be honest, who will pay money for something free?
Granted there are exceptions, but in truth they are exceptions.

Before this happened, my mods totaling 15,565 endorsments, have received one donation.
Think about this, out of the hundreds of thousands of downloads, 15,000 cared enough to show a sign of thanks, of those 15,000.... 1 person felt it was worth showing more.
Donations are great, and in fact far more valuable ( to me ) than a paid price, (because it wasn't required) but overall a donation system will not be widely used.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: For those of you who thought you could get rich off of peddling your amateur mods on Valve, I have bad news for you: you would have never seen a cent. Your "payment" would have been in store credit. Even the most popular mods on the Nexus, minutes after being put on Valve, were on various torrent sites. The bottom line is people won't pay for mods in significant enough numbers to make it worthwhile.

You'll have better luck putting mods on the Nexus along with the donation button. If you get enough downloads, and people like your mod, you'll make much more than any store credit on valve (You get about 95% of the donation compared to 25% of the price on valve paid in store credit).

Personally, I think if your motivation is to make money, your mods probably will be rather shitty. The best mods are those done by people whose ONLY motivation is the joy of doing it. If you insist on getting paid, then again, you should do something else as the modding scene is not /that/.

flyingtiger16 wrote: @Korodic

IN your file list it only shows one mod, which mods exactly have thousands of people up-voted? I'm not trying to attack you here merely curious as to your modding experience...I for one have none and I appreciate the work of the community.

Korodic wrote: I've hidden all of my mods for the time being. I won't be coming back to the nexus for a long time (if ever) or until I feel otherwise. Too many people (who have never even made a single mod) feel entitled to the mods that we mod authors make.

It's ridiculous. I don't owe any of you anything, especially when all of the stuff I've provided up until this point is completely free. We should be supported & celebrated. Instead we were called greedy and told to "go get a real job."

People should have fought to get us a better price split instead of fighting the idea of paid mods themselves.

Whatever, guess I will go invest my time elsewhere. Any work I make from now on will be private.

Bye I guess.

-nlm (-.-) mln-

foster xbl wrote: "Your sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than that of mod users who don't feel obligated to pay for mods."

And no-one ever had to pay. It was a choice, do you have to buy every DLC for every game?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and to the guy who made the backhanded insult about me not having any mods up--I haven't modded for Skyrim, but I have modded for years on Morrowind and other games. But none of that matters because even non-modders are allowed to have an opinion on this for obvious reasons.

sovs wrote: Why can't we have a optionable subscription based model on Nexus added to the premium services ?

Then you can truly see who has donated and not, the majority will never donate a dime as it stands now.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Isn't this about a sense of morality, which is what a community brings? Did people not see how quickly mods were ripped off and then flooded into piratebay? How has this been minimised in the past? By people looking out for each other and respecting each others work. I know it may not be a perfect system, and this weekend has shown there are things we can learn from, but it is probably one of the most creative and respectful gaming communities in the world.

foster xbl wrote: It doesn't matter how many mods he has made, the point is his point of view should've mattered.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Korodic, you're a hypocrite, and I'll explain why: I will wager dollars to donuts you have used other people's FREE mods. You probably also dissected those mods to teach yourself how to mod, and you've also probably "borrowed" code or other resources from other people's work. That is the nature of open source. And now you want to take your marbles and go home because you can't peddle stuff on Valve that you only could have created by standing on the shoulders of others. Well don't let the door hit your ass on the way out (and you might also want to delete every free mod you are using as well).

rickerhk wrote: @phantompally76
So you are saying my sense of entitlement is 1000x more alarming than yours?
I have thousands of hours making mods.
@phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
Never mind. I don't know why I'm wasting my time on trolls. Carry on.

flyingtiger16 wrote: As a person who has admittedly been more excited to try out the mod rather then support the author post download, I feel I owe the modding community an apology. A fair question though, If a financially challenged individual enjoys the hard work and labors of love that go into making his gaming experience that much more rich (to the point where bethesda games are only purchased because of the great modding community). Should he be excluded from that community because tat person cannot afford to pay 2.99 for the over 150+ mods they have on an average load list?

flyingtiger16 wrote: @ foster

Your one hundred percent correct, I was over zealous and jumped the gun a bit there. unfortunately everyone who weighs in on this matter declares themselves a modder.

@ Korodic

apologies

phantompally76 wrote: Here's another thought.

If you want to get more donations for your mods, perhaps you need to step up your game and actually make mods that are worth donating for.

I appreciate your talent. But I'm not paying for an apple retexture, or an unsupported mod full of bugs, or a mod that's still in development, or a mod that overreaches the parameters of the game engine and corrupts saves with bloat.

And I'm certainly not paying for mods from self-entitled whiners who somehow think I owe them a living. I owe you nothing. And you know what? I don't have to use your mods even if they're free, either.

so get. off. your. high. horse.

foster xbl wrote: Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas

None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theres

WarfighterShaun wrote: You could argue it is equally as greedy for people wanting these mods always for free. In fact it is not even equal. The big mods like Isoku's, Chesko's and the like still had their current versions on the nexus for free which were awesome mods, now just because they then released new "paid" versions in which they hoped to get some investment from it. Maybe they thought it would allow them to mod for a living, allowing them to make bigger better mods in the future. Truth of the matter is they have already given a lot to the community and thus they are way less greedy than the lot of you who are accusing them of being so and outright saying you will not support the monetization of quality mods.

Simply put if people do not want to pay for mods that is fine, do not get the paid versions, however then trying to make the authors look bad just because their new version is not free is downright stupid and even more greedy.

Phantompally you are right in that with free mods, modders don't owe you anything however I would say users owe the modder appreciation for even the fact they chose to share it even if you don't like it.

That is my take on it, hate me if you will.

Smith099 wrote: The modders getting "profits" from their work on the Steam Workshop were never going to be able to make a real living off of this.

From everything I heard on various sites about the pay system it worked as follows:
Modder sets price for mod.
Valve gets 30% of money from each sale. (Minus 1%-5% that go to "Service Providers." )
ZeniMaxMedia/BethSoft gets remaining 70% and cuts modder 25% of that.
Modder sees money only after their cut reaches $100.

A part time job at the local burger joint is going to pay more in a week than any modder was going to see from any of those mods in two months.

This was NOT a way to help modders make a profit, this was a way to help Valve and BethSoft make a profit. And THAT is the problem.

Smith099 wrote: @rickerhk
And maybe you should check sites like Oblivion Nexus and Morrowind Nexus, not just Skyrim Nexus.

foster xbl wrote: @WarfighterShaun
exactly, these guys gave big time, and were ripped to pieces by the very community they gave so much to

jet4571 wrote: So I get shafted when parts of the 300 or so models in my building kit resource gets put up in a house mod on Steam and I see no money from the sale. Is that fair? Or I sell the kit and they make a hundred houses in separate mods and make bank off each one while I made enough to buy a beer. Is that fair? Just so you can make indentured servant wages even though it is plain and simply a bad deal for the whole community. Yeah I guess calling Valve and Bethesda out on their bull is a mistake if you do not care about everyone else.

foster xbl wrote: @jet4571
I can see your point as a resource author, but tell me this, didn't you make said resources
for others to use?

jfisha wrote: Korodic,

Holy hell, man. Did the nails hurt when you were hanging on the cross?

Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.

I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.

Calm down, man, for the love of God

phantompally76 wrote: "Nock to Tip
True Bound armors
Knocked up
Fat Bastards
Fully animated meals and potions
Baby Mommas

None of these are apple retextures, and if they're not worth your time
feel free to skip, but you should not be allowed to tell others it's not worth theres"

I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.

But they're absolutely NOT worth my money.

I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings. I fully realize you think you're a unique snowflake and that you deserve recognition. But you're confusing recognition with monetary compensation. You have recognition. That's all you're getting from me.

And if that isn't good enough for you....to quote Benjamin Franklin......"Tough".

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @War Chesko and the others created those mods without expecting to get paid for them. Same with Foster. If the money thing is such a problem, why did they create those mods and offer them on the Nexus if they knew they wouldn't get paid for them? People have been creating great mods for years without any monetary incentive.

But you know what? Modders DO get paid. They get paid in the form of all the other mods in the modding community. These modders have enjoyed mods others have put up for free, and in many cases were inspired by them to mod themselves, or to dissect those mods to learn, and even "borrow" code or resources from other people's work. And this is all fine. Sharing is what happens when you have an "open source" community.

But frankly, modders now whining about how they aren't getting paid reeks of greed and selfishness--especially since they themselves have benefited as much as everyone else from the body of work that has been introduced into the community for free.

Brasscatcher wrote: I'll keep saying it, as long as this is the part you all want to cling to. Modding: "Entitled", " deserves", "work" none of these terms apply. Nobody here is entitled to diddly. That goes for content creators as well as just users. Nobody deserves anything, except to have a place in the community where they can play without being abused. This isn't "work" because nobody hired you. You want a paycheck? Get a job. You want modeling/voice acting/scripting/whatever to be your job? Take your portfolio and shop it to devs. license an engine and make a game. Is modding too much effort or occupying too much time that it's cutting in to your lifestyle? STOP. That's unhealthy. If you go, we'll miss you, but we'll survive. There will be more creators, more users coming up behind you who could use the sunshine made in your absence to potentially flourish. If they too outgrow the modding scene, they'll be missed too, and so on.

Entitlement is such a childish, disgusting concept. No wonder it was easy for bethsoft and valve to fleece you people! Yeesh!

OiramX5 wrote: Kodoric and Foster Xbl

I understand your point of view, but I really dont agree in slavery labor for Bethesda and Valve. You and other modders just will turn in developers of DLC's of low costs to them, dont you see that?

You have spent hundreds of hours modding, but answer me this, you was waiting money for that? Or just having fun making mods?

A lot of modders do AWESOME mods and should receive some money of that, I agree, but paid mods system is never gonna work (For a lot of reasons), we just see that this last days, we lost much (Modders and mods, like yours, and was really good mods).

I think is for the best this, will spare much trouble and headache for everyone, and I really dont wanna risk another "Horse Armor" incident.

uglykidcid wrote: Foster I agree with you. If you listen to both Chesko and Isoku there is a barrier between modding as a hobby and modding at the next level. Time is money and one can only put so much time into any project without losing money. Many modders are already at the point of quitting because they have gone as far as they will go for a hobbie. The community's premature overreaction has pushed many good modders away. As you say it's a wake up call. I spend a good 40 hours a week modding and have been modding for a decade but I share very little because to be honest the aggravation of support is not worth my time.

foster xbl wrote: No mod i released was ever created with money in mind, period this is true.
which is also why I stated my mods would remain free here, and on steam too.
However I was considering the possibility of adding new mods to the workshop which were intended as pay mods from the get go. Once the option was available, how is it not my right to purse it if choose?

BlueCorvid wrote: "Modding has always been a labor of love--not a way to put a Porsche in the garage."

You think modders are after a PORSCHE? You know what people are after when they start asking people to pay for work they've done? Yeah, sometimes they want help making a big purchase -- a new tablet or a new PC, maybe a new game they really want but aren't really comfortable spending the money on -- but usually they just want to buy a burger, or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.

Furthermore: I keep seeing things like, "If modders charge money for their mods, then players with no money won't be able to use those mods!" Do you think players are the only ones with no money? I don't know where you live, but it's gotten pretty tough around here the last few years. If you can't afford things, I get that. Man, I GET it. I've got pennies in my checking account. I get it. Here's the thing though: we are not entitled to free stuff, and content creators ARE entitled to ASK FOR compensation for their work.

There will always, ALWAYS, be wonderful people who make free stuff for the good of the community -- people with the means and passion to say, "No, it's fine, I don't need anything back." These acts are noble and charitable, and as a person who can't afford to buy content, I appreciate it with everything I have.

While I wasn't particularly happy with the way Bethesda et al sprang this on the community and the way it was implemented, I think the reactions of community members speak rather more volumes more about THEIR greed than that of either Bethesda or modders. In this world we live in, where money is quite literally life, you cannot with good conscience say that people don't deserve to be compensated for their time or their intellectual property.

There is this weird misconception going on that it's "modder who does it for the love of the game and would never take compensation just on principle" versus "modder who doesn't love anything but really wants to get rich and is holding his modding skills hostage." The truth is really more like "modder who loves the game" versus "modder who also loves the game, but needs gas money." For that matter, Bethesda itself is not some giant faceless behemoth just devouring cash like a woodchipper -- it has workers and game developers that all need to be paid -- again, mostly just people who just want to be able to buy a burger or a beer, or put a tank of gas in their car, or feed their cat.

I am a person of little means, to be honest. I don't want to pay for mods. I can't afford to pay for mods. But I am also a content creator -- not a modder, obviously, but an artist -- and the little money I have in my bank account is due entirely to people who were willing to pay me for my services. That money feeds my cat, it bought my mother a birthday gift, sometimes it buys me a burger.

When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve.

Should CREATING or CONSUMING content be the luxury? Those are the only options.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @OiramX5

This is so true, for many of us who are seriously into our hobbies this is about the future of modding (with Bethesda games at least) and the dicey area of their developers free loading their work on to the modding community, For a fraction of the cost. Then when people complain things don't work they have a scapegoat.

I want as much of the money I pay for a mod to go to the person/s who created it.

foster xbl wrote: "I never said they weren't worth my time, or anyone else's.

But they're absolutely NOT worth my money."

this says it all.

WarfighterShaun wrote: Foster it is completely your right. It does not make you look any less noble or whatever unless of course it happened to be buggy and you refused to support it but I am pretty sure you would not do that :P.

foster xbl wrote: Edit: double post-sorry

fftfan wrote: @jfisha
"Paid mod scene is not going away. I have a feeling it's only been delayed until the next Bethesda game comes out. No one is telling you you have to give your mods away for free. You can: 1. Not make any mods or 2. Host them on your own web page and charge for them.

I don't like the idea of paid mods, but I could care less if any modders went to steam. I planned on showing my disapproval basically only by not buying mods on steam.

Calm down, man, for the love of God"

I hope not, though I think it's a good sign they were so fast to remove the system. And that they even refunded everybody who bought mods from it. Bethesda/Valve could easily have just waited a number of months before considering removing the Paid option and/or not refunded anyone.

IF they do actually bring it back for TES VI/FO4, I simply won't be buying the game. I oppose micro-transactions on principle. I'm a huge fan of Elder Scrolls & Fallout but I was and still am willing to say goodbye to both if the Paid Workshop returns.

Shadow_Dragyn wrote: Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything.

OiramX5 wrote: Foster

Well, from where I standing, you removed your content of nexus (Steam I really dont like much) so is contradictory what you are saying about keep them here.

I agree, you have the right of want that (You really want that 25% dont ya?), and I also have the right of disagree with that kind business, we are democratic creatures (Or least try most of time) and if the major part of community (even modders) dont agree with that so be it, is the will of majority.

I recognize your work (Really like your mods, sad you remove they), agree about some modders should receive for the AWESOME work, but unfortunately the system of paid mods never gonna work. Is better that way.

Thaiauxn wrote: @phantompally76, Vesuvius1745
RickerHK has put more of his life hours into making my mod than anyone else. We're talking YEARS; and he offered his help out out of the blue one day with no strings attached. I tried to pay him once. He told me to keep my money, and did it anyway, and at a quality that can't be beat. Do you know what it takes to make a sacrifice like that? What kind of dedication it shows? Dude has put his free time and health on the line for us since 2012. I've never met him, but I'd die for that guy.

RickerHK is irreplaceable to me. I can't say the same for you. You have a right to post on these forum. I have the right to make you think twice about coming back.

Don't cross my people.

phantompally76 wrote: Yes, it does. It may have sailed WAY over your head, but it does.

Bottom line, you're blocked, and I'll never download, test, endorse, or even SEE any of your mods ever again.

We done?

foster xbl wrote: "Yeah, I'm certainly done releasing mods. This is ridiculous.
I don't know if I'll even remove the ones I already have out or not... Over the course of a single week, the community I once loved became something I despise more than anything. "


I do wonder how may other authors, myself included have removed, (or in my case hidden their mods, until they make a final decision) because of this backlash

Korodic wrote: jfisha haha, I hope it can one day come back. Hopefully better explained, fair %, and in a more planned way. I'm not dying over here. I'm currently in the process of a new and improved arena mod. I'm just debating whether or not I feel like sharing. You can't tell me you don't see it (the sense of entitlement) in these comment threads?

On Facebook people were far less civil and far worse.

Vesuvius1745 - Thank you for pointing out what a hypocrite I am (without any evidence to your claim).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: "When people refuse to pay content creators, content creators who can't afford to work for free either stop creating content or starve."

Modders have been modding for over a decade without getting paid a single cent. There are some wonderful, professional mods that have been given to the community for free (Wyrmstooth, Perkus etc.) I used to mod for Morrowind. Modders do it as a hobby, in our free time, like painting, or planting award-winning roses, or *insert hobby here*. If what you said was correct, this site would never have existed.

But it does. Modders will come and go for whatever reasons, but there will always be new modders to take their places, and there will always be people who have used and enjoyed mods from the community who are willing to give something back to that same community in the form of their own creations. That is the nature of this. I made some decent mods back in the day, but I don't think of it as giving my stuff away for free--I have downloaded and enjoyed mods other people have uploaded. This is the thing some people just can't comprehend about an "open source" community like the modding scene.

MoonSpot wrote: After reading bethesda's blog and seeing the numbers that they posted, I'm feeling like an even bigger pile of poo than I did before.
I hope that they try again on much better footing. They said that they're flexible with their share based on the numbers and community. So I'm more inclined to think of this a step one, rather than square one.
If the cuts and prices can get to a point that this worldwide and diverse community can shoulder while remaining inclusive, then I'm all for it. Like the idea, did not at all care for how it was done...thus far, on the steam workshop.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:

By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite.

foster xbl wrote: @OiramX5

My mods have not been removed, they were hidden until I think on the matter some more.

Ventry wrote: @foster xbl

Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?

If you are modding for the money then you have made an error in judgement.

Modding was humming along just swimmingly until money was introduced.
Now look where we are.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, and Korodic, if you you donate $1.99 to every author of every mod you are using in your Skyrim game right now, I will apologize for calling you a hypocrite.

foster xbl wrote: "@Korodic I thought it was clear, but let me spell it out for you:

By whining about not being able to sell your mods when you have used the free mods of other people for years (and probably used the work of others in one way or another for your own mods), makes you a hypocrite."


Another foolish point of view..... by this reasoning anyone who writes a book and sells it is a hypocrite for "standing on the shoulders' of the person to taught them to read, right?

Korodic wrote: @OiramX5 I don't agree with the current system and would not have used it in its current state. I only wanted it to be adjusted. But that's only half of the problem.

The other half is the people trying to deny us an option OFFICIALLY given to us because they feel modding should be free (regardless of what anyone else may think). This ideology is even present within this thread.

jet4571 wrote: @foster xbl
For free non paid mods. I did not make them so somebody could make a profit. If I made them so someone could make a profit they would be on TurboSquid with the rest of my models I am selling.

I made them so people can make houses that are not the exact same as any other farmhouse and furnish them with a complete set of furniture. To give away for free so players can have a new and unique home.

Another reason they are here and not at TurboSquid is so I can get some pleasure seeing them used and how they are used.

foster xbl wrote: "Doesn't what happened give you a clear indication of what the public are willing/not willing to accept in regards to modding?"

the same things were said from day one (and still are) of DLC, and like it
or not, Dlc has been fully accepted and become the new norm.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster "My mods have been removed"

It is your right to take your marbles and run home, but if you would like to prove this isn't just a temper tantrum, and you want to stand by your convictions, then you should delete every free mod you have, and every resource you have benefited from which was provided to the community for free (such as SKSE, ENB etc.).

jfisha wrote: Why are people making this a mod user vs. mod author fight? What about all the mod authors of very popular mods who flat out refuse to take money? Where do these men and women fit into your idea of why paid modding might not be a great idea?

Korodic wrote: @Vesuvius1745

What exactly are you trying to prove? Nothing you are saying makes any sense nor could it ever since you don't know me nor what went into making my mods or how I did it.

If I used someone else's mod within my own I received consent. I also did not donate $2 to every single author either. Why should I have to? Did you? I gave proper credit where it was do.

I never stated I would sell the mods where I included someone else's work either. So there is nothing hypocritical here. Just because I wouldn't mind having paid mods doesn't mean I don't like free stuff or have used it. If those authors wanted to charge $ I'd be okay with that, I may even buy it because I liked it.

I want paid mods to be an option for me in the future whether you like it or not. "Modders may come and go" is a poor excuse to try to take away their RIGHT given to them by Bethesda.

WarfighterShaun wrote: And those who want to keep mods free can do. If I ever make mods they will most likely be available to the public for free. However I do not see why paid mods cannot co exist as long as the proper quality control and "rights" of what is used in said mod are in place first. It is not immoral or anything to release something for money.

Sepherose wrote: I agree with the sentiment that mods are a labor of love, and I have mods up on a few of the Nexus sites. I feel that a straight up gouge like Valve/Bethesda were doing was horribly thought out. I feel that yes, mods should always be free, but there should have always been the option to donate to a mod author.

Sure, down the line maybe they can handle this in a more tactful way. Here's one suggestion on it: Give thorough, organized tutorials on every aspect on their next mod SDK for whatever game they release next, to avoid the overly competitive attitude that could arise from authors that figure something out before everyone else, leading to them not being willing to help others. That is a pretty common practice whenever you mix money in with something, mitigating that possibility would be a great first step

Second, they would give the modders 50%, rather than 25%. The 25% figure was laughable.

Personally? I'm not going to monetize any of my mods. Open up the possibility to donate in some fashion? Sure. Hide my stuff behind a paywall no matter how cheap? Nope, not happening.

foster xbl wrote: you've misread my post first of all, try again

second I don't see your point at all, we're not having this talk over free mods, are we?
third, I can't do that, because I don't currently have any mods I play with.....see the majority of my time in skyrim is spent creating mods, not playing it.

700 hours Skyrim
1500+ hours creation kit

phantompally76 wrote: Do you want a cookie?

NO ONE made you spend that much time playing a game. NO ONE.

You are NOT entitled to money just because you sit in front of a computer altering values in Bethesda's Creation Kit all day.

Am I getting through to you at all?

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."

Amen! Modding is an altruistic endeavor, not self-enrichment.

Ventry wrote: @foster

and I applaud you.

do it for love or not at all.
This is how it was before "filthy lucre" was introduced.

Can you see the damage it did?

WarfighterShaun wrote: Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Is it not part of the issue that it is the forcing of money sucking financial structures that people are so aggressive with each other? The money we have is devaluing by the second and yet we have a net of more money sucking financial structures being thrown upon us.

Would you support a paywall system here on the Nexus? The only reason there cannot be one is because Bethesda forbids it and they would be after the lot of us like a pack of wolves. Perhaps people forgot that the moment you uploaded mods to Steam you ceased any IP copyright you had over them.

This is what I was fighting for the past couple of days. What is to say further down the line User Generated Content providers would not be hit by hidden costs?

fgambler wrote: Well who's a modder and/or grown person should expect all this mess. It's the internet after all. It's a mean and volatile place.

foster xbl wrote: @phantompally76

you got through to me with your very first post trust me

now let me try one last time to get through to you.

The past is not up for debate, I chose to spend that time providing users (such as yourself) with free, content, which I then supported for months after its release. None of this is my problem, I knew there was no money in it, and accepted this fully.
We are talking about now.....with the owners of this IP deciding they would allow content for profit to be available from this point on. At this point I and every author have every right to pursue this option. But the very community we have given to freely and willing, stood up and firm and proudly said

File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods
YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods
Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods
Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods

Mod authors.....um, no you're NOT allowed to profit from your work.

OiramX5 wrote: Foster

Think fondly about return your mods, they are good ;)

Kodoric

Yeah, they should revised really carefully, maybe could work a next time? Or dont, who knows, this is delicate matter (Money), so always gonna be hard to make a deal with community.

But, for you two, dont take wrong what I gonna say, but hidden your files, you are doing that just because you are angry about this, but, if you two really make that mods with no intention of receive any money so this is just childish act (Not everyone is against you, some support the idea of help modders, but was badly executed by valve and bethesda). The correct is discontinued the updates of mods and dont produce anymore. But is yours mods, you have to do what think is right.

phantompally76 wrote: "Of course the people who release paid mods are not entitled to your money based on something they chose to do. But likewise you are not entitled to their mods. "

I agree 100%.

I will only add, once again, that Skyrim won Game of the Year on three different platforms without mods at all, and that mods are greatly appreciated, but not required.

Sithalos wrote: "It will cull the greedy from the passionate, and you know what? That's just fine with me."

Amen.

Lateraliss wrote: I find it really strange that not once in the several years that I've been a part of the modding community have I ever seen anyone vocally declare that they want to be compensated for their work on modding. Steam creates a failed paid workshop, and now some modders say they just can't afford to mod anymore, and that they might just stop since they can't get paid. Well I'm sorry to hear that, sometimes real life gets in the way of a hobby, and there's no choice but to stop doing that hobby.

Most likely people will be sad to see you go, but there will be other mod creators who will still enjoy creating mods for the sake of the enjoyment of it to take up the slack. The community will continue on as it has for a long time.

WarfighterShaun wrote: I guess because the payment was and still is the appreciation they get from the community and also that until now unless being donated to could not actually ask for money for a mod unless the dev's of the game say they can.

jfisha wrote: Foster

File distribution sites, you're allowed to profit from mods

True, but how much has Nexus charged you to host your mods? I'm guessing 0 dollars? There's a significant amount of money that goes into making sure your mods have the ability to be downloaded by millions without any cost to the mod author.

YouTube authors, you're allowed to profit from mods

This is also true, but that profit doesn't come from the user of the content.

Bethesda, you're allowed to profit from mods

Ummm... they made the game?


Valve, you're allowed to profit from mods

Much like my first point, there's a significant amount of upkeep and money that comes to making sure your file can be downloaded by millions with 0 cost to you.

Even after this, I want to remind you, that I don't care if you make money off your mods. A lot of us don't. We have other concerns then just the little amount you'll make off your mods. For a lot of people, their main concern is the little amount you'll make off your mods. :P

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The two modders in this discussion aren't getting it: both of you have benefited from free mods that have been provided to the community for free. Both of you have benefited from resources that have been generously given to the community for free (SKSE, ENB--these resources created by actual programmers who spent WAY more time and skill on these third-party utilities than is required for a mere game mod). Both of you have benefited from Dark0ne running this site, and hosting those mods you have downloaded, and the work of countless others. And neither of you would have been able to create any mods at all if it weren't for all the others mentioned here, and those before you who have given their time and effort to the community for free.

So now you want to stand on the shoulders of all these people who have contributed their time and skill for free, and make a profit off of that. You don't seem to understand why that is a problem, so let me put it another way:

Would you still be playing Skyrim if it weren't for mods? Most people I know would have quit a long time ago. Now ask yourself this: would you have paid $1.99 for every mod you have ever used? For some people that number can get into the hundreds. For most people, that answer is no. Most gamers can't afford $60 for a game, $40 for the expansions, and then $500 for mods. We rely on our community to provide content for EACH OTHER to keep the game alive and interesting. If the brilliant programmer who does the ENB development decided to charge $49.99 for it (and it totally would be worth it for all the work he has put into it), the authors of SKSE wanted $19.99 (again, they totally deserve that and more), and all the mods and everything else, most people wouldn't be able to afford it, and it would KILL the modding scene.

If creating mods takes up so much of your time and effort, then stop. You don't have to do it. It is appreciated, but if you want to make a profit, this is not the scene for you.

Lateraliss wrote: So these modders, who had no hope of ever getting paid for their work continued on regardless? Apparently they modded for other reasons than the hope of making money off of it. Suddenly the chance to get paid temporarily shows up and disappears, and now they've lost the passion for modding. Apparently the possible prospect of money, and then losing that prospect was stronger than their enjoyment from modding if this is the point in which they decide they no longer want to mod.

foster xbl wrote: @jfisha

I fully understand the points you made
and I actually stated all of this elsewhere days ago,
these people are absolutely entitled to their profits

anonownsyou wrote: I'll just repost this because it warrants repeating.

No rational, sane, intelligent and critically-thinking person could justify being 'against paid mods altogether' without admitting flat-out that they believe modders don't deserve to be paid for their hard work.

Dark0ne isn't among the legions of cretins coming out of the woodwork demonizing hard-working people for trying to get a little something back. Anything they do manage to make (not just considering modder's sad 25) won't even approach the level of effort and commitment many of them have put into scripting, texturing, voice acting, writing, building and rebuilding, the 3am hotfixes for impatient crybabies, and on and on their work for you goes. Yet here the nay-sayers stand screaming "I DESERVE FREE STUFF, AND I EXPECT YOU TO PRODUCE IT WITHOUT COMPLAINT".

The notion that mods (many of which have development hours in the 1000+ area and smack of professional quality) are of less value than other pieces of work that nobody questions paying for, simply by virtue of them being mods, is totally and utterly asinine, and despicably disrespectful to the mod authors that produce them.

Saying you're against paid mods in principle is equivalent to saying to modders "you don't deserve compensation for hours of toil for my benefit, now get back to work, and don't forget to fix that navmesh this time, that's a good boy".

Modders work damn hard, and anyone saying that they don't deserve anything for that work is just slapping them in the face.

That they happily and readily produce that work at personal cost to themselves, sometimes a significant one, for the same people who would tell them that they don't deserve any tangible reward for it (while still mass-consuming said work), is a testament to their character and patience, their love and appreciation for their hobby and the few people genuinely capable of appreciating it, and the value of the Nexus itself, even if it reflects poorly on users that obviously take free mods for granted.

Who's really greedy, the content-creators (modders deserve the title) who want a little something for their work, or the people who think they ought to be able to enjoy that work for free? Why is this even a discussion?

WarfighterShaun wrote: Honestly my worry at the moment is those modders or to be modders who look at how certain elements of the community are behaving regarding entitlement to mods or indeed modders entitlement to praise or whatever who may or may not not release their mods or continue simply because they are put off by the attitude of some people. While in the greater scheme of things this is not going to have much effect it does mean that the public could be short a few great mods or that said mods are only given to a select few people.

Robok wrote: Well the original example is bad, but how far do you think Skyrim modding would have come if SKSE was originally released as a paid mod? Or SkyUI, or one of the hundreds of modder resources we have on the Nexus?

Look, you want the option to make money, I think anyone that doesn't support modders in that regard is being selfish and greedy, but you have to consider the circumstance and what got us here, even you must realize that introducing a paywall at such a time will split the community and create a copyrights nightmare, that is _not_ how you go about supporting modders, I'm not even sure how I'd go about introducing another model, but I know for certain introducing a paywall at this time is the wrong choice.

For now we have to trust in the Nexus and their ability to push the Donate button into visibility, I for one didn't even know the option existed until someone pointed it out in one of Dark0ne's posts.

Maruun wrote: Moneytising mods, from the ground up is nothing compared in trying to moneytise a establish mod community of a game.

Everbody forgets that until now the entire modding of Fallout3/ES was a creating, sharing learning in a open source enviorment.

If you throw money into it its over. IF they start monetizing mods with Fallout 4 from the start, i think the problems would be less, atleast between modders, but dont expect any miracles.

And the "Turn on the community" you are talking about modders that pulled free mods and asked for money behind a paywall for updates.

MoonSpot wrote: Not that it's any condolence. But the majority of what I've seen are people that didn't think 70%-75% for beth and valve was cool at all. But I'm mostly looking at tech sites and not steam comments.

Psijonica wrote: The fight is not over! They have been planning this for 3 years. The was a test phase to see out reaction. It is not just free mods we were fighting for... it was the right to mod for free too.

Modding will never be the same. They will not release a CS/CK for FO4. You will have to pay to use it like Mircrosoft and their Office suite online. The next battle is coming and I hope to see you people fight for Fallout as you fought for Skyrim.

Right now we need to forgive the modders who sold out and we need to stop harassing them. Trolling is wrong. And we as a community have to try and stop that. But remember not to troll the trolls. that accomplished nothing. They are just a reflection of our anger.

Remember, you don't run a corporation without long term plans. Like a war, this was just a small skirmish. The are well organized but many modders who have fought for free mods, some of the biggest name from all the way back to Morrowind are organizing.

The war is not over. They will not release a full CK for Fallout 4 and if we want our children to have what we have enjoyed then when you read about what is being organized I hope you will support us.

Free modding 4-ever.

WarfighterShaun wrote: Robok Agreed

Unless there is some confusion I am just debating paying for mods in general not just Skyrim mods. Skyrim should really have been left alone as it has been out for years and years.

In general topic however, everything created is somewhat based off of something else so that topic is kind of a slippery slope to use in a debate.

BadYeti wrote: It saddens me to see this bridge burning by mod authors even in the aftermath. The monetizing is gone but the well is already poisoned. :(

EnaiSiaion wrote: When mod authors are allowed to profit from their work, people will mod ONLY for money.

Have you looked at your phone's app store lately? The Porkshop was meant to be exactly this model. Given the "quality" of the first wave of mods, which were all Jim f*#@ing Sterling Son level bad except for SkyUI, it is not a stretch to see a future where anyone actually attempting to use the system for its intended purpose and offer advanced mods would get drowned in a deluge of s#*! designed to make precisely $400.

Lateraliss wrote: Warfighter, it's already been like that for years. There are modders who removed their mods from Nexus because of conflicts with the community. There have been modders that removed their mods from Nexus because people weren't worshiping them enough. It's an endless cycle. The point is there is always someone else that comes along and makes a great mod that replaces what we lost.

My belief if once a person decides that money is more important than the hobby, they focus instead on what can make them the most money instead of what would make the best quality, and that's what will end up destroying the modding community. Hundreds of low quality paid mods coming out like an assembly line. Why work on one huge mod that will get you 5 bucks when you can create 100 retextures in the same amount of time and sell them for 99 cents each.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: It looks like you don't understand my position, and I don't understand yours, so I will bow out of this discussion as I don't think anything productive will come out of it.

I will parrot the sentiment of another poster, that at least one good thing will come out of this mess: it will cull the modding community of certain types of individuals. And as history has shown, when one modder leaves, it doesn't take long for another to take their place.

Having said that, you should be thanked for what you have given to the community thus far, and I wish you well in your future endeavors.

jfisha wrote: @foster xbl

I guess that's where we're getting off track then. You're allowed to profit with your mod, I don't care.

However, I think you're complaining about this on the wrong forum. Steam is where all the death threats and really bad vitriol was coming from. Sure, there's been some here but for the most part, it's been cordial. Hell, look at Chesko's Frostfall comments. It's an over whelming amount of support.

What's confusing me is why are you on a site that has repeatedly stated it will never charge for mods and is committed to making sure the mods here remain free, complaining about why you can't charge for mods? We're all friends here and all, but I just don't get it. Go after those little bastards on Steam

Inky84 wrote: i dont know about the other people but jfisha is right.. i have no problem paying or donating to YOU but the way valve and beth set it up. you would prolly not see a dime. 25% is outrageous. plus the fact that your mods would just end up on pirates bay makes it more likely. i think that if nexus made a wallet similar to steam. (reason for this is cause i have a life too and i cant go to my paypal everytime and wonder/be worried if i can donate every time i like a mod.) that said.. i also think that donate button should also be in a better place both on nexus and steam. that way when they see it..it gives them a sense of morality.

just a thought =)

sunshinenbrick wrote: Developers will sell just the sdk on its own before long then say, make your your own goddam games! Ha :)

foster xbl wrote: @jfisha

I'm going after no-one.
I'm here because this is where I post my content
(I have some items on steam, but always with a direct link to the updated version here on the nexus, and even then only like 11 of my mods were posted there)
I couldn't care less about the children on the steam community,
This is where a posted my work
This is where I read the uproar over paid mods
This is where I read the attacks on authors
This is where I read the praise for the program being shut down
This is where I wanted to post my views

sunshinenbrick wrote: There has been a lot of praise for author's as well.

EDIT: Might I add that a lot of the other parts of the community have been more or less forgotten about. Debugging, Moderating, Testing, Troubleshooting, Programming, 3d Modelling, Boris (he is in a class of his own), All the other tool makers and "external" content creators that contribute their work.

Kudos to you all.

jfisha wrote: @foster xbl

I'm not trying to shew you away. I guess we're just reading different mod authors comments.

This was a small battle between two ways of thinking. Your side lost, for now, but what I'm just trying to reiterate to you is that some of us... scratch, that; a lot of us understand perfectly well what you want and while we disagree, I can't hold it against you. Making money doing something you like? That's the f*#@in dream!

Here's an idea; why don't we just discuss ways where perhaps we can meet in the middle?

Lordkabal26 wrote: Bethesda should man up and allow Mod Creators to setup Patreon pages. Currently Bethesda doesn't allow those sorts of donation pages where the donation page is for the mod or mod team they only allow personal donations.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Such a key point, totally agree!!

theblueshark wrote:
funny thing is, I voted against the paid mod because valve is gets a bigger share than the modder.. just saying...

CaughtInTheCrossfire wrote: The paid model was unsuccessful. You may have made some awesome mods but if people don't want to pay for them, that isn't bullying, abuse or trolling. That's the market at work.

...and I'm sick of the youtube analogy. Modding and youtubing aren't equivalent. Youtubers may be making money but no one is charging the viewers anything to consume their product.

digitaltrucker wrote: I've said it before and I'll sat it again:

All Bethesda would have had to do to begin with was remove the 'mods must be free' clause from the CK. It would have changed absolutely NOTHING for them, and the ball would be squarely in our court. I have confidence the market would sort it out, most likely by just adding a pay extension to the system already in place.

Utterly simple, and I find it hard to believe that between TWO well established successful companies nobody considered it.

YngvieMalmsteen wrote: Korodic, i have 2000 hours playing chivalry medieval warfare, because i enjoy it. i didnt get any money from doing it, but i dont regret it, because i enjoyed doing it. people mod because they enjoy doing it. if you didnt enjoy the 2000 hours you spent in the creation kit like i enjoyed the 2000 hours ive spent in chivalry medieval warfare, you making more money than i have doing it since you got one donation, then why did you do it in the first place if it wasnt to make money?

EnaiSiaion wrote: Yes, when you dangle money in front of people and then take it away, they feel they missed out on something.

foster xbl wrote: "
...and I'm sick of the youtube analogy. Modding and youtubing aren't equivalent. Youtubers may be making money but no one is charging the viewers anything to consume their product. "


Sick of it or not....if you're making money from the videos you create which showcase Skyrim mods....you're making money from Skyrim mods... how is this different?

Anyways, said enough on the matter. The two sides of this debate aren't going to change the other minds.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Google are in all sorts of grey area on this with pretty much everything. But they are rich and powerful.

hafizlordfeast wrote: You do realize the issue of paid mods are so many? So you are saying that copycat mods deserve to get paid? Do you think mods that are clearly not official DLC's that could broke the game, without Bethesda's support, deserve to be paid? Do you even think buggy mods deserve to be paid?

Donation is the only way to provide the payment gratitude the modders deserve. That's the only creative motivation that he or she will need, for financial reason. You know that YouTube doesn't give you money out of nowhere, right?

If you care enough about the modders to be paid, why don't you give them the money they deserve, because I know not all of us are rich people who can just give people ten dollars on every mod we want to get? I guess you are then? We expect free mods so we get free mods, and you already know the downside of having a mod in the first place, bugs and conflict, and you want us to pay for that?

We won't complain about the paywall if there's no problem to mods in the first place. Why don't you at least THINK before spouting your naive nobility towards all of us. It's not as simple to contribute to modders as if we are rich men. It is Bethesda and Valve responsibility to actually give financial help to them in the first place, not us, and they even get the most cut instead of modders. You think that's fair?

For the love of god, if you want to help them so much, GIVE them money, more money because they deserve it. Are you capable enough to do that or you're just ordering us to do what you want us to do?: Pay them, pay them all. I don't, because I don't have the luxury of giving them monthly salary, they modders know what they are doing is not a job, its a hobby, no matter how hard the hobby is.

If they feel it isn't enough for financial benefits, go find a job, or better yet, go find a job at Bethesda. We don't want to pay for mods because we know the positive and negative of mods, some weights the other. Common sense that should be implemented in your brain before commenting this naivety.

Wolvenlight wrote: I'll start off by saying I am not a content creator, not a modder, not an uploader. The most I've ever done was make UT2k4 maps, and I only released those among friends. I've always wanted to try modding Skyrim, but I've never had the time.

I do, however, download and browse the mods on this site constantly. It amazes me how much time, energy, work, and skill people have put into modding. And I'm glad for it. As a strict consumer, do I want to have to pay money for something cool I see and want? No, who does? Do I think people should be compensated for their work if they so choose to? Yes, who wouldn't? And if it was good enough, sure, I'd pay for a few if the prices were fair. I'd decide whether they were or not for myself.

Many people here are throwing gentle insults at each other in the form of calling people entitled hypocrites. Much of the time, both these words are being used incorrectly. Hypocrites means saying you have convictions but you actually don't, or saying something and then doing the opposite. Downloading free mods but charging for yours? Not hypocrisy. (That would be pirating paid mods but trying to charge for yours.) Entitled means thinking you deserve special treatment. Consumers who want modding to remain "pure" aren't these things, because they want that for everyone. Modders who would like to be paid are not automatically these things, as they would want these things for everyone, and they'd work in a free market, so the people would choose whether or not they want to pay for their work. If they don't, they'd lower the price, or make it free. Some consumers here, however, seem to believe that modding should always be free, and that those who want payment are greedy.

That's the real hypocrisy.

If someone makes a mod and wants to charge for it, that is their work and their prerogative. If someone doesn't want to pay for it, that is also their prerogative. So far, nobody is entitled, nobody is a hypocrite, and nobody is greedy (unless they're obviously overcharging.)

The second a consumer demands that the mods always be free, that is greed. *On the part of the consumer.* Sorry, but it most likely is. A modder could spend ten thousand hours on something and release it for free while another spends the same amount of time expecting payment. Neither are in the wrong. What's wrong is thinking one get's to dictate how another spends their own time. Paid content providers don't need your input, just like you don't need to buy their mod in the first place. They weren't demanding anything. But the consumers who shouted at them for wanting payment? They were the ones making demands, demands I would argue were born from greed. If not greed, then illogical thinking.

That's not the same as those consumers who are afraid of what paid mods could bring. It's a legitimate fear to have that quality modding might drop off if people don't have access to the utility of an open source environment. Not being able to afford all the mods you'd want is also a good fear to have. I would like the modding scene to remain free, because I like free mods. Tropical Skyrim for 0 dollars? Yes please! (Soolie pls update?) Would I pay for it? Actually, I very well might have thrown a dollar his way if I needed to do so to access it. I doubt Boris would charge $49.99 for his content, (seriously, that's such an exaggeration I'd call it fear mongering if I'd heard it from Fox News.) If that were the case, someone would come along with something similar for cheaper/free, or he'd lower the price himself once sales dropped off.

All of that isn't really my point though. In the end, if you're afraid of where this could go, say so. And if you're going to point out flaws, be sure to point out the right ones. Preferably the one's you aren't guilty of yourselves.

As for the content creators here. Don't worry about the vitriol that the loud vocal minority are throwing your way. You all have many more silent supporters (or filthy neutrals,) who actually know how to keep a level head, even if we disagree with you. I don't think you're greedy, I don't think you're hypocrites, I don't think you're entitled. The only thing I think you should do is update the Tropical Overhaul Mod.

I mean, uh. Keep doing what you're doing. Yeah. That one.

KChan wrote: Alright, a lot of people are missing some important pieces of this puzzle. We're all getting worked up over our various perspectives and conflicting ideas of what's right or wrong as far as modding is concerned, but most people aren't really stopping to think about each other.

Forget the trolls, forget the people that have unfair expectations or feel that they're deserving of everything you've got and want to have it for free.

What happened to our community? The very fact we're sitting here fuming, arguing and getting upset about this situation should very clearly demonstrate that the whole thing was/is/will be a farce. The mere presence of this system ignited a spark that burnt lines between us and separated us.

People are more than owed something in gratitude for their work, but to what extent? What's worth our money? Is what you made really worth so much? At the same time, for the other side, do you really feel that something they made is worth so little?

Those questions underlie a core problem with the idea of monetizing mods. Who's to say what you made is really worth what you want for it? Yeah, sure, Falskaar would be more than worth the cost of a hamburger, but I can't compare the cost of my next meal to the value of a digital sword that someone threw together just because they can make a few dollars off of it.

I understand that we could all very well be living under hardship, and that this modding could give you that little extra that could let you eat decent food or pay for a tank of gas. If what you made is of a sufficient quality that I feel you deserve it, I'm more than willing to drop $20 on you as a way of saying "thank you." I didn't even realize it was an OPTION until there was a mention of it in the news, and I'm sure many others didn't realize it either.

However, we're all getting caught up in the stress and the drama, and it's keeping us from remembering some of the more important people.

I guarantee you that the people so vocal in complaining in either direction aren't the ones that should be viewed as important. The vitriol spewed back and forth proves that they aren't worth a second of our attention. The ones who are important, the ones sitting back and watching what we all love burn, are often the ones who are silent during all of this.

Can you honestly say that there are none who truly appreciate what you do, or what you've done? Do you honestly feel that way? I'll say that, without all of you, Skyrim would be nothing to me. So, why do you forget those of us who really care, when faced with such criticism? I'm sure many of the people who download these mods, enjoy playing these mods, and subscribe to these mods really do appreciate what you've done.

In the end, both sides really do seem to be missing the point in all this. I would love to see you all compensated, but this isn't the way to do it. I'd have no problem paying for some of these mods, but not like this. The flaws with this system are too obvious, and the outcry that has resulted should prove that without my barely coherent rambling.

Seren4XX wrote: I think Vesuvius, Lateraliss, and KChan make some very good points about this whole system. I especially like KChan's observant opinion, but I lean mostly towards the anti-paywall points the former two have given.

Modder here, and not for paid mods any time soon. Maybe with a more honest, better-moderated system. But out of the blue like this with so many negatives as opposed to before it couldn't work. I think Beth/Valve could start off with better communication towards the modding community itself if they'll remain hellbent on getting this system out there.

Xenoshi wrote: Writers of fanfiction -do- get to sell their work. This is a fallacious stance to take.

"Welcome to Kindle Worlds, a place for you to publish fan fiction inspired by popular books, shows, movies, comics, music, and games. With Kindle Worlds, you can write new stories based on featured Worlds, engage an audience of readers, and earn royalties. Amazon Publishing has secured licenses from Warner Bros. Television Group's Alloy Entertainment for Gossip Girl, Pretty Little Liars, and The Vampire Diaries; Valiant Entertainment for Archer & Armstrong, Bloodshot, Harbinger, Shadowman, and X-O Manowar; Hugh Howey's Silo Saga; Barry Eisler's John Rain novels; Blake Crouch's Wayward Pines series; and The Foreworld Saga by Neal Stephenson, Greg Bear, Mark Teppo, Eric Bear, Joseph Brassey, Nicole Galland, and Cooper Moo. Licenses for more Worlds are on the way. "

Reddome666 wrote: I can't speak for the community, but for me the greatest fear i had with this whole debackel was the aftereffects it could have. How long before all games have this feature, how long before the devs/valve takes 90%? how long before there's an mandatory price for all workshop items? How long before free mods on free sites get taken down under copyright strikes? I dont think that anyone wants mods to turn into DLC without quality control and if its anyone that can make that happen, its Valve.
And... you're right it sucks that modders can't make any money apart from the rare donation. But i assure you, if youtubers started charging for viewing their videos, they would be out of a job.

You think this won't come to pass? A-Net is making globs of money with their Black Lion Trading Company (you can buy stuff for small change). ;) They are at 300+ employees IIRC. Be assured this was a testing ground. Feedback was given and the next iteration won't cause such a storm. ;) Edited April 28, 2015 by Sein_Schatten

[tmtapani]

In response to post #24750659.

njits wrote:

Really? I'm all for modders getting compensation for their work if they wish to monetize it, it's their work after all. But come on. They have no RIGHT to get anything for it unless they sell it in a free market. No modder has a RIGHT to get anything at all just because they happen to be modders and have uploaded something that others might use or not. Unless someone hired them to do it. THEN they would have a right to get compensated. But would that still be modding (hobby) or a job I wonder? Different things in many ways.

[ExecutusPrime]

The idea, in theory, was not without merit. I do believe that for mods that are well supported, take a significant investment of time to develop and debug, and/or include a significant amount of original content, are worth compensating the mod author for (within reason). We compensate Bethesda for original content in a similar way (granted to a greater extreme), and to deny mod authors who invest significantly in their work the same consideration (whether it be because of our ideals, familiarity with the authors, or our perception of their level of professionalism) is hypocritical. We should also keep in mind many of these same authors may be compromised financially, for whatever reason (inability to work, inability to find work, etc). For a lot of people it doesn't occur to them that one of the reasons why a mod author is able to so readily and consistently attend to questions and debug support may be because they aren't able to find regular work to begin with. After carefully considering the possibilities, to me, inane statements like "If you want to get paid, why don't you get a real job??" come across as painfully tone deaf. I would be equally justified by turning around and replying with something like "Well, if you can't afford a mod that costs $1.50, maybe you should....get a job yourself?" So in a nutshell, I can see the logic behind the original decision, the issue was timing and implementation.

Skyrim is well past it's prime and far and away from it's last meaningful development phase. Third party mod tools are easy to come by now, as well as documentation on how to use them. As a consequence we are pretty saturated with Skyrim mods in general (and not just ones on the Nexus). Spurring demand by exclusivity to generate revenue is just not going to be an effective venture when it comes to Skyrim. If someone can't or doesn't want to pay for a mod on Steam, there are likely a handful on the Nexus that can do something similiar. In other cases the individual may simply elect to make a similar free mod themselves. There are of course exceptions, but they are in the heavy minority.

In addition, many dependencies between the more complicated mods have developed (which in many cases are made by different mod teams) and become integrated into one another, to the point where the removal of one would significantly reduce the functionality of the other (if not make it unusable altogether). The transient nature of some mod authors also contributes to the issue (some are here seasonally because of other obligations), and makes it harder to tell who is still active on the sites, and keeping track of who added what features to what mod, etc. This makes a pretty mess when someone comes to an author seeking support for an issue likely caused by an incompatibility with another mod, or someone who is previously a mod author of a feature on Mod A decides to pursue intellectual property rights infringement against someone else who implemented it on Mod B, etc.

The point is that I think if the decision to do this came about a month after the Creation Kit's release and not YEARS afterward, these issues which are now at the forefront of the discussion about paid mods wouldn't be nearly as significant.

And no, I don't think the phenomenon of people paying for Skyrim mods, wholly unto itself, will destroy the modding community here at the Nexus or anywhere else. What can and *will* eventually destroy the modding community (and for that matter ANY community), is ironically what was exposed shortly after the paid mods hit Steam. If you've read the forums and mod threads of authors who opted in on Steam Workshop microtransactions, you already have a good idea of what I'm talking about. It's been a long time since I've seen that much vitriol directed towards individuals who don't happen to be career felons. And no, I'm not new to the internet...and the fact that 'everyone does it' and 'everyone has to put up with it' is in no way validation for verbal abuse. Doesn't matter who does it, it needs to go. Dividing ourselves up as 'users' and 'authors' and the namebranding needs to end as well. Fancy yourself as a 'user'? Well, at any given moment you could open the CK and decide to become an author. Authors could at any moment decide to try out someone else's mod and become a user. They are both sides of the same coin and you can't have one without the other. Differentiating between the two is pointless.

Whether authors are entitled to compensation for their efforts or users are inherently entitled to free mods isn't the point that needs to be made. The point(s) that need(s) to be made is(are) that 1. Money doesn't divide/destroy people/communities or burn bridges, people do.

2. Even though we may never agree to whether authors are entitled compensation or not, we should all agree that we are *all* entitled to respect.

 

Show how important this community is to you by showing respect to it's members, no matter who they may be.

[KingPott]

In response to post #24747184. #24747739, #24748614, #24748734, #24750139 are all replies on the same post.

Saerileth wrote:

UberSmaug wrote: Everyone should read it. I'll pm it to you if you like.

Saerileth wrote: Yes please.

KingPott wrote: Could you be so nice and pm it to me too?
got the same problem.

UberSmaug wrote: Posed it as and image for anyone else having trouble with the link.

thank you.

[Tyerial12]

In response to post #24745044. #24745229, #24745464, #24745559, #24745634, #24745674, #24745769, #24746064, #24746434, #24746794, #24746974, #24747029, #24747269, #24750919, #24751124 are all replies on the same post.

oldnotweak wrote:

jfisha wrote: Did you not read any comments that were in support? Did those get deleted or something?

ChizFoShiz wrote: The trouble is the users out number the authors by such an incredible ratio that we have no voice, no one is able to speak up for any of us against a tidal wave of entitlement like what we just witnessed this weekend.

If you want to *really* feel disgusted go over to reddit and read all the circle jerking "we won" nonsense.

It's absolutely shameful.

chaotix14 wrote: Most of those were just afraid their mods and the future modding community would go and hide behind a paywall. Also it didn't help that they launched it on steam, the problems with early access, greenlight, the open sewer gates policy on the store and even the steam workshop itself as a service, did not fill the community with a lot of faith in what this would turn out to be. And reading about the 24 hour return policy didn't exactly fill many with faith. I mean it basically was a statement that either said: "we don't understand mods. And we don't understand that you might not have the time to immediately go play the game." or "We don't care that you are left with broken stuff."

BadYeti wrote: You haven't seen entitled users until you accept their money. :P

theblueshark wrote: should have been a 1 week trial..some mods wont show that its s#*! till you're half way there..

@ oldnotweak some people that did not want the paywall is due to the cut modders were having. though we were outnumbered by people that wanted it for free forever.

diyeath wrote: @ ChizFoShiz entitlement works both ways. For nearly 2 decades we've had a community that had no issues with creating content without guaranteed monetary incentive.

Money absolutely corrupts thought process and this is a perfect case study of that social phenomina.

ChizFoShiz wrote: @ diyeath "A perfect case study" in what way? Modders get the option to be compensated and then get run off the internet? Yeah, those guys were so corrupt. Give me a freaking break.

And as for entitlement working both ways your example only illustrates the entitlement of the userbase more so, just because something has been free for the longest time, doesn't mean it has to forever, expecting that it must is pretty entitled I'd say.

icanhazmodspls wrote: @ ChizFoShiz. Yes i am entitled to some consumer rights. Firstly if i pay for a mod you can't guarantee it won't break my game as mods are inherently unstable with the game and especially with each other. Given that the majority of users use multiple mods that is rather important don't you think?

Second if i get a refund i want it to be in real money not steam monopoly money. These are basic rights as consumer so yes entitlement works both ways.

Lastly paid mods could only work if there was some form of quality control from steam, an area in which they are notoriously lacking in.

diyeath wrote: @ ChizFoShiz corrupting thought process is different than being corrupt. Very, very different. The only ones I'd truly consider corrupt are the ones who took down free mods to host them for money on steam. People like chesko are not corrupt in any visible way.

I'm basing my opinions off of emperical data collected over nearly 2 decades. That system worked fine and very, very few people complained. In fact the only one of note that I can remember is Locaster. So when you say that bringing up the fact that entitelment goes both ways shows even more entitlement I can't help but laugh because you're showing more entitlement. Its a gigantic fallicious loop perpetuated by ignoring that we had a system which worked for a very long period of time before this whole steam fiasco.

I'm not against paid mods as much as I'm against paid mods that mod authors couldn't possibly hope to support enough to justify the price tag. We all know that singular mod authors can't support the mods properly and that's fine, we're talking about potentially tens of thousands of users vs one poor guy trying to deal with all the bug reports and whatnot. But without the proper support it's not right to sell your product and we can see this in the quality of the paid mods, most of them were horrific quality with only a very select few being of good quality.

I think that you should sit down and consider all the moving pieces and chronological order of events in order to form a reasonable opinion.

I personally am in favor of a more agressive approach to donations, I really don't mind if there's a big fat "donation" button at the top of the description, blinking away in obnoxious seizure-enducing strobe effects because there's no implied warranty involved (which is a legal thing which modders would be subjecting themselves to and thus opening a can of legal worms).

Uranium - 235 wrote: "The trouble is the users out number the authors by such an incredible ratio that we have no voice, no one is able to speak up for any of us against a tidal wave of entitlement like what we just witnessed this weekend.

If you want to *really* feel disgusted go over to reddit and read all the circle jerking "we won" nonsense."

The only entitlement here is coming from you. Mod-makers are volunteers. They have ALWAYS been volunteers. Volunteering by definition means you shouldn't expect fiscal rewards for your work. Nothing about this relationship changed when you personally decided to make mods... unless you somehow feel that YOUR mods are worth more than those made by people whose creations predate yours?

You people knew the score when you started making mods. If you weren't okay with working without payment, then you shouldn't have made mods.

The fact that you're calling mod-users 'entitled'... man, maybe it's for the best that a lot of you are leaving. Good to see everyone show their true colors here. Nobody is making you make mods. If you think we OWE you for your work, then you are in the wrong business. I don't OWE you anything any more than the homeless OWE the people who volunteer to work at a soup kitchen.

ChizFoShiz wrote: @icanhazmodspls Never said anything about you not having rights as a consumer, for some of you I'm sure it IS a genuine concern over refund policies and content policing, but for the majority opinion it only takes a 30 second scan down any other outlet of discussion for this game to see the popular opinion is that mods and modders aren't worth it.

I've said this elsewhere but I'll say it again here, the system could have been changed based on feedback, refund policies can be altered, revenue distribution can be renegotiated, content policing can be provided and proven over time.

Lastly, of course I can't guarantee a plugin will work in tandem with any other plugins you want to run, no more so than Bethesda can guarantee your game will run once you throw 150 mods into it.

With a refund policy that could potentially have been changed to an acceptable system in your eyes though, would it not be a platform worth having?

diyeath wrote: @ ChizFoShiz now you need to consider implied warrany as it's a legal term which is applied when you charge money for a product.

icanhazmodspls wrote: @ChizFoShiz

I agree with you that paid mods have the potential to improve quality and are therefore worth a shot. However i have very little trust in Valve to set this up. Their vision of a digital marketplace is very libertarian and chaotic IMO.

Futhermore Valve's trackrecord regarding regulation isn't exactly good, for example Greenlight and broken games entering the store.

You do have a point that perhaps mod authors aren't responsible for a guarantee that mods are compatible with each other.

I think a solution would be a model similar to TF2 and CS. For example using polling Valve and or Bethesda can get a sense which mods are popular and or used together in the community. They can then get together with those authors to produce and release a separate DLC similar to Dragonborn or Dawnguard. The Pro's are IMO:

-sharing of resources between authors continues.
-proper Q & A resulting in consumer confidence and compatibility with other mods.
-since it's released as a separate game i have more options of buying it outside of steam/workshop.
-better pricing (release price for say 15 euros) and better bang for buck.
-better career opportunities for authors.

A concrete example: SkyRe+Wyrmtooth+Immersive Armors+"Random House Mod".

Anyway just some thoughts..

Sakorona wrote: @Uranium-235

It's awfully presumptuous of you to tell mod-makers what they are. Especially from someone who isn't even a modder.

dont need to be a modder to use your eyes