Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

greggorypeccary · April 30, 2015

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639, #24804809, #24805479, #24805499, #24806059, #24806324, #24806514, #24806754, #24806814, #24806854, #24807069, #24807204, #24807289, #24807309, #24807344, #24807574, #24807704, #24807719, #24807814, #24807909, #24808129, #24808364, #24808374, #24808739, #24808754, #24809559, #24809844, #24809854, #24809864 are all replies on the same post.

DaddyDirection wrote:

greggorypeccary wrote: Read my post, I used the nexus and it was very nice. It is a little blind to the fact that it does very well on the labors of un paid modders. It does not share the wealth with the ones that earn it for them. since you get free mods it seems fine to you. If you read my post I think you'll find that what I find is shameful really is that the nexus expects you to pay the modders. I think most of that onus is on them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The dirty secret here is Greggory gets free mods too. He's been enjoying the work of other people in the community for years. He's used the free utilities and resources provided to the community for free as well. But instead of paying-it-forward like all of the mod authors whose work he has enjoyed, he now wants to profit off of what others have allowed him to do.

greggorypeccary wrote: Its no dirty secret. I have been a contributing member of this community for some time. I'm proud of my contributions and any one can see them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Gregory, I see exactly zero contributions from you. Are you one of those modders who threw a temper tantrum and hid all your mods?

greggorypeccary wrote: You could hope but you'd be wrong.

pintocat wrote: greggorypeccary has a mod. You, on the other hand, have zero. If you've got no contributions to the community, you have no place talking down to someone who actually has.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: So all of this crying from Gregory over a single mod? Hilarious. If your mod is so wonderful, why don't you try and sell it to Bethesda? They could incorporate it into their next DLC.

sunshinenbrick wrote: No offence to any mod creator but it is not the only thing people can contribute.

greggorypeccary wrote: Vesuvius1745

The more you say the more apparent your ignorance becomes.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Sunshine is right. The "well, umm, what have you contributed?" reply is just a way to avoid addressing the points made.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm being serious Greggory, and not insulting you. If your mods are so great, why don't you try and sell them to Bethesda or some other game company? Crying about not being able to sell them on Valve on the Nexus is a pointless endeavor.

Or better yet, why not get a job at a game company? I used to work at Electronic Arts in the early 2000s. Redwood Shores in California. The pay is good, the benefits are good, and you get to work on games for a living.

greggorypeccary wrote: Again I'm not crying. I'm fine, my mod was free and always will be. My payment was friends and knowledge. If i were to do more I'd want money. If that makes me a greedy monster taking away your free stuff in your eyes, so be it. I'll sleep tonight.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Fair enough, Gregory. I used to create mods for Morrowind. My payment was the enjoyment of doing it. I've started a few mods for Skyrim, and if I ever get around to finishing them, they will be released for free as well. There are many reasons I wouldn't want to get paid, but one of them is because I have enjoyed the free content other people like you have given to the community over the years. It wouldn't seem right to take payment. It's kind of like those "give a penny, take a penny" bowls you see at convenience stores. Or the person in front of you at Starbucks who paid for your drink.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Greggory I really like your mod, it looks like a lot of time and effort went in to it and I think you should never let anyone tell you how to or not to follow your ambitions. However the system that Valvethesda tried to set up was exploitative, turning honest do good modders into slave developers and customer support workers and making people who buy mods, cash cows.

I have no problem with encouraging people to form collective game development projects that can become paid for content, but that was not what they put on the table. Realise your own worth and fight for a better deal from the hand in the sky.

greggorypeccary wrote: I'm not even talking about Steam or Bethesda. I like Bethesda, A lot. To me it is the Nexus that should be nuturing the modders mainly because they profit from them. The nexus is the one who benefits from the community and the modders. Its time to give something back. They stand to the side while the community fights between modders and users and it plays into their hands while they pretend they don't realize they are part of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do. I agree that there needs to be a higher mandate of cohesion, however a top-down approach can only do so much.

If you have not already have a read of the posts in the following Nexus forum:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

While this only scratches the surface it can hopefully start a communal consensus on what role we all play in this giant machine.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm not sure Nexus is making a profit. It was my understanding that Dark0ne runs this site at a loss. A labor of love.

Capitalism is the best economic system we've discovered thus far, but it has its flaws. One of those flaws is there is always a "race to the bottom"--hamburger patties get smaller, the toaster burns out faster, and just the general overall quality of everything slowly goes down over time. And all in the name of maximizing profits. There is no reason to believe this paradigm wouldn't happen with game mods.

Take a great mod like Falskaar for example. The author put a ton of time and energy into this expansion, and churned out a mod that, in my opinion, is heads above anything Bethesda has tried to peddle to us. Now what if he had been contracted by Bethesda to make it? All of a sudden there would be a deadline by which they expect it to be ready. They want it now now now because time is money, and the author wouldn't be able to take his time to put in all the details he otherwise would have. There might even be bugs he didn't have time to fix, or other shortcuts he had to take to make sure Bethesda had their product on time (and in corporate-America it ceases to be "art", and becomes a nameless PRODUCT--a widget on an assembly line whose sole purpose is to increase profit). I believe this is what happened to Skyrim. The programmers were rushed, and released a bug-filled, and partially incomplete product. In fact I think they just quickly ported it from the console version.

Not to mention that the number of mods required to make Skyrim enjoyable (say at $1.99 each) is out of the budget for most gamers. I know I have over 100 mods myself. This means that save for a few exceptional mods, most mod authors won't be making very much because the gamers simply cannot afford it. There will be all these mods on some paysite that never (or only rarely) get downloaded, and eventually the mod authors will stop writing mods because unless they are churning out the next Falsksaar, it just isn't worth their time. This will most likely kill the modding community because by then Bethesda will probably have taken steps to close down sites like the Nexus because they will want to maintain their monopoly.

macintroll wrote: Quote Sunshinenbrick "This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do."

Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part.

ChizFoShiz wrote: While you're right about the nexus, you're way off base about falskaar given that it was made as Alexander's "application" for employment from Bethesda, while I'm sure Alexander loves to make content and all and I wouldn't dream of making assumptions of what his stance would be here, his mod had the specific goal of gainful employment in mind.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Whether he put Falskaar on his resume or not is irrelevant. He worked on it for free, and gave it to the community for free, and he had no idea whether it would get him a job for sure or not.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Nexus is not allowed to make direct profit from mods, as I gather from the legal premise Bethesda has put down in its EULA (mods must be free). By paying people through revenue they would have to include taxes and therefore be bordering on being classified as employees and would in many ways become competition to Bethesda. Youtube own the content uploaded, Nexus does not it is still technically Bethesda's property.

Additionally I think Nexus would rather avoid the headache of having to decide who is able to enter such a scheme and who is not. Especially as the creation of a mod is rarely the work of a single individual.

The crunch is Bethesda are very flexible on this issue because they make A LOT of money out of it, steer the money in other directions and they will quickly bare their teeth I can assure you.

macintroll wrote: @sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.
The money is given ONLY because of popularity of the youtubber's page and the number of ads clicked.
2) Youtube is not the proprietary of your videos.
3) For multi-modders mod, i think it's there own work to share retribution % to the different persons who have work together, not nexus not any one else.
Moderation has to occur for sure, but they show by the past that they can do this very well (banning bad boys & girls)
4) Well yes bethesda can do what they want with their game, and also can stop the nexus tomorrow if they want.

freedom613 wrote: @Sunshine, is this in response to Mac's post: "Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part."

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Again, Sunshine is right. The Youtube thing people keep bringing up is also a false analogy, because intellectual property laws make a distinction between profiting off of someone's IP directly, or from the incidental use of that IP.

With Youtube, Bethesda's IP is not being violated. You don't get to play Skyrim for free, nor do you benefit from anything for free that would normally defer to Bethesda for some sort of profit. You are just watching someone ELSE play Skyrim--and that person (presumably) bought Skyrim and has a legal right to not only play it, but to film themselves playing it, and then they can do whatever they want with the video of them playing Skyrim.

When you design something with their creation kit, you are directly utilizing their IP from start to finish, and your mod requires Skyrim to play. Bethesda's EULA allows you to trade the mod with friends, put it on a website, or do a lot of things with it as long as you aren't trying to make a profit.

greggorypeccary wrote: macintroll said
@sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.

Yes but the Nexus takes all of the advertising money already so they would have to part with some and some subscription money too. If they are willing.

Marstonn wrote: No, the youtube have "networks", these guys have deals with devs and are allowed to monetize on game videos, the youtuber must be part of a network (Machinima, Youtube, etc).

Edit, example: MMoxreview the guy from Skyrim Mods Weekly is a part of Machinima, so that's why he can monetize.

greggorypeccary wrote: I must admit to complete ignorance to how that works. I will check it out though.

sunshinenbrick wrote: The money from advertising goes to Nexus first and they would have to distribute it. Yes you are right that Nexus could strike a deal with the ad companies that the revenue is split prior to this but that is very dodgy from Bethesda's point of view... and well Google own ad sense and licence uploaded videos so they can do what they want.

Google do not own the video but they own youtube and therefor the right for your video to be uploaded to it.

Modders have enough to do without having to write business plans and start calculating how to split revenue. If they are organised enough to be making that much money out of it then they will most likely get a call from Bethesda asking them if they would like a job.

However if Bethesda could get them to become self employed (which is what the recent experiment would have entailed) then they would prefer to do that as they have little to no responsibility for them... but still make a load of money.

macintroll wrote: @Vesuvius1745
Well i should make videos instead of mods ^^

To be more serious : you miss an important point :
Bethesda allow site like nexus to gain $500.000 a year from ads, while being a platform for downloading free mods.. made with the creation kit and their assets. And the sole maker of some of the said mods would not be able to gain some buck from the same kind of earnings ???
crazy.

Again the mod is not SELL, the mod is free, the mod doesn't give a cent to the modder, only the ads give money. And that's absolutely legal, beacause i can already put ads on my own website showing my mods with no risks.

@sunshinenbrick : sorry miss but you should learn how adsense/adwords works. and nor google, nor youtube own your videos they are plateform providers period.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'd like to know where you are getting this financial info about the Nexus. It was my understanding they consistently run at a loss. Running a popular website takes a lot of time, and one that uses a ton of bandwidth can be very expensive.

sunshinenbrick wrote: If your video violates copyright they can take it down immediately without your consent. They own the licence for your video to be distributed on their network.

One should not try compare the youtube model to the Nexus, modder, Bethesda, Valve model... they really are very different beasts.

macintroll wrote: @Marstonn
Anybody is able to monetize his video on Google.
Being in a "network" (what does it really mean in your mind ?) is not necessary , but for sure better for the number of views.

and concerning what can be "game press" well of course they are allowed, they are free advertiser for the games companies ^^ new games are send to them for reviews , even presents etc..

What is not authorized is to diffuse a video with Copyright content (the video itself, music etc...)

macintroll wrote: quote "You cannot compare the youtube setup to the Nexus, modder, Bethesda, Valve model... they really are very different beasts."

Well so explain me why Nexus is allowed to make $500.000+ / year in ads earnings...
then explain me why i can't make some $ the same way, thanks.

macintroll wrote: @Vesuvius1745

Some days ago Dark0ne said he was spending 500.000$ a year only for servers renting and additional costs. So i take this as a base.. but it could be far more in fact ^^
As the only nexus earnings are Ads.. (and some memberships) .. it's easy to understand how much is gain from ads earnings.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I don't understand how you are extrapolating profit from what Dark0ne is saying he spends to keep the site running. It sounds to me like this is a huge money sink for him.

greggorypeccary wrote: It isn't

macintroll wrote: @Vesuvius1745

Ok if you think so, but what lead you to think this ? have you found some numbers ?
A company (black tree gaming) own the nexus, and make money like any company, has operating costs like any other , at least the goal is to maintain an equilibrium. No one can work loosing money for long you know, and Nexus is growing "open to all games", it doesn't sound like a loosing company.
So if you have at least $500.000 to spend each year to make your business active, you need to earn at minima as much money somewhere.
And apart from nexus network what are the incomes ? none i'm aware of.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Please remember the money made by the Nexus is for the use of the Nexus, not for individual mods. This is why they are allowed to do it.

In legal terms when one donates for a mod they are not paying for the mod they are actually donating to the modder themselves, this is why Bethesda turn a blind eye. It is advantageous to them and it is also somewhat on the fence legally on whether the donation was for the mod or just because you like to support what the modder does. It really is a setup that is based on good will a trust, both from Bethesda's point of view and Nexus and its users.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I have no evidence of anything. I was going on Dark0ne's word that he runs this site at a loss. I have no reason to believe otherwise, and I would be surprised if a site like this was making any significant amount of profit. He spends a lot of money on upkeep, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is making at least that from donations/ads. I have friends who made a ton of money off of Bitcoins, and are now engaging in labors of love that are also money sinks.

Do you have some information the rest of us don't?

macintroll wrote: quote : " Do you have some information the rest of us don't?"
All key financial info on companies are publicly available (thus it's last year for most yet) and detailled info can be bought if you want.
Google the company name you'll find more info. (not very difficult)

I'm not here to accuse nexus of anything, just to point the fact that they are allowed to make money from ads, is it enough, is it too much ?, it's not the point of my discussion, honestly I don't care, the "service" is good here, i really appreciate what Dark0ne has made and how it helps the "community".

But if they can do it, rightfully gaining money providing access to modders content ...why not also the modders who provide each part of the content of this site ?.
I see it as a win-win solution : free mods for end users and modders rewarded with some $

Again in this formula, it's not the mod which is giving money to the modder, it's the audience it generate like elsewhere, exactly what does the nexus to pay their bills.

greggorypeccary wrote: The world is full of hugely profitable companies whose whose image is " We're your friend. We're here to help you" . And don't let the words Non Profit fool you either. My advise is that when they offer you the Kool-Aide tomorrow.....Don't drink it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I suppose you could make money from ads if you allowed them inside the actual mod... I am not sure of the legality of that however, interesting thought.

My idea behind this is you could put Coke billboards up in Fallout, for example, and gain revenue from that. Problem is even if this were legal, I'm not sure people would like it.

I think Bethesda actually have to look at where they stand on individual modders making money from advertising their mods on the Nexus, or elsewhere for that matter. Either way it is not a decision the Nexus can make. It could work to Bethesda's advantage as they will be gaining free marketing. Only real issue is the type of mod, does it adhere to what Bethesda want to be associated with. Lord of the Rings mods would bring unwanted legal action, as too would many of the sex mods.

DreamingGirl wrote: If you don't like Nexus 'making money' off your mods, you are free to set up your own site to host them on, get advertizement and see how much you actually earn from it :)

I know. I never said they can't make money. You are mis- paraphrazing Edited April 30, 2015 by greggorypeccary

jacquelope · April 30, 2015

In short:

We won.

Get over it, be gracious to the modders who tried to sell their mods, and don't water the grudge plants!

eu3fan · April 30, 2015

@Dark0ne

I can't help but feel you were saying nice things to help them off the stage given they have now lost.

No, it doesn't make me feel bad for Bestheda at all reading what they say. The 45% cut made their intentions all too clear. For what they did no work on, they wanted by far the largest cut. This is rampant greed. If they truly care about modders, then they would not have demanded such a large cut for themselves and leave so little to the ones who actually did the work.

@Nightasy

I understand you want to be compensated but do understand that you are not in any way being cheated by the community. Just as you've contributed your hard work to Nexus, you also are entitled to the work of others from Nexus. Had everyone monetized their own mods, you'd find your gaming experience in TES titles to be much degraded. Imagine playing without SkyUI, OOO, Midas Magic, etc, etc, etc because they all cost $5+ each.

In addition, I'd also want to say that modding is not a good means of earning money. Even with the Valve-Bestheda system, I cannot envision most modders to make anything. Not only will there be free mods competing with your work, the difference between one dollar and no cost is huge when it comes to incentives to download. Not to mention, the 25% cut is just too low. As a modder myself, I refuse to participate in such an exploitative system.

Personally, the rewards of my modding endeavors take the form of a portfolio. It helped me to get a job in IBM 3 years ago and that's more than anything I'd have asked for in return for my efforts.

Psijonica · April 30, 2015

Dear Dark0ne;

I just wanted to make a public apology to you. I had taken a militant approach during this fiasco and said some things that were kinda out there and in other cases completely wrong. Passion got the best of me. Although I stand by my core argument I obviously made some errors in judgement and how I chose to express myself and for that I am sorry.

Cheers

ReconTA · April 30, 2015

In response to post #24784099. #24784289, #24785139 are all replies on the same post.

ReconTA wrote:

bullpcp wrote: "It took 1 entire day for the Skyrim community to be hit by this bad idea. The maker of SkyUI, the most popular SKyrim mod in its history announced he wouldn’t support it anymore and was going to be making a pay only version for the future."

I would just like to point out that this modder would not have otherwise updated his mod at all. Essentially the paid for option presented a mod that otherwise would not have existed.

Wolvenlight wrote: These are all fantastic points and I agree with every single one.

@bullpcp Well the mod is already next to perfect, so the benefits of that are negligible, and compared to the damage it would cause... definitely not worth it. Edited April 30, 2015 by ReconTA

macintroll · April 30, 2015

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639, #24804809, #24805479, #24805499, #24806059, #24806324, #24806514, #24806754, #24806814, #24806854, #24807069, #24807204, #24807289, #24807309, #24807344, #24807574, #24807704, #24807719, #24807814, #24807909, #24808129, #24808364, #24808374, #24808739, #24808754, #24809559, #24809844, #24809854, #24809864, #24810014 are all replies on the same post.

DaddyDirection wrote:

greggorypeccary wrote: Read my post, I used the nexus and it was very nice. It is a little blind to the fact that it does very well on the labors of un paid modders. It does not share the wealth with the ones that earn it for them. since you get free mods it seems fine to you. If you read my post I think you'll find that what I find is shameful really is that the nexus expects you to pay the modders. I think most of that onus is on them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The dirty secret here is Greggory gets free mods too. He's been enjoying the work of other people in the community for years. He's used the free utilities and resources provided to the community for free as well. But instead of paying-it-forward like all of the mod authors whose work he has enjoyed, he now wants to profit off of what others have allowed him to do.

greggorypeccary wrote: Its no dirty secret. I have been a contributing member of this community for some time. I'm proud of my contributions and any one can see them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Gregory, I see exactly zero contributions from you. Are you one of those modders who threw a temper tantrum and hid all your mods?

greggorypeccary wrote: You could hope but you'd be wrong.

pintocat wrote: greggorypeccary has a mod. You, on the other hand, have zero. If you've got no contributions to the community, you have no place talking down to someone who actually has.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: So all of this crying from Gregory over a single mod? Hilarious. If your mod is so wonderful, why don't you try and sell it to Bethesda? They could incorporate it into their next DLC.

sunshinenbrick wrote: No offence to any mod creator but money is not the only thing people can contribute.

greggorypeccary wrote: Vesuvius1745

The more you say the more apparent your ignorance becomes.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Sunshine is right. The "well, umm, what have you contributed?" reply is just a way to avoid addressing the points made.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm being serious Greggory, and not insulting you. If your mods are so great, why don't you try and sell them to Bethesda or some other game company? Crying about not being able to sell them on Valve on the Nexus is a pointless endeavor.

Or better yet, why not get a job at a game company? I used to work at Electronic Arts in the early 2000s. Redwood Shores in California. The pay is good, the benefits are good, and you get to work on games for a living.

greggorypeccary wrote: Again I'm not crying. I'm fine, my mod was free and always will be. My payment was friends and knowledge. If i were to do more I'd want money. If that makes me a greedy monster taking away your free stuff in your eyes, so be it. I'll sleep tonight.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Fair enough, Gregory. I used to create mods for Morrowind. My payment was the enjoyment of doing it. I've started a few mods for Skyrim, and if I ever get around to finishing them, they will be released for free as well. There are many reasons I wouldn't want to get paid, but one of them is because I have enjoyed the free content other people like you have given to the community over the years. It wouldn't seem right to take payment. It's kind of like those "give a penny, take a penny" bowls you see at convenience stores. Or the person in front of you at Starbucks who paid for your drink.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Greggory I really like your mod, it looks like a lot of time and effort went in to it and I think you should never let anyone tell you how to or not to follow your ambitions. However the system that Valvethesda tried to set up was exploitative, turning honest do good modders into slave developers and customer support workers and making people who buy mods, cash cows.

I have no problem with encouraging people to form collective game development projects that can become paid for content, but that was not what they put on the table. Realise your own worth and fight for a better deal from the hand in the sky.

greggorypeccary wrote: I'm not even talking about Steam or Bethesda. I like Bethesda, A lot. To me it is the Nexus that should be nuturing the modders mainly because they profit from them. The nexus is the one who benefits from the community and the modders. Its time to give something back. They stand to the side while the community fights between modders and users and it plays into their hands while they pretend they don't realize they are part of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do. I agree that there needs to be a higher mandate of cohesion, however a top-down approach can only do so much.

If you have not already have a read of the posts in the following Nexus forum:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

While this only scratches the surface it can hopefully start a communal consensus on what role we all play in this giant machine.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm not sure Nexus is making a profit. It was my understanding that Dark0ne runs this site at a loss. A labor of love.

Capitalism is the best economic system we've discovered thus far, but it has its flaws. One of those flaws is there is always a "race to the bottom"--hamburger patties get smaller, the toaster burns out faster, and just the general overall quality of everything slowly goes down over time. And all in the name of maximizing profits. There is no reason to believe this paradigm wouldn't happen with game mods.

Take a great mod like Falskaar for example. The author put a ton of time and energy into this expansion, and churned out a mod that, in my opinion, is heads above anything Bethesda has tried to peddle to us. Now what if he had been contracted by Bethesda to make it? All of a sudden there would be a deadline by which they expect it to be ready. They want it now now now because time is money, and the author wouldn't be able to take his time to put in all the details he otherwise would have. There might even be bugs he didn't have time to fix, or other shortcuts he had to take to make sure Bethesda had their product on time (and in corporate-America it ceases to be "art", and becomes a nameless PRODUCT--a widget on an assembly line whose sole purpose is to increase profit). I believe this is what happened to Skyrim. The programmers were rushed, and released a bug-filled, and partially incomplete product. In fact I think they just quickly ported it from the console version.

Not to mention that the number of mods required to make Skyrim enjoyable (say at $1.99 each) is out of the budget for most gamers. I know I have over 100 mods myself. This means that save for a few exceptional mods, most mod authors won't be making very much because the gamers simply cannot afford it. There will be all these mods on some paysite that never (or only rarely) get downloaded, and eventually the mod authors will stop writing mods because unless they are churning out the next Falsksaar, it just isn't worth their time. This will most likely kill the modding community because by then Bethesda will probably have taken steps to close down sites like the Nexus because they will want to maintain their monopoly.

macintroll wrote: Quote Sunshinenbrick "This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do."

Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part.

ChizFoShiz wrote: While you're right about the nexus, you're way off base about falskaar given that it was made as Alexander's "application" for employment from Bethesda, while I'm sure Alexander loves to make content and all and I wouldn't dream of making assumptions of what his stance would be here, his mod had the specific goal of gainful employment in mind.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Whether he put Falskaar on his resume or not is irrelevant. He worked on it for free, and gave it to the community for free, and he had no idea whether it would get him a job for sure or not.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Nexus is not allowed to make direct profit from mods, as I gather from the legal premise Bethesda has put down in its EULA (mods must be free). By paying people through revenue they would have to include taxes and therefore be bordering on being classified as employees and would in many ways become competition to Bethesda. Youtube own the content uploaded, Nexus does not it is still technically Bethesda's property.

Additionally I think Nexus would rather avoid the headache of having to decide who is able to enter such a scheme and who is not. Especially as the creation of a mod is rarely the work of a single individual.

The crunch is Bethesda are very flexible on this issue because they make A LOT of money out of it, steer the money in other directions and they will quickly bare their teeth I can assure you.

macintroll wrote: @sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.
The money is given ONLY because of popularity of the youtubber's page and the number of ads clicked.
2) Youtube is not the proprietary of your videos.
3) For multi-modders mod, i think it's there own work to share retribution % to the different persons who have work together, not nexus not any one else.
Moderation has to occur for sure, but they show by the past that they can do this very well (banning bad boys & girls)
4) Well yes bethesda can do what they want with their game, and also can stop the nexus tomorrow if they want.

freedom613 wrote: @Sunshine, is this in response to Mac's post: "Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part."

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Again, Sunshine is right. The Youtube thing people keep bringing up is also a false analogy, because intellectual property laws make a distinction between profiting off of someone's IP directly, or from the incidental use of that IP.

With Youtube, Bethesda's IP is not being violated. You don't get to play Skyrim for free, nor do you benefit from anything for free that would normally defer to Bethesda for some sort of profit. You are just watching someone ELSE play Skyrim--and that person (presumably) bought Skyrim and has a legal right to not only play it, but to film themselves playing it, and then they can do whatever they want with the video of them playing Skyrim.

When you design something with their creation kit, you are directly utilizing their IP from start to finish, and your mod requires Skyrim to play. Bethesda's EULA allows you to trade the mod with friends, put it on a website, or do a lot of things with it as long as you aren't trying to make a profit.

greggorypeccary wrote: macintroll said
@sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.

Yes but the Nexus takes all of the advertising money already so they would have to part with some and some subscription money too. If they are willing.

Marstonn wrote: No, the youtube have "networks", these guys have deals with devs and are allowed to monetize on game videos, the youtuber must be part of a network (Machinima, Youtube, etc).

Edit, example: MMoxreview the guy from Skyrim Mods Weekly is a part of Machinima, so that's why he can monetize.

greggorypeccary wrote: I must admit to complete ignorance to how that works. I will check it out though.

sunshinenbrick wrote: The money from advertising goes to Nexus first and they would have to distribute it. Yes you are right that Nexus could strike a deal with the ad companies that the revenue is split prior to this but that is very dodgy from Bethesda's point of view... and well Google own ad sense and licence uploaded videos so they can do what they want.

Google do not own the video but they own youtube and therefor the right for your video to be uploaded to it.

Modders have enough to do without having to write business plans and start calculating how to split revenue. If they are organised enough to be making that much money out of it then they will most likely get a call from Bethesda asking them if they would like a job.

However if Bethesda could get them to become self employed (which is what the recent experiment would have entailed) then they would prefer to do that as they have little to no responsibility for them... but still make a load of money.

macintroll wrote: @Vesuvius1745
Well i should make videos instead of mods ^^

To be more serious : you miss an important point :
Bethesda allow site like nexus to gain $500.000 a year from ads, while being a platform for downloading free mods.. made with the creation kit and their assets. And the sole maker of some of the said mods would not be able to gain some buck from the same kind of earnings ???
crazy.

Again the mod is not SELL, the mod is free, the mod doesn't give a cent to the modder, only the ads give money. And that's absolutely legal, beacause i can already put ads on my own website showing my mods with no risks.

@sunshinenbrick : sorry miss but you should learn how adsense/adwords works. and nor google, nor youtube own your videos they are plateform providers period.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'd like to know where you are getting this financial info about the Nexus. It was my understanding they consistently run at a loss. Running a popular website takes a lot of time, and one that uses a ton of bandwidth can be very expensive.

sunshinenbrick wrote: If your video violates copyright they can take it down immediately without your consent. They own the licence for your video to be distributed on their network.

One should not try compare the youtube model to the Nexus, modder, Bethesda, Valve model... they really are very different beasts.

macintroll wrote: @Marstonn
Anybody is able to monetize his video on Google.
Being in a "network" (what does it really mean in your mind ?) is not necessary , but for sure better for the number of views.

and concerning what can be "game press" well of course they are allowed, they are free advertiser for the games companies ^^ new games are send to them for reviews , even presents etc..

What is not authorized is to diffuse a video with Copyright content (the video itself, music etc...)

macintroll wrote: quote "You cannot compare the youtube setup to the Nexus, modder, Bethesda, Valve model... they really are very different beasts."

Well so explain me why Nexus is allowed to make $500.000+ / year in ads earnings...
then explain me why i can't make some $ the same way, thanks.

macintroll wrote: @Vesuvius1745

Some days ago Dark0ne said he was spending 500.000$ a year only for servers renting and additional costs. So i take this as a base.. but it could be far more in fact ^^
As the only nexus earnings are Ads.. (and some memberships) .. it's easy to understand how much is gain from ads earnings.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I don't understand how you are extrapolating profit from what Dark0ne is saying he spends to keep the site running. It sounds to me like this is a huge money sink for him.

greggorypeccary wrote: It isn't

macintroll wrote: @Vesuvius1745

Ok if you think so, but what lead you to think this ? have you found some numbers ?
A company (black tree gaming) own the nexus, and make money like any company, has operating costs like any other , at least the goal is to maintain an equilibrium. No one can work loosing money for long you know, and Nexus is growing "open to all games", it doesn't sound like a loosing company.
So if you have at least $500.000 to spend each year to make your business active, you need to earn at minima as much money somewhere.
And apart from nexus network what are the incomes ? none i'm aware of.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Please remember the money made by the Nexus is for the use of the Nexus, not for individual mods. This is why they are allowed to do it.

In legal terms when one donates for a mod they are not paying for the mod they are actually donating to the modder themselves, this is why Bethesda turn a blind eye. It is advantageous to them and it is also somewhat on the fence legally on whether the donation was for the mod or just because you like to support what the modder does. It really is a setup that is based on good will a trust, both from Bethesda's point of view and Nexus and its users.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I have no evidence of anything. I was going on Dark0ne's word that he runs this site at a loss. I have no reason to believe otherwise, and I would be surprised if a site like this was making any significant amount of profit. He spends a lot of money on upkeep, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is making at least that from donations/ads. I have friends who made a ton of money off of Bitcoins, and are now engaging in labors of love that are also money sinks.

Do you have some information the rest of us don't?

macintroll wrote: quote : " Do you have some information the rest of us don't?"
All key financial info on companies are publicly available (thus it's last year for most yet) and detailled info can be bought if you want.
Google the company name you'll find more info. (not very difficult)

I'm not here to accuse nexus of anything, just to point the fact that they are allowed to make money from ads, is it enough, is it too much ?, it's not the point of my discussion, honestly I don't care, the "service" is good here, i really appreciate what Dark0ne has made and how it helps the "community".

But if they can do it, rightfully gaining money providing access to modders content ...why not also the modders who provide each part of the content of this site ?.
I see it as a win-win solution : free mods for end users and modders rewarded with some $

Again in this formula, it's not the mod which is giving money to the modder, it's the audience it generate like elsewhere, exactly what does the nexus to pay their bills.

greggorypeccary wrote: The world is full of hugely profitable companies whose whose image is " We're your friend. We're here to help you" . And don't let the words Non Profit fool you either. My advise is that when they offer you the Kool-Aide tomorrow.....Don't drink it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I suppose you could make money from ads if you allowed them inside the actual mod... I am not sure of the legality of that however, interesting thought.

My idea behind this is you could put Coke billboards up in Fallout, for example, and gain revenue from that. Problem is even if this were legal, I'm not sure people would like it.

I think Bethesda actually have to look at where they stand on individual modders making money from advertising their mods on the Nexus, or elsewhere for that matter. Either way it is not a decision the Nexus can make. It could work to Bethesda's advantage as they will be gaining free marketing. Only real issue is the type of mod, does it adhere to what Bethesda want to be associated with. Lord of the Rings mods would bring unwanted legal action, as too would many of the sex mods.

DreamingGirl wrote: If you don't like Nexus 'making money' off your mods, you are free to set up your own site to host them on, get advertizement and see how much you actually earn from it :)

greggorypeccary wrote: I know. I never said they can't make money. You are mis- paraphrazing

quote : "I suppose you could make money from ads if you allowed them inside the actual mod... I am not sure of the legality of that however, interesting thought."
Argh no please not that ! some brand have already much more ad they deserve in bethesda games (nuka cola ? ^^ )
I'm just speaking of a "generic" web banner on the mod page, no more, no less.

Do not expect to be rich with this, but you still can have some $ reward.

Axeface · April 30, 2015

In response to post #24810064.

jacquelope wrote:

Can you define who 'we' is please. Because I and many others are not part of your 'we'.

DreamingGirl · April 30, 2015

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639, #24804809, #24805479, #24805499, #24806059, #24806324, #24806514, #24806754, #24806814, #24806854, #24807069, #24807204, #24807289, #24807309, #24807344, #24807574, #24807704, #24807719, #24807814, #24807909, #24808129, #24808364, #24808374, #24808739, #24808754, #24809559, #24809844, #24809854, #24809864, #24810014, #24810319 are all replies on the same post.

DaddyDirection wrote:

greggorypeccary wrote: Read my post, I used the nexus and it was very nice. It is a little blind to the fact that it does very well on the labors of un paid modders. It does not share the wealth with the ones that earn it for them. since you get free mods it seems fine to you. If you read my post I think you'll find that what I find is shameful really is that the nexus expects you to pay the modders. I think most of that onus is on them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The dirty secret here is Greggory gets free mods too. He's been enjoying the work of other people in the community for years. He's used the free utilities and resources provided to the community for free as well. But instead of paying-it-forward like all of the mod authors whose work he has enjoyed, he now wants to profit off of what others have allowed him to do.

greggorypeccary wrote: Its no dirty secret. I have been a contributing member of this community for some time. I'm proud of my contributions and any one can see them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Gregory, I see exactly zero contributions from you. Are you one of those modders who threw a temper tantrum and hid all your mods?

greggorypeccary wrote: You could hope but you'd be wrong.

pintocat wrote: greggorypeccary has a mod. You, on the other hand, have zero. If you've got no contributions to the community, you have no place talking down to someone who actually has.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: So all of this crying from Gregory over a single mod? Hilarious. If your mod is so wonderful, why don't you try and sell it to Bethesda? They could incorporate it into their next DLC.

sunshinenbrick wrote: No offence to any mod creator but money is not the only thing people can contribute.

greggorypeccary wrote: Vesuvius1745

The more you say the more apparent your ignorance becomes.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Sunshine is right. The "well, umm, what have you contributed?" reply is just a way to avoid addressing the points made.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm being serious Greggory, and not insulting you. If your mods are so great, why don't you try and sell them to Bethesda or some other game company? Crying about not being able to sell them on Valve on the Nexus is a pointless endeavor.

Or better yet, why not get a job at a game company? I used to work at Electronic Arts in the early 2000s. Redwood Shores in California. The pay is good, the benefits are good, and you get to work on games for a living.

greggorypeccary wrote: Again I'm not crying. I'm fine, my mod was free and always will be. My payment was friends and knowledge. If i were to do more I'd want money. If that makes me a greedy monster taking away your free stuff in your eyes, so be it. I'll sleep tonight.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Fair enough, Gregory. I used to create mods for Morrowind. My payment was the enjoyment of doing it. I've started a few mods for Skyrim, and if I ever get around to finishing them, they will be released for free as well. There are many reasons I wouldn't want to get paid, but one of them is because I have enjoyed the free content other people like you have given to the community over the years. It wouldn't seem right to take payment. It's kind of like those "give a penny, take a penny" bowls you see at convenience stores. Or the person in front of you at Starbucks who paid for your drink.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Greggory I really like your mod, it looks like a lot of time and effort went in to it and I think you should never let anyone tell you how to or not to follow your ambitions. However the system that Valvethesda tried to set up was exploitative, turning honest do good modders into slave developers and customer support workers and making people who buy mods, cash cows.

I have no problem with encouraging people to form collective game development projects that can become paid for content, but that was not what they put on the table. Realise your own worth and fight for a better deal from the hand in the sky.

greggorypeccary wrote: I'm not even talking about Steam or Bethesda. I like Bethesda, A lot. To me it is the Nexus that should be nuturing the modders mainly because they profit from them. The nexus is the one who benefits from the community and the modders. Its time to give something back. They stand to the side while the community fights between modders and users and it plays into their hands while they pretend they don't realize they are part of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do. I agree that there needs to be a higher mandate of cohesion, however a top-down approach can only do so much.

If you have not already have a read of the posts in the following Nexus forum:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

While this only scratches the surface it can hopefully start a communal consensus on what role we all play in this giant machine.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm not sure Nexus is making a profit. It was my understanding that Dark0ne runs this site at a loss. A labor of love.

Capitalism is the best economic system we've discovered thus far, but it has its flaws. One of those flaws is there is always a "race to the bottom"--hamburger patties get smaller, the toaster burns out faster, and just the general overall quality of everything slowly goes down over time. And all in the name of maximizing profits. There is no reason to believe this paradigm wouldn't happen with game mods.

Take a great mod like Falskaar for example. The author put a ton of time and energy into this expansion, and churned out a mod that, in my opinion, is heads above anything Bethesda has tried to peddle to us. Now what if he had been contracted by Bethesda to make it? All of a sudden there would be a deadline by which they expect it to be ready. They want it now now now because time is money, and the author wouldn't be able to take his time to put in all the details he otherwise would have. There might even be bugs he didn't have time to fix, or other shortcuts he had to take to make sure Bethesda had their product on time (and in corporate-America it ceases to be "art", and becomes a nameless PRODUCT--a widget on an assembly line whose sole purpose is to increase profit). I believe this is what happened to Skyrim. The programmers were rushed, and released a bug-filled, and partially incomplete product. In fact I think they just quickly ported it from the console version.

Not to mention that the number of mods required to make Skyrim enjoyable (say at $1.99 each) is out of the budget for most gamers. I know I have over 100 mods myself. This means that save for a few exceptional mods, most mod authors won't be making very much because the gamers simply cannot afford it. There will be all these mods on some paysite that never (or only rarely) get downloaded, and eventually the mod authors will stop writing mods because unless they are churning out the next Falsksaar, it just isn't worth their time. This will most likely kill the modding community because by then Bethesda will probably have taken steps to close down sites like the Nexus because they will want to maintain their monopoly.

macintroll wrote: Quote Sunshinenbrick "This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do."

Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part.

ChizFoShiz wrote: While you're right about the nexus, you're way off base about falskaar given that it was made as Alexander's "application" for employment from Bethesda, while I'm sure Alexander loves to make content and all and I wouldn't dream of making assumptions of what his stance would be here, his mod had the specific goal of gainful employment in mind.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Whether he put Falskaar on his resume or not is irrelevant. He worked on it for free, and gave it to the community for free, and he had no idea whether it would get him a job for sure or not.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Nexus is not allowed to make direct profit from mods, as I gather from the legal premise Bethesda has put down in its EULA (mods must be free). By paying people through revenue they would have to include taxes and therefore be bordering on being classified as employees and would in many ways become competition to Bethesda. Youtube own the content uploaded, Nexus does not it is still technically Bethesda's property.

Additionally I think Nexus would rather avoid the headache of having to decide who is able to enter such a scheme and who is not. Especially as the creation of a mod is rarely the work of a single individual.

The crunch is Bethesda are very flexible on this issue because they make A LOT of money out of it, steer the money in other directions and they will quickly bare their teeth I can assure you.

macintroll wrote: @sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.
The money is given ONLY because of popularity of the youtubber's page and the number of ads clicked.
2) Youtube is not the proprietary of your videos.
3) For multi-modders mod, i think it's there own work to share retribution % to the different persons who have work together, not nexus not any one else.
Moderation has to occur for sure, but they show by the past that they can do this very well (banning bad boys & girls)
4) Well yes bethesda can do what they want with their game, and also can stop the nexus tomorrow if they want.

freedom613 wrote: @Sunshine, is this in response to Mac's post: "Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part."

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Again, Sunshine is right. The Youtube thing people keep bringing up is also a false analogy, because intellectual property laws make a distinction between profiting off of someone's IP directly, or from the incidental use of that IP.

With Youtube, Bethesda's IP is not being violated. You don't get to play Skyrim for free, nor do you benefit from anything for free that would normally defer to Bethesda for some sort of profit. You are just watching someone ELSE play Skyrim--and that person (presumably) bought Skyrim and has a legal right to not only play it, but to film themselves playing it, and then they can do whatever they want with the video of them playing Skyrim.

When you design something with their creation kit, you are directly utilizing their IP from start to finish, and your mod requires Skyrim to play. Bethesda's EULA allows you to trade the mod with friends, put it on a website, or do a lot of things with it as long as you aren't trying to make a profit.

greggorypeccary wrote: macintroll said
@sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.

Yes but the Nexus takes all of the advertising money already so they would have to part with some and some subscription money too. If they are willing.

Marstonn wrote: No, the youtube have "networks", these guys have deals with devs and are allowed to monetize on game videos, the youtuber must be part of a network (Machinima, Youtube, etc).

Edit, example: MMoxreview the guy from Skyrim Mods Weekly is a part of Machinima, so that's why he can monetize.

greggorypeccary wrote: I must admit to complete ignorance to how that works. I will check it out though.

sunshinenbrick wrote: The money from advertising goes to Nexus first and they would have to distribute it. Yes you are right that Nexus could strike a deal with the ad companies that the revenue is split prior to this but that is very dodgy from Bethesda's point of view... and well Google own ad sense and licence uploaded videos so they can do what they want.

Google do not own the video but they own youtube and therefor the right for your video to be uploaded to it.

Modders have enough to do without having to write business plans and start calculating how to split revenue. If they are organised enough to be making that much money out of it then they will most likely get a call from Bethesda asking them if they would like a job.

However if Bethesda could get them to become self employed (which is what the recent experiment would have entailed) then they would prefer to do that as they have little to no responsibility for them... but still make a load of money.

macintroll wrote: @Vesuvius1745
Well i should make videos instead of mods ^^

To be more serious : you miss an important point :
Bethesda allow site like nexus to gain $500.000 a year from ads, while being a platform for downloading free mods.. made with the creation kit and their assets. And the sole maker of some of the said mods would not be able to gain some buck from the same kind of earnings ???
crazy.

Again the mod is not SELL, the mod is free, the mod doesn't give a cent to the modder, only the ads give money. And that's absolutely legal, beacause i can already put ads on my own website showing my mods with no risks.

@sunshinenbrick : sorry miss but you should learn how adsense/adwords works. and nor google, nor youtube own your videos they are plateform providers period.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'd like to know where you are getting this financial info about the Nexus. It was my understanding they consistently run at a loss. Running a popular website takes a lot of time, and one that uses a ton of bandwidth can be very expensive.

sunshinenbrick wrote: If your video violates copyright they can take it down immediately without your consent. They own the licence for your video to be distributed on their network.

One should not try compare the youtube model to the Nexus, modder, Bethesda, Valve model... they really are very different beasts.

macintroll wrote: @Marstonn
Anybody is able to monetize his video on Google.
Being in a "network" (what does it really mean in your mind ?) is not necessary , but for sure better for the number of views.

and concerning what can be "game press" well of course they are allowed, they are free advertiser for the games companies ^^ new games are send to them for reviews , even presents etc..

What is not authorized is to diffuse a video with Copyright content (the video itself, music etc...)

macintroll wrote: quote "You cannot compare the youtube setup to the Nexus, modder, Bethesda, Valve model... they really are very different beasts."

Well so explain me why Nexus is allowed to make $500.000+ / year in ads earnings...
then explain me why i can't make some $ the same way, thanks.

macintroll wrote: @Vesuvius1745

Some days ago Dark0ne said he was spending 500.000$ a year only for servers renting and additional costs. So i take this as a base.. but it could be far more in fact ^^
As the only nexus earnings are Ads.. (and some memberships) .. it's easy to understand how much is gain from ads earnings.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I don't understand how you are extrapolating profit from what Dark0ne is saying he spends to keep the site running. It sounds to me like this is a huge money sink for him.

greggorypeccary wrote: It isn't

macintroll wrote: @Vesuvius1745

Ok if you think so, but what lead you to think this ? have you found some numbers ?
A company (black tree gaming) own the nexus, and make money like any company, has operating costs like any other , at least the goal is to maintain an equilibrium. No one can work loosing money for long you know, and Nexus is growing "open to all games", it doesn't sound like a loosing company.
So if you have at least $500.000 to spend each year to make your business active, you need to earn at minima as much money somewhere.
And apart from nexus network what are the incomes ? none i'm aware of.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Please remember the money made by the Nexus is for the use of the Nexus, not for individual mods. This is why they are allowed to do it.

In legal terms when one donates for a mod they are not paying for the mod they are actually donating to the modder themselves, this is why Bethesda turn a blind eye. It is advantageous to them and it is also somewhat on the fence legally on whether the donation was for the mod or just because you like to support what the modder does. It really is a setup that is based on good will a trust, both from Bethesda's point of view and Nexus and its users.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I have no evidence of anything. I was going on Dark0ne's word that he runs this site at a loss. I have no reason to believe otherwise, and I would be surprised if a site like this was making any significant amount of profit. He spends a lot of money on upkeep, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is making at least that from donations/ads. I have friends who made a ton of money off of Bitcoins, and are now engaging in labors of love that are also money sinks.

Do you have some information the rest of us don't?

macintroll wrote: quote : " Do you have some information the rest of us don't?"
All key financial info on companies are publicly available (thus it's last year for most yet) and detailled info can be bought if you want.
Google the company name you'll find more info. (not very difficult)

I'm not here to accuse nexus of anything, just to point the fact that they are allowed to make money from ads, is it enough, is it too much ?, it's not the point of my discussion, honestly I don't care, the "service" is good here, i really appreciate what Dark0ne has made and how it helps the "community".

But if they can do it, rightfully gaining money providing access to modders content ...why not also the modders who provide each part of the content of this site ?.
I see it as a win-win solution : free mods for end users and modders rewarded with some $

Again in this formula, it's not the mod which is giving money to the modder, it's the audience it generate like elsewhere, exactly what does the nexus to pay their bills.

greggorypeccary wrote: The world is full of hugely profitable companies whose whose image is " We're your friend. We're here to help you" . And don't let the words Non Profit fool you either. My advise is that when they offer you the Kool-Aide tomorrow.....Don't drink it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I suppose you could make money from ads if you allowed them inside the actual mod... I am not sure of the legality of that however, interesting thought.

My idea behind this is you could put Coke billboards up in Fallout, for example, and gain revenue from that. Problem is even if this were legal, I'm not sure people would like it.

I think Bethesda actually have to look at where they stand on individual modders making money from advertising their mods on the Nexus, or elsewhere for that matter. Either way it is not a decision the Nexus can make. It could work to Bethesda's advantage as they will be gaining free marketing. Only real issue is the type of mod, does it adhere to what Bethesda want to be associated with. Lord of the Rings mods would bring unwanted legal action, as too would many of the sex mods.

DreamingGirl wrote: If you don't like Nexus 'making money' off your mods, you are free to set up your own site to host them on, get advertizement and see how much you actually earn from it :)

greggorypeccary wrote: I know. I never said they can't make money. You are mis- paraphrazing

macintroll wrote: quote : "I suppose you could make money from ads if you allowed them inside the actual mod... I am not sure of the legality of that however, interesting thought."
Argh no please not that ! some brand have already much more ad they deserve in bethesda games (nuka cola ? ^^ )
I'm just speaking of a "generic" web banner on the mod page, no more, no less.

Do not expect to be rich with this, but you still can have some $ reward.

What I mean is, if you don't like it, DO something abut it instead of complaining about it, that will never get you anywhere. There are always other options! :)

sunshinenbrick · April 30, 2015

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639, #24804809, #24805479, #24805499, #24806059, #24806324, #24806514, #24806754, #24806814, #24806854, #24807069, #24807204, #24807289, #24807309, #24807344, #24807574, #24807704, #24807719, #24807814, #24807909, #24808129, #24808364, #24808374, #24808739, #24808754, #24809559, #24809844, #24809854, #24809864, #24810014, #24810319, #24810439, #24810934 are all replies on the same post.

DaddyDirection wrote:

greggorypeccary wrote: Read my post, I used the nexus and it was very nice. It is a little blind to the fact that it does very well on the labors of un paid modders. It does not share the wealth with the ones that earn it for them. since you get free mods it seems fine to you. If you read my post I think you'll find that what I find is shameful really is that the nexus expects you to pay the modders. I think most of that onus is on them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The dirty secret here is Greggory gets free mods too. He's been enjoying the work of other people in the community for years. He's used the free utilities and resources provided to the community for free as well. But instead of paying-it-forward like all of the mod authors whose work he has enjoyed, he now wants to profit off of what others have allowed him to do.

greggorypeccary wrote: Its no dirty secret. I have been a contributing member of this community for some time. I'm proud of my contributions and any one can see them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Gregory, I see exactly zero contributions from you. Are you one of those modders who threw a temper tantrum and hid all your mods?

greggorypeccary wrote: You could hope but you'd be wrong.

pintocat wrote: greggorypeccary has a mod. You, on the other hand, have zero. If you've got no contributions to the community, you have no place talking down to someone who actually has.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: So all of this crying from Gregory over a single mod? Hilarious. If your mod is so wonderful, why don't you try and sell it to Bethesda? They could incorporate it into their next DLC.

sunshinenbrick wrote: No offence to any mod creator but money is not the only thing people can contribute.

greggorypeccary wrote: Vesuvius1745

The more you say the more apparent your ignorance becomes.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Sunshine is right. The "well, umm, what have you contributed?" reply is just a way to avoid addressing the points made.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm being serious Greggory, and not insulting you. If your mods are so great, why don't you try and sell them to Bethesda or some other game company? Crying about not being able to sell them on Valve on the Nexus is a pointless endeavor.

Or better yet, why not get a job at a game company? I used to work at Electronic Arts in the early 2000s. Redwood Shores in California. The pay is good, the benefits are good, and you get to work on games for a living.

greggorypeccary wrote: Again I'm not crying. I'm fine, my mod was free and always will be. My payment was friends and knowledge. If i were to do more I'd want money. If that makes me a greedy monster taking away your free stuff in your eyes, so be it. I'll sleep tonight.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Fair enough, Gregory. I used to create mods for Morrowind. My payment was the enjoyment of doing it. I've started a few mods for Skyrim, and if I ever get around to finishing them, they will be released for free as well. There are many reasons I wouldn't want to get paid, but one of them is because I have enjoyed the free content other people like you have given to the community over the years. It wouldn't seem right to take payment. It's kind of like those "give a penny, take a penny" bowls you see at convenience stores. Or the person in front of you at Starbucks who paid for your drink.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Greggory I really like your mod, it looks like a lot of time and effort went in to it and I think you should never let anyone tell you how to or not to follow your ambitions. However the system that Valvethesda tried to set up was exploitative, turning honest do good modders into slave developers and customer support workers and making people who buy mods, cash cows.

I have no problem with encouraging people to form collective game development projects that can become paid for content, but that was not what they put on the table. Realise your own worth and fight for a better deal from the hand in the sky.

greggorypeccary wrote: I'm not even talking about Steam or Bethesda. I like Bethesda, A lot. To me it is the Nexus that should be nuturing the modders mainly because they profit from them. The nexus is the one who benefits from the community and the modders. Its time to give something back. They stand to the side while the community fights between modders and users and it plays into their hands while they pretend they don't realize they are part of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do. I agree that there needs to be a higher mandate of cohesion, however a top-down approach can only do so much.

If you have not already have a read of the posts in the following Nexus forum:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

While this only scratches the surface it can hopefully start a communal consensus on what role we all play in this giant machine.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm not sure Nexus is making a profit. It was my understanding that Dark0ne runs this site at a loss. A labor of love.

Capitalism is the best economic system we've discovered thus far, but it has its flaws. One of those flaws is there is always a "race to the bottom"--hamburger patties get smaller, the toaster burns out faster, and just the general overall quality of everything slowly goes down over time. And all in the name of maximizing profits. There is no reason to believe this paradigm wouldn't happen with game mods.

Take a great mod like Falskaar for example. The author put a ton of time and energy into this expansion, and churned out a mod that, in my opinion, is heads above anything Bethesda has tried to peddle to us. Now what if he had been contracted by Bethesda to make it? All of a sudden there would be a deadline by which they expect it to be ready. They want it now now now because time is money, and the author wouldn't be able to take his time to put in all the details he otherwise would have. There might even be bugs he didn't have time to fix, or other shortcuts he had to take to make sure Bethesda had their product on time (and in corporate-America it ceases to be "art", and becomes a nameless PRODUCT--a widget on an assembly line whose sole purpose is to increase profit). I believe this is what happened to Skyrim. The programmers were rushed, and released a bug-filled, and partially incomplete product. In fact I think they just quickly ported it from the console version.

Not to mention that the number of mods required to make Skyrim enjoyable (say at $1.99 each) is out of the budget for most gamers. I know I have over 100 mods myself. This means that save for a few exceptional mods, most mod authors won't be making very much because the gamers simply cannot afford it. There will be all these mods on some paysite that never (or only rarely) get downloaded, and eventually the mod authors will stop writing mods because unless they are churning out the next Falsksaar, it just isn't worth their time. This will most likely kill the modding community because by then Bethesda will probably have taken steps to close down sites like the Nexus because they will want to maintain their monopoly.

macintroll wrote: Quote Sunshinenbrick "This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do."

Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part.

ChizFoShiz wrote: While you're right about the nexus, you're way off base about falskaar given that it was made as Alexander's "application" for employment from Bethesda, while I'm sure Alexander loves to make content and all and I wouldn't dream of making assumptions of what his stance would be here, his mod had the specific goal of gainful employment in mind.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Whether he put Falskaar on his resume or not is irrelevant. He worked on it for free, and gave it to the community for free, and he had no idea whether it would get him a job for sure or not.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Nexus is not allowed to make direct profit from mods, as I gather from the legal premise Bethesda has put down in its EULA (mods must be free). By paying people through revenue they would have to include taxes and therefore be bordering on being classified as employees and would in many ways become competition to Bethesda. Youtube own the content uploaded, Nexus does not it is still technically Bethesda's property.

Additionally I think Nexus would rather avoid the headache of having to decide who is able to enter such a scheme and who is not. Especially as the creation of a mod is rarely the work of a single individual.

The crunch is Bethesda are very flexible on this issue because they make A LOT of money out of it, steer the money in other directions and they will quickly bare their teeth I can assure you.

macintroll wrote: @sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.
The money is given ONLY because of popularity of the youtubber's page and the number of ads clicked.
2) Youtube is not the proprietary of your videos.
3) For multi-modders mod, i think it's there own work to share retribution % to the different persons who have work together, not nexus not any one else.
Moderation has to occur for sure, but they show by the past that they can do this very well (banning bad boys & girls)
4) Well yes bethesda can do what they want with their game, and also can stop the nexus tomorrow if they want.

freedom613 wrote: @Sunshine, is this in response to Mac's post: "Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part."

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Again, Sunshine is right. The Youtube thing people keep bringing up is also a false analogy, because intellectual property laws make a distinction between profiting off of someone's IP directly, or from the incidental use of that IP.

With Youtube, Bethesda's IP is not being violated. You don't get to play Skyrim for free, nor do you benefit from anything for free that would normally defer to Bethesda for some sort of profit. You are just watching someone ELSE play Skyrim--and that person (presumably) bought Skyrim and has a legal right to not only play it, but to film themselves playing it, and then they can do whatever they want with the video of them playing Skyrim.

When you design something with their creation kit, you are directly utilizing their IP from start to finish, and your mod requires Skyrim to play. Bethesda's EULA allows you to trade the mod with friends, put it on a website, or do a lot of things with it as long as you aren't trying to make a profit.

greggorypeccary wrote: macintroll said
@sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.

Yes but the Nexus takes all of the advertising money already so they would have to part with some and some subscription money too. If they are willing.

Marstonn wrote: No, the youtube have "networks", these guys have deals with devs and are allowed to monetize on game videos, the youtuber must be part of a network (Machinima, Youtube, etc).

Edit, example: MMoxreview the guy from Skyrim Mods Weekly is a part of Machinima, so that's why he can monetize.

greggorypeccary wrote: I must admit to complete ignorance to how that works. I will check it out though.

sunshinenbrick wrote: The money from advertising goes to Nexus first and they would have to distribute it. Yes you are right that Nexus could strike a deal with the ad companies that the revenue is split prior to this but that is very dodgy from Bethesda's point of view... and well Google own ad sense and licence uploaded videos so they can do what they want.

Google do not own the video but they own youtube and therefor the right for your video to be uploaded to it.

Modders have enough to do without having to write business plans and start calculating how to split revenue. If they are organised enough to be making that much money out of it then they will most likely get a call from Bethesda asking them if they would like a job.

However if Bethesda could get them to become self employed (which is what the recent experiment would have entailed) then they would prefer to do that as they have little to no responsibility for them... but still make a load of money.

macintroll wrote: @Vesuvius1745
Well i should make videos instead of mods ^^

To be more serious : you miss an important point :
Bethesda allow site like nexus to gain $500.000 a year from ads, while being a platform for downloading free mods.. made with the creation kit and their assets. And the sole maker of some of the said mods would not be able to gain some buck from the same kind of earnings ???
crazy.

Again the mod is not SELL, the mod is free, the mod doesn't give a cent to the modder, only the ads give money. And that's absolutely legal, beacause i can already put ads on my own website showing my mods with no risks.

@sunshinenbrick : sorry miss but you should learn how adsense/adwords works. and nor google, nor youtube own your videos they are plateform providers period.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'd like to know where you are getting this financial info about the Nexus. It was my understanding they consistently run at a loss. Running a popular website takes a lot of time, and one that uses a ton of bandwidth can be very expensive.

sunshinenbrick wrote: If your video violates copyright they can take it down immediately without your consent. They own the licence for your video to be distributed on their network.

One should not try compare the youtube model to the Nexus, modder, Bethesda, Valve model... they really are very different beasts.

macintroll wrote: @Marstonn
Anybody is able to monetize his video on Google.
Being in a "network" (what does it really mean in your mind ?) is not necessary , but for sure better for the number of views.

and concerning what can be "game press" well of course they are allowed, they are free advertiser for the games companies ^^ new games are send to them for reviews , even presents etc..

What is not authorized is to diffuse a video with Copyright content (the video itself, music etc...)

macintroll wrote: quote "You cannot compare the youtube setup to the Nexus, modder, Bethesda, Valve model... they really are very different beasts."

Well so explain me why Nexus is allowed to make $500.000+ / year in ads earnings...
then explain me why i can't make some $ the same way, thanks.

macintroll wrote: @Vesuvius1745

Some days ago Dark0ne said he was spending 500.000$ a year only for servers renting and additional costs. So i take this as a base.. but it could be far more in fact ^^
As the only nexus earnings are Ads.. (and some memberships) .. it's easy to understand how much is gain from ads earnings.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I don't understand how you are extrapolating profit from what Dark0ne is saying he spends to keep the site running. It sounds to me like this is a huge money sink for him.

greggorypeccary wrote: It isn't

macintroll wrote: @Vesuvius1745

Ok if you think so, but what lead you to think this ? have you found some numbers ?
A company (black tree gaming) own the nexus, and make money like any company, has operating costs like any other , at least the goal is to maintain an equilibrium. No one can work loosing money for long you know, and Nexus is growing "open to all games", it doesn't sound like a loosing company.
So if you have at least $500.000 to spend each year to make your business active, you need to earn at minima as much money somewhere.
And apart from nexus network what are the incomes ? none i'm aware of.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Please remember the money made by the Nexus is for the use of the Nexus, not for individual mods. This is why they are allowed to do it.

In legal terms when one donates for a mod they are not paying for the mod they are actually donating to the modder themselves, this is why Bethesda turn a blind eye. It is advantageous to them and it is also somewhat on the fence legally on whether the donation was for the mod or just because you like to support what the modder does. It really is a setup that is based on good will a trust, both from Bethesda's point of view and Nexus and its users.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I have no evidence of anything. I was going on Dark0ne's word that he runs this site at a loss. I have no reason to believe otherwise, and I would be surprised if a site like this was making any significant amount of profit. He spends a lot of money on upkeep, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is making at least that from donations/ads. I have friends who made a ton of money off of Bitcoins, and are now engaging in labors of love that are also money sinks.

Do you have some information the rest of us don't?

macintroll wrote: quote : " Do you have some information the rest of us don't?"
All key financial info on companies are publicly available (thus it's last year for most yet) and detailled info can be bought if you want.
Google the company name you'll find more info. (not very difficult)

I'm not here to accuse nexus of anything, just to point the fact that they are allowed to make money from ads, is it enough, is it too much ?, it's not the point of my discussion, honestly I don't care, the "service" is good here, i really appreciate what Dark0ne has made and how it helps the "community".

But if they can do it, rightfully gaining money providing access to modders content ...why not also the modders who provide each part of the content of this site ?.
I see it as a win-win solution : free mods for end users and modders rewarded with some $

Again in this formula, it's not the mod which is giving money to the modder, it's the audience it generate like elsewhere, exactly what does the nexus to pay their bills.

greggorypeccary wrote: The world is full of hugely profitable companies whose whose image is " We're your friend. We're here to help you" . And don't let the words Non Profit fool you either. My advise is that when they offer you the Kool-Aide tomorrow.....Don't drink it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I suppose you could make money from ads if you allowed them inside the actual mod... I am not sure of the legality of that however, interesting thought.

My idea behind this is you could put Coke billboards up in Fallout, for example, and gain revenue from that. Problem is even if this were legal, I'm not sure people would like it.

I think Bethesda actually have to look at where they stand on individual modders making money from advertising their mods on the Nexus, or elsewhere for that matter. Either way it is not a decision the Nexus can make. It could work to Bethesda's advantage as they will be gaining free marketing. Only real issue is the type of mod, does it adhere to what Bethesda want to be associated with. Lord of the Rings mods would bring unwanted legal action, as too would many of the sex mods.

DreamingGirl wrote: If you don't like Nexus 'making money' off your mods, you are free to set up your own site to host them on, get advertizement and see how much you actually earn from it :)

greggorypeccary wrote: I know. I never said they can't make money. You are mis- paraphrazing

macintroll wrote: quote : "I suppose you could make money from ads if you allowed them inside the actual mod... I am not sure of the legality of that however, interesting thought."
Argh no please not that ! some brand have already much more ad they deserve in bethesda games (nuka cola ? ^^ )
I'm just speaking of a "generic" web banner on the mod page, no more, no less.

Do not expect to be rich with this, but you still can have some $ reward.

DreamingGirl wrote: What I mean is, if you don't like it, DO something abut it instead of complaining about it, that will never get you anywhere. There are always other options! :)

greggorypeccary wrote: I'm not complaining. I'm pushing for change.I thank you all for your opinions but I must be going. Twilight Zone is on.

@ macintroll

Ha! No, I don't like the idea myself either, just thinking aloud :)

EDIT: I could cope with a banner. Beats some of the noisey video ADS you get, not that I see them when logged in.

EDIT2: MODS?! I meant ADS... it's been a busy few days. Typo fixed now *blush* Edited April 30, 2015 by sunshinenbrick

mizzix20 · April 30, 2015

With the proper vetting and approach paid modding could work and be a benefit to our modding community. Do I agree with or like the way this particular case was handled? no. I recently listened to several podcasts that Gopher released on sound cloud and I have to say that if an approach was taken that resembled what he suggests in them I would probably consider paying for mods. the key though is that paid mods would have to have an added value to the game and be new and unique not an update to a new mod.

Put it this way. If Falkskaar was originally released as a paid mod, would you have paid for it? how many of us shelled out extra cash for HearthFires? when Falkskaar adds 3-5 times the content? Falksaar adds almost as much new areas and questlines as Dawngaurd and Dragonborn combined. Given some additional incentive by knowing that they would be compensated the mod author could have gotten better quality voice acting, better integrated it with Skyrim and a whole lot more.

Bethesda could have probably bought the mod from the author, polished it and then released it as a DLC and people would have bought it.

I am not saying that we should all put a price tag on mods or not support free modding. What I am saying is that I think that done properly that both could coexist.

Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

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