Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[diyeath]

In response to post #24748294. #24748909, #24748959, #24749014, #24749054, #24749074, #24749089, #24749114, #24749169, #24749269, #24749289, #24749409, #24749439, #24749529, #24749564, #24749574, #24749674, #24749709, #24749814, #24749884, #24749889, #24749954, #24750114, #24750204, #24750249, #24750254, #24750279, #24750544, #24750564, #24750709, #24750814, #24750904, #24751449, #24751489, #24751899, #24751974, #24752079, #24752334, #24752454, #24753799, #24754219, #24754259, #24754609, #24754739, #24754979, #24755419, #24755704, #24755774, #24755999, #24756039, #24756394, #24756489, #24756599, #24756669, #24756944, #24757404, #24757709, #24757794, #24757819, #24757959, #24758109, #24758244, #24758549, #24758604, #24758779, #24758789, #24759069, #24760799, #24760824, #24765454, #24765899, #24766564, #24766884, #24767039, #24767164, #24769074, #24769604, #24770129, #24770469, #24770524, #24770899, #24771494, #24771584, #24771729, #24771929, #24772554, #24773334, #24811954, #24812669, #24813194, #24813974 are all replies on the same post.

mannygt wrote:

user134 wrote: Or maybe those people missed/forgot to hit the button/don't think it matters.

Stevensonzilla wrote: That's a fair point.

From my side, I can tell you that I have downloaded a lot of mods that I simply haven't gotten around to trying out yet. Gray Cowl, for instance, is sitting around on my drive waiting for my next playthrough. If that gives the impression that I'm unappreciative, it really is unintentional.

I do, however, have to admit that I'm guilty. There are mods that I have used and enjoyed and just never gotten around to endorsing or commenting on. I have no excuse other than laziness.

Timarot wrote: While I entirely agree that there should be more endorcements - unique downloads does not traslate into "people who love mod". Its more like "amoumt of unique ip-pc combination to which mod was downloaded"

mcguffin wrote: Exactly.

Mod users act actually, for a vast majority, like a *consumer*, but without paying the price. Some of them also are angry when updates take time, or when they have issues.

I have seen few people saying that they have 200 mods installed, and because of that they could not afford to pay them.
but when you look at their profile, you see very little amount of comments or endorsements.

Most of people only leech content without caring of anything.

Seren4XX wrote: Those numbers alone are an accomplishment and ode to the modders who put out those mods. Endorsing is forgotten easily for a number of reasons that don't have anything to do with being grateful or not.

Ottemis wrote: It's a fact there are parts of this and any modding community in it's users that have zero real concept of the amount of work that goes into modding and think rather loosely or little at all on the matter, even taking an entitled stance rather than an appreciative one.
While it's 'normal' to forget to endorse or comment on mods you've truly enjoyed, and easy to think modders do it for themselves and out of their own volition that does not negate that modders do thrive on positive feedback from the community and more appreciation and healthy views on what modding entails certainly wouldn't hurt the modding community as a whole.

zzjay wrote: many dont even know what an endosement is..theyre not into the community,and just like to download mods for their game

shinji72 wrote: That's a good point. And before the introductions of the pop ups on Nexus (pointing you to the unendorsed mods) the percentage were far far lower.

Kioma wrote: Extremely good point, mannygt. Kudos.

I'll admit that I'm guilty of this. I have a tendency to download a mod, forget it's there, get surprised when I load the game and find that I did in fact install it, and then play the game for several hours solid and simply forget to go back to the mod page and endorse it. Not an excuse, just a fact, but one I'm intending to correct. As I type this I'm gearing up to endorse every single mod I currently run and I encourage anyone in my boat (ie. the forgetful boat) to do the same.

Don't forget to endorse the everloving s#*! out of the mods you love. People need encouragement. Someone can do stellar work and still get disheartened because even though fifty people posted 'nice mod, gj' on their page, only a fraction of those people bothered to endorse.

mannygt wrote: Please, don't get me wrong, I don't want to force your mouse to point on "endorse" button. I'm explaining how the percentage works in the Nexus. As I said before, I appreciated the users who decided to "follow" me and I always given answers to their questions because this is the real spirit of community (IMHO). Modders and Users working together to improve and make better mods.

I know that the laziness percentage for saying "thank you" or clicking the endorsement button may exist, and also it exists the percentage of who didn't liked the mod, but I cannot believe that mostly of the mods in the Nexus it only have 5%-10% of users attention.

mannygt wrote: @user134. This is from your profile:

Joined: 15 September 2013 Last active: 12:28, 28 Apr 2015

Posts: 8 Topics: 0 Files tagged: 0 File images: 0 Endorsements given: 0

samo101 wrote: It's not really a case of being grateful as much as it is of participation. People who don't participate in this community probably don't endorse mods.

Furthermore, it makes no difference in the long run. If 10% of users endorse mods they like then you still end up with the most popular mods being endorsed the most, the numbers are just lower.

PROMETHEUS_ts wrote: Well I agree on that , the actual system doesn't even discriminate between good and well made mods and just "popularity" ones .

Some crap mods do make up to hot file and stay there a whole week hoarding endorsements just because of popularity or because they made a laught on some . But Other well tought , planned, finely craftet that took months to do are left in the voidness of unpopularity .
some gems are really hidden deep into the vaults of Nexus and are not even known of .
Even the same search categorizes the mods mostly by endorsements wich increase the popularity of the popular ones , rather than have a better fair system of classification of mods according to the work done for making them .

mljh11 wrote: Why is an endorsement important? I'm not trolling - I really want to know.

I only just bought Skyrim Legendary Edition last year, and only got into trying mods this year. Therefore I'm very new to the culture here at the Nexus.

Other mod sites don't even have an endorsement button; they may have a 10 point rating system or something. Is such a system better or worse than Nexus' endorsement system?

bangunagung wrote: Well, even Gopher forgot to endorse sometimes.

bangunagung wrote: @ mljh11

That's just a way of saying "thanks for the mod, I like it". The mod author doesn't get anything from it. It just helps spreading the word whether the mod is good or not and encourage more people to try it.

It's not an entirely different system from rating, just a little bit more general.

ramccoid wrote: Don't forget the protest mod, 3,233 unique downloads to 1,438 endorsements which is the only mod ever to reach nearly 50% ratio.
People didn't feel lazy or forgetful about that one. It shows the hypocrisy clearly, make the effort when it suits.

Sigurd44 wrote: I forgot to endorse a lot of mods in my first year here on Nexus. I was just to involved in learning how to install mods correctly at all, learning Skyrim folder and file structures etc. Over time I got used to do it. I guess in the meanwhile almost every mod I once used or still use has an endorsement.

That's just my experience, I still can't explain why so many mods with extremely high download rates have so less endorsements.

mkess wrote: No, I think this action from valve this weekend was a wakeup call for many users. Let's wait and see.

mljh11 wrote: @bangunagung:

Thanks for your reply.

So would I be right to say that you think the endorse button is basically a "thanks" button? If so, I would generally agree with you on this. Which brings me to my next question...

Do mod makers make mods because they want to be thanked?

riverreveal wrote: I think a lot of people, Im including myself here, take the modding community for granted to an extent. Oblivion was the first game I started getting mods for, Skyrim was the first game where I spent a good proportion of my time playing around with the mods.

If there is already a community in place with 1000s of members, 1000s of endorsements, millions of downloads then some people think they arent needed. A lot of people have come out of the woodwork in the last few days (again myself included) and I can totally understand a mod author saying, why are you speaking up now about us not getting money now, but not even thanking us when you were grabbing our free mods. I get that.

I have never in my head taken a mod author for granted, but I do realise that my actions over the last few years has been exactly that. If one good thing does come out of all this then I hope a lot more people are going to recognise the same thing and be a bit more proactive towards endorsements and donations.

I really hope Beth and Valve find a way to get you guys rewarded that benefits the community as well. The system they used sucked, but there was a pro there as well.

user134 wrote: @mannygt: Yeah, those are statistics on my profile. What is your point? =/

mljh11 wrote: The thing is - mod makers (typically) make mods because
1) they themselves love the game, and
2) they love the idea of sharing cool stuff they make for the game with other people.

I say this as an ex-modder myself (for other games, not Skyrim). The sites I uploaded my mods to didn't have an endorse / thanks button at all - and guess what? I never got bothered thinking about whether people were thankful for my mods.

At all.

Seriously.

If you're a modder who DOES MODDING BECAUSE YOU LOVE THE GAME, just carry on. Who cares about a number that says how many people endorse or thank you for your mod? It's just that - a stupid number. Please don't get upset because of this number or the lack of it; there are waaaaay more worthwhile things in life that you could get upset over.

jet4571 wrote: Heya Mannygt I think I have endorsed one of your mods or you one of mine.. both... Or just recognize your name. Anyway this one gets me....

"but the most of the users just download the mod without saying any f***ing word. "

A simple "Thanks for uploading" is worth a $5. A "Thanks." is worth $2.50. A "Thanks." with a paragraph describing what you liked is priceless. I just uploaded an Oblivion mod 2 days ago and not one comment and that depresses me. I feel as though the mod isn't quite bad enough to get hate and not good enough for a thanks. I want to know if you are happy with it just like any other modder. If a part of it doesn't get you then please tell me in a constructive way.

I am sure many other modder will agree to that.

jaffa5 wrote: I don't agree that just because people ether choose not to or forget to endorse a mod that they have downloaded automaticly makes them ungreatful. There are a number of reasons why some one might not endorse a mod or even comment thank you.

Personally I have only given 66 endorsments on this site since i joined in 2011 but i am not ungreatful. In fact I am massively greatful to the people who spend countless hours creating mods for me to enjoy. The truth is i often forget to endorse mods unless they have really really impressed me. in those cases i will not only endorse i will vote for file of the month and possibley leave a comment.

I think it's nieve to just generalise that every one who downloads and dosn't endose or comment is inherantly ungreatful.

Amyr wrote: Endorsement system should be gone anyway. It's completely useless.

What would you gain if Falskaar had 250K Endorsements instead of 60K? Nothing. It's just a number.

What we actually need is a review system. You can have 200 reviews and it seems like a really really small number compared to 60K Endorsement, but wouldn't it be better to have 98% approved rating with those reviews? Rather than having 200K mindless clicks because Nexus keeps forcing you to?

jet4571 wrote: Ok how about rude? if ungrateful is too insulting that shouldn't be because that's kinda what you are saying. If you download so many mods in a download session that you cannot remember where they came from then you are lucky your game still works.

Also an endorsement is a thank you. If you enjoy a mod then hit the button. The endorsement does not do anything but tell the author thanks. There is no secret files of the month or anything. Endorsements are not in limited supply so you can endorse every mod you downloaded that you liked.

AN Endorsement is NOT a measurement in quality. Do not think of them as that because they are a simple thank you .

Amelli wrote: I don't think it's fair to call the users ungrateful just because they haven't hit the endorse button. That's very petty imo.

I for one know I haven't endorsed nearly as many mods as I should have, why? Several reasons
1. The main one being I have a life that is very busy and doesn't 100% revolve around Skyrim.
2. When I do come back to Skyrim in my very limited free time, I'm a mod hoarder, and spend more time messing around in MO trying to settle on a mod list I'm happy to play with and testing all those mods out in game, whilst figuring out why my game CTDs, which mod did it or which mods don't pal up together nicely, then I actually spend time playing the game.
3. To endorse I have to have downloaded a mod. To endorse I have to have spent time testing that mod. As endorsing certifies I've tested and I am happy with that mod. That's it's something special. Some mods take longer to test then others.
4. My mind isn't what it used to be and I can easily forget after all those other points that I need to return to the nexus and endorse my mods without getting distracted by yet another uber awesome mod on the nexus front page. That advertising doing its job right after all right?
5. After a few months I find my way out of the mire and realise I haven't endorsed still. So when I see an update for a mod I love and realise I haven't endorsed, I kick myself and hit the endorse button.

Should I feel I'm ungrateful for not endorsing? NO. Should feel upset at MannyG's words? YES.

I'm not able to speak for all users. But I'm sure there are many like me who would feel very pissed off at being called ungrateful.

And yes I can understand that there may be some out there who just download and don't give a toss, but I can bet you that the majority of us do give a toss, we just have very busy lives, and we sometimes don't realise what the nagging thing we need to do at the back of our minds is trying to tell us....umm what is that thing I had to do?....Oh yes, frickin endorse. It's not that I'm ungrateful. It's just that when I endorse, it's in between the few moments of free time I have to actually relax and have some me time. What would I rather be doing with that time?

If a modder doesn't feel they are being shown enough respect or endorsements all they have to do is hide their mod. That's their choice that they are entitled to. But users aren't forced to say boo to anything, just like modders aren't forced to Mod.

Sakorona wrote: Yes, how DARE YOU demand at least acknowledgement of your work! [/sarcasm]

Seriously. Go endorse. Donate, if you feel inclined to. It's a few second action and creates a sense of community.

Angm4r wrote: I have to try a mod before i endorse it, i will come back then and endorse it if i think it is worth if i really like it i will even donate for it.

Amelli wrote: @Sakorona
Well at least this week I have the time to catch up on nexus mods. I'm stuck at home cos my darling three yo gave me conjunctivitis, I have a full blown cold, and I'm most likely going to be made redundant in the next week, so my stress levels are a tad high right now. Then all this just when I was waiting for all the great new updated mods like Frostfall 3.0 to come out to cheer me up. Ah well.

I'd donate if I could, but looks like I won't be able to spare any change to do so.

@Dark0ne
Might be good to have some site tutorials (forgive me if there are already) on the features on nexus, where to find them and what they mean, and highlight that in the news every month to remind old and new users alike. As it seems a lot of users don't know how to use or where a lot of features of the nexus are.

mannygt wrote: @Amelli: I don't think you're on the 90%-95% side of the users that simply grabs a mod and vanishes. Your profile is clear: you give endorsements for mods you liked. I know that you have some mods to endorse but doesn't makes you a "ungrateful". I'm not ungrateful as you said, because if I WAS ungrateful then I would started to sell the mods betraying all my followers. On the contrary, I'm grateful to them, instead. My Gray Cowl of Nocturnal is ready for v1.1, this thanks to who participated on reporting to me bugs and ideas. Same thing for my other mods. Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods.

jad31te wrote: Mannygt,

I have been here just a short time.. you are one of the very best most helpful modders I have dealt with on the nexus, you have always been more then helpful anytime I have had a question, But I can not say this for all. I have asked genuine questions to others only to be snubbed, I have left over 297 endorsements and about 70 comments.. until this Issue I have never posted on the forum so I know all of my comments were feedback related.

Just last week I had downloaded a mod I was having issues with, the author of said mod was on the forum answering question, but he just snubbed me over, would not help me and I really was genuinely stuck.. I do read everything about a mod before I install. luckily for me I was able to figure it out alone, but my point is not everyone is like you.. not everyone is helpful and some are downright rude!

I also have another questions about endorsements, I downloaded a very cute and unique mod that was put up recently, the author had received many positive comments and 12 endorsements by the time I had seen the mod. I downloaded it and ran the course of getting it situated in my mod list.. start the game and searched over an hour trying to locate the boat, BUT i could find no boat, I spent another hour reorganizing my modlist trying to make it work because after all.. 12 other people had made it work.. it must have been on my end and I was afraid yet again to ask the author a stupid question.

Finally out of frustration, I did approach him or her.. and you know what? they had made a small mistake, being new and never loading a mod here before, they had accisently loaded the wrong file, I was very happy to have assisted him in getting it all right. and now I have my boat :) but my point is that it had 12 endorsements from people who had not even bothered to load the mod.

I just wonder with how this current system is implemented, how long it even could have took him to realize the error :s

anyways, thank you so much for always being helpful.. but not all are like you

user134 wrote: @mannygt: "Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods."

People mindlessly hammer away at the "like" button on Facebook all day. Like all statistics, endorsements should be taken with a grain of salt.

SiniVII wrote: Numbers, numbers, numbers... Where 5 to 10 percent is factual information, and the remaining is plain speculation. It's very easy to say "Well those who don't fall within these statistics obviously think X, Y, and Z", but you really don't have any evidence of that, it's just pure speculation and finger-pointing without any real basis for it.

It's ridiculous, just because someone falls within the endorsement statistic, doesn't mean the other side of it are automatically ungrateful mod-hogging bastards.

If anything you should use your download counter as an indicator for your mods popularity, rather than obsess over endorsement for your work, when comments and the download-counter is already enough of an indicator.

For a long time I didn't endorse mods simply because I have the attention-span of a goldfish, that does in no way mean I am an ungrateful bastard who doesn't appreciate the modding community.

If I do happen to revisit any of the mods I downloaded previously by chance, I will endorse nowadays.

Amelli wrote: Manny, don't get me wrong I love you as a modder. You've made spectacular mods.

It's the way you worded your post...

...but the Nexus seems to be a lair of ungrateful people.

That makes you sound like your sounding out the community as being wholly ungrateful. And that's what upsets me.

Perhaps rather then nitpick, we need to put our heads together and come up with some suggestions to Dark0ne to make nexus even easier to use and make some 'idiots guides' to everything nexus and have these very obvious on the main pages of nexus. That way the community is reminded of the great assets the nexus provides. The modders being one of those.

Only by working together can we make this community thrive again and heal these festering wounds.

mannygt wrote: @SiniVII: 1 person every 10 or 20 endorsed SkyUI or Falskaar. What do you mean for "someone"?
@Amelli: Statistics are clear. I'm sorry if you're upset but, again, I have no doubt that you support modders.

MacAban wrote: This raises two interesting points for me.

First, if endorsements are important for the modder, education needs to be done on that point. I don't know how to make it better than it's already is, honestly, since most mods have a reminder in the style "if you like it endorse it", but apparently this isn't enough to raise awareness. Maybe posting threads on the forums and sites where the community of players lurk, like Steam forums? A lot of players come to the Nexus only to download the mod, and speak about it somewhere else if they like it. As for posting in a mod thread, I always considered it was for bugs and feedback, not to thank the modder. I realize now it means that most modders whose work I've liked don't even know it except from that tiny endorsement and sometimes a vote for FOTM, but honestly I thought it was how it was supposed to work. I don't frequent the Nexus forums, maybe I should make an account there and post in the thread of every mod I like? OR should I start using the mod thread itself to give thanks?

Second, I looked at my profile by curiosity after reading your post, and I saw only 11 or 12 endorsements in there. What? I know, for a fact, with absolute certainty, that I have endorsed a lot of them through the NMM at one point or another. I know, for a fact, that most of the 150 mods I used with regularity had that little yellow star in NMM. My profile said I didn't endorse Frostfall, which is one of my favorite mods ever and I've used since I've started to play Skyrim: there's absolutely no way it's true, if I had endorsed only one mod in all my years it would have been this one. Yet I saw my endorsements for other mods, but not this one. Doesn't an endorsement in NMM translate in an endorsement here, or doesn't just it show on my profile? I don't care how my profile looks, honestly, but I'd like to think the mods did get the endorsement.

mcguffin wrote: this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

SiniVII wrote: @mannygt

Are you saying those 10 and 20 who didn't endorse are simply mod-hoggers and ungrateful bastards? And you're relying on your own statistic to push this blanket-statement? I'm sorry but you've got nothing. Word of mouth, It's rather powerful. One of those 10 people might've spread the word about the mod which made the number increase to every 20 person instead of 10, and thanks to word of mouth they may have attracted another endorser which made your oh-so precious counter to rise ever so slightly.

Obsessing over the endorsement counter is the most asinine way I've seen to determine whether or not your mod is popular, because IF there is anything your statistics have shown us is that the endorsement counter is simply not an accurate measurement of people's enjoyment of a mod.

Download counts and comments is what you should use as your indicator of popularity, you check the statistic of how many times they've been downloaded vs the feedback you receive in the comments, that gives you a measurement of a mods popularity, NOT through a counter people tend to click as a courtesy as if you were tipping a waiter at a restaurant.

mannygt wrote: I answered you in the other post.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: you are wrong. popularity is not the point.
People actually showing you they care is the point.


It's perfectly possible to have a mod with a very low popularity but a strong little community around it.
If nobody care, you do the stuff for yourself, then you let go.

mannygt wrote:

this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

Priceless.

SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

You can't expect every single individual to shower you with praise, that's simply not how it is. People will download and move on all the time, sometimes they'll be forced to make an account but that's the extent they'll go to because at the end of the day they want to play their vidya-games.

Eventually modders will have a place where they can host their mods and put them behind a pay-wall where they can actually get fair rates compared to steamthesda hogging 75% of the revenue, no doubt about that, hopefully there'll be quality-checks in place as well by that time as well...

However, till then expecting to be showered with praise from every single downloader is unrealistic, and nothing short of delving into the deepest darkest corners of delusion.

Of course, if you wanted that to happen, NEXUS could always make commenting and endorsing MANDATORY for downloads. That'd make people more popular I'm sure, where you'd get half-assed annoyed comments about Nexus system, rather than people who shower you with praise because they actually want to, and think you honestly deserve it.

You don't want praise from everyone, and that will never happen anyway.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: I don't ask for mandatory at all.
But the 10% stat is quite bad, to say to least, and doesn't send a very good signal.

Altamhyr wrote: I'd like to say a little thing. I'm french, i can read english easyly. I have Many friends, here on nexus, who are able to use it but cańt understand you...

donsolidad wrote: @mannygt

I was only made aware of your mods through "The Gray Cowl. . ." which I think is fantastic, in fact, exactly the sort of mod that keeps me coming back to Skyrim. To me, this whole debacle with Steam is a reminder for those of us who are mod users to be more generous with our praise and our donations.

SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

The only thing those 10 percents show is that the endorsement system is inadequate as a praise measurement, and is not something you should use as a base for your argument.

sdupp wrote: @ mannygt Agree with your post, but i don't think it was the only reason for some modders to sell mods as a greedy modder.

caffeinatedNetling wrote: Regarding the protest mod having lots of endorsements: Get people emotionally involved with the process of making the mod noticed, and of freaking course they're going to endorse.

macintroll wrote: It's just show that 90% of users are just leechers ^^

caffeinatedNetling wrote: I typically have "modding sessions" that literally last for days, going straight from vanilla to the setup I'll play through the following months (without even so much as updating anything, I lost too many saves already).
If I could endorse the mods I download in these sessions when I have them open, I would, but by the time the countdown before the endorsements are enabled reaches zero, I can't even remember what I have downloaded anymore.

EDIT: I went to my profile to actually look at what I have endorsed and it's pretty hilarious. 90% of my endorsements have been made from the download pop-up, on the same day during my last "modding rush".

sunshinenbrick wrote: This might be very unpopular but could a ratio counter between downloads and endorsements have any help in this particular situation. Later on when a proper well thought out and unexploitative polite paying system is eventually introduced (because it more than likely will) it could be expanded to that as well as a form of quality control.

The way it works, well it gives people a kinda nudge if they are deemed to be abusing the system. A better thought out version of how Steam tried to battle the stealing mod refund situation.

Would not be surprised if this wasn't just a big data collection exercise.

MacAban wrote: @ caffeinatedNetling

Account options > Download History, if you want to correct that. You can even endorse from there.

skinnytecboy wrote: This comment started very nicely.. actually put a smile on my face. I thought to myself "Ah finally they're all playing nicely". Let me dream a little more please :)

P.s. I for one enjoy making mods and playing mods and my motives are purely personal. However, it's always nice to know that people like what you do. Its nice to feel approval even if it isn't asked for.

So spread some love and hit those endorsement buttons my fine furry friends :)

myrrdin35 wrote: With everything that has happened, the very thing you bring up has been on my mind also but in a different way. I'm a mod user, I've tried so many times to make a mod but my brain just can't wrap around that CK. I love what mod authors have brought to my gaming and many times in surprising ways. The problem is I have limited ways to give feedback to mod authors. I can hit the "Endorse" button and/or make a
post on the mod page that usually gets buried very quickly. Neither of these options is ideal for mod authors and users.

I think the Nexus needs to take some time and make the site more user friendly. Right now we have the Top 100 (useless, same mods forever), the hot files (highlights some popular new mods, but they are gone too quickly), and then files of the month (which is buried on the side of the page and not prominent). I think a couple of things can be done so more mods get some exposure and helps us the mod
users interact with you guys the makers.

One, add a review area to the mod pages. And I mean real reviews not just your mod is great or it sucks. Talk about technical stuff, if a quest mod how long did it take, if a texture pack did it look good, and so on. Also make it so we can follow reviewers. Say someone is really good and I can trust their feedback, I would love a way to follow their reviews.

Two, a mod spotlight. It can be an old mod, new one, big or small. Just something that is different, works and could be a good addition to someones game. This could definately highlight some lesser known or older mods that people never new existed.

Three, an area where mod users could upload their mod lists with notes on what kind of playthrough they are for and how well the mods work together and maybe installation notes if needed. Say I wanted a survivalist playthrough or maybe a hardcore your gonna die one or a very well put together texture overhaul. I mean how many times have you seen people say recommend me some mods, but its never that simple. This would definately give more exposure to more mod makers. Also it would give people a base to work from.

Four, Make the files of the month more prominent. There usually is a mix of different mods that people are voting for and it deserves some better screen real
estate.

There are probably many more, these are just the ones I could think of right now. I don't know if any of this is doable or not. But I do know as a mod user, it is frustrating right now trying to give proper feedback. I will say mod makers and mod users should always try to show respect for each other. I told my children when they started using the internet. Remember, the written word doesn't show your face and emotion when you are talking to someone. If you are upset or angry or frustrated, go ahead and type what you want, but don't hit the send button. Walk away for 5 minutes, cool off, think. Then come back read what you wrote and if it doesn't sound right, delete it or rewrite your point in a much calmer way. Communication is not easy to do right, so taking a little time will benefit all in the end.

stanleemojo wrote: Many of these DL's are from several countries and more than likely do not speak/read English. I've done this in the past with a Russian modding site, not able to understand a word of it, managing to obtain the mods :\

NDDragor wrote: In my opinion its laziness or just not understanding what the endorsement button means. Many people think that it wont change anything if the endorse or leave a comment but I recently uploaded my first mod and for me each endorsment or feedback which my mod gets is a signal that people are liking my mod and that I should keep up my work. Plus all feedbacks (negative and positive) are helping me to work on my mod.

I wont say that I am always leaving a comment or endorsing a file but I really try to make the authors understand that their mods are good if I enjoyed them or point out bugs and issues if there were some. I have played 34 mods until now and endorsed 26 of them. And I have to agree with others about not endorsing downloaded mods because I haven't tried them. Right now I have 45 mods on my list which I have to play.

Well... to make it short. You wont overstrain yourself by clicking on the endorsement button or writing a small comment and the author will most likely appreciate your feedback.

skinnytecboy wrote: @myrrdin35

Regarding help from the modding community, perhaps you're not looking in the right place. There are amazing forums here that are a wealth of knowledge and people willing to help unlock it's secrets. .. there's also Google ;)

I really like your review idea btw.

Primalsplit wrote: I think mannygt has the right of it here. More people should endorse mods. I admit I wasn't paying much attention with my endorsements (mainly because of the 45 minutes limit). I download a mod, test/play it and then I either be done with testing it within 10 minutes or I just play it for 1-2 hours, sometimes for 3 hours and more. I just forgot endorsing it.

I hope this will be a good lesson to all of us. We as a community should look after each other more. Personally speaking, lesson learned. I advice everyone to be more sensitive towards this subject.

MrGrymReaper wrote: @mannygt - Did you make any endorsements during the painful growth period of the Nexus by chance please?

Cause if you did or accidently clicked on the feature for the endorse/undorse during a hic-cup they may have been lost or undone accidentally. It happended to me several times in the past with my slow internet connection.

As a result I was wondering whether the admin has somewhere on the server which keeps a record of endorsements especially those which were endorsed and quickly suddenly un-endorsed.

The reason being I now there's a lot of mods to endorse and/or vote for some of which I now can't post a comment in (following the previous crisis we went through).

So if an admin could please go through the locked or hidden comment mods which I have download and endorsed to please a word of thanks. It would be much appreciated!

Dirtysocks wrote: I'm not the poster child for feedback on mods myself, I endorse the mods I use and kudos the authors I truly believe made a fantastic mod, however I do believe personally that your no. of downloads is a much more impressive way to tally your mods success, endorsements are a bonus

In any game only a fraction are active in the forums and chats as such, this does not mean for a second that the remainder do not enjoy the game, they are just less vocal about their excitement

Fowldragon wrote: how do people come to conclusions without citing the supporting evidence...

FalSkaar has over 1 million downloads according to the Author..People have commented and critiqued it and AV has made extensive revisions..but Ungrateful? You've ignored all the acclaim and the fact that Falskaar is overwhelmingly if not Universally considered ICONIC as a DLC size mod...

If I tell my kid that he needs to work on this or that, am I unloving, not proud? If His Eng teacher gives him a B- on an ESSAY should he be justified in assuming that EVERYONE hates him?

If you want to make conclusions about endorsements you might consider that POLLING people to get their opinions is a PROACTIVE method, whereas the system in place to ENDORSE mods is completely PASSIVE in its approach.

zcul wrote: Hi MannyGT,

I fully second this and your previous post. I checked the endorsement rate for some other mods - the same 5 to 10 % maximum (?????).

After installing and running a mod, it takes a minute or 2 for returning to the modder's site and just say "thanks for your work" and maybe some thoughts on it, especially if one keeps it installed, because he/she likes it. All that is a small and humble gesture in return and in comparison with the time and work a modder invested to make a mod and share it with the community to enhance and improve the game for all and - for free.
And the best, doing so as a user does hurt in any way - I tried that myself.

b6lph6gor6 wrote: I endorse every mod I like, meaning every mod that I don't uninstall immediately after testing it. If I had to estimate, I'd say I like (and endorse) about 80% of the mods I download.

Although I have to admit that I'm lazy as well. Since I can't endorse the mod immediately after trying it (I like my game to feel vanilla, so I mostly use simple, lightweight mods that don't require a long period of testing for me to determine if I like and keep using them) I often forget to endorse the files. If it weren't for the NMM, half of the mods I use would still wait for my endorsement.

Gamwich wrote: Actually, 10% is considered a very high percentage on Nexus. That's something that I've learned over my time here.

If you can crack the 10% barrier, then you've really accomplished something. ;)

meredithmiles wrote: I do creative works in another fan-based community, and the 10 percent response is a well-known ratio there as well. If you hit about 10% kudos/thanks/likes etc. of the 100% that downloaded your work, you are doing well. I've been watching the numbers for almost 15 years, and that is a solid, persistent statistic.

I've always thought it was odd, how consistent it was.

Personally, I use endorsements as an actual personal endorsement. I'm saying "I've checked this out and suggest it to others". So I try to be sure I've actually used it and it was reasonably solid. Sometimes I will give kudos as encouragement when an otherwise worthy mod I won't really use much gets panned or ignored, even if I won't use it for long myself.

One thing I want to point out to Nexus members, if I can borrow your post to do it:

There are quite a few amazingly kind and helpful people who haunt comment threads and do impromptu tech support for mods around the Nexus. Both modders and mod users owe them a debt, and I wonder about appropriate ways to express collective appreciation for them. Any ideas?

MisterGibson wrote: If you make mods for endorsements or praise then you're in the wrong in the first place. Modding is first and foremost people improving their games for themselves and then sharing their creations out of good will. That's why users (must) accept incomplete, buggy, beta, unfinished, unsupported or abandoned mods. Put money into this and you get what ? Customers, who are protected by laws and will be much more vocal about bugs (and rightly so this time). I am so glad I couldn't monetize my Skyrim mods back when I uploaded some because they would just be a pain to support today with my full time job.

Your way of thinking is the exact opposite of the modding system as it is and as it should be because you mod while waiting for something in return. The community is not responsible nor did it force you to use your free time to mod or share your creation. Endorsements are fairly recent on nexus, mods existed long before and will exist long after endorsements disappear.

I fully understand where you come from as I've experienced it (for another game) but you're wrong in the way you approach the situation. Ask yourself why you mod, if your answer isn't "because I like it" then you've got your issue. Stop modding for others or fame, mod for yourself and you'll see things differently.

Jack Wow wrote: Just like FavouredSoul just said:-
"Its hard enough getting people to click a button to endorse a mod, let alone get people to use a donate button to give me the 5c they would rather keep."
- Me? - 1700 endorsements so far. Best I start putting my money where my mouth is. With 3600 hours of playing Skyrim under the belt, I know how much I owe the Nexus and the modding community.

greggorypeccary wrote: A lot of people seem to want to tell other people the reasons why they should mod and what the wrong reasons are. It must be nice to know everything.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @greggorypeccary

I completely agree.

Azulyn wrote: If you want to see entitled, work a customer service job.
as someone else said, modders owe the community nothing, and the people downloading said mods owe modders nothing. If you're sick of your hobby then stop uploading your work. Easy and simple as that. Want to get paid for your work? Go into game design or get involved with a gaming company.
Better yet, just wait until the new Elder Scrolls is released. I'm sure they're going to implement a paid mod system in future installments. This was just their messy test run.
I won't bother playing future Bethesda games in that case. Sorry if that makes me sound like a cheap, entitled asshole, but I can't afford to piss away all my money just to make the base game enjoyable and bug free. Games are expensive enough as is.
There's a reason I refuse to purchase skins and other micro-transactions for the games I play. I won't even get into the compatibly/stability issues most mods bring. It's been talked about to death at this point.

arxerisdam wrote: what about we get a i dont like this mod button?

and see how popular a mod really is, that would be fair.

greggorypeccary wrote: My prediction is the end of modding as we know it. The is just no incentive any more. I think more and more modders will find outlets for their creativity and move on. The people that keep saying " if you don't like it don't do it" will get their wish. Imagine your loadorders with only official dlc's. It won't be the greed of the modders that causes this, it's the greed and apathy of the community combines with outright usery of companies that really do already profit from mods that will cause the end.

Azulyn wrote: lol melodramatic much?
people need to hush with this modding will end nonsense. Even if every single talented mod author left right now, there will always be fresh faces to fill their spot.

greggorypeccary wrote: Don't think things can't change. Change is constant. Once people don't feel appreciated they will look for it elsewhere. The more the evidence adds up that the community is largely un grateful for the work modders do the more the likelihood that they will move to something that will satisfy them in some way. Add to that the fact that others are profiting from their work but they are somehow supposed to be above all that and you are practicaly driving them away. The best you'll be able to hope for is the inexperienced modder that wants to cut his teeth. This could have been avoided if the community nurtured modders for the fruit they bore and maybe if the nexus acknowledged how well they are doing for themselves providing those mods that modders should not profit from.

dasgones wrote: I'm one of those @$$holes. I've endorsed very few mods here and have downloaded many. I honestly thought my time playing skyrim would be only a few months, but since i fell into the community i've spent more time applying mods than playing with them. i'm picky and freeloading. This whole conflict has opened my eyes, however, and i'm going to be a lot more responsible in displaying my appreciation. this goes for almost all users that know what has happened. I really am apologetic to you because i'm becoming a bit of a fan of your work. it's impressive. I think ELFX look 4 times better than RLO. Immersive Helgen is incredible and your ENB presets are pure effin' magic. I was too absorbed in pleasing my enjoyment of the game to appreciate what was actually going on to make it that way. but I recognize this now. I honestly think that the best thing to come out of the last week in our community is that we now know what we look like. While I support free mods (i'm a freeloader because i'm cheap) I realize that the work I appreciate comes at a freely offered price. I need to respect that and endorse and get more involved. This week brought a lot of people off the fence. I do believe I need to be more generous in supporting mod authors, and I'm sorry I haven't been. this is something that everyone will see a lot of in the near future.

pigtailsboy wrote: You saying the interne... I mean nexus community is ungrateful? Are you saying that peop... I mean nexus community members don't vote? Are you saying that Huma... I mean nexus members are inherently flawed?

Do you have a blanket point that could easily be applied to the larger civilization of the Human race?

Leonord wrote: I dindt even learn what endorsing means after two years of modding skyrim. Others just forget or are too lazy to do it. Thats the reason why.

Spencerbilodeau wrote: zzjay... I REALLY dig your mods. I would endorse them all day long.

Dreadpap wrote: There are plenty of mods I've downloaded multiple times, but can only endorse once.
Also just because i download a mod, it doesn't mean I'll like it, most of them I uninstall.
Your whole reasoning is based on the false belief that if you download something it means you are going to use it and just steal it for yourself.
The mods I use and enjoy I endorse and most people do the same. But that's a lot smaller group than all the downloaded mods.

Honestly your use of data in this post is so wrong and bleeds form so many wounds there is no point in countering what you were actually trying to say, but if you really want to know what the community is like check the forums. I usually post something there about the mods I download. Usually something nice.

phantompally76 wrote: Manny,

You have received more endorsements in the past month than most mod authors have received in 4 years. Why are you complaining about endorsements?

I endorse quality mods that I personally enjoy. That's as far as the social contract goes.

I'm no more obligated to endorse every mod I download than I am to pay money for them. There are simply too many mod authors with rotten attitudes, too many poor-quality mods, too many offensive/sexist/racist mods out there that shouldn't even be allowed to be hosted on this site for me to adapt a mentality that now everyone deserves endorsements just because they can't get paid.

I don't like Gray Cowl of Nocturne. I tested it, and I didn't like it. It doesn't add anything to my personal gameplay experience. I'm not about to tell people that DO like it that they're wrong, because different strokes for different folks. But I won't be putting it in my load order. Ergo, vis a vis, condordantly.....I'm not going to endorse it.

Conversely, I absolutely adore Silverfish Grotto. It's one of my very favorite player homes, and it's on my Top Five list of player homes extant. It's one of the most immersive houses to have been created for the game, and it's perfect for my tastes and sensibilities. Hence.....I have LONG since endorsed it, and would endorse it AGAIN if I could.

The point here is that just because I don't endorse a mod doesn't mean I don't appreciate the mod author. It doesn't mean I'm a jerk. It doesn't mean anything other than I didn't like that particular mod. Don't take it so personally.

Endorsements are on a mod-by-mod basis. In plain English, when a user clicks the ENDORSE button, they are endorsing the mod, not the mod author. You can argue the semantics of the dictionary definition of "endorsement" all you want to, but if you want the setup to change, then you need to request Dark0ne to put the ENDORSE button on the author's profile page rather than on individual mods....where it will be even LESS visible and LESS likely to be clicked.

I don't know where you or anyone else get off thinking it's my obligation to endorse every mod I download. I realize we live in a time where everyone is a unique snowflake, and everyone gets a participation trophy, and everyone can easily audition for American Idol and be humiliated and crushed and realize we might not be as special as the enablers surrounding us led us to believe. But I'm not about to compromise my own ethics, morality, ideals and beliefs just to make your or anyone else feel better about themselves.

Endorsements are a privilege, not a right.

Poyuma wrote: Gotta be honest, I didn't even know what endorsments meant/did. I am absoultely grateful that these mods are free and well put together so I guess I will endorse all the mods I have downloaded :)

greggorypeccary wrote: pigtailsboy

Acknowledging the fault as status quo is not a solution.

As far as endorsements go, well they are a kind of thumbs up to other users looking for a mod. They are not a thank you to the modder they are not some kind of psuedo payment. All it does is say "I think other people will like this. They do nothing for the modder at all, in fact you are not even engaging the modder by endorsing the mod.

animalwtcm wrote: I've got got at least 20 hrs in reading comments her in the past 3 days, & wow what a soap?? But i still can't stop thinkin what modders like manny will do with witcher 3 ?? Ya i now, off the wall....... just to much><><><>? Happy moddin.....

TSotP wrote: i have a simple rule for endorsements.

Did the Mod do what it said it was going to do? if Yes, Endorsed!

Musicdude132 wrote: This is where modders are showing off a nasty side.

Saying people are ungrateful for not clicking a button that many don't even know exists in the first place? Please.....

You can't be serious.

Demonica wrote: @ mannygt:

A fair point, but I think you could have used a better word than "ungrateful". Feel free to look at my profile

1,274 Endorsements

Regards

svanderwerf wrote: and in some areas, only 25% of eligible electorate bother to vote.

Opt-in participation will always lead to low returns, simply because people in general won't do a thing they don't have to, even if doing it is virtually effortless. It's not so much that people are ungrateful, but that there is no advantage in going back after the wait period and hitting the button.

What would be really nice, is if a mod manager could dial home with how much playtime a mod has had. Rather than the page saying that 5% of people have bothered to click a button, how nice would it be to see 10,000 downloads, 500,000 active hours.

TheFlamingRed wrote: Looking purely at statisitcs is very misleading. Know that Youtubers can have thousands of subscribers, and some of their videos only have a few hundred views. Videos with millions of views may only have a few thousand people click the Like or Don't like button (1-10% is quite normal), and even less people will subscribe to a person, despite probably watching almost every single of their videos. Its a fact that most of a fanbase is actually completely silent.

I am subscribed to Linsey Stirling, a violinist who dances a bit - I have never clicked like on her video, never once commented. To her, I am silent, not contributing. However, in her case, I bought both her albums through amazon - I have told lots of my friends about her who may one day buy her album and been to her gigs on two occassions. When I was teaching, there was one video I would show a class as I thought it had a good message within the video, and from that, one student (who was one of the students who was interested in dance anyway) inquired directly about her. This girl maybe completely inspired by her and her life changed because of this video (unlikely but... small events in childhood can effect out lives).

The point is, the silent downloaders, who are probably the majority of any fanbase, mods in this case, appreciate what you do. We may not endorce or say thank you or comment or anything like that - and maybe some may deem us as ungrateful or unworthy to have these mods, byt know that most of us who remain silent appreciate the work you do, will spread it, and get enjoyment from it. When people release things for free on the interent, be it a mod or a youtube video, I hope that knowledge alone gives the mod makers, the youtubers, some satisfaction by putting your mod out there.

@ ramccoid or perhaps it means that the internet was in flames and galvanized the community into action.

endorsements mean exposure and popularity, downloads is generally a better indicator of how good your mod is, as are the comments people leave behind.

This is simply a math equation with variables. If you screw up a variable of course you get a skewed answer such as Manny's "the community is ungrateful".

This crap is getting stupid. Why are we fighting over things that were never an issue? Because some mod authors and some mod users were silly and did bad things? Grow up people, lol.

Lets move past this tragic event guys, enough is enough. Edited April 30, 2015 by diyeath

[WightMage]

In response to post #24812719.

Nightasy wrote:

Thank you, best of luck to you as well.

[Deleted5288688User]

In response to post #24748294. #24748909, #24748959, #24749014, #24749054, #24749074, #24749089, #24749114, #24749169, #24749269, #24749289, #24749409, #24749439, #24749529, #24749564, #24749574, #24749674, #24749709, #24749814, #24749884, #24749889, #24749954, #24750114, #24750204, #24750249, #24750254, #24750279, #24750544, #24750564, #24750709, #24750814, #24750904, #24751449, #24751489, #24751899, #24751974, #24752079, #24752334, #24752454, #24753799, #24754219, #24754259, #24754609, #24754739, #24754979, #24755419, #24755704, #24755774, #24755999, #24756039, #24756394, #24756489, #24756599, #24756669, #24756944, #24757404, #24757709, #24757794, #24757819, #24757959, #24758109, #24758244, #24758549, #24758604, #24758779, #24758789, #24759069, #24760799, #24760824, #24765454, #24765899, #24766564, #24766884, #24767039, #24767164, #24769074, #24769604, #24770129, #24770469, #24770524, #24770899, #24771494, #24771584, #24771729, #24771929, #24772554, #24773334, #24811954, #24812669, #24812944 are all replies on the same post.

mannygt wrote:

user134 wrote: Or maybe those people missed/forgot to hit the button/don't think it matters.

Stevensonzilla wrote: That's a fair point.

From my side, I can tell you that I have downloaded a lot of mods that I simply haven't gotten around to trying out yet. Gray Cowl, for instance, is sitting around on my drive waiting for my next playthrough. If that gives the impression that I'm unappreciative, it really is unintentional.

I do, however, have to admit that I'm guilty. There are mods that I have used and enjoyed and just never gotten around to endorsing or commenting on. I have no excuse other than laziness.

Timarot wrote: While I entirely agree that there should be more endorcements - unique downloads does not traslate into "people who love mod". Its more like "amoumt of unique ip-pc combination to which mod was downloaded"

mcguffin wrote: Exactly.

Mod users act actually, for a vast majority, like a *consumer*, but without paying the price. Some of them also are angry when updates take time, or when they have issues.

I have seen few people saying that they have 200 mods installed, and because of that they could not afford to pay them.
but when you look at their profile, you see very little amount of comments or endorsements.

Most of people only leech content without caring of anything.

Seren4XX wrote: Those numbers alone are an accomplishment and ode to the modders who put out those mods. Endorsing is forgotten easily for a number of reasons that don't have anything to do with being grateful or not.

Ottemis wrote: It's a fact there are parts of this and any modding community in it's users that have zero real concept of the amount of work that goes into modding and think rather loosely or little at all on the matter, even taking an entitled stance rather than an appreciative one.
While it's 'normal' to forget to endorse or comment on mods you've truly enjoyed, and easy to think modders do it for themselves and out of their own volition that does not negate that modders do thrive on positive feedback from the community and more appreciation and healthy views on what modding entails certainly wouldn't hurt the modding community as a whole.

zzjay wrote: many dont even know what an endosement is..theyre not into the community,and just like to download mods for their game

shinji72 wrote: That's a good point. And before the introductions of the pop ups on Nexus (pointing you to the unendorsed mods) the percentage were far far lower.

Kioma wrote: Extremely good point, mannygt. Kudos.

I'll admit that I'm guilty of this. I have a tendency to download a mod, forget it's there, get surprised when I load the game and find that I did in fact install it, and then play the game for several hours solid and simply forget to go back to the mod page and endorse it. Not an excuse, just a fact, but one I'm intending to correct. As I type this I'm gearing up to endorse every single mod I currently run and I encourage anyone in my boat (ie. the forgetful boat) to do the same.

Don't forget to endorse the everloving s#*&#33; out of the mods you love. People need encouragement. Someone can do stellar work and still get disheartened because even though fifty people posted 'nice mod, gj' on their page, only a fraction of those people bothered to endorse.

mannygt wrote: Please, don't get me wrong, I don't want to force your mouse to point on "endorse" button. I'm explaining how the percentage works in the Nexus. As I said before, I appreciated the users who decided to "follow" me and I always given answers to their questions because this is the real spirit of community (IMHO). Modders and Users working together to improve and make better mods.

I know that the laziness percentage for saying "thank you" or clicking the endorsement button may exist, and also it exists the percentage of who didn't liked the mod, but I cannot believe that mostly of the mods in the Nexus it only have 5%-10% of users attention.

mannygt wrote: @user134. This is from your profile:

Joined: 15 September 2013 Last active: 12:28, 28 Apr 2015

Posts: 8 Topics: 0 Files tagged: 0 File images: 0 Endorsements given: 0

samo101 wrote: It's not really a case of being grateful as much as it is of participation. People who don't participate in this community probably don't endorse mods.

Furthermore, it makes no difference in the long run. If 10% of users endorse mods they like then you still end up with the most popular mods being endorsed the most, the numbers are just lower.

PROMETHEUS_ts wrote: Well I agree on that , the actual system doesn't even discriminate between good and well made mods and just "popularity" ones .

Some crap mods do make up to hot file and stay there a whole week hoarding endorsements just because of popularity or because they made a laught on some . But Other well tought , planned, finely craftet that took months to do are left in the voidness of unpopularity .
some gems are really hidden deep into the vaults of Nexus and are not even known of .
Even the same search categorizes the mods mostly by endorsements wich increase the popularity of the popular ones , rather than have a better fair system of classification of mods according to the work done for making them .

mljh11 wrote: Why is an endorsement important? I'm not trolling - I really want to know.

I only just bought Skyrim Legendary Edition last year, and only got into trying mods this year. Therefore I'm very new to the culture here at the Nexus.

Other mod sites don't even have an endorsement button; they may have a 10 point rating system or something. Is such a system better or worse than Nexus' endorsement system?

bangunagung wrote: Well, even Gopher forgot to endorse sometimes.

bangunagung wrote: @ mljh11

That's just a way of saying "thanks for the mod, I like it". The mod author doesn't get anything from it. It just helps spreading the word whether the mod is good or not and encourage more people to try it.

It's not an entirely different system from rating, just a little bit more general.

ramccoid wrote: Don't forget the protest mod, 3,233 unique downloads to 1,438 endorsements which is the only mod ever to reach nearly 50% ratio.
People didn't feel lazy or forgetful about that one. It shows the hypocrisy clearly, make the effort when it suits.

Sigurd44 wrote: I forgot to endorse a lot of mods in my first year here on Nexus. I was just to involved in learning how to install mods correctly at all, learning Skyrim folder and file structures etc. Over time I got used to do it. I guess in the meanwhile almost every mod I once used or still use has an endorsement.

That's just my experience, I still can't explain why so many mods with extremely high download rates have so less endorsements.

mkess wrote: No, I think this action from valve this weekend was a wakeup call for many users. Let's wait and see.

mljh11 wrote: @bangunagung:

Thanks for your reply.

So would I be right to say that you think the endorse button is basically a "thanks" button? If so, I would generally agree with you on this. Which brings me to my next question...

Do mod makers make mods because they want to be thanked?

riverreveal wrote: I think a lot of people, Im including myself here, take the modding community for granted to an extent. Oblivion was the first game I started getting mods for, Skyrim was the first game where I spent a good proportion of my time playing around with the mods.

If there is already a community in place with 1000s of members, 1000s of endorsements, millions of downloads then some people think they arent needed. A lot of people have come out of the woodwork in the last few days (again myself included) and I can totally understand a mod author saying, why are you speaking up now about us not getting money now, but not even thanking us when you were grabbing our free mods. I get that.

I have never in my head taken a mod author for granted, but I do realise that my actions over the last few years has been exactly that. If one good thing does come out of all this then I hope a lot more people are going to recognise the same thing and be a bit more proactive towards endorsements and donations.

I really hope Beth and Valve find a way to get you guys rewarded that benefits the community as well. The system they used sucked, but there was a pro there as well.

user134 wrote: @mannygt: Yeah, those are statistics on my profile. What is your point? =/

mljh11 wrote: The thing is - mod makers (typically) make mods because
1) they themselves love the game, and
2) they love the idea of sharing cool stuff they make for the game with other people.

I say this as an ex-modder myself (for other games, not Skyrim). The sites I uploaded my mods to didn't have an endorse / thanks button at all - and guess what? I never got bothered thinking about whether people were thankful for my mods.

At all.

Seriously.

If you're a modder who DOES MODDING BECAUSE YOU LOVE THE GAME, just carry on. Who cares about a number that says how many people endorse or thank you for your mod? It's just that - a stupid number. Please don't get upset because of this number or the lack of it; there are waaaaay more worthwhile things in life that you could get upset over.

jet4571 wrote: Heya Mannygt I think I have endorsed one of your mods or you one of mine.. both... Or just recognize your name. Anyway this one gets me....

"but the most of the users just download the mod without saying any f***ing word. "

A simple "Thanks for uploading" is worth a $5. A "Thanks." is worth $2.50. A "Thanks." with a paragraph describing what you liked is priceless. I just uploaded an Oblivion mod 2 days ago and not one comment and that depresses me. I feel as though the mod isn't quite bad enough to get hate and not good enough for a thanks. I want to know if you are happy with it just like any other modder. If a part of it doesn't get you then please tell me in a constructive way.

I am sure many other modder will agree to that.

jaffa5 wrote: I don't agree that just because people ether choose not to or forget to endorse a mod that they have downloaded automaticly makes them ungreatful. There are a number of reasons why some one might not endorse a mod or even comment thank you.

Personally I have only given 66 endorsments on this site since i joined in 2011 but i am not ungreatful. In fact I am massively greatful to the people who spend countless hours creating mods for me to enjoy. The truth is i often forget to endorse mods unless they have really really impressed me. in those cases i will not only endorse i will vote for file of the month and possibley leave a comment.

I think it's nieve to just generalise that every one who downloads and dosn't endose or comment is inherantly ungreatful.

Amyr wrote: Endorsement system should be gone anyway. It's completely useless.

What would you gain if Falskaar had 250K Endorsements instead of 60K? Nothing. It's just a number.

What we actually need is a review system. You can have 200 reviews and it seems like a really really small number compared to 60K Endorsement, but wouldn't it be better to have 98% approved rating with those reviews? Rather than having 200K mindless clicks because Nexus keeps forcing you to?

jet4571 wrote: Ok how about rude? if ungrateful is too insulting that shouldn't be because that's kinda what you are saying. If you download so many mods in a download session that you cannot remember where they came from then you are lucky your game still works.

Also an endorsement is a thank you. If you enjoy a mod then hit the button. The endorsement does not do anything but tell the author thanks. There is no secret files of the month or anything. Endorsements are not in limited supply so you can endorse every mod you downloaded that you liked.

AN Endorsement is NOT a measurement in quality. Do not think of them as that because they are a simple thank you .

Amelli wrote: I don't think it's fair to call the users ungrateful just because they haven't hit the endorse button. That's very petty imo.

I for one know I haven't endorsed nearly as many mods as I should have, why? Several reasons
1. The main one being I have a life that is very busy and doesn't 100% revolve around Skyrim.
2. When I do come back to Skyrim in my very limited free time, I'm a mod hoarder, and spend more time messing around in MO trying to settle on a mod list I'm happy to play with and testing all those mods out in game, whilst figuring out why my game CTDs, which mod did it or which mods don't pal up together nicely, then I actually spend time playing the game.
3. To endorse I have to have downloaded a mod. To endorse I have to have spent time testing that mod. As endorsing certifies I've tested and I am happy with that mod. That's it's something special. Some mods take longer to test then others.
4. My mind isn't what it used to be and I can easily forget after all those other points that I need to return to the nexus and endorse my mods without getting distracted by yet another uber awesome mod on the nexus front page. That advertising doing its job right after all right?
5. After a few months I find my way out of the mire and realise I haven't endorsed still. So when I see an update for a mod I love and realise I haven't endorsed, I kick myself and hit the endorse button.

Should I feel I'm ungrateful for not endorsing? NO. Should feel upset at MannyG's words? YES.

I'm not able to speak for all users. But I'm sure there are many like me who would feel very pissed off at being called ungrateful.

And yes I can understand that there may be some out there who just download and don't give a toss, but I can bet you that the majority of us do give a toss, we just have very busy lives, and we sometimes don't realise what the nagging thing we need to do at the back of our minds is trying to tell us....umm what is that thing I had to do?....Oh yes, frickin endorse. It's not that I'm ungrateful. It's just that when I endorse, it's in between the few moments of free time I have to actually relax and have some me time. What would I rather be doing with that time?

If a modder doesn't feel they are being shown enough respect or endorsements all they have to do is hide their mod. That's their choice that they are entitled to. But users aren't forced to say boo to anything, just like modders aren't forced to Mod.

Sakorona wrote: Yes, how DARE YOU demand at least acknowledgement of your work! [/sarcasm]

Seriously. Go endorse. Donate, if you feel inclined to. It's a few second action and creates a sense of community.

Angm4r wrote: I have to try a mod before i endorse it, i will come back then and endorse it if i think it is worth if i really like it i will even donate for it.

Amelli wrote: @Sakorona
Well at least this week I have the time to catch up on nexus mods. I'm stuck at home cos my darling three yo gave me conjunctivitis, I have a full blown cold, and I'm most likely going to be made redundant in the next week, so my stress levels are a tad high right now. Then all this just when I was waiting for all the great new updated mods like Frostfall 3.0 to come out to cheer me up. Ah well.

I'd donate if I could, but looks like I won't be able to spare any change to do so.

@Dark0ne
Might be good to have some site tutorials (forgive me if there are already) on the features on nexus, where to find them and what they mean, and highlight that in the news every month to remind old and new users alike. As it seems a lot of users don't know how to use or where a lot of features of the nexus are.

mannygt wrote: @Amelli: I don't think you're on the 90%-95% side of the users that simply grabs a mod and vanishes. Your profile is clear: you give endorsements for mods you liked. I know that you have some mods to endorse but doesn't makes you a "ungrateful". I'm not ungrateful as you said, because if I WAS ungrateful then I would started to sell the mods betraying all my followers. On the contrary, I'm grateful to them, instead. My Gray Cowl of Nocturnal is ready for v1.1, this thanks to who participated on reporting to me bugs and ideas. Same thing for my other mods. Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods.

jad31te wrote: Mannygt,

I have been here just a short time.. you are one of the very best most helpful modders I have dealt with on the nexus, you have always been more then helpful anytime I have had a question, But I can not say this for all. I have asked genuine questions to others only to be snubbed, I have left over 297 endorsements and about 70 comments.. until this Issue I have never posted on the forum so I know all of my comments were feedback related.

Just last week I had downloaded a mod I was having issues with, the author of said mod was on the forum answering question, but he just snubbed me over, would not help me and I really was genuinely stuck.. I do read everything about a mod before I install. luckily for me I was able to figure it out alone, but my point is not everyone is like you.. not everyone is helpful and some are downright rude!

I also have another questions about endorsements, I downloaded a very cute and unique mod that was put up recently, the author had received many positive comments and 12 endorsements by the time I had seen the mod. I downloaded it and ran the course of getting it situated in my mod list.. start the game and searched over an hour trying to locate the boat, BUT i could find no boat, I spent another hour reorganizing my modlist trying to make it work because after all.. 12 other people had made it work.. it must have been on my end and I was afraid yet again to ask the author a stupid question.

Finally out of frustration, I did approach him or her.. and you know what? they had made a small mistake, being new and never loading a mod here before, they had accisently loaded the wrong file, I was very happy to have assisted him in getting it all right. and now I have my boat :) but my point is that it had 12 endorsements from people who had not even bothered to load the mod.

I just wonder with how this current system is implemented, how long it even could have took him to realize the error :s

anyways, thank you so much for always being helpful.. but not all are like you

user134 wrote: @mannygt: "Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods."

People mindlessly hammer away at the "like" button on Facebook all day. Like all statistics, endorsements should be taken with a grain of salt.

SiniVII wrote: Numbers, numbers, numbers... Where 5 to 10 percent is factual information, and the remaining is plain speculation. It's very easy to say "Well those who don't fall within these statistics obviously think X, Y, and Z", but you really don't have any evidence of that, it's just pure speculation and finger-pointing without any real basis for it.

It's ridiculous, just because someone falls within the endorsement statistic, doesn't mean the other side of it are automatically ungrateful mod-hogging bastards.

If anything you should use your download counter as an indicator for your mods popularity, rather than obsess over endorsement for your work, when comments and the download-counter is already enough of an indicator.

For a long time I didn't endorse mods simply because I have the attention-span of a goldfish, that does in no way mean I am an ungrateful bastard who doesn't appreciate the modding community.

If I do happen to revisit any of the mods I downloaded previously by chance, I will endorse nowadays.

Amelli wrote: Manny, don't get me wrong I love you as a modder. You've made spectacular mods.

It's the way you worded your post...

...but the Nexus seems to be a lair of ungrateful people.

That makes you sound like your sounding out the community as being wholly ungrateful. And that's what upsets me.

Perhaps rather then nitpick, we need to put our heads together and come up with some suggestions to Dark0ne to make nexus even easier to use and make some 'idiots guides' to everything nexus and have these very obvious on the main pages of nexus. That way the community is reminded of the great assets the nexus provides. The modders being one of those.

Only by working together can we make this community thrive again and heal these festering wounds.

mannygt wrote: @SiniVII: 1 person every 10 or 20 endorsed SkyUI or Falskaar. What do you mean for "someone"?
@Amelli: Statistics are clear. I'm sorry if you're upset but, again, I have no doubt that you support modders.

MacAban wrote: This raises two interesting points for me.

First, if endorsements are important for the modder, education needs to be done on that point. I don't know how to make it better than it's already is, honestly, since most mods have a reminder in the style "if you like it endorse it", but apparently this isn't enough to raise awareness. Maybe posting threads on the forums and sites where the community of players lurk, like Steam forums? A lot of players come to the Nexus only to download the mod, and speak about it somewhere else if they like it. As for posting in a mod thread, I always considered it was for bugs and feedback, not to thank the modder. I realize now it means that most modders whose work I've liked don't even know it except from that tiny endorsement and sometimes a vote for FOTM, but honestly I thought it was how it was supposed to work. I don't frequent the Nexus forums, maybe I should make an account there and post in the thread of every mod I like? OR should I start using the mod thread itself to give thanks?

Second, I looked at my profile by curiosity after reading your post, and I saw only 11 or 12 endorsements in there. What? I know, for a fact, with absolute certainty, that I have endorsed a lot of them through the NMM at one point or another. I know, for a fact, that most of the 150 mods I used with regularity had that little yellow star in NMM. My profile said I didn't endorse Frostfall, which is one of my favorite mods ever and I've used since I've started to play Skyrim: there's absolutely no way it's true, if I had endorsed only one mod in all my years it would have been this one. Yet I saw my endorsements for other mods, but not this one. Doesn't an endorsement in NMM translate in an endorsement here, or doesn't just it show on my profile? I don't care how my profile looks, honestly, but I'd like to think the mods did get the endorsement.

mcguffin wrote: this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

SiniVII wrote: @mannygt

Are you saying those 10 and 20 who didn't endorse are simply mod-hoggers and ungrateful bastards? And you're relying on your own statistic to push this blanket-statement? I'm sorry but you've got nothing. Word of mouth, It's rather powerful. One of those 10 people might've spread the word about the mod which made the number increase to every 20 person instead of 10, and thanks to word of mouth they may have attracted another endorser which made your oh-so precious counter to rise ever so slightly.

Obsessing over the endorsement counter is the most asinine way I've seen to determine whether or not your mod is popular, because IF there is anything your statistics have shown us is that the endorsement counter is simply not an accurate measurement of people's enjoyment of a mod.

Download counts and comments is what you should use as your indicator of popularity, you check the statistic of how many times they've been downloaded vs the feedback you receive in the comments, that gives you a measurement of a mods popularity, NOT through a counter people tend to click as a courtesy as if you were tipping a waiter at a restaurant.

mannygt wrote: I answered you in the other post.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: you are wrong. popularity is not the point.
People actually showing you they care is the point.


It's perfectly possible to have a mod with a very low popularity but a strong little community around it.
If nobody care, you do the stuff for yourself, then you let go.

mannygt wrote:

this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

Priceless.

SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

You can't expect every single individual to shower you with praise, that's simply not how it is. People will download and move on all the time, sometimes they'll be forced to make an account but that's the extent they'll go to because at the end of the day they want to play their vidya-games.

Eventually modders will have a place where they can host their mods and put them behind a pay-wall where they can actually get fair rates compared to steamthesda hogging 75% of the revenue, no doubt about that, hopefully there'll be quality-checks in place as well by that time as well...

However, till then expecting to be showered with praise from every single downloader is unrealistic, and nothing short of delving into the deepest darkest corners of delusion.

Of course, if you wanted that to happen, NEXUS could always make commenting and endorsing MANDATORY for downloads. That'd make people more popular I'm sure, where you'd get half-assed annoyed comments about Nexus system, rather than people who shower you with praise because they actually want to, and think you honestly deserve it.

You don't want praise from everyone, and that will never happen anyway.

mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: I don't ask for mandatory at all.
But the 10% stat is quite bad, to say to least, and doesn't send a very good signal.

Altamhyr wrote: I'd like to say a little thing. I'm french, i can read english easyly. I have Many friends, here on nexus, who are able to use it but ca&nacute;t understand you...

donsolidad wrote: @mannygt

I was only made aware of your mods through "The Gray Cowl. . ." which I think is fantastic, in fact, exactly the sort of mod that keeps me coming back to Skyrim. To me, this whole debacle with Steam is a reminder for those of us who are mod users to be more generous with our praise and our donations.

SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

The only thing those 10 percents show is that the endorsement system is inadequate as a praise measurement, and is not something you should use as a base for your argument.

sdupp wrote: @ mannygt Agree with your post, but i don't think it was the only reason for some modders to sell mods as a greedy modder.

caffeinatedNetling wrote: Regarding the protest mod having lots of endorsements: Get people emotionally involved with the process of making the mod noticed, and of freaking course they're going to endorse.

macintroll wrote: It's just show that 90% of users are just leechers ^^

caffeinatedNetling wrote: I typically have "modding sessions" that literally last for days, going straight from vanilla to the setup I'll play through the following months (without even so much as updating anything, I lost too many saves already).
If I could endorse the mods I download in these sessions when I have them open, I would, but by the time the countdown before the endorsements are enabled reaches zero, I can't even remember what I have downloaded anymore.

EDIT: I went to my profile to actually look at what I have endorsed and it's pretty hilarious. 90% of my endorsements have been made from the download pop-up, on the same day during my last "modding rush".

sunshinenbrick wrote: This might be very unpopular but could a ratio counter between downloads and endorsements have any help in this particular situation. Later on when a proper well thought out and unexploitative polite paying system is eventually introduced (because it more than likely will) it could be expanded to that as well as a form of quality control.

The way it works, well it gives people a kinda nudge if they are deemed to be abusing the system. A better thought out version of how Steam tried to battle the stealing mod refund situation.

Would not be surprised if this wasn't just a big data collection exercise.

MacAban wrote: @ caffeinatedNetling

Account options > Download History, if you want to correct that. You can even endorse from there.

skinnytecboy wrote: This comment started very nicely.. actually put a smile on my face. I thought to myself "Ah finally they're all playing nicely". Let me dream a little more please :)

P.s. I for one enjoy making mods and playing mods and my motives are purely personal. However, it's always nice to know that people like what you do. Its nice to feel approval even if it isn't asked for.

So spread some love and hit those endorsement buttons my fine furry friends :)

myrrdin35 wrote: With everything that has happened, the very thing you bring up has been on my mind also but in a different way. I'm a mod user, I've tried so many times to make a mod but my brain just can't wrap around that CK. I love what mod authors have brought to my gaming and many times in surprising ways. The problem is I have limited ways to give feedback to mod authors. I can hit the "Endorse" button and/or make a
post on the mod page that usually gets buried very quickly. Neither of these options is ideal for mod authors and users.

I think the Nexus needs to take some time and make the site more user friendly. Right now we have the Top 100 (useless, same mods forever), the hot files (highlights some popular new mods, but they are gone too quickly), and then files of the month (which is buried on the side of the page and not prominent). I think a couple of things can be done so more mods get some exposure and helps us the mod
users interact with you guys the makers.

One, add a review area to the mod pages. And I mean real reviews not just your mod is great or it sucks. Talk about technical stuff, if a quest mod how long did it take, if a texture pack did it look good, and so on. Also make it so we can follow reviewers. Say someone is really good and I can trust their feedback, I would love a way to follow their reviews.

Two, a mod spotlight. It can be an old mod, new one, big or small. Just something that is different, works and could be a good addition to someones game. This could definately highlight some lesser known or older mods that people never new existed.

Three, an area where mod users could upload their mod lists with notes on what kind of playthrough they are for and how well the mods work together and maybe installation notes if needed. Say I wanted a survivalist playthrough or maybe a hardcore your gonna die one or a very well put together texture overhaul. I mean how many times have you seen people say recommend me some mods, but its never that simple. This would definately give more exposure to more mod makers. Also it would give people a base to work from.

Four, Make the files of the month more prominent. There usually is a mix of different mods that people are voting for and it deserves some better screen real
estate.

There are probably many more, these are just the ones I could think of right now. I don't know if any of this is doable or not. But I do know as a mod user, it is frustrating right now trying to give proper feedback. I will say mod makers and mod users should always try to show respect for each other. I told my children when they started using the internet. Remember, the written word doesn't show your face and emotion when you are talking to someone. If you are upset or angry or frustrated, go ahead and type what you want, but don't hit the send button. Walk away for 5 minutes, cool off, think. Then come back read what you wrote and if it doesn't sound right, delete it or rewrite your point in a much calmer way. Communication is not easy to do right, so taking a little time will benefit all in the end.

stanleemojo wrote: Many of these DL's are from several countries and more than likely do not speak/read English. I've done this in the past with a Russian modding site, not able to understand a word of it, managing to obtain the mods :\

NDDragor wrote: In my opinion its laziness or just not understanding what the endorsement button means. Many people think that it wont change anything if the endorse or leave a comment but I recently uploaded my first mod and for me each endorsment or feedback which my mod gets is a signal that people are liking my mod and that I should keep up my work. Plus all feedbacks (negative and positive) are helping me to work on my mod.

I wont say that I am always leaving a comment or endorsing a file but I really try to make the authors understand that their mods are good if I enjoyed them or point out bugs and issues if there were some. I have played 34 mods until now and endorsed 26 of them. And I have to agree with others about not endorsing downloaded mods because I haven't tried them. Right now I have 45 mods on my list which I have to play.

Well... to make it short. You wont overstrain yourself by clicking on the endorsement button or writing a small comment and the author will most likely appreciate your feedback.

skinnytecboy wrote: @myrrdin35

Regarding help from the modding community, perhaps you're not looking in the right place. There are amazing forums here that are a wealth of knowledge and people willing to help unlock it's secrets. .. there's also Google ;)

I really like your review idea btw.

Primalsplit wrote: I think mannygt has the right of it here. More people should endorse mods. I admit I wasn't paying much attention with my endorsements (mainly because of the 45 minutes limit). I download a mod, test/play it and then I either be done with testing it within 10 minutes or I just play it for 1-2 hours, sometimes for 3 hours and more. I just forgot endorsing it.

I hope this will be a good lesson to all of us. We as a community should look after each other more. Personally speaking, lesson learned. I advice everyone to be more sensitive towards this subject.

MrGrymReaper wrote: @mannygt - Did you make any endorsements during the painful growth period of the Nexus by chance please?

Cause if you did or accidently clicked on the feature for the endorse/undorse during a hic-cup they may have been lost or undone accidentally. It happended to me several times in the past with my slow internet connection.

As a result I was wondering whether the admin has somewhere on the server which keeps a record of endorsements especially those which were endorsed and quickly suddenly un-endorsed.

The reason being I now there's a lot of mods to endorse and/or vote for some of which I now can't post a comment in (following the previous crisis we went through).

So if an admin could please go through the locked or hidden comment mods which I have download and endorsed to please a word of thanks. It would be much appreciated!

Dirtysocks wrote: I'm not the poster child for feedback on mods myself, I endorse the mods I use and kudos the authors I truly believe made a fantastic mod, however I do believe personally that your no. of downloads is a much more impressive way to tally your mods success, endorsements are a bonus

In any game only a fraction are active in the forums and chats as such, this does not mean for a second that the remainder do not enjoy the game, they are just less vocal about their excitement

Fowldragon wrote: how do people come to conclusions without citing the supporting evidence...

FalSkaar has over 1 million downloads according to the Author..People have commented and critiqued it and AV has made extensive revisions..but Ungrateful? You've ignored all the acclaim and the fact that Falskaar is overwhelmingly if not Universally considered ICONIC as a DLC size mod...

If I tell my kid that he needs to work on this or that, am I unloving, not proud? If His Eng teacher gives him a B- on an ESSAY should he be justified in assuming that EVERYONE hates him?

If you want to make conclusions about endorsements you might consider that POLLING people to get their opinions is a PROACTIVE method, whereas the system in place to ENDORSE mods is completely PASSIVE in its approach.

zcul wrote: Hi MannyGT,

I fully second this and your previous post. I checked the endorsement rate for some other mods - the same 5 to 10 % maximum (?????).

After installing and running a mod, it takes a minute or 2 for returning to the modder's site and just say "thanks for your work" and maybe some thoughts on it, especially if one keeps it installed, because he/she likes it. All that is a small and humble gesture in return and in comparison with the time and work a modder invested to make a mod and share it with the community to enhance and improve the game for all and - for free.
And the best, doing so as a user does hurt in any way - I tried that myself.

b6lph6gor6 wrote: I endorse every mod I like, meaning every mod that I don't uninstall immediately after testing it. If I had to estimate, I'd say I like (and endorse) about 80% of the mods I download.

Although I have to admit that I'm lazy as well. Since I can't endorse the mod immediately after trying it (I like my game to feel vanilla, so I mostly use simple, lightweight mods that don't require a long period of testing for me to determine if I like and keep using them) I often forget to endorse the files. If it weren't for the NMM, half of the mods I use would still wait for my endorsement.

Gamwich wrote: Actually, 10% is considered a very high percentage on Nexus. That's something that I've learned over my time here.

If you can crack the 10% barrier, then you've really accomplished something. ;)

meredithmiles wrote: I do creative works in another fan-based community, and the 10 percent response is a well-known ratio there as well. If you hit about 10% kudos/thanks/likes etc. of the 100% that downloaded your work, you are doing well. I've been watching the numbers for almost 15 years, and that is a solid, persistent statistic.

I've always thought it was odd, how consistent it was.

Personally, I use endorsements as an actual personal endorsement. I'm saying "I've checked this out and suggest it to others". So I try to be sure I've actually used it and it was reasonably solid. Sometimes I will give kudos as encouragement when an otherwise worthy mod I won't really use much gets panned or ignored, even if I won't use it for long myself.

One thing I want to point out to Nexus members, if I can borrow your post to do it:

There are quite a few amazingly kind and helpful people who haunt comment threads and do impromptu tech support for mods around the Nexus. Both modders and mod users owe them a debt, and I wonder about appropriate ways to express collective appreciation for them. Any ideas?

MisterGibson wrote: If you make mods for endorsements or praise then you're in the wrong in the first place. Modding is first and foremost people improving their games for themselves and then sharing their creations out of good will. That's why users (must) accept incomplete, buggy, beta, unfinished, unsupported or abandoned mods. Put money into this and you get what ? Customers, who are protected by laws and will be much more vocal about bugs (and rightly so this time). I am so glad I couldn't monetize my Skyrim mods back when I uploaded some because they would just be a pain to support today with my full time job.

Your way of thinking is the exact opposite of the modding system as it is and as it should be because you mod while waiting for something in return. The community is not responsible nor did it force you to use your free time to mod or share your creation. Endorsements are fairly recent on nexus, mods existed long before and will exist long after endorsements disappear.

I fully understand where you come from as I've experienced it (for another game) but you're wrong in the way you approach the situation. Ask yourself why you mod, if your answer isn't "because I like it" then you've got your issue. Stop modding for others or fame, mod for yourself and you'll see things differently.

Jack Wow wrote: Just like FavouredSoul just said:-
"Its hard enough getting people to click a button to endorse a mod, let alone get people to use a donate button to give me the 5c they would rather keep."
- Me? - 1700 endorsements so far. Best I start putting my money where my mouth is. With 3600 hours of playing Skyrim under the belt, I know how much I owe the Nexus and the modding community.

greggorypeccary wrote: A lot of people seem to want to tell other people the reasons why they should mod and what the wrong reasons are. It must be nice to know everything.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @greggorypeccary

I completely agree.

Azulyn wrote: If you want to see entitled, work a customer service job.
as someone else said, modders owe the community nothing, and the people downloading said mods owe modders nothing. If you're sick of your hobby then stop uploading your work. Easy and simple as that. Want to get paid for your work? Go into game design or get involved with a gaming company.
Better yet, just wait until the new Elder Scrolls is released. I'm sure they're going to implement a paid mod system in future installments. This was just their messy test run.
I won't bother playing future Bethesda games in that case. Sorry if that makes me sound like a cheap, entitled asshole, but I can't afford to piss away all my money just to make the base game enjoyable and bug free. Games are expensive enough as is.
There's a reason I refuse to purchase skins and other micro-transactions for the games I play. I won't even get into the compatibly/stability issues most mods bring. It's been talked about to death at this point.

arxerisdam wrote: what about we get a i dont like this mod button?

and see how popular a mod really is, that would be fair.

greggorypeccary wrote: My prediction is the end of modding as we know it. The is just no incentive any more. I think more and more modders will find outlets for their creativity and move on. The people that keep saying " if you don't like it don't do it" will get their wish. Imagine your loadorders with only official dlc's. It won't be the greed of the modders that causes this, it's the greed and apathy of the community combines with outright usery of companies that really do already profit from mods that will cause the end.

Azulyn wrote: lol melodramatic much?
people need to hush with this modding will end nonsense. Even if every single talented mod author left right now, there will always be fresh faces to fill their spot.

greggorypeccary wrote: Don't think things can't change. Change is constant. Once people don't feel appreciated they will look for it elsewhere. The more the evidence adds up that the community is largely un grateful for the work modders do the more the likelihood that they will move to something that will satisfy them in some way. Add to that the fact that others are profiting from their work but they are somehow supposed to be above all that and you are practicaly driving them away. The best you'll be able to hope for is the inexperienced modder that wants to cut his teeth. This could have been avoided if the community nurtured modders for the fruit they bore and maybe if the nexus acknowledged how well they are doing for themselves providing those mods that modders should not profit from.

dasgones wrote: I'm one of those @$$holes. I've endorsed very few mods here and have downloaded many. I honestly thought my time playing skyrim would be only a few months, but since i fell into the community i've spent more time applying mods than playing with them. i'm picky and freeloading. This whole conflict has opened my eyes, however, and i'm going to be a lot more responsible in displaying my appreciation. this goes for almost all users that know what has happened. I really am apologetic to you because i'm becoming a bit of a fan of your work. it's impressive. I think ELFX look 4 times better than RLO. Immersive Helgen is incredible and your ENB presets are pure effin' magic. I was too absorbed in pleasing my enjoyment of the game to appreciate what was actually going on to make it that way. but I recognize this now. I honestly think that the best thing to come out of the last week in our community is that we now know what we look like. While I support free mods (i'm a freeloader because i'm cheap) I realize that the work I appreciate comes at a freely offered price. I need to respect that and endorse and get more involved. This week brought a lot of people off the fence. I do believe I need to be more generous in supporting mod authors, and I'm sorry I haven't been. this is something that everyone will see a lot of in the near future.

pigtailsboy wrote: You saying the interne... I mean nexus community is ungrateful? Are you saying that peop... I mean nexus community members don't vote? Are you saying that Huma... I mean nexus members are inherently flawed?

Do you have a blanket point that could easily be applied to the larger civilization of the Human race?

Leonord wrote: I dindt even learn what endorsing means after two years of modding skyrim. Others just forget or are too lazy to do it. Thats the reason why.

Spencerbilodeau wrote: zzjay... I REALLY dig your mods. I would endorse them all day long.

Dreadpap wrote: There are plenty of mods I've downloaded multiple times, but can only endorse once.
Also just because i download a mod, it doesn't mean I'll like it, most of them I uninstall.
Your whole reasoning is based on the false belief that if you download something it means you are going to use it and just steal it for yourself.
The mods I use and enjoy I endorse and most people do the same. But that's a lot smaller group than all the downloaded mods.

Honestly your use of data in this post is so wrong and bleeds form so many wounds there is no point in countering what you were actually trying to say, but if you really want to know what the community is like check the forums. I usually post something there about the mods I download. Usually something nice.

phantompally76 wrote: Manny,

You have received more endorsements in the past month than most mod authors have received in 4 years. Why are you complaining about endorsements?

I endorse quality mods that I personally enjoy. That's as far as the social contract goes.

I'm no more obligated to endorse every mod I download than I am to pay money for them. There are simply too many mod authors with rotten attitudes, too many poor-quality mods, too many offensive/sexist/racist mods out there that shouldn't even be allowed to be hosted on this site for me to adapt a mentality that now everyone deserves endorsements just because they can't get paid.

I don't like Gray Cowl of Nocturne. I tested it, and I didn't like it. It doesn't add anything to my personal gameplay experience. I'm not about to tell people that DO like it that they're wrong, because different strokes for different folks. But I won't be putting it in my load order. Ergo, vis a vis, condordantly.....I'm not going to endorse it.

Conversely, I absolutely adore Silverfish Grotto. It's one of my very favorite player homes, and it's on my Top Five list of player homes extant. It's one of the most immersive houses to have been created for the game, and it's perfect for my tastes and sensibilities. Hence.....I have LONG since endorsed it, and would endorse it AGAIN if I could.

The point here is that just because I don't endorse a mod doesn't mean I don't appreciate the mod author. It doesn't mean I'm a jerk. It doesn't mean anything other than I didn't like that particular mod. Don't take it so personally.

Endorsements are on a mod-by-mod basis. In plain English, when a user clicks the ENDORSE button, they are endorsing the mod, not the mod author. You can argue the semantics of the dictionary definition of "endorsement" all you want to, but if you want the setup to change, then you need to request Dark0ne to put the ENDORSE button on the author's profile page rather than on individual mods....where it will be even LESS visible and LESS likely to be clicked.

I don't know where you or anyone else get off thinking it's my obligation to endorse every mod I download. I realize we live in a time where everyone is a unique snowflake, and everyone gets a participation trophy, and everyone can easily audition for American Idol and be humiliated and crushed and realize we might not be as special as the enablers surrounding us led us to believe. But I'm not about to compromise my own ethics, morality, ideals and beliefs just to make your or anyone else feel better about themselves.

Endorsements are a privilege, not a right.

Poyuma wrote: Gotta be honest, I didn't even know what endorsments meant/did. I am absoultely grateful that these mods are free and well put together so I guess I will endorse all the mods I have downloaded :)

greggorypeccary wrote: pigtailsboy

Acknowledging the fault as status quo is not a solution.

As far as endorsements go, well they are a kind of thumbs up to other users looking for a mod. They are not a thank you to the modder they are not some kind of psuedo payment. All it does is say "I think other people will like this. They do nothing for the modder at all, in fact you are not even engaging the modder by endorsing the mod.

animalwtcm wrote: I've got got at least 20 hrs in reading comments her in the past 3 days, & wow what a soap?? But i still can't stop thinkin what modders like manny will do with witcher 3 ?? Ya i now, off the wall....... just to much><><><>? Happy moddin.....

TSotP wrote: i have a simple rule for endorsements.

Did the Mod do what it said it was going to do? if Yes, Endorsed!

Musicdude132 wrote: This is where modders are showing off a nasty side.

Saying people are ungrateful for not clicking a button that many don't even know exists in the first place? Please.....

You can't be serious.

Demonica wrote: @ mannygt:

A fair point, but I think you could have used a better word than "ungrateful". Feel free to look at my profile

1,274 Endorsements

Regards

diyeath wrote: @ ramccoid or perhaps it means that the internet was in flames and galvanized the community into action.

endorsements mean exposure and popularity, downloads is generally a better indicator of how good your mod is, as are the comments people leave behind.

This is simply a math equation with variables. If you screw up a variable of course you get a skewed answer such as Manny's "the community is ungrateful".

This crap is getting stupid. Why are we fighting over things that were never an issue? Because some mod authors and some mod users were silly and did bad things? Grow up people, lol.

and in some areas, only 25% of eligible electorate bother to vote.

Opt-in participation will always lead to low returns, simply because people in general won't do a thing they don't have to, even if doing it is virtually effortless. It's not so much that people are ungrateful, but that there is no advantage in going back after the wait period and hitting the button.

What would be really nice, is if a mod manager could dial home with how much playtime a mod has had. Rather than the page saying that 5% of people have bothered to click a button, how nice would it be to see 10,000 downloads, 500,000 active hours.

[blackasm]

In response to post #24812719. #24813164 is also a reply to the same post.

Nightasy wrote:

WightMage wrote: Thank you, best of luck to you as well.

hmmm I am still fiery about the whole topic, but your reconsideration is making me reconsider taking my mods down lol. well I will mull it over is all I can say for now.

[TheFlamingRed]

In response to post #24811984. #24812039 is also a reply to the same post.

Alenderis wrote:

WightMage wrote: Well said.

This is probabily the view of many modders who really don't say much in the community and simple download mods and play the game, of which I am one and know of several others of similar opinion. It's not like we're heartless for not posting a comment and saying thanks, but we test these mod, enjoy them in our own way and recommend it to our friends if they're good.

To carry on the main point here, if Paid Mods were introduced from the get go of Skyrim, and SKYUI was a paid mod - I would never have paid money for it without trying it first - even though it's a mod that noone plays without. The risk / reward ratio wouldn't have been worth my money. If a mod required SKYUI, a mod I didn't pay for, I wouldn't have even looked at that mod once I read that dependancy, and I feel that many others would have done the same. Like said above, I would never pay to test to see if I liked a new mod.

I am like this with games in general too, if there is no demo, no friend who has it, no Let's play whose first hour makes me think "I need to stop watching and get this game", I simply don't play that game. Falkstar via Gopher's Let's Play, may be the only mod I would have ever paid for if it was a paid mod on release. His spotlights probably would not have been enough for me to get any utility mods, or combat mods, or apparance changing mods, as I look at my money in a 'Pounds Per Minute of Enjoyment' ratio, without any first hand expereince as to whether I would enjoy something or not. Skywind and Skyblivion and Haar-Nien-something would have been the only other mods I may have paid for, given the size and scope of their respective projects (though whether they will ever be finished is another thing)

So Beth/Valve were smart to use a game that already had famous mods that perhaps people would pay for, as it would be very hard to get new people using any paid mods - so looking at that scenario... SKYUI again as everyone knows it, Let's say they released V1 of SkyUI free, but V2 onwards paid... Well, I'd have installed the original version and I remember well how amazed I was at how better the interface was - however, this is their main selling point. V2 onwards did add things, but if they were behind a pay wall, I will probably only stayed with the original, If other mods, free or paid, required V3 with mod configerator - this would not be enough for me to buy it also, I'd just not be testing these other mods (aside that, a feel a lot less people would have made this a requirement had Mod Config been a paid for only feature). I love SKYUI, but without knowing better, I would have loved the original and would have comfortably lived ignorantly how much better V4 is and keep my money. I do not know how many people actually donate, or how much people were earning for the brief amount of paid mods, but I would not have assumed it would have been all that much different to them in the long run, especially if most of the audence of mods are people like me (I cannot even recall the Nexus policy for modders asking for donations but I would hope it is not opposed to such practice).

Maybe I will be seen in a bad light here for being tight, unhelpful for not providing income to the mod makers. I also have no stance on this paid/free modding argument as it kinda slipped under my radar until I red this post. But even though I do not post very much, nor endorce all mods i download, or donate. What I am though, is a big appreciator of the mods here, someone who advertised people I know to try mods I know they will enjoy (I cannot count how many times I have recommened SKYUI to people who still play Skyrim unmodded, and iNPCs to basically everyone who loves the game. While I am not contributing much myself, I hope through my advertisements, and the network of advertisements of mods I give, that someone will be donating, endorcing, becoming usefully active in this community.

Anyway, this was just how I see things from being a very much outside / conveince user of this site and mods in general. I mean no disrespect to anyone, and all statements correspond only to my own thoughts.

Take Care

Red

[Deleted5288688User]

In response to post #24774814. #24776789, #24777459, #24811584, #24811694, #24811904, #24811959 are all replies on the same post.

chidosity wrote:

Brasscatcher wrote: And if they don't like it, they can hit the bricks. Right on, chido!

FavoredSoul wrote: You totally missed the point of my post.

95% of my discontent had to do with the simple fact that this "issue" has brought to the surface, such a disgusting amount of hate that I never knew existed, or was even possible. And why?

Did I even have any mods for sale? No. Only about 15 people were even part of the program, let me repeat that, *FIFTEEN*, so for people like you to say that people like me are greedy and entitled, when we DIDN'T EVEN DO ANYTHING, that's the truly heart breaking part.

I was merely upset and disappointed over the fact that, for the briefest moment, the POSSIBILITY of some kind of return system existed, and it was so vilified, and so hated, that you guys decided to make, in large part, the mod-authors the target of that hate, and not bethesda and valve who were the ones that CREATED IT.

So again, when people like you say to people like me, "good riddance we don't need you", it just proves how disposable you think we are. You're happy to use our mods when we're offering, and just as readily are willing to throw us away without a second thought. You take us for granted, and that makes you nothing else but a selfish individual. And you say that I am the one with the disease?

I would say that anybody who posts comments like that, filled with hate, is the one with the disease. I haven't done anything. I didn't pull my mods from the Nexus. I didn't put any mods behind a paywall. Where did all this hate come from?

Musicdude132 wrote: "Some of you are calling end-users entitled brats for wanting something for nothing. I am calling all of you mod authors that wish to be financially compensated for your work entitled brats. When you started your project, large or small, you never envisioned being paid for you work. No matter what your motivation was, money was never one of them.

Once that possibility became a reality, suddenly you're entitled to compensation? Horseshit."

Well said.

I haven't been following this debacle, but I have seen some modders attacking users for "taking away their dream of making money off of mods" and in response will no longer be uploading free mods any more. How childish.

WightMage wrote: Personally, I think modders should be compensated at some point, but I agree that the end goal of modding should not be financial, for reasons stated over the past three news threads.

WightMage wrote: FavoredSoul, I get that the modders who joined the initial program (and were subsequently burned, both by users and Valve/Bethesda) were for the most part wrongly attacked, but I'm honestly confused as to how you can believe that mod-authors were vilified alone.

I've been watching these comments threads for six days too long, and from what I've seen, the hatred has passed from Valve/Bethesda, to SPECIFIC mod authors, back to Valve, back to Bethesda, stayed with Bethesda, back to Valve, and now that the system is dead, focused on mod users, many of whom were in fact DEFENDING the right of mod authors to get paid if they so wished. When people started attacking *you*, it was because you posted a reply that attacked mod users, who in turn thought that *you* were being entitled.

Do you see the problem here? This isn't helping anything. Anytime anyone creates a large post written entirely in the spirit of passion infused hatred, it just brews more hatred and we hear each other even less and less and yell more and more in response to being heard less.

It's only getting worse, and everyone involved with this riot mongering is culpable, even the OP of this thread. But from what I gather, he and several others like him only posted this because he felt he was being attacked, just as you did originally.

TL;DR, we all seriously need to get a drink together and talk about s#*&#33; without throwing glasses at each other's face.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think the end goal if there is one for me is maybe getting a JOB out of it, not money. Not necessarily as a game designer but I find that what is my hobby actually allows me to learn a lot of skills.

A job (which modding can feel like sometimes) is about more than money, it is about realising your potential as a human being. What was offered was a job contract, and a lousy illegal one at that which had next to no protection for anyone except themselves and a few others.

Now I like to believe that there are some great people at both Beth and Val but with things the way they are in the world they are sometimes thrown into situations and make very bad decisions in the process. The problem with big business. This does not excuse what they did but it should not mean that there cannot be an open dialogue with them so as we can express our fears and concerns so that (as this is probably inevitable) we can find a compromise that we agree on. Authors and users alike. I think we must also argue that ending free modding altogether will be their undoing eventually.

Sorry I do not know you either and I have just mouthed off my opinions on your post but I just feel there are some deep issues here we need to get to grips with.

That's my 2 cents... or what ever the hell people are saying nowadays ;D

this is pretty much my entire problem with Valve's handing of this clusterfeic

They took an existing and very healthy community and did the one thing absolutely guaranteed to cause an ideological war. The level of mismanagement is staggering, and I'll be amazed if whoever was responsible for this debacle still has a job.

[belting]

I'm relatively new to the Nexus and modding (about 6 mo). I endorse a mod when I know it benefits or aids my enjoyment of the game. I have never donated to any mod author. I appreciate their work, but how much could I should I donate? Or do you only give to the big ones, the near DLC size mods. But would that be fair to the guys that make NPCs or tools or weapons or...

 

So, to all you authors, a big THANK YOU! I appreciate the time and effort you put in.

[Vesuvius1745]

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609, #24802804, #24802979, #24803189, #24803484, #24803499, #24803564, #24803639, #24803729, #24803904, #24804179, #24804294, #24804639, #24804809, #24805479, #24805499, #24806059, #24806324, #24806514, #24806754, #24806814, #24806854, #24807069, #24807204, #24807289, #24807309, #24807344, #24807574, #24807704, #24807719, #24807814, #24807909, #24808129, #24808364, #24808374, #24808739, #24808754, #24809559, #24809844, #24809854, #24809864, #24810014, #24810319, #24810439, #24810499, #24810934, #24810994, #24811234, #24811544 are all replies on the same post.

DaddyDirection wrote:

greggorypeccary wrote: Read my post, I used the nexus and it was very nice. It is a little blind to the fact that it does very well on the labors of un paid modders. It does not share the wealth with the ones that earn it for them. since you get free mods it seems fine to you. If you read my post I think you'll find that what I find is shameful really is that the nexus expects you to pay the modders. I think most of that onus is on them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The dirty secret here is Greggory gets free mods too. He's been enjoying the work of other people in the community for years. He's used the free utilities and resources provided to the community for free as well. But instead of paying-it-forward like all of the mod authors whose work he has enjoyed, he now wants to profit off of what others have allowed him to do.

greggorypeccary wrote: Its no dirty secret. I have been a contributing member of this community for some time. I'm proud of my contributions and any one can see them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Gregory, I see exactly zero contributions from you. Are you one of those modders who threw a temper tantrum and hid all your mods?

greggorypeccary wrote: You could hope but you'd be wrong.

pintocat wrote: greggorypeccary has a mod. You, on the other hand, have zero. If you've got no contributions to the community, you have no place talking down to someone who actually has.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: So all of this crying from Gregory over a single mod? Hilarious. If your mod is so wonderful, why don't you try and sell it to Bethesda? They could incorporate it into their next DLC.

sunshinenbrick wrote: No offence to any mod creator but money is not the only thing people can contribute.

greggorypeccary wrote: Vesuvius1745

The more you say the more apparent your ignorance becomes.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Sunshine is right. The "well, umm, what have you contributed?" reply is just a way to avoid addressing the points made.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm being serious Greggory, and not insulting you. If your mods are so great, why don't you try and sell them to Bethesda or some other game company? Crying about not being able to sell them on Valve on the Nexus is a pointless endeavor.

Or better yet, why not get a job at a game company? I used to work at Electronic Arts in the early 2000s. Redwood Shores in California. The pay is good, the benefits are good, and you get to work on games for a living.

greggorypeccary wrote: Again I'm not crying. I'm fine, my mod was free and always will be. My payment was friends and knowledge. If i were to do more I'd want money. If that makes me a greedy monster taking away your free stuff in your eyes, so be it. I'll sleep tonight.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Fair enough, Gregory. I used to create mods for Morrowind. My payment was the enjoyment of doing it. I've started a few mods for Skyrim, and if I ever get around to finishing them, they will be released for free as well. There are many reasons I wouldn't want to get paid, but one of them is because I have enjoyed the free content other people like you have given to the community over the years. It wouldn't seem right to take payment. It's kind of like those "give a penny, take a penny" bowls you see at convenience stores. Or the person in front of you at Starbucks who paid for your drink.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Greggory I really like your mod, it looks like a lot of time and effort went in to it and I think you should never let anyone tell you how to or not to follow your ambitions. However the system that Valvethesda tried to set up was exploitative, turning honest do good modders into slave developers and customer support workers and making people who buy mods, cash cows.

I have no problem with encouraging people to form collective game development projects that can become paid for content, but that was not what they put on the table. Realise your own worth and fight for a better deal from the hand in the sky.

greggorypeccary wrote: I'm not even talking about Steam or Bethesda. I like Bethesda, A lot. To me it is the Nexus that should be nuturing the modders mainly because they profit from them. The nexus is the one who benefits from the community and the modders. Its time to give something back. They stand to the side while the community fights between modders and users and it plays into their hands while they pretend they don't realize they are part of it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do. I agree that there needs to be a higher mandate of cohesion, however a top-down approach can only do so much.

If you have not already have a read of the posts in the following Nexus forum:

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/

While this only scratches the surface it can hopefully start a communal consensus on what role we all play in this giant machine.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm not sure Nexus is making a profit. It was my understanding that Dark0ne runs this site at a loss. A labor of love.

Capitalism is the best economic system we've discovered thus far, but it has its flaws. One of those flaws is there is always a "race to the bottom"--hamburger patties get smaller, the toaster burns out faster, and just the general overall quality of everything slowly goes down over time. And all in the name of maximizing profits. There is no reason to believe this paradigm wouldn't happen with game mods.

Take a great mod like Falskaar for example. The author put a ton of time and energy into this expansion, and churned out a mod that, in my opinion, is heads above anything Bethesda has tried to peddle to us. Now what if he had been contracted by Bethesda to make it? All of a sudden there would be a deadline by which they expect it to be ready. They want it now now now because time is money, and the author wouldn't be able to take his time to put in all the details he otherwise would have. There might even be bugs he didn't have time to fix, or other shortcuts he had to take to make sure Bethesda had their product on time (and in corporate-America it ceases to be "art", and becomes a nameless PRODUCT--a widget on an assembly line whose sole purpose is to increase profit). I believe this is what happened to Skyrim. The programmers were rushed, and released a bug-filled, and partially incomplete product. In fact I think they just quickly ported it from the console version.

Not to mention that the number of mods required to make Skyrim enjoyable (say at $1.99 each) is out of the budget for most gamers. I know I have over 100 mods myself. This means that save for a few exceptional mods, most mod authors won't be making very much because the gamers simply cannot afford it. There will be all these mods on some paysite that never (or only rarely) get downloaded, and eventually the mod authors will stop writing mods because unless they are churning out the next Falsksaar, it just isn't worth their time. This will most likely kill the modding community because by then Bethesda will probably have taken steps to close down sites like the Nexus because they will want to maintain their monopoly.

macintroll wrote: Quote Sunshinenbrick "This is a massively complex situation and in many regards the Nexus have their hands tied in what they can legally do."

Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part.

ChizFoShiz wrote: While you're right about the nexus, you're way off base about falskaar given that it was made as Alexander's "application" for employment from Bethesda, while I'm sure Alexander loves to make content and all and I wouldn't dream of making assumptions of what his stance would be here, his mod had the specific goal of gainful employment in mind.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Whether he put Falskaar on his resume or not is irrelevant. He worked on it for free, and gave it to the community for free, and he had no idea whether it would get him a job for sure or not.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Nexus is not allowed to make direct profit from mods, as I gather from the legal premise Bethesda has put down in its EULA (mods must be free). By paying people through revenue they would have to include taxes and therefore be bordering on being classified as employees and would in many ways become competition to Bethesda. Youtube own the content uploaded, Nexus does not it is still technically Bethesda's property.

Additionally I think Nexus would rather avoid the headache of having to decide who is able to enter such a scheme and who is not. Especially as the creation of a mod is rarely the work of a single individual.

The crunch is Bethesda are very flexible on this issue because they make A LOT of money out of it, steer the money in other directions and they will quickly bare their teeth I can assure you.

macintroll wrote: @sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.
The money is given ONLY because of popularity of the youtubber's page and the number of ads clicked.
2) Youtube is not the proprietary of your videos.
3) For multi-modders mod, i think it's there own work to share retribution % to the different persons who have work together, not nexus not any one else.
Moderation has to occur for sure, but they show by the past that they can do this very well (banning bad boys & girls)
4) Well yes bethesda can do what they want with their game, and also can stop the nexus tomorrow if they want.

freedom613 wrote: @Sunshine, is this in response to Mac's post: "Not really sure why nexus should be tied for adding an ads earning to modders.

The same thing exist on youtube where youtubbers/players can showcase videos game walk threw , reviews, or simply their gameplay and get some $ simply because they have xxx views.
Nobodies even bethesda ever complain about this. but the fact is, they are making money when playing a game ^^

It works because what is rewarded in this case is not the content itself, it's the audience, the more audience the more incomes (basic advertising earnings concept)

And more, the content itself is still FREE OF CHARGE for the end-user, and for me it's the best part."

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Again, Sunshine is right. The Youtube thing people keep bringing up is also a false analogy, because intellectual property laws make a distinction between profiting off of someone's IP directly, or from the incidental use of that IP.

With Youtube, Bethesda's IP is not being violated. You don't get to play Skyrim for free, nor do you benefit from anything for free that would normally defer to Bethesda for some sort of profit. You are just watching someone ELSE play Skyrim--and that person (presumably) bought Skyrim and has a legal right to not only play it, but to film themselves playing it, and then they can do whatever they want with the video of them playing Skyrim.

When you design something with their creation kit, you are directly utilizing their IP from start to finish, and your mod requires Skyrim to play. Bethesda's EULA allows you to trade the mod with friends, put it on a website, or do a lot of things with it as long as you aren't trying to make a profit.

greggorypeccary wrote: macintroll said
@sunshinenbrick
1) It's not nexus who has to pay the modder. youtube does not pay the youtubber, each youtubber make a single contract with google adsense, and adsense give the money.

Yes but the Nexus takes all of the advertising money already so they would have to part with some and some subscription money too. If they are willing.

Marstonn wrote: No, the youtube have "networks", these guys have deals with devs and are allowed to monetize on game videos, the youtuber must be part of a network (Machinima, Youtube, etc).

Edit, example: MMoxreview the guy from Skyrim Mods Weekly is a part of Machinima, so that's why he can monetize.

greggorypeccary wrote: I must admit to complete ignorance to how that works. I will check it out though.

sunshinenbrick wrote: The money from advertising goes to Nexus first and they would have to distribute it. Yes you are right that Nexus could strike a deal with the ad companies that the revenue is split prior to this but that is very dodgy from Bethesda's point of view... and well Google own ad sense and licence uploaded videos so they can do what they want.

Google do not own the video but they own youtube and therefor the right for your video to be uploaded to it.

Modders have enough to do without having to write business plans and start calculating how to split revenue. If they are organised enough to be making that much money out of it then they will most likely get a call from Bethesda asking them if they would like a job.

However if Bethesda could get them to become self employed (which is what the recent experiment would have entailed) then they would prefer to do that as they have little to no responsibility for them... but still make a load of money.

macintroll wrote: @Vesuvius1745
Well i should make videos instead of mods ^^

To be more serious : you miss an important point :
Bethesda allow site like nexus to gain $500.000 a year from ads, while being a platform for downloading free mods.. made with the creation kit and their assets. And the sole maker of some of the said mods would not be able to gain some buck from the same kind of earnings ???
crazy.

Again the mod is not SELL, the mod is free, the mod doesn't give a cent to the modder, only the ads give money. And that's absolutely legal, beacause i can already put ads on my own website showing my mods with no risks.

@sunshinenbrick : sorry miss but you should learn how adsense/adwords works. and nor google, nor youtube own your videos they are plateform providers period.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'd like to know where you are getting this financial info about the Nexus. It was my understanding they consistently run at a loss. Running a popular website takes a lot of time, and one that uses a ton of bandwidth can be very expensive.

sunshinenbrick wrote: If your video violates copyright they can take it down immediately without your consent. They own the licence for your video to be distributed on their network.

One should not try compare the youtube model to the Nexus, modder, Bethesda, Valve model... they really are very different beasts.

macintroll wrote: @Marstonn
Anybody is able to monetize his video on Google.
Being in a "network" (what does it really mean in your mind ?) is not necessary , but for sure better for the number of views.

and concerning what can be "game press" well of course they are allowed, they are free advertiser for the games companies ^^ new games are send to them for reviews , even presents etc..

What is not authorized is to diffuse a video with Copyright content (the video itself, music etc...)

macintroll wrote: quote "You cannot compare the youtube setup to the Nexus, modder, Bethesda, Valve model... they really are very different beasts."

Well so explain me why Nexus is allowed to make $500.000+ / year in ads earnings...
then explain me why i can't make some $ the same way, thanks.

macintroll wrote: @Vesuvius1745

Some days ago Dark0ne said he was spending 500.000$ a year only for servers renting and additional costs. So i take this as a base.. but it could be far more in fact ^^
As the only nexus earnings are Ads.. (and some memberships) .. it's easy to understand how much is gain from ads earnings.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I don't understand how you are extrapolating profit from what Dark0ne is saying he spends to keep the site running. It sounds to me like this is a huge money sink for him.

greggorypeccary wrote: It isn't

macintroll wrote: @Vesuvius1745

Ok if you think so, but what lead you to think this ? have you found some numbers ?
A company (black tree gaming) own the nexus, and make money like any company, has operating costs like any other , at least the goal is to maintain an equilibrium. No one can work loosing money for long you know, and Nexus is growing "open to all games", it doesn't sound like a loosing company.
So if you have at least $500.000 to spend each year to make your business active, you need to earn at minima as much money somewhere.
And apart from nexus network what are the incomes ? none i'm aware of.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Please remember the money made by the Nexus is for the use of the Nexus, not for individual mods. This is why they are allowed to do it.

In legal terms when one donates for a mod they are not paying for the mod they are actually donating to the modder themselves, this is why Bethesda turn a blind eye. It is advantageous to them and it is also somewhat on the fence legally on whether the donation was for the mod or just because you like to support what the modder does. It really is a setup that is based on good will a trust, both from Bethesda's point of view and Nexus and its users.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I have no evidence of anything. I was going on Dark0ne's word that he runs this site at a loss. I have no reason to believe otherwise, and I would be surprised if a site like this was making any significant amount of profit. He spends a lot of money on upkeep, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is making at least that from donations/ads. I have friends who made a ton of money off of Bitcoins, and are now engaging in labors of love that are also money sinks.

Do you have some information the rest of us don't?

macintroll wrote: quote : " Do you have some information the rest of us don't?"
All key financial info on companies are publicly available (thus it's last year for most yet) and detailled info can be bought if you want.
Google the company name you'll find more info. (not very difficult)

I'm not here to accuse nexus of anything, just to point the fact that they are allowed to make money from ads, is it enough, is it too much ?, it's not the point of my discussion, honestly I don't care, the "service" is good here, i really appreciate what Dark0ne has made and how it helps the "community".

But if they can do it, rightfully gaining money providing access to modders content ...why not also the modders who provide each part of the content of this site ?.
I see it as a win-win solution : free mods for end users and modders rewarded with some $

Again in this formula, it's not the mod which is giving money to the modder, it's the audience it generate like elsewhere, exactly what does the nexus to pay their bills.

greggorypeccary wrote: The world is full of hugely profitable companies whose whose image is " We're your friend. We're here to help you" . And don't let the words Non Profit fool you either. My advise is that when they offer you the Kool-Aide tomorrow.....Don't drink it.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I suppose you could make money from ads if you allowed them inside the actual mod... I am not sure of the legality of that however, interesting thought.

My idea behind this is you could put Coke billboards up in Fallout, for example, and gain revenue from that. Problem is even if this were legal, I'm not sure people would like it.

I think Bethesda actually have to look at where they stand on individual modders making money from advertising their mods on the Nexus, or elsewhere for that matter. Either way it is not a decision the Nexus can make. It could work to Bethesda's advantage as they will be gaining free marketing. Only real issue is the type of mod, does it adhere to what Bethesda want to be associated with. Lord of the Rings mods would bring unwanted legal action, as too would many of the sex mods.

DreamingGirl wrote: If you don't like Nexus 'making money' off your mods, you are free to set up your own site to host them on, get advertizement and see how much you actually earn from it :)

greggorypeccary wrote: I know. I never said they can't make money. You are mis- paraphrazing

macintroll wrote: quote : "I suppose you could make money from ads if you allowed them inside the actual mod... I am not sure of the legality of that however, interesting thought."
Argh no please not that ! some brand have already much more ad they deserve in bethesda games (nuka cola ? ^^ )
I'm just speaking of a "generic" web banner on the mod page, no more, no less.

Do not expect to be rich with this, but you still can have some $ reward.

DreamingGirl wrote: What I mean is, if you don't like it, DO something abut it instead of complaining about it, that will never get you anywhere. There are always other options! :)

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ macintroll

Ha! No, I don't like the idea myself either, just thinking aloud :)

EDIT: I could cope with a banner. Beats some of the noisey video ADS you get, not that I see them when logged in.

EDIT2: MODS?! I meant ADS... it's been a busy few days. Typo fixed now *blush*

greggorypeccary wrote: I'm not complaining. I'm pushing for change.I thank you all for your opinions but I must be going. Twilight Zone is on.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Thanks for all you points too, important we know how each other feel. L8r

greggorypeccary wrote: I'm sorry but one thing sums up my point.

Change must come because paid modding is coming and those who don't adapt will go by the wayside even the Nexus..
That pretty much sums it up.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Always the last word, sorry :/

I agree it is very hard to avoid with how the world is. That is not to say it will be the end of free modding altogether, and THAT is what we MUST fight for. Sorry again, I'm... just... getting a little emotional... here...

Peace.

People have been saying "paid mods are coming!" for years. Hell, ever since the Sims started trying it like 10 years ago, and for various games since then. It didn't work then, it won't work now, and it will never work. If you want my opinion on exactly why it won't work, I have written several posts on the subject.

The bottom line is the modding scene has been doing just fine for over 15 years without anyone ever getting paid a cent. As the saying goes: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[jediakyrol]

In response to post #24784099. #24784289, #24785139, #24810294, #24811099, #24812869 are all replies on the same post.

ReconTA wrote:

bullpcp wrote: "It took 1 entire day for the Skyrim community to be hit by this bad idea. The maker of SkyUI, the most popular SKyrim mod in its history announced he wouldn’t support it anymore and was going to be making a pay only version for the future."

I would just like to point out that this modder would not have otherwise updated his mod at all. Essentially the paid for option presented a mod that otherwise would not have existed.

Wolvenlight wrote: These are all fantastic points and I agree with every single one.

ReconTA wrote: @bullpcp Well the mod is already next to perfect, so the benefits of that are negligible, and compared to the damage it would cause... definitely not worth it.

WightMage wrote: Probably one of the better posts on this topic.

Thoragoros wrote: That about sums it up.

Very good points.

Thank you...I thought I was the only one who remembered the SIMS debacle. My first words on this were "Here we f*ing go again!"
but really...it's like every 5 years mods get mixed with money and everyone loses...Doom with D!Zone, the SIMS web-store crap, the Spore "player created content" crap, now this. so...a few years from now, someone'll try it again, another modding community will tear itself apart, and we'll enter the waiting cycle again.

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24784099. #24784289, #24785139, #24810294, #24811099, #24812869, #24813719 are all replies on the same post.

ReconTA wrote:

bullpcp wrote: "It took 1 entire day for the Skyrim community to be hit by this bad idea. The maker of SkyUI, the most popular SKyrim mod in its history announced he wouldn’t support it anymore and was going to be making a pay only version for the future."

I would just like to point out that this modder would not have otherwise updated his mod at all. Essentially the paid for option presented a mod that otherwise would not have existed.

Wolvenlight wrote: These are all fantastic points and I agree with every single one.

ReconTA wrote: @bullpcp Well the mod is already next to perfect, so the benefits of that are negligible, and compared to the damage it would cause... definitely not worth it.

WightMage wrote: Probably one of the better posts on this topic.

Thoragoros wrote: That about sums it up.

Very good points.

jediakyrol wrote: Thank you...I thought I was the only one who remembered the SIMS debacle. My first words on this were "Here we f*ing go again!"
but really...it's like every 5 years mods get mixed with money and everyone loses...Doom with D!Zone, the SIMS web-store crap, the Spore "player created content" crap, now this. so...a few years from now, someone'll try it again, another modding community will tear itself apart, and we'll enter the waiting cycle again.

This really can boil down to lack of action on Bethesda's part.

Standalone mods for sale is not really so much of an issue as the market will level out, although quality checks and copyright is critically important. This will also allow the free modding community to stay alive because some modders will not (want to) meet these standards.

 

EDIT: Whoa! Let's not forget the fact that every computer is different... imagine the customer support levels involved with that! Phew!

The real problem as I see it is mods, like SKYUI, are essential for many other mods to function. Official DLC does split the community into threads as some people will own them or not, as in my case. This is bearable and can create diversity and experimentation, and is still based on choice providing the original release is fully functional on its own.

 

SkyUI is different because it is part of the fundamental game design and functionality.

Example: I want Mod B but this requires Mod A. Mod C needs Mod B. So now I end up having to buy Mod A and Mod B just to use Mod C. See how this traps the player into a cycle of hidden costs to playing their games.

Factor in the online aspirations of companies it may mean that one player cannot play against another player... without spending money that was not part of the original contract the customer had with the developer. Yes the Sale of Goods Act, EULA and TOC must protect the Developer AND the Customer. Bethesda already ride a bumpy road on this issue as it is debatable their games are ready for release as it is.

What Bethesda should have done is offer a contract to either employ or buy the SkyUI project in order to incorporate it into a patch that was then distributed to players for free. This way the people who made the mod are happy and everyone else sees the ultimate fruit of a collective effort.

 

 

EDIT: In retrospect, regarding DLC such as Hearthfire, it could be argued that Bethesda owe some Intellectual Property down payments to many modders who helped them come up with the idea. Just a thought.

Edited April 30, 2015 by sunshinenbrick