Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[lFostelR]

In response to post #24832564. #24833079, #24833104, #24833179, #24833249, #24833549, #24833659, #24833844, #24834234 are all replies on the same post.

Harbringe wrote:

I get what you're saying Ves... I really do, but you're kidding yourself
You're telling me, if you about my $5 horse armor, and it caused a CTD
No better yet.... Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?
Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case. Better yet say 100 million users suffered the same fate, once any type of class action was taken do you think they guy in charge would come after me.... Or the very deep pockets of the ones who provided you acess to said product.
Come on guys, I get how the world works, you do to. This was never a feasible concern.
I mean do you really think the million dollar lawyers these two companies have at their disposal didnt think of this, if the guys on the forums did?

 

 

Sorry xbi on this one you dont know how the world works . Those million dollar lawyers these two companies have did think about this , thats why they had the modders contractually obligated to be the ones to be providing support for the mods and not themselves . That way if something goes wrong there would be only the modder that a plaintiff could go after . Your right they did think about this and they covered their own asses but not the modders . Thats how the world works.

retnav98 wrote: She already got it handed to her in the thread you're pulling this post from...C'mon man...

foster xbl wrote: In all honesty, no one I going to pursue legal action of any kind, over a CTD. This aspect of the debate, is pointless. Tell me you would invest your time/resource to sue me over a CTD (which is the true worest case scenario btw, concerning incompatibility) that was PROVEN (Who says it was my mod that was the incompatible one and not the other one) to be cause by my $5 hose armor.
I mean really, the week before this started the Mortal Kombat X issue popped up, did we see courts filling to sue NR studios or Valve?

sunshinenbrick wrote: If its the kind of bottomless pit economics that one is after, eat your heart out. Not everyone's cup of tea though.

lereddit wrote: Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem

foster xbl wrote: "Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem "

unless.....they were offered the same refund?
As they were allowed to do?

But fair enough, I admit I am not a legal expert.
You guys may be right on this issue.
I'll completely and fully admit I don't know anything about how t would've worked in the
absolute worst case scenario. I just keep thinking though, this would be less than any measurable percent.

sunshinenbrick wrote: We will fight your rights, that what this community should stand for. We are all part of this together, what affects one will affect others.

Right now I'm off to the pub! Wish I could take y'all with me to put the world to rights :)

L8r dudes and dudettes.

lereddit wrote: A refund would settle this, but someone may not accept a refund because he is so pissed that he wants to sue you.

This is some serious grasping for straws from my side btw, something like this is very unlikely to happen. What's more likely is a modder uploading something that doesn't resemble his description at all.

User reviews were disabled on the workshop until you bought the mod, so you couldn't really know whether you bought the real deal or a scam.

User protection was pretty shitty, paired with the 25% means that both sides were screwed over by Valve/Bethesda.
No problem with Patreon as an alternative method of financing modder's efforts, but this deal HAD to be cancelled, since absolutely every side of the community was being exploited.

retnav98 wrote: Foster,


Clearly there was a different attitude toward potential legal issues or Valve and Bethesda's "Million Dollar Lawyers" wouldn't have bothered to divest themselves of the legal responsibility.
Valve chose to treat those who asked for immediate refunds as disruptive...they locked people out from being able to buy for a week...that policy wasn't benefitting modders. It was another move to eliminate loss due to "Buyer's remorse..Mod incompatibility or w/e the purchaser had for breakfast that caused them to reconsider their purchase.

You know Good and well that STEAM is a DAYCARE...and you had to figure that they would Unleash 'BOB and throw fits. You know more than how the REAL WORLD works..you know how that world works...So why did you believe this was ever going to work?


I'll second Sunshine's question from the original thread, " Do you support this Business Model"?

Are you asking if I supported the paid workshop as it was?
If so I tell it to you straight
I do not know, as I never took part in it, I have no idea how it would've worked given the chance. All I have access to is the information that I could find on it from the outside.

Now to be more blunt. Yes I fully supported the concept. Feel free to dig through my post, I openly still support the concept. The percentages as they were....I have to say yes, I personally think they were "close" to fair.

[sirius2u]

the amount of chatter on this topic defo proves that this community is alive and kicking,

at least thats positive.

 

I think it is wrong for the mod authors to think that because some or most opposed this idea they were immediatly against the modders that were in favor of it.

Sure some folks overreacted and got personal, but isnt that something that also Bethesda is subject to ?

If you put a product out there and put a price tag on it, is it not to be expected that it draws some critics, maybe some more loud mouthed than others ?

 

I like to think that the silent majority was not against the idea, but was critical about the conditions and its target group, which Bethesda failed to recognize.

That many folks kept silent doesnt automaticly mean they were unsupportive but

simply that they didnt know enough to comment on since there was a lot of questions.

 

This episode only showed how detached Bethesda is from its own player base,

maybe the simplest example was how they didnt seem to know that the hardcore mod users would

never risk downloading a mod via valve, which could end up breaking their game.

 

Bethesda behaved like an elefant in a china cabinet and got what they deserved, after reading some of their comments I have become curious though about the work conditions

with their own projects and how much they pay those guys,

 

roughly quoted " what are you guys whining about ? We dont even pay our own team this much cash"

 

Maybe this explains why Bethesda games need modding and that the modders are doing them a favor, I speak for myself when I say I would gladly pay for a DLC but expecting me to pay for something that puts a shoe on my toons foot, was a bit too much.

[macintroll]

In response to post #24827544. #24828559, #24828899, #24829149, #24829774, #24830084, #24830089, #24830244, #24830269, #24830279, #24830434, #24830474, #24830494, #24830544, #24830624, #24830709, #24830784, #24830789, #24830854, #24830894, #24830919, #24831079, #24831109, #24831114, #24831884, #24831959, #24832009, #24832024, #24832844, #24832949 are all replies on the same post.

lereddit wrote: Phew, we fought for the good cause and won.

Sad for the modders we have lost in the aftermath but we did it.

We can be proud for not just bending over to Valve and Bethesda.

foster xbl wrote: You "won" and you're "proud"?
Fair enough but try to remember one thing, this "war" you fought was never against Valve or Bethesda, neither of them were harmed in the slightest. Every user which was up in arms, will continue to support them by using their service, and buying their products. Your great "victory" was over the people who have freely and willingly given to this "community".
Enjoy your spoils
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65261

Xavathos wrote: @ foster xbl

It's good to see people with their eyes open. :)

lereddit wrote: Why do you think you should get money for something you do for fun?
I love to write but I don't make any money from it, and never intend to.

What about Trainwiz, Fore, SureAI and all the other modders who opposed this shady practise? Are they all wrong too? Considering that they have created impressive mods they could easily charge money for it, why do you think they don't?

Stop being melodramatic. Modding is a hobby, not a job. If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev. Easy as that.

foster xbl wrote: I don't. Never once said I did.
Now answer me this...
What makes you think you should be able to deny me the opportunity to make money off something I create for profit, with the blessing of the ip owner? No-one ever once said anything about taking away your free mods. This was about the future, and how countless authors were given a chance to profit from their works, moving forward.

lereddit wrote: It's against the greater good of the modding quality, that's why.

Look at the games with paid user content, do you think that's how you want the quality of TES modding to end?

You know what those authors would have done with the chance, you were able to see it on the workshop.

Not even two days passed until we had in-game ads, early access mods, premium versions. It's all downhill from there, I almost thought I was looking at EA, not established members of the community.


SureAI published a nice article about the restrictions of the deal. Big mods wouldn't profit at all. Quantity=/=Quality.

foster xbl wrote: "If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev."

This stupid reasoning, that's been spewed so much in this thread, is literally unforgivable. THAT was the opportunity we were given, to develope content for profit. To become a freelance "game dev"

sunshinenbrick wrote: With no rights.

blackasm wrote: so true foster xbl

foster xbl wrote:
I should not be allowed to profit from my time/efforts.... Because it's " against the greater good"?!
W
T
F?
Please enlighten me on this "greater good" ..... And how my efforts would hinder it.
And also.....wow

lereddit wrote: You want the chance to be a freelancer game dev?

Maybe you should start making good mods then :^)

sunshinenbrick wrote: Say you sell a mod that breaks another person's game. Who are Bethesda going to direct them to? Just be sure to be ready to take on ALL the responsibilities that will come with being a freelance game developer the way it was offered.

foster xbl wrote: "With no rights"

So do you think professional developers
Retain "rights" over the work they produce at
A studio? Think the guy who meshes the steel
Sword gets say so in how his work is used by Bethesda?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Lereddit is right.

Mods are not made in a vacuum. You are benefiting from every other mod, utility and resource that has been given to the community for FREE for years. Some mods that ended up on Valve actually had other people's content in them, and some relied on other mods to even run (such as FORE, SKSE etc.). The authors of these utilities have spent countless hours programming at a skill level much higher than is required from a mod author to give these resources to the community--and they did it with ZERO expectation of anything other than YOU, mod author, PAY-IT-FORWARD. You piggy-backing on the work of all these people for a profit is of course going to spark a backlash.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Not rights over the finished product, rights as an "employee". Your right not to have to take all the blame and responsibility for when anything went wrong.

foster xbl wrote: This breaking other mods argument is also a failed
Perspective. Who's to blame? Well that'd be you the
User who chose to purchase two items without researching their function.
Who's to blame if I buy round pegs for my square hole?

lereddit wrote: Yep, the entitled user is to blame when the mod authors couldn't be bothered to write the incompatibilities on the mod page.

Typical

CaladanAnduril wrote: Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed them

sunshinenbrick wrote: That is why there ALSO must be user protection. Who is to say a mod will not sold as doing something and then doing something else or just not doing it? Even mod makers use other mods. This is also assuming Bethesda tell freelance developers what shape the hole should be in in the first place... which they have notouriously been elusive about. Probably because they are figuring stuff out as they go along, like many pioneering and experimental developers do.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster, I'm afraid you don't understand how the world works in this regard. Once you sign a contract and start charging, legally, everything changes.

With this, you wouldn't be an employee for Bethesda, but a private contractor. And this is much MUCH worse. Any mod you release will have the same consumer protection as anything else--including APPs in Apple's store. You have a whole new set of responsibilities now: such as making sure your mod works in conjunction with as many other possible mods as possible. And just like an APP in the Apple store, if it ganks someone's system, YOU are legally responsible. You are also responsible for troubleshooting for people who have purchased your product, and all the headaches that come from that. You can no longer just say "download at your own risk" as you have been able to with mods you've released for free. Bethesda's hands are washed of this, as you are just a "contractor". You do all the work, deal with all the headaches, and they get most of the money.

freedom613 wrote: @Foster
One of the problems with paid mods was a precedent it setup:

Suppose a company, ElectronicSoft, wants to release day 1 DLC. They know they are going to get flak so instead they get a shell company: Ubigames to release the DLC as a paid "mod".


If they get flak, Electronicsoft can just say "Oh no, we are against Day1 DLC, but we fully support modders getting paid for their work".

As you can see, this problem is a whole lot larger than modders wanting some cash. This sets a bad precedent and for that reason must be stopped in it's tracks.


They can also do this with their DLC, cut out the time and cost running the already poor quality beta testing of DLC and just release it through their shell company as a 3rd Party DLC while reaping all the profits minus Valve's (if they don't decide to cut out the middle man) cut and have none of the accountability.


So while this program is allegedly built on good intentions (let us face it, Valve and Bethesda did this as a cash grab), much like the PATRIOT Act, there is a lot of wiggle room to put in less than favourable business practices.
=========
So yes, paywalling had to go for the greater good. The gaming industry is exploitative, and will wiggle into everything they can to make a profit. Now this does not mean that we are against modder compensation. One of the problems with this whole fiasco was the strawmen setup by both parties. Now I am not talking about donations, anyone here who believes the status quo worked is being naive at best. A system similar to Patreon, which Youtubers and Minecraft modders have been using would be a well recieved solution.

My economics professor gave me a fun quote that I will never forget "Always use the right tool for the job, never use a hammer to put in a screw if there is a screw driver near by". He meant this mostly in marketing by giving the example of using Television to advertise your company in a town of luddites, but the same can be applied here. Paywalling is using a hammer to put in a screw, when there are other tools available.

foster xbl wrote: "Yep, the entitled user is to blame when the mod authors couldn't be bothered to write the incompatibilities on the mod page.

Typical"


If someone is stupid enough to pay their hard earned money
For a product with a clear definition of what it is or does....
Then, yeah, pretty much.
Of course these are the same people who need told coffee is hot.

lereddit wrote: You didn't even bother to read my post properly.

If you are cherrypicking arguments, at least do it less obvious

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster,

That coffee analogy is great. There ARE a lot of stupid consumers out there, but you know what? YOU are STILL responsible for their mess-ups. In the McDonald's analogy you alluded to, McDonald's was held responsible to the tune of I think about a million dollars.

foster xbl wrote: I get what you're saying Ves... I really do, but you're kidding yourself
You're telling me, if you about my $5 horse armor, and it caused a CTD
No better yet.... Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?
Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case. Better yet say 100 million users suffered the same fate, once any type of class action was taken do you think they guy in charge would come after me.... Or the very deep pockets of the ones who provided you acess to said product.
Come on guys, I get how the world works, you do to. This was never a feasible concern.
I mean do you really think the million dollar lawyers these two companies have at their disposal didnt think of this, if the guys on the forums did?

sunshinenbrick wrote: Do you support this model of business?

lereddit wrote: It won't be the lawyers of Bethesda who have to deal with that.
It would be the lawyer of the modder, because now the modder is legally responsible.
Modder tricks users into buying a mod that doesn't do what it promises?
You better bet he's getting sued for that.

"Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case."

Do you even know how lawyers work?
If you pay the lawyer enoguh, he's gonna do wahtever you want, no matter how ridiculous the case is.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster,

I assume you live in the United States? In most states any Cause of Action in which less than $5,000 in damages is declared goes to Small Claims court. Attorneys aren't allowed in Small Claims court (unless they are representing themselves).

What this means is people wouldn't need an attorney, and the process of suing you is much easier. I've seen neighbors sue other neighbors over a mere tree being cut down. People have sued other people over too much noise coming from their homes after a certain time (and won). People can and will sue for as little as $10. But that $10 also will include your time to go to court, bringing evidence, and trying to defend yourself. I'm not saying you WOULD get sued, but if your mod messes up someone's computer (or some other issue), they certainly have the right to sue you.

Eiries wrote:

Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?

So what you're saying is... releasing a broken mod and charging people for it is a nonissue because its too difficult to punish the mod creator?

sunshinenbrick wrote: That whole idea is messed up as it will end with people just not buying Bethesda games to begin with. Not worth the risk.

When i hear all of you with all kind of mod problems you have... i wonder how you are still able to launch your game with any CTD :D :D

[lFostelR]

In response to post #24827544. #24828559, #24828899, #24829149, #24829774, #24830084, #24830089, #24830244, #24830269, #24830279, #24830434, #24830474, #24830494, #24830544, #24830624, #24830709, #24830784, #24830789, #24830854, #24830894, #24830919, #24831079, #24831109, #24831114, #24831884, #24831959, #24832009, #24832024, #24832844, #24832949, #24834759 are all replies on the same post.

lereddit wrote: Phew, we fought for the good cause and won.

Sad for the modders we have lost in the aftermath but we did it.

We can be proud for not just bending over to Valve and Bethesda.

foster xbl wrote: You "won" and you're "proud"?
Fair enough but try to remember one thing, this "war" you fought was never against Valve or Bethesda, neither of them were harmed in the slightest. Every user which was up in arms, will continue to support them by using their service, and buying their products. Your great "victory" was over the people who have freely and willingly given to this "community".
Enjoy your spoils
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65261

Xavathos wrote: @ foster xbl

It's good to see people with their eyes open. :)

lereddit wrote: Why do you think you should get money for something you do for fun?
I love to write but I don't make any money from it, and never intend to.

What about Trainwiz, Fore, SureAI and all the other modders who opposed this shady practise? Are they all wrong too? Considering that they have created impressive mods they could easily charge money for it, why do you think they don't?

Stop being melodramatic. Modding is a hobby, not a job. If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev. Easy as that.

foster xbl wrote: I don't. Never once said I did.
Now answer me this...
What makes you think you should be able to deny me the opportunity to make money off something I create for profit, with the blessing of the ip owner? No-one ever once said anything about taking away your free mods. This was about the future, and how countless authors were given a chance to profit from their works, moving forward.

lereddit wrote: It's against the greater good of the modding quality, that's why.

Look at the games with paid user content, do you think that's how you want the quality of TES modding to end?

You know what those authors would have done with the chance, you were able to see it on the workshop.

Not even two days passed until we had in-game ads, early access mods, premium versions. It's all downhill from there, I almost thought I was looking at EA, not established members of the community.


SureAI published a nice article about the restrictions of the deal. Big mods wouldn't profit at all. Quantity=/=Quality.

foster xbl wrote: "If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev."

This stupid reasoning, that's been spewed so much in this thread, is literally unforgivable. THAT was the opportunity we were given, to develope content for profit. To become a freelance "game dev"

sunshinenbrick wrote: With no rights.

blackasm wrote: so true foster xbl

foster xbl wrote:
I should not be allowed to profit from my time/efforts.... Because it's " against the greater good"?!
W
T
F?
Please enlighten me on this "greater good" ..... And how my efforts would hinder it.
And also.....wow

lereddit wrote: You want the chance to be a freelancer game dev?

Maybe you should start making good mods then :^)

sunshinenbrick wrote: Say you sell a mod that breaks another person's game. Who are Bethesda going to direct them to? Just be sure to be ready to take on ALL the responsibilities that will come with being a freelance game developer the way it was offered.

foster xbl wrote: "With no rights"

So do you think professional developers
Retain "rights" over the work they produce at
A studio? Think the guy who meshes the steel
Sword gets say so in how his work is used by Bethesda?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Lereddit is right.

Mods are not made in a vacuum. You are benefiting from every other mod, utility and resource that has been given to the community for FREE for years. Some mods that ended up on Valve actually had other people's content in them, and some relied on other mods to even run (such as FORE, SKSE etc.). The authors of these utilities have spent countless hours programming at a skill level much higher than is required from a mod author to give these resources to the community--and they did it with ZERO expectation of anything other than YOU, mod author, PAY-IT-FORWARD. You piggy-backing on the work of all these people for a profit is of course going to spark a backlash.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Not rights over the finished product, rights as an "employee". Your right not to have to take all the blame and responsibility for when anything went wrong.

foster xbl wrote: This breaking other mods argument is also a failed
Perspective. Who's to blame? Well that'd be you the
User who chose to purchase two items without researching their function.
Who's to blame if I buy round pegs for my square hole?

lereddit wrote: Yep, the entitled user is to blame when the mod authors couldn't be bothered to write the incompatibilities on the mod page.

Typical

CaladanAnduril wrote: Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed them

sunshinenbrick wrote: That is why there ALSO must be user protection. Who is to say a mod will not sold as doing something and then doing something else or just not doing it? Even mod makers use other mods. This is also assuming Bethesda tell freelance developers what shape the hole should be in in the first place... which they have notouriously been elusive about. Probably because they are figuring stuff out as they go along, like many pioneering and experimental developers do.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster, I'm afraid you don't understand how the world works in this regard. Once you sign a contract and start charging, legally, everything changes.

With this, you wouldn't be an employee for Bethesda, but a private contractor. And this is much MUCH worse. Any mod you release will have the same consumer protection as anything else--including APPs in Apple's store. You have a whole new set of responsibilities now: such as making sure your mod works in conjunction with as many other possible mods as possible. And just like an APP in the Apple store, if it ganks someone's system, YOU are legally responsible. You are also responsible for troubleshooting for people who have purchased your product, and all the headaches that come from that. You can no longer just say "download at your own risk" as you have been able to with mods you've released for free. Bethesda's hands are washed of this, as you are just a "contractor". You do all the work, deal with all the headaches, and they get most of the money.

freedom613 wrote: @Foster
One of the problems with paid mods was a precedent it setup:

Suppose a company, ElectronicSoft, wants to release day 1 DLC. They know they are going to get flak so instead they get a shell company: Ubigames to release the DLC as a paid "mod".


If they get flak, Electronicsoft can just say "Oh no, we are against Day1 DLC, but we fully support modders getting paid for their work".

As you can see, this problem is a whole lot larger than modders wanting some cash. This sets a bad precedent and for that reason must be stopped in it's tracks.


They can also do this with their DLC, cut out the time and cost running the already poor quality beta testing of DLC and just release it through their shell company as a 3rd Party DLC while reaping all the profits minus Valve's (if they don't decide to cut out the middle man) cut and have none of the accountability.


So while this program is allegedly built on good intentions (let us face it, Valve and Bethesda did this as a cash grab), much like the PATRIOT Act, there is a lot of wiggle room to put in less than favourable business practices.
=========
So yes, paywalling had to go for the greater good. The gaming industry is exploitative, and will wiggle into everything they can to make a profit. Now this does not mean that we are against modder compensation. One of the problems with this whole fiasco was the strawmen setup by both parties. Now I am not talking about donations, anyone here who believes the status quo worked is being naive at best. A system similar to Patreon, which Youtubers and Minecraft modders have been using would be a well recieved solution.

My economics professor gave me a fun quote that I will never forget "Always use the right tool for the job, never use a hammer to put in a screw if there is a screw driver near by". He meant this mostly in marketing by giving the example of using Television to advertise your company in a town of luddites, but the same can be applied here. Paywalling is using a hammer to put in a screw, when there are other tools available.

foster xbl wrote: "Yep, the entitled user is to blame when the mod authors couldn't be bothered to write the incompatibilities on the mod page.

Typical"


If someone is stupid enough to pay their hard earned money
For a product with a clear definition of what it is or does....
Then, yeah, pretty much.
Of course these are the same people who need told coffee is hot.

lereddit wrote: You didn't even bother to read my post properly.

If you are cherrypicking arguments, at least do it less obvious

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster,

That coffee analogy is great. There ARE a lot of stupid consumers out there, but you know what? YOU are STILL responsible for their mess-ups. In the McDonald's analogy you alluded to, McDonald's was held responsible to the tune of I think about a million dollars.

foster xbl wrote: I get what you're saying Ves... I really do, but you're kidding yourself
You're telling me, if you about my $5 horse armor, and it caused a CTD
No better yet.... Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?
Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case. Better yet say 100 million users suffered the same fate, once any type of class action was taken do you think they guy in charge would come after me.... Or the very deep pockets of the ones who provided you acess to said product.
Come on guys, I get how the world works, you do to. This was never a feasible concern.
I mean do you really think the million dollar lawyers these two companies have at their disposal didnt think of this, if the guys on the forums did?

sunshinenbrick wrote: Do you support this model of business?

lereddit wrote: It won't be the lawyers of Bethesda who have to deal with that.
It would be the lawyer of the modder, because now the modder is legally responsible.
Modder tricks users into buying a mod that doesn't do what it promises?
You better bet he's getting sued for that.

"Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case."

Do you even know how lawyers work?
If you pay the lawyer enoguh, he's gonna do wahtever you want, no matter how ridiculous the case is.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster,

I assume you live in the United States? In most states any Cause of Action in which less than $5,000 in damages is declared goes to Small Claims court. Attorneys aren't allowed in Small Claims court (unless they are representing themselves).

What this means is people wouldn't need an attorney, and the process of suing you is much easier. I've seen neighbors sue other neighbors over a mere tree being cut down. People have sued other people over too much noise coming from their homes after a certain time (and won). People can and will sue for as little as $10. But that $10 also will include your time to go to court, bringing evidence, and trying to defend yourself. I'm not saying you WOULD get sued, but if your mod messes up someone's computer (or some other issue), they certainly have the right to sue you.

Eiries wrote:

Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?

So what you're saying is... releasing a broken mod and charging people for it is a nonissue because its too difficult to punish the mod creator?

sunshinenbrick wrote: That whole idea is messed up as it will end with people just not buying Bethesda games to begin with. Not worth the risk.

macintroll wrote: When i hear all of you with all kind of mod problems you have... i wonder how you are still able to launch your game with any CTD :D :D

"So what you're saying is... releasing a broken mod and charging people for it is a nonissue because its too difficult to punish the mod creator? "

yes that's exactly what I'm saying..... come on...did that in any way sound like what I said?

[lereddit]

In response to post #24832564. #24833079, #24833104, #24833179, #24833249, #24833549, #24833659, #24833844, #24834234, #24834574 are all replies on the same post.

Harbringe wrote:

I get what you're saying Ves... I really do, but you're kidding yourself
You're telling me, if you about my $5 horse armor, and it caused a CTD
No better yet.... Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?
Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case. Better yet say 100 million users suffered the same fate, once any type of class action was taken do you think they guy in charge would come after me.... Or the very deep pockets of the ones who provided you acess to said product.
Come on guys, I get how the world works, you do to. This was never a feasible concern.
I mean do you really think the million dollar lawyers these two companies have at their disposal didnt think of this, if the guys on the forums did?

 

 

Sorry xbi on this one you dont know how the world works . Those million dollar lawyers these two companies have did think about this , thats why they had the modders contractually obligated to be the ones to be providing support for the mods and not themselves . That way if something goes wrong there would be only the modder that a plaintiff could go after . Your right they did think about this and they covered their own asses but not the modders . Thats how the world works.

retnav98 wrote: She already got it handed to her in the thread you're pulling this post from...C'mon man...

foster xbl wrote: In all honesty, no one I going to pursue legal action of any kind, over a CTD. This aspect of the debate, is pointless. Tell me you would invest your time/resource to sue me over a CTD (which is the true worest case scenario btw, concerning incompatibility) that was PROVEN (Who says it was my mod that was the incompatible one and not the other one) to be cause by my $5 hose armor.
I mean really, the week before this started the Mortal Kombat X issue popped up, did we see courts filling to sue NR studios or Valve?

sunshinenbrick wrote: If its the kind of bottomless pit economics that one is after, eat your heart out. Not everyone's cup of tea though.

lereddit wrote: Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem

foster xbl wrote: "Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem "

unless.....they were offered the same refund?
As they were allowed to do?

But fair enough, I admit I am not a legal expert.
You guys may be right on this issue.
I'll completely and fully admit I don't know anything about how t would've worked in the
absolute worst case scenario. I just keep thinking though, this would be less than any measurable percent.

sunshinenbrick wrote: We will fight your rights, that what this community should stand for. We are all part of this together, what affects one will affect others.

Right now I'm off to the pub! Wish I could take y'all with me to put the world to rights :)

L8r dudes and dudettes.

lereddit wrote: A refund would settle this, but someone may not accept a refund because he is so pissed that he wants to sue you.

This is some serious grasping for straws from my side btw, something like this is very unlikely to happen. What's more likely is a modder uploading something that doesn't resemble his description at all.

User reviews were disabled on the workshop until you bought the mod, so you couldn't really know whether you bought the real deal or a scam.

User protection was pretty shitty, paired with the 25% means that both sides were screwed over by Valve/Bethesda.
No problem with Patreon as an alternative method of financing modder's efforts, but this deal HAD to be cancelled, since absolutely every side of the community was being exploited.

retnav98 wrote: Foster,


Clearly there was a different attitude toward potential legal issues or Valve and Bethesda's "Million Dollar Lawyers" wouldn't have bothered to divest themselves of the legal responsibility.
Valve chose to treat those who asked for immediate refunds as disruptive...they locked people out from being able to buy for a week...that policy wasn't benefitting modders. It was another move to eliminate loss due to "Buyer's remorse..Mod incompatibility or w/e the purchaser had for breakfast that caused them to reconsider their purchase.

You know Good and well that STEAM is a DAYCARE...and you had to figure that they would Unleash 'BOB and throw fits. You know more than how the REAL WORLD works..you know how that world works...So why did you believe this was ever going to work?


I'll second Sunshine's question from the original thread, " Do you support this Business Model"?

foster xbl wrote: Are you asking if I supported the paid workshop as it was?
If so I tell it to you straight
I do not know, as I never took part in it, I have no idea how it would've worked given the chance. All I have access to is the information that I could find on it from the outside.

Now to be more blunt. Yes I fully supported the concept. Feel free to dig through my post, I openly still support the concept. The percentages as they were....I have to say yes, I personally think they were "close" to fair.

That's not fair at all.

Imagine a big project being sold for 30$ (not unrealistic, look how big Enderal will be), then the creators get 7,50$ per unit.

And they would still have to split the profits within their team.

No....just no.

[Thunde]

deleted Edited April 30, 2015 by Thunde

[lFostelR]

In response to post #24832564. #24833079, #24833104, #24833179, #24833249, #24833549, #24833659, #24833844, #24834234, #24834574, #24834934 are all replies on the same post.

Harbringe wrote:

I get what you're saying Ves... I really do, but you're kidding yourself
You're telling me, if you about my $5 horse armor, and it caused a CTD
No better yet.... Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?
Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case. Better yet say 100 million users suffered the same fate, once any type of class action was taken do you think they guy in charge would come after me.... Or the very deep pockets of the ones who provided you acess to said product.
Come on guys, I get how the world works, you do to. This was never a feasible concern.
I mean do you really think the million dollar lawyers these two companies have at their disposal didnt think of this, if the guys on the forums did?

 

 

Sorry xbi on this one you dont know how the world works . Those million dollar lawyers these two companies have did think about this , thats why they had the modders contractually obligated to be the ones to be providing support for the mods and not themselves . That way if something goes wrong there would be only the modder that a plaintiff could go after . Your right they did think about this and they covered their own asses but not the modders . Thats how the world works.

retnav98 wrote: She already got it handed to her in the thread you're pulling this post from...C'mon man...

foster xbl wrote: In all honesty, no one I going to pursue legal action of any kind, over a CTD. This aspect of the debate, is pointless. Tell me you would invest your time/resource to sue me over a CTD (which is the true worest case scenario btw, concerning incompatibility) that was PROVEN (Who says it was my mod that was the incompatible one and not the other one) to be cause by my $5 hose armor.
I mean really, the week before this started the Mortal Kombat X issue popped up, did we see courts filling to sue NR studios or Valve?

sunshinenbrick wrote: If its the kind of bottomless pit economics that one is after, eat your heart out. Not everyone's cup of tea though.

lereddit wrote: Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem

foster xbl wrote: "Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem "

unless.....they were offered the same refund?
As they were allowed to do?

But fair enough, I admit I am not a legal expert.
You guys may be right on this issue.
I'll completely and fully admit I don't know anything about how t would've worked in the
absolute worst case scenario. I just keep thinking though, this would be less than any measurable percent.

sunshinenbrick wrote: We will fight your rights, that what this community should stand for. We are all part of this together, what affects one will affect others.

Right now I'm off to the pub! Wish I could take y'all with me to put the world to rights :)

L8r dudes and dudettes.

lereddit wrote: A refund would settle this, but someone may not accept a refund because he is so pissed that he wants to sue you.

This is some serious grasping for straws from my side btw, something like this is very unlikely to happen. What's more likely is a modder uploading something that doesn't resemble his description at all.

User reviews were disabled on the workshop until you bought the mod, so you couldn't really know whether you bought the real deal or a scam.

User protection was pretty shitty, paired with the 25% means that both sides were screwed over by Valve/Bethesda.
No problem with Patreon as an alternative method of financing modder's efforts, but this deal HAD to be cancelled, since absolutely every side of the community was being exploited.

retnav98 wrote: Foster,


Clearly there was a different attitude toward potential legal issues or Valve and Bethesda's "Million Dollar Lawyers" wouldn't have bothered to divest themselves of the legal responsibility.
Valve chose to treat those who asked for immediate refunds as disruptive...they locked people out from being able to buy for a week...that policy wasn't benefitting modders. It was another move to eliminate loss due to "Buyer's remorse..Mod incompatibility or w/e the purchaser had for breakfast that caused them to reconsider their purchase.

You know Good and well that STEAM is a DAYCARE...and you had to figure that they would Unleash 'BOB and throw fits. You know more than how the REAL WORLD works..you know how that world works...So why did you believe this was ever going to work?


I'll second Sunshine's question from the original thread, " Do you support this Business Model"?

foster xbl wrote: Are you asking if I supported the paid workshop as it was?
If so I tell it to you straight
I do not know, as I never took part in it, I have no idea how it would've worked given the chance. All I have access to is the information that I could find on it from the outside.

Now to be more blunt. Yes I fully supported the concept. Feel free to dig through my post, I openly still support the concept. The percentages as they were....I have to say yes, I personally think they were "close" to fair.

lereddit wrote: That's not fair at all.

Imagine a big project being sold for 30$ (not unrealistic, look how big Enderal will be), then the creators get 7,50$ per unit.

And they would still have to split the profits within their team.

No....just no.

sorry, I don't agree on this.
yes 25% sounds bad... it does
but what are my costs to make it vs Valve/Bethesda's to make/host it?
and I said "close"

[retnav98]

In response to post #24832564. #24833079, #24833104, #24833179, #24833249, #24833549, #24833659, #24833844, #24834234, #24834574, #24834934, #24835054 are all replies on the same post.

Harbringe wrote:

I get what you're saying Ves... I really do, but you're kidding yourself
You're telling me, if you about my $5 horse armor, and it caused a CTD
No better yet.... Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?
Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case. Better yet say 100 million users suffered the same fate, once any type of class action was taken do you think they guy in charge would come after me.... Or the very deep pockets of the ones who provided you acess to said product.
Come on guys, I get how the world works, you do to. This was never a feasible concern.
I mean do you really think the million dollar lawyers these two companies have at their disposal didnt think of this, if the guys on the forums did?

 

 

Sorry xbi on this one you dont know how the world works . Those million dollar lawyers these two companies have did think about this , thats why they had the modders contractually obligated to be the ones to be providing support for the mods and not themselves . That way if something goes wrong there would be only the modder that a plaintiff could go after . Your right they did think about this and they covered their own asses but not the modders . Thats how the world works.

retnav98 wrote: She already got it handed to her in the thread you're pulling this post from...C'mon man...

foster xbl wrote: In all honesty, no one I going to pursue legal action of any kind, over a CTD. This aspect of the debate, is pointless. Tell me you would invest your time/resource to sue me over a CTD (which is the true worest case scenario btw, concerning incompatibility) that was PROVEN (Who says it was my mod that was the incompatible one and not the other one) to be cause by my $5 hose armor.
I mean really, the week before this started the Mortal Kombat X issue popped up, did we see courts filling to sue NR studios or Valve?

sunshinenbrick wrote: If its the kind of bottomless pit economics that one is after, eat your heart out. Not everyone's cup of tea though.

lereddit wrote: Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem

foster xbl wrote: "Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem "

unless.....they were offered the same refund?
As they were allowed to do?

But fair enough, I admit I am not a legal expert.
You guys may be right on this issue.
I'll completely and fully admit I don't know anything about how t would've worked in the
absolute worst case scenario. I just keep thinking though, this would be less than any measurable percent.

sunshinenbrick wrote: We will fight your rights, that what this community should stand for. We are all part of this together, what affects one will affect others.

Right now I'm off to the pub! Wish I could take y'all with me to put the world to rights :)

L8r dudes and dudettes.

lereddit wrote: A refund would settle this, but someone may not accept a refund because he is so pissed that he wants to sue you.

This is some serious grasping for straws from my side btw, something like this is very unlikely to happen. What's more likely is a modder uploading something that doesn't resemble his description at all.

User reviews were disabled on the workshop until you bought the mod, so you couldn't really know whether you bought the real deal or a scam.

User protection was pretty shitty, paired with the 25% means that both sides were screwed over by Valve/Bethesda.
No problem with Patreon as an alternative method of financing modder's efforts, but this deal HAD to be cancelled, since absolutely every side of the community was being exploited.

retnav98 wrote: Foster,


Clearly there was a different attitude toward potential legal issues or Valve and Bethesda's "Million Dollar Lawyers" wouldn't have bothered to divest themselves of the legal responsibility.
Valve chose to treat those who asked for immediate refunds as disruptive...they locked people out from being able to buy for a week...that policy wasn't benefitting modders. It was another move to eliminate loss due to "Buyer's remorse..Mod incompatibility or w/e the purchaser had for breakfast that caused them to reconsider their purchase.

You know Good and well that STEAM is a DAYCARE...and you had to figure that they would Unleash 'BOB and throw fits. You know more than how the REAL WORLD works..you know how that world works...So why did you believe this was ever going to work?


I'll second Sunshine's question from the original thread, " Do you support this Business Model"?

foster xbl wrote: Are you asking if I supported the paid workshop as it was?
If so I tell it to you straight
I do not know, as I never took part in it, I have no idea how it would've worked given the chance. All I have access to is the information that I could find on it from the outside.

Now to be more blunt. Yes I fully supported the concept. Feel free to dig through my post, I openly still support the concept. The percentages as they were....I have to say yes, I personally think they were "close" to fair.

lereddit wrote: That's not fair at all.

Imagine a big project being sold for 30$ (not unrealistic, look how big Enderal will be), then the creators get 7,50$ per unit.

And they would still have to split the profits within their team.

No....just no.

foster xbl wrote: sorry, I don't agree on this.
yes 25% sounds bad... it does
but what are my costs to make it vs Valve/Bethesda's to make/host it?
and I said "close"

I fully support your right to sell your talents and your products...And I regret not seeing your side of the arguement better four days ago.

Valve and Bethesda say they wanted to expand the means to support Modders. Taken with the STEAM User agreement that essentially says, anything you post here is OUR PROPERTY...means there must have been a different legal agreement for a PAY modder.
Allowing you to sell your talents at 25 cents on the Dollar while being tethered to that mod and all of the potential bugs or incompatibilities doesn't seem to be equitable to ME...but its your choice... If you as the author are thorough in your work and patient with users.and people willing to pay abound...all is rosy.

But let's say the guy buying doesn't have TES5Edit Just bought his copy of Skyrim for 9.99...and is just lost.

You, who spent 9 hrs at work dealing with a distribution fowl up that would've cost you your weeks profit if not resolved, must now contend with the same idiocy you've had to with in the past...except NOW these people DEMAND your attention because they spent 49c. You lay into him like he tried to take your BIRTHDAY.

NOW you got a problem on your hands because you defamed him and he's suing for pain and suffering to the tune of $5,000.00.

[WightMage]

In response to post #24827544. #24828559, #24828899, #24829149, #24829774, #24830084, #24830089, #24830244, #24830269, #24830279, #24830434, #24830474, #24830494, #24830544, #24830624, #24830709, #24830784, #24830789, #24830854, #24830894, #24830919, #24831079, #24831109, #24831114, #24831884, #24831959, #24832009, #24832024, #24832844, #24832949, #24834759, #24834909 are all replies on the same post.

lereddit wrote: Phew, we fought for the good cause and won.

Sad for the modders we have lost in the aftermath but we did it.

We can be proud for not just bending over to Valve and Bethesda.

foster xbl wrote: You "won" and you're "proud"?
Fair enough but try to remember one thing, this "war" you fought was never against Valve or Bethesda, neither of them were harmed in the slightest. Every user which was up in arms, will continue to support them by using their service, and buying their products. Your great "victory" was over the people who have freely and willingly given to this "community".
Enjoy your spoils
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65261

Xavathos wrote: @ foster xbl

It's good to see people with their eyes open. :)

lereddit wrote: Why do you think you should get money for something you do for fun?
I love to write but I don't make any money from it, and never intend to.

What about Trainwiz, Fore, SureAI and all the other modders who opposed this shady practise? Are they all wrong too? Considering that they have created impressive mods they could easily charge money for it, why do you think they don't?

Stop being melodramatic. Modding is a hobby, not a job. If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev. Easy as that.

foster xbl wrote: I don't. Never once said I did.
Now answer me this...
What makes you think you should be able to deny me the opportunity to make money off something I create for profit, with the blessing of the ip owner? No-one ever once said anything about taking away your free mods. This was about the future, and how countless authors were given a chance to profit from their works, moving forward.

lereddit wrote: It's against the greater good of the modding quality, that's why.

Look at the games with paid user content, do you think that's how you want the quality of TES modding to end?

You know what those authors would have done with the chance, you were able to see it on the workshop.

Not even two days passed until we had in-game ads, early access mods, premium versions. It's all downhill from there, I almost thought I was looking at EA, not established members of the community.


SureAI published a nice article about the restrictions of the deal. Big mods wouldn't profit at all. Quantity=/=Quality.

foster xbl wrote: "If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev."

This stupid reasoning, that's been spewed so much in this thread, is literally unforgivable. THAT was the opportunity we were given, to develope content for profit. To become a freelance "game dev"

sunshinenbrick wrote: With no rights.

blackasm wrote: so true foster xbl

foster xbl wrote:
I should not be allowed to profit from my time/efforts.... Because it's " against the greater good"?!
W
T
F?
Please enlighten me on this "greater good" ..... And how my efforts would hinder it.
And also.....wow

lereddit wrote: You want the chance to be a freelancer game dev?

Maybe you should start making good mods then :^)

sunshinenbrick wrote: Say you sell a mod that breaks another person's game. Who are Bethesda going to direct them to? Just be sure to be ready to take on ALL the responsibilities that will come with being a freelance game developer the way it was offered.

foster xbl wrote: "With no rights"

So do you think professional developers
Retain "rights" over the work they produce at
A studio? Think the guy who meshes the steel
Sword gets say so in how his work is used by Bethesda?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Lereddit is right.

Mods are not made in a vacuum. You are benefiting from every other mod, utility and resource that has been given to the community for FREE for years. Some mods that ended up on Valve actually had other people's content in them, and some relied on other mods to even run (such as FORE, SKSE etc.). The authors of these utilities have spent countless hours programming at a skill level much higher than is required from a mod author to give these resources to the community--and they did it with ZERO expectation of anything other than YOU, mod author, PAY-IT-FORWARD. You piggy-backing on the work of all these people for a profit is of course going to spark a backlash.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Not rights over the finished product, rights as an "employee". Your right not to have to take all the blame and responsibility for when anything went wrong.

foster xbl wrote: This breaking other mods argument is also a failed
Perspective. Who's to blame? Well that'd be you the
User who chose to purchase two items without researching their function.
Who's to blame if I buy round pegs for my square hole?

lereddit wrote: Yep, the entitled user is to blame when the mod authors couldn't be bothered to write the incompatibilities on the mod page.

Typical

CaladanAnduril wrote: Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed them

sunshinenbrick wrote: That is why there ALSO must be user protection. Who is to say a mod will not sold as doing something and then doing something else or just not doing it? Even mod makers use other mods. This is also assuming Bethesda tell freelance developers what shape the hole should be in in the first place... which they have notouriously been elusive about. Probably because they are figuring stuff out as they go along, like many pioneering and experimental developers do.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster, I'm afraid you don't understand how the world works in this regard. Once you sign a contract and start charging, legally, everything changes.

With this, you wouldn't be an employee for Bethesda, but a private contractor. And this is much MUCH worse. Any mod you release will have the same consumer protection as anything else--including APPs in Apple's store. You have a whole new set of responsibilities now: such as making sure your mod works in conjunction with as many other possible mods as possible. And just like an APP in the Apple store, if it ganks someone's system, YOU are legally responsible. You are also responsible for troubleshooting for people who have purchased your product, and all the headaches that come from that. You can no longer just say "download at your own risk" as you have been able to with mods you've released for free. Bethesda's hands are washed of this, as you are just a "contractor". You do all the work, deal with all the headaches, and they get most of the money.

freedom613 wrote: @Foster
One of the problems with paid mods was a precedent it setup:

Suppose a company, ElectronicSoft, wants to release day 1 DLC. They know they are going to get flak so instead they get a shell company: Ubigames to release the DLC as a paid "mod".


If they get flak, Electronicsoft can just say "Oh no, we are against Day1 DLC, but we fully support modders getting paid for their work".

As you can see, this problem is a whole lot larger than modders wanting some cash. This sets a bad precedent and for that reason must be stopped in it's tracks.


They can also do this with their DLC, cut out the time and cost running the already poor quality beta testing of DLC and just release it through their shell company as a 3rd Party DLC while reaping all the profits minus Valve's (if they don't decide to cut out the middle man) cut and have none of the accountability.


So while this program is allegedly built on good intentions (let us face it, Valve and Bethesda did this as a cash grab), much like the PATRIOT Act, there is a lot of wiggle room to put in less than favourable business practices.
=========
So yes, paywalling had to go for the greater good. The gaming industry is exploitative, and will wiggle into everything they can to make a profit. Now this does not mean that we are against modder compensation. One of the problems with this whole fiasco was the strawmen setup by both parties. Now I am not talking about donations, anyone here who believes the status quo worked is being naive at best. A system similar to Patreon, which Youtubers and Minecraft modders have been using would be a well recieved solution.

My economics professor gave me a fun quote that I will never forget "Always use the right tool for the job, never use a hammer to put in a screw if there is a screw driver near by". He meant this mostly in marketing by giving the example of using Television to advertise your company in a town of luddites, but the same can be applied here. Paywalling is using a hammer to put in a screw, when there are other tools available.

foster xbl wrote: "Yep, the entitled user is to blame when the mod authors couldn't be bothered to write the incompatibilities on the mod page.

Typical"


If someone is stupid enough to pay their hard earned money
For a product with a clear definition of what it is or does....
Then, yeah, pretty much.
Of course these are the same people who need told coffee is hot.

lereddit wrote: You didn't even bother to read my post properly.

If you are cherrypicking arguments, at least do it less obvious

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster,

That coffee analogy is great. There ARE a lot of stupid consumers out there, but you know what? YOU are STILL responsible for their mess-ups. In the McDonald's analogy you alluded to, McDonald's was held responsible to the tune of I think about a million dollars.

foster xbl wrote: I get what you're saying Ves... I really do, but you're kidding yourself
You're telling me, if you about my $5 horse armor, and it caused a CTD
No better yet.... Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?
Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case. Better yet say 100 million users suffered the same fate, once any type of class action was taken do you think they guy in charge would come after me.... Or the very deep pockets of the ones who provided you acess to said product.
Come on guys, I get how the world works, you do to. This was never a feasible concern.
I mean do you really think the million dollar lawyers these two companies have at their disposal didnt think of this, if the guys on the forums did?

sunshinenbrick wrote: Do you support this model of business?

lereddit wrote: It won't be the lawyers of Bethesda who have to deal with that.
It would be the lawyer of the modder, because now the modder is legally responsible.
Modder tricks users into buying a mod that doesn't do what it promises?
You better bet he's getting sued for that.

"Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case."

Do you even know how lawyers work?
If you pay the lawyer enoguh, he's gonna do wahtever you want, no matter how ridiculous the case is.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster,

I assume you live in the United States? In most states any Cause of Action in which less than $5,000 in damages is declared goes to Small Claims court. Attorneys aren't allowed in Small Claims court (unless they are representing themselves).

What this means is people wouldn't need an attorney, and the process of suing you is much easier. I've seen neighbors sue other neighbors over a mere tree being cut down. People have sued other people over too much noise coming from their homes after a certain time (and won). People can and will sue for as little as $10. But that $10 also will include your time to go to court, bringing evidence, and trying to defend yourself. I'm not saying you WOULD get sued, but if your mod messes up someone's computer (or some other issue), they certainly have the right to sue you.

Eiries wrote:

Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?

So what you're saying is... releasing a broken mod and charging people for it is a nonissue because its too difficult to punish the mod creator?

sunshinenbrick wrote: That whole idea is messed up as it will end with people just not buying Bethesda games to begin with. Not worth the risk.

macintroll wrote: When i hear all of you with all kind of mod problems you have... i wonder how you are still able to launch your game with any CTD :D :D

foster xbl wrote: "So what you're saying is... releasing a broken mod and charging people for it is a nonissue because its too difficult to punish the mod creator? "

yes that's exactly what I'm saying..... come on...did that in any way sound like what I said?

Sir, people can sue and be sued for anything in the United States, and if a lawyer or firm thinks they can make money from a claim (regardless of how frivilous it appears) they will go after it.

Your assertion that no lawfirm would go to the trouble on the basis of laziness is optimistic at best, and hugely, hugely ignorant to how lawsuits actually work.

Case in point, the fact is law firms will be paid regardless of whether their claimant wins a case. They will still charge the claimant court fees and for their own time- it is in fact in their best interest to go after such lawsuits because if they can't collect from the defendent, they will shake down the person they were hired by.

Furthermore, Valve is not an unknown name- its damn near house hold in this industry. Do you really think that they will ignore a claim when they see the words "Valve," and "Lawsuit?" Think again.

[acidzebra]

In response to post #24827544. #24828559, #24828899, #24829149, #24829774, #24830084, #24830089, #24830244, #24830269, #24830279, #24830434, #24830474, #24830494, #24830544, #24830624, #24830709, #24830784, #24830789, #24830854, #24830894, #24830919, #24831079, #24831109, #24831114, #24831884, #24831959, #24832009, #24832024, #24832844, #24832949, #24834759, #24834909, #24835839 are all replies on the same post.

lereddit wrote: Phew, we fought for the good cause and won.

Sad for the modders we have lost in the aftermath but we did it.

We can be proud for not just bending over to Valve and Bethesda.

foster xbl wrote: You "won" and you're "proud"?
Fair enough but try to remember one thing, this "war" you fought was never against Valve or Bethesda, neither of them were harmed in the slightest. Every user which was up in arms, will continue to support them by using their service, and buying their products. Your great "victory" was over the people who have freely and willingly given to this "community".
Enjoy your spoils
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65261

Xavathos wrote: @ foster xbl

It's good to see people with their eyes open. :)

lereddit wrote: Why do you think you should get money for something you do for fun?
I love to write but I don't make any money from it, and never intend to.

What about Trainwiz, Fore, SureAI and all the other modders who opposed this shady practise? Are they all wrong too? Considering that they have created impressive mods they could easily charge money for it, why do you think they don't?

Stop being melodramatic. Modding is a hobby, not a job. If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev. Easy as that.

foster xbl wrote: I don't. Never once said I did.
Now answer me this...
What makes you think you should be able to deny me the opportunity to make money off something I create for profit, with the blessing of the ip owner? No-one ever once said anything about taking away your free mods. This was about the future, and how countless authors were given a chance to profit from their works, moving forward.

lereddit wrote: It's against the greater good of the modding quality, that's why.

Look at the games with paid user content, do you think that's how you want the quality of TES modding to end?

You know what those authors would have done with the chance, you were able to see it on the workshop.

Not even two days passed until we had in-game ads, early access mods, premium versions. It's all downhill from there, I almost thought I was looking at EA, not established members of the community.


SureAI published a nice article about the restrictions of the deal. Big mods wouldn't profit at all. Quantity=/=Quality.

foster xbl wrote: "If you want to earn money for modding, become a game dev."

This stupid reasoning, that's been spewed so much in this thread, is literally unforgivable. THAT was the opportunity we were given, to develope content for profit. To become a freelance "game dev"

sunshinenbrick wrote: With no rights.

blackasm wrote: so true foster xbl

foster xbl wrote:
I should not be allowed to profit from my time/efforts.... Because it's " against the greater good"?!
W
T
F?
Please enlighten me on this "greater good" ..... And how my efforts would hinder it.
And also.....wow

lereddit wrote: You want the chance to be a freelancer game dev?

Maybe you should start making good mods then :^)

sunshinenbrick wrote: Say you sell a mod that breaks another person's game. Who are Bethesda going to direct them to? Just be sure to be ready to take on ALL the responsibilities that will come with being a freelance game developer the way it was offered.

foster xbl wrote: "With no rights"

So do you think professional developers
Retain "rights" over the work they produce at
A studio? Think the guy who meshes the steel
Sword gets say so in how his work is used by Bethesda?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Lereddit is right.

Mods are not made in a vacuum. You are benefiting from every other mod, utility and resource that has been given to the community for FREE for years. Some mods that ended up on Valve actually had other people's content in them, and some relied on other mods to even run (such as FORE, SKSE etc.). The authors of these utilities have spent countless hours programming at a skill level much higher than is required from a mod author to give these resources to the community--and they did it with ZERO expectation of anything other than YOU, mod author, PAY-IT-FORWARD. You piggy-backing on the work of all these people for a profit is of course going to spark a backlash.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Not rights over the finished product, rights as an "employee". Your right not to have to take all the blame and responsibility for when anything went wrong.

foster xbl wrote: This breaking other mods argument is also a failed
Perspective. Who's to blame? Well that'd be you the
User who chose to purchase two items without researching their function.
Who's to blame if I buy round pegs for my square hole?

lereddit wrote: Yep, the entitled user is to blame when the mod authors couldn't be bothered to write the incompatibilities on the mod page.

Typical

CaladanAnduril wrote: Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed them

sunshinenbrick wrote: That is why there ALSO must be user protection. Who is to say a mod will not sold as doing something and then doing something else or just not doing it? Even mod makers use other mods. This is also assuming Bethesda tell freelance developers what shape the hole should be in in the first place... which they have notouriously been elusive about. Probably because they are figuring stuff out as they go along, like many pioneering and experimental developers do.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster, I'm afraid you don't understand how the world works in this regard. Once you sign a contract and start charging, legally, everything changes.

With this, you wouldn't be an employee for Bethesda, but a private contractor. And this is much MUCH worse. Any mod you release will have the same consumer protection as anything else--including APPs in Apple's store. You have a whole new set of responsibilities now: such as making sure your mod works in conjunction with as many other possible mods as possible. And just like an APP in the Apple store, if it ganks someone's system, YOU are legally responsible. You are also responsible for troubleshooting for people who have purchased your product, and all the headaches that come from that. You can no longer just say "download at your own risk" as you have been able to with mods you've released for free. Bethesda's hands are washed of this, as you are just a "contractor". You do all the work, deal with all the headaches, and they get most of the money.

freedom613 wrote: @Foster
One of the problems with paid mods was a precedent it setup:

Suppose a company, ElectronicSoft, wants to release day 1 DLC. They know they are going to get flak so instead they get a shell company: Ubigames to release the DLC as a paid "mod".


If they get flak, Electronicsoft can just say "Oh no, we are against Day1 DLC, but we fully support modders getting paid for their work".

As you can see, this problem is a whole lot larger than modders wanting some cash. This sets a bad precedent and for that reason must be stopped in it's tracks.


They can also do this with their DLC, cut out the time and cost running the already poor quality beta testing of DLC and just release it through their shell company as a 3rd Party DLC while reaping all the profits minus Valve's (if they don't decide to cut out the middle man) cut and have none of the accountability.


So while this program is allegedly built on good intentions (let us face it, Valve and Bethesda did this as a cash grab), much like the PATRIOT Act, there is a lot of wiggle room to put in less than favourable business practices.
=========
So yes, paywalling had to go for the greater good. The gaming industry is exploitative, and will wiggle into everything they can to make a profit. Now this does not mean that we are against modder compensation. One of the problems with this whole fiasco was the strawmen setup by both parties. Now I am not talking about donations, anyone here who believes the status quo worked is being naive at best. A system similar to Patreon, which Youtubers and Minecraft modders have been using would be a well recieved solution.

My economics professor gave me a fun quote that I will never forget "Always use the right tool for the job, never use a hammer to put in a screw if there is a screw driver near by". He meant this mostly in marketing by giving the example of using Television to advertise your company in a town of luddites, but the same can be applied here. Paywalling is using a hammer to put in a screw, when there are other tools available.

foster xbl wrote: "Yep, the entitled user is to blame when the mod authors couldn't be bothered to write the incompatibilities on the mod page.

Typical"


If someone is stupid enough to pay their hard earned money
For a product with a clear definition of what it is or does....
Then, yeah, pretty much.
Of course these are the same people who need told coffee is hot.

lereddit wrote: You didn't even bother to read my post properly.

If you are cherrypicking arguments, at least do it less obvious

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster,

That coffee analogy is great. There ARE a lot of stupid consumers out there, but you know what? YOU are STILL responsible for their mess-ups. In the McDonald's analogy you alluded to, McDonald's was held responsible to the tune of I think about a million dollars.

foster xbl wrote: I get what you're saying Ves... I really do, but you're kidding yourself
You're telling me, if you about my $5 horse armor, and it caused a CTD
No better yet.... Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?
Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case. Better yet say 100 million users suffered the same fate, once any type of class action was taken do you think they guy in charge would come after me.... Or the very deep pockets of the ones who provided you acess to said product.
Come on guys, I get how the world works, you do to. This was never a feasible concern.
I mean do you really think the million dollar lawyers these two companies have at their disposal didnt think of this, if the guys on the forums did?

sunshinenbrick wrote: Do you support this model of business?

lereddit wrote: It won't be the lawyers of Bethesda who have to deal with that.
It would be the lawyer of the modder, because now the modder is legally responsible.
Modder tricks users into buying a mod that doesn't do what it promises?
You better bet he's getting sued for that.

"Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case."

Do you even know how lawyers work?
If you pay the lawyer enoguh, he's gonna do wahtever you want, no matter how ridiculous the case is.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Foster,

I assume you live in the United States? In most states any Cause of Action in which less than $5,000 in damages is declared goes to Small Claims court. Attorneys aren't allowed in Small Claims court (unless they are representing themselves).

What this means is people wouldn't need an attorney, and the process of suing you is much easier. I've seen neighbors sue other neighbors over a mere tree being cut down. People have sued other people over too much noise coming from their homes after a certain time (and won). People can and will sue for as little as $10. But that $10 also will include your time to go to court, bringing evidence, and trying to defend yourself. I'm not saying you WOULD get sued, but if your mod messes up someone's computer (or some other issue), they certainly have the right to sue you.

Eiries wrote:

Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?

So what you're saying is... releasing a broken mod and charging people for it is a nonissue because its too difficult to punish the mod creator?

sunshinenbrick wrote: That whole idea is messed up as it will end with people just not buying Bethesda games to begin with. Not worth the risk.

macintroll wrote: When i hear all of you with all kind of mod problems you have... i wonder how you are still able to launch your game with any CTD :D :D

foster xbl wrote: "So what you're saying is... releasing a broken mod and charging people for it is a nonissue because its too difficult to punish the mod creator? "

yes that's exactly what I'm saying..... come on...did that in any way sound like what I said?

WightMage wrote: Sir, people can sue and be sued for anything in the United States, and if a lawyer or firm thinks they can make money from a claim (regardless of how frivilous it appears) they will go after it.

Your assertion that no lawfirm would go to the trouble on the basis of laziness is optimistic at best, and hugely, hugely ignorant to how lawsuits actually work.

Case in point, the fact is law firms will be paid regardless of whether their claimant wins a case. They will still charge the claimant court fees and for their own time- it is in fact in their best interest to go after such lawsuits because if they can't collect from the defendent, they will shake down the person they were hired by.

Furthermore, Valve is not an unknown name- its damn near house hold in this industry. Do you really think that they will ignore a claim when they see the words "Valve," and "Lawsuit?" Think again.

All this "SUED FOR YOUR MOD" talk is hilarious when you realise there have been for-pay mod communities for other products for a good long while yet "mod author sued" turns up absolutely zero relevant results. You'd think there would have been some kind of fuss over that.