Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[lereddit]

In response to post #24837054. #24837184 is also a reply to the same post.

likelolwhat wrote: For those who are saying that people who want all free mods forever are "leechers" and feel entitled to free stuff, let me turn that around for a moment.

Aren't modders who've been making mods for free for years, as a hobby, as experience, whatever, and now suddenly expecting, no, DEMANDING they be paid for what was previously free -- aren't they leechers as well?

Riprock wrote: Certainly not. They at least produced something. However. While I do not consider it leeching for them to do that, I do find it presumptive of them to do that. But in any case, a small percentage of authors feel that way. I see many more that want to to continue to contribute because they want to. Almost everyone wants this to be "us versus them" it seems but like most things in life, that's too simplistic and doesn't really describe what's happening.

No, not really. But it's really questionable that after 13 years of a stable and big TES modding community suddenly lots of people start to demand money once the topic is brought up.

It's not "us" who have shown our true colours, it's those that ran to the workshop who did, and those who continue crying like babies now that the majority got what we wanted. Edited April 30, 2015 by lereddit

[Vesuvius1745]

In response to post #24837054. #24837184, #24837229 are all replies on the same post.

likelolwhat wrote: For those who are saying that people who want all free mods forever are "leechers" and feel entitled to free stuff, let me turn that around for a moment.

Aren't modders who've been making mods for free for years, as a hobby, as experience, whatever, and now suddenly expecting, no, DEMANDING they be paid for what was previously free -- aren't they leechers as well?

Riprock wrote: Certainly not. They at least produced something. However. While I do not consider it leeching for them to do that, I do find it presumptive of them to do that. But in any case, a small percentage of authors feel that way. I see many more that want to to continue to contribute because they want to. Almost everyone wants this to be "us versus them" it seems but like most things in life, that's too simplistic and doesn't really describe what's happening.

lereddit wrote: No, not really. But it's really questionable that after 13 years of a stable and big TES modding community suddenly lots of people start to demand money once the topic is brought up.

It's not "us" who have shown our true colours, it's those that ran to the workshop who did, and those who continue crying like babies now that the majority got what we wanted.

All mod authors, along with the enjoyment of their hobby, have benefited from the body of mods and utilities which have been given to the community for free. They didn't have to contribute any mods, and it is appreciated that they did, but it's disingenuous to suggest they haven't benefited from the same community they are now claiming is leeching off of them. If some talented authors of some very popular and useful mods, utilities and resources--authors who have said they never wanted any profit whatsoever--were to pull their stuff from the community, we'd quickly see who was "leeching" off of who. Edited April 30, 2015 by Vesuvius1745

[popopipo]

Aren't you tired of arguing ? 1946+ posts of trolling...

 

* The modding community developped because it was free.

 

* The majority (and not only the majority of leechers) don't want modding to turn in a cheap-DLC (not always sold that cheap) workshop without any quality assurance.

 

* Being rude is wrong. The paying mod system is a wrong system, but there is no reason to be insulting towards the modders who wanted to be part of a wrong system.

 

* We should all be grateful to all the modders who left freely the result of their work for all to share.

 

* Last but not least, nobody will read the 2000 posts of flaming and complaining. Maybe it's time to move on to something more useful.

 

Excuse my english, I'm french and arrogant.

 

Peace to all.

Edited April 30, 2015 by popopipo

[np11]

In response to post #24837054. #24837184, #24837229, #24837619 are all replies on the same post.

likelolwhat wrote: For those who are saying that people who want all free mods forever are "leechers" and feel entitled to free stuff, let me turn that around for a moment.

Aren't modders who've been making mods for free for years, as a hobby, as experience, whatever, and now suddenly expecting, no, DEMANDING they be paid for what was previously free -- aren't they leechers as well?

Riprock wrote: Certainly not. They at least produced something. However. While I do not consider it leeching for them to do that, I do find it presumptive of them to do that. But in any case, a small percentage of authors feel that way. I see many more that want to to continue to contribute because they want to. Almost everyone wants this to be "us versus them" it seems but like most things in life, that's too simplistic and doesn't really describe what's happening.

lereddit wrote: No, not really. But it's really questionable that after 13 years of a stable and big TES modding community suddenly lots of people start to demand money once the topic is brought up.

It's not "us" who have shown our true colours, it's those that ran to the workshop who did, and those who continue crying like babies now that the majority got what we wanted.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: All mod authors, along with the enjoyment of their hobby, have benefited from the body of mods and utilities which have been given to the community for free. They didn't have to contribute any mods, and it is appreciated that they did, but it's disingenuous to suggest they haven't benefited from the same community they are now claiming is leeching off of them. If some talented authors of some very popular and useful mods, utilities and resources--authors who have said they never wanted any profit whatsoever--were to pull their stuff from the community, we'd quickly see who was "leeching" off of who.

Obviously that's not true for the majority of modders.

All I'll say about that is: To those who want to treat this as a business, we'll treat it as a business, too. Unfortunately for them, customers, even potential ones, are entitled to a great many things, one of which is not throwing tantrums, slandering and pissing them off. PR, PR and damage control.

[acidzebra]

For those who are saying that people who want all free mods forever are "leechers" and feel entitled to free stuff, let me turn that around for a moment.

 

Aren't modders who've been making mods for free for years, as a hobby, as experience, whatever, and now suddenly expecting, no, DEMANDING they be paid for what was previously free -- aren't they leechers as well?

 

Actually, that's not what was said. If all you do at the nexus is download and bolt, you're a leech in my book. I don't even particularly mind people like that, until they go around telling content creators what they can and can't do with their work, and crowing about how "we won" when all I see is loss - loss of trust, loss of good people and unique mods, there is no "win" here. The valve for-pay system will be back with FO4 and/or TES6, you can bet on it. Sleeker, less hamfisted and less poorly executed than this fiasco, but there's a huge marketplace for user-generated content. It won't be let go of, so there's no "win" there either.

 

As far as I know nobody was demanding you pay for their content. Unless your view is that somehow every vendor/creator/etc is "demanding" you pay them for their product. Or you think that somehow you're entitled to free stuff forever because someone else will bear the cost - be it monetary, time investment, or expertise. There is a cost attached to these things, invisible as it may be.

 

Do people even know the TOS of Bethesda? Since forever, you are not allowed to ask for any monetary compensation for whatever you create with the CK, period. Do you think if that hadn't been there for-pay mods wouldn't have risen much earlier? It's been talked about since forever. The nexus has toed this line as closely as they dared, they allow donations, but authors are not allowed to ask for donations. The button has been on mod pages that choose to have it for a good while now. Several prominent modders - people whose downloads number in the hundreds of thousands - have stated that only a few donations were ever made and I have no reason to doubt them. I do have to say the button was in an awkward place somewhat, but still, very few donations overall.

 

NOW, in the aftermath of this miserable episode, it has moved to a more prominent place, but I think the community - the actual community, not a bunch of hit-and-run freeloaders - has had its wake-up call. I hope it lasts.

 

For the record, I am not personally interested in selling mods, the support headache would be worth more than any monetary compensation. But I do think there's room for both paid and free mods, and I do think content creators have the right to determine how their product is shared. And consumers have the right to partake, or not.

[retnav98]

In response to post #24832564. #24833079, #24833104, #24833179, #24833249, #24833549, #24833659, #24833844, #24834234, #24834574, #24834934, #24835054, #24835429, #24836069, #24836109, #24836554, #24837014, #24837104 are all replies on the same post.

Harbringe wrote:

I get what you're saying Ves... I really do, but you're kidding yourself
You're telling me, if you about my $5 horse armor, and it caused a CTD
No better yet.... Say it crashed skyrim to literally delete itself from you hdd, that you or anyone else would go to the time/effort/expense of trying to seek legal action.... Really?
Good luck finding a lawyer willing to invest in taking that case. Better yet say 100 million users suffered the same fate, once any type of class action was taken do you think they guy in charge would come after me.... Or the very deep pockets of the ones who provided you acess to said product.
Come on guys, I get how the world works, you do to. This was never a feasible concern.
I mean do you really think the million dollar lawyers these two companies have at their disposal didnt think of this, if the guys on the forums did?

 

 

Sorry xbi on this one you dont know how the world works . Those million dollar lawyers these two companies have did think about this , thats why they had the modders contractually obligated to be the ones to be providing support for the mods and not themselves . That way if something goes wrong there would be only the modder that a plaintiff could go after . Your right they did think about this and they covered their own asses but not the modders . Thats how the world works.

retnav98 wrote: She already got it handed to her in the thread you're pulling this post from...C'mon man...

foster xbl wrote: In all honesty, no one I going to pursue legal action of any kind, over a CTD. This aspect of the debate, is pointless. Tell me you would invest your time/resource to sue me over a CTD (which is the true worest case scenario btw, concerning incompatibility) that was PROVEN (Who says it was my mod that was the incompatible one and not the other one) to be cause by my $5 hose armor.
I mean really, the week before this started the Mortal Kombat X issue popped up, did we see courts filling to sue NR studios or Valve?

sunshinenbrick wrote: If its the kind of bottomless pit economics that one is after, eat your heart out. Not everyone's cup of tea though.

lereddit wrote: Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem

foster xbl wrote: "Not over a CTD, over false advertising. You as an author would be legally obliged to find out all incompatibilities, if you fail to do so and thereby fail to deliever the product I ordered I have every right to sue you.

Of course I wouldn't sue over stuff like this, I'd demand a refund immediately. Someone with more money could sue you. And then you're having a serious problem "

unless.....they were offered the same refund?
As they were allowed to do?

But fair enough, I admit I am not a legal expert.
You guys may be right on this issue.
I'll completely and fully admit I don't know anything about how t would've worked in the
absolute worst case scenario. I just keep thinking though, this would be less than any measurable percent.

sunshinenbrick wrote: We will fight your rights, that what this community should stand for. We are all part of this together, what affects one will affect others.

Right now I'm off to the pub! Wish I could take y'all with me to put the world to rights :)

L8r dudes and dudettes.

lereddit wrote: A refund would settle this, but someone may not accept a refund because he is so pissed that he wants to sue you.

This is some serious grasping for straws from my side btw, something like this is very unlikely to happen. What's more likely is a modder uploading something that doesn't resemble his description at all.

User reviews were disabled on the workshop until you bought the mod, so you couldn't really know whether you bought the real deal or a scam.

User protection was pretty shitty, paired with the 25% means that both sides were screwed over by Valve/Bethesda.
No problem with Patreon as an alternative method of financing modder's efforts, but this deal HAD to be cancelled, since absolutely every side of the community was being exploited.

retnav98 wrote: Foster,


Clearly there was a different attitude toward potential legal issues or Valve and Bethesda's "Million Dollar Lawyers" wouldn't have bothered to divest themselves of the legal responsibility.
Valve chose to treat those who asked for immediate refunds as disruptive...they locked people out from being able to buy for a week...that policy wasn't benefitting modders. It was another move to eliminate loss due to "Buyer's remorse..Mod incompatibility or w/e the purchaser had for breakfast that caused them to reconsider their purchase.

You know Good and well that STEAM is a DAYCARE...and you had to figure that they would Unleash 'BOB and throw fits. You know more than how the REAL WORLD works..you know how that world works...So why did you believe this was ever going to work?


I'll second Sunshine's question from the original thread, " Do you support this Business Model"?

foster xbl wrote: Are you asking if I supported the paid workshop as it was?
If so I tell it to you straight
I do not know, as I never took part in it, I have no idea how it would've worked given the chance. All I have access to is the information that I could find on it from the outside.

Now to be more blunt. Yes I fully supported the concept. Feel free to dig through my post, I openly still support the concept. The percentages as they were....I have to say yes, I personally think they were "close" to fair.

lereddit wrote: That's not fair at all.

Imagine a big project being sold for 30$ (not unrealistic, look how big Enderal will be), then the creators get 7,50$ per unit.

And they would still have to split the profits within their team.

No....just no.

foster xbl wrote: sorry, I don't agree on this.
yes 25% sounds bad... it does
but what are my costs to make it vs Valve/Bethesda's to make/host it?
and I said "close"

retnav98 wrote: I fully support your right to sell your talents and your products...And I regret not seeing your side of the arguement better four days ago.

Valve and Bethesda say they wanted to expand the means to support Modders. Taken with the STEAM User agreement that essentially says, anything you post here is OUR PROPERTY...means there must have been a different legal agreement for a PAY modder.
Allowing you to sell your talents at 25 cents on the Dollar while being tethered to that mod and all of the potential bugs or incompatibilities doesn't seem to be equitable to ME...but its your choice... If you as the author are thorough in your work and patient with users.and people willing to pay abound...all is rosy.

But let's say the guy buying doesn't have TES5Edit Just bought his copy of Skyrim for 9.99...and is just lost.

You, who spent 9 hrs at work dealing with a distribution fowl up that would've cost you your weeks profit if not resolved, must now contend with the same idiocy you've had to with in the past...except NOW these people DEMAND your attention because they spent 49c. You lay into him like he tried to take your BIRTHDAY.

NOW you got a problem on your hands because you defamed him and he's suing for pain and suffering to the tune of $5,000.00.

Wolvenlight wrote: Perhaps it might behoove people to look into the percentage's of writers vs publishers, or singers vs labels, or farmer's vs grocers before we automatically discredit the 25, 35, 40 split as unfair... Not all of these examples apply in exact terms, but it would give us a better understanding as to how money is split among all parties.

I'd love it if mod author's got more, and personally I think Bethesda and Valve could have been a little more generous, but I can see why it was split the way it was.

lereddit wrote: @foster xbl

Wait, you think it's okay that a big project can't get any profit due to this deal while any retard who knows how to port swords from DOTA2 can grab their 25%?

You must have no idea what you are talking about.

retnav98 wrote: You know lerredit,

You're a 3 inch wart infested D1CK! Just kidding.


Actually...I'm not.

There's NO reason to degrade people. The fact that you're separated by firewalls makes you all the more pathetic.

retnav98 wrote: @Wolvenlight

I get your point to a degree..

I would question the level of liability a publisher (or any of your other examples) shares...and the percentage of cost they absorb...

I honestly cannot see that Valve maintained any more cost than they did with mods that were free...now if any of your examples involved the option of FREE books, music, food in direct competition with PAID, you might have a more cogent point.

lereddit wrote: @retnav98

Yeah no, he admitted as much as not having an idea about the details.

And the one who starts calling names is the dick here, my friend

We're not friends..

I disagree with HER...but Her most consistent and unshakable point is one I have come to agree with...it's her choice.

I wasn't calling names..I was simply identifying ..like in Biology...Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family...

Just calling it the way I see it.

[UberSmaug]

In response to post #24829274. #24829504, #24829949, #24830164, #24830354, #24830424, #24830604, #24830714, #24830804, #24830944, #24831024, #24831029, #24831074, #24831139, #24831284, #24831344, #24831554, #24831694, #24831724, #24831809, #24832199, #24832334, #24832364, #24833474, #24833569, #24836294, #24836444 are all replies on the same post.

acidzebra wrote:

 

Exactly. I think most of the people that signed the petition against this entire idea were not against the idea of modders being rewarded for their work, but rather the way Valve and Bethesda implemented the whole thing. And when I say implemented, I mean hammered home.

The 30% cut Valve got out of it is default, I mean, Valve gets 30% of -everything- that sells on Steam, so this would be no exception in that respect. The other 70% however, was up to the developer to decide, and I think Bethesda was being extremely greedy taking 45% of it for themselves, just for having made the game. Especially knowing how much they've made from selling Skyrim on various platforms already, and the fact that even if mods are made through their toolkit, using their assets and resources, it is still something created by the person that creates it, not Bethesda, and therefor the creator should be rewarded the most for their originality, persistence and honest hard work.

If anything, -that- is what bothered me the most about this entire ordeal. It was never fair, for anyone, even the modders. I guess that's why only -fifteen- of the modders now so verbally (or otherwise) assaulted signed up for it to begin with? :smile:

 

 

The "community" people like to go on about consists of three basic groups: content creators, contributors (those who do not mod directly but help out in other ways or in general just interact with the rest of the community in a constructive way), and lastly, the content consumers. Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

 

I've read their comments on this stuff and looked at their profiles; for the most part they could be carbon copies. Zero/very few posts (little interaction with other members), zero mods, a handful of endorsements at most. In many other communities these people are known as leeches. They are the bulk of the nexus visitors. These were the bulk of the people who were so incredibly up in arms. Note: bulk, not all.

 

Not because "omg the creators get so little from Valve". Do you think people like that care about whether others get a deal that may or may not be unfair considering standard industry practices? It's a nice thought but it's BS, especially when I've read so many comments to mod authors "we won't miss you, for you ten others", "mods have always been free and should always be free". Coming from people who haven't contributed a damn thing, who in general are too lazy to even click a button to say they liked it or leave a comment.

 

"Lereddit" is a perfect example. Just another leech.

CaladanAnduril wrote: 1000 + Bravo

Unfortunate people like you are in minority, GOD forgive if you post such comment as a modder, you will be instantly accused to be "spoiled brat, immature, selfish and money grabber".

Sadly, this "bulk" have done more damage than you could imagine... but the results will show up in the near future.

lereddit wrote: Well, actually the quality of modding is my biggest concern.
It has been great so far, now you want to sell out on a platform with abusive business practise, fine.

If you wanna go and be a cash grabber, make some shitty swords for DOTA2 and sell them for a buck each.

The paid mods have all been terrible in quality so far (little hint: because I bought some of them, what a leech I am, right?)

Funny that you crybabies start coming out of the woodwork once you don't get your way.

Oh, and I don't post here often because there are other TES communities that I frequent. The nexus is not the only place to discuss mods on (and I have endorsed more than jus a handful mods, get your facts straight)

blackasm wrote: no doubt they got to me for a while, and the damage I can say was no doubt done. I think of the modders that didn't quit altogether; they are all really considering how much is their time worth right now, and I can say having gone through that experience personally, before all of this hoopla, that question leads you to ultimately give up modding or relegate it to the back burner. It is just a sad fact of life and hobbies. To me the real loss was the potential of seeing great modders returning with bolder content as well as people like me who have the talent but not the time to add some cool things and fulfill some long asked requests (better faction quest rewards, thane rewards) and of course the artists in general are a real loser here, because this could have easily set a new precedence that would allow for artists to engage in a new free market. I just think of all those starving kids on deviantart lol. Either way the Leechers won this day, not the authors, not the contributers and never the artists.

greggorypeccary wrote: The problem is the Nexus makes most of their money off these "Leeches" downloading free mods that other people make. There are more leeches than it seems. I'm sure they're not stupid and the Nexus realize how close the bullet they just dodged came to their wallet. They'll try to figure a way to get the community to cough up some cash. I'd be amazed if they were to share some of the profit they already get.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You have zero clue who has contributed to what, or in what ways they have contributed. Looking at the profile of someone who posted something you don't like tells you exactly nothing. And more than that: it's irrelevant. People who only download mods have a right to have an opinion on the future of the modding community. You have no right to second guess their motivations for their stance. Many people downloading mods today are tomorrow's contributors.

And I'll go a step further and say for most people against this, it's NOT about "free mods". You know how quickly the mods on the Valve, after going for-pay, ended up on Torrent sites? I do believe less than 2 minutes. All those "greedy people who only want free mods" wouldn't care where they are at, because they know they would get them anyway.

Eiries wrote:

Some of the most vehement anti-pay posters don't care about the good fight, they don't care about community, they don't care about content creators, they don't care about profit cuts, they just care about a download site where they can quickly grab whatever they want for free and bolt.

Keyword "some." Pretty much everything you wrote after that was invalidated by that one word. And I fail to see what your entire statement has to do with anything at all, except that you made a casual observation of some posters' profiles and felt the need to announce it.

CaladanAnduril wrote: lereddit, vesuvius1745...

Well the trolls are gathering again, don't feed them

lereddit wrote: Good to know that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a troll.

Delusional, but who am I to judge, eh mate?

Marstonn wrote: lereddit you're a troll, i can comprove that with your blood sample.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Lereddit,

Rule #1 for discussing something on the internet: if someone makes a point that you can't refute or argue against, call them a "troll" or other names.

lereddit wrote: Whatever you say my friend.

I want to be a frost troll though, I#ve never liked regular trolls

Marstonn wrote: I'm a flamer, i won.

CaladanAnduril wrote: You just proven my point... if a calm and rational but opposite point of view is dropping on you, your only reaction is to curse and offend your opponent....
Delusional... I have dealt with your kind for many years and I find your kind pathetic.
That's all you could?
Injurious comments towards those who have a different point of view?

Pathetic... btw, I watched this discussion from the beginning, refraining myself from comments, but I have noticed that same names keep showing again and again with vitriolant behaviour towards those who don't agree with you... your name is one

Pitiful mind could write only pitifull comments... you "won" keep your victory flag close, you will need it in the near future

macintroll wrote: "lereddit " part of the army ? :D
Of course you did take this pseudo by "pure hazard" ... ^^

Vesuvius1745 wrote: CaladanAnduril is lecturing people on name calling, while calling them names. How droll.

Marstonn wrote: Caladan

I was just kidding man, i'm a pro paid mods, i bought 2 of them to support, i dreamed amazing dozens of falksaars coming, armors 4k texture perfect made been launched for few steam cards. But it seems the people didn't think this way.

The mods was removed, i noticed the anti paid just don't want paid mods, they will argue 1000 reasons, but is simple, they don't want pay for mod and the are afraid to lose "their" mods.

They already removed the paid mods, don't matter why, who, when, how discussions. I hope they bring paid mods back, with more QA, but if they relaunch tomorow, i'll support (buying) the mods again.

lereddit wrote: @macintroll

Of course not. Chose this name as a parody of reddit's idiocy and went with it because I couldn't think of something better.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Maybe my English is not so good like yours, but I don't make statements regarding how the others should act.

" People who only download mods have a right to have an opinion on the future of the modding community"... since then?
Since then you have the RIGHT to decide what I must do?
You are just a pathetic troll, who was so disgusting this days against those who feeded you with tons of mods for FREE so many years.
And now you have RIGHTS? Maybe in your LaLa Land ...

You and the other hatred trolls have trashed the very notion of FREE modding and very soon you will cash in the reward... but it will be a bittter one.

Sorry if my English is offending your suave ears...

lereddit wrote: Am I really being lectured about not having rights because I never created a mod?

I made a few rather bad ones for private use. Never released one. I know that modding is hard. So what?

Also, resorting to calling me and the other people trolls just shows that you are running out of arguments. Please stop, it's painful to watch

CaladanAnduril wrote: Not for me... for me IS fun fun to watch your next predictable step, trying to patronize your "opponent"

And I mopping with your kind( not particularly with you) because your kind denise MY kind to have an opinion based on OUR hard work over the time.
You are wining about quality...helo!!! wake up child, ANY free mod is provided AS IS.
No matter most of the mod authors provide updates and fixes WHEN they could, your kind is still "unhappy" not to be provided WHEN you want, in your LaLa Land you have RIGHTS... your so called rights are in fact DEMANDS, spoken on an outrageous tone.
And your KIND proved this days how low could reach human nature

And don't bother to look after my profile, rofl, I have long time ago moved my mods from Nexus.

lereddit wrote: Yeah, whatever bro. No use arguing with lunatics on the internet

Gimme some of that weed you're smoking, I wanna go to LaLa land too.
Holy s#*!, at least try to speak in coherent sentences. Or use google translator

Vesuvius1745 wrote: First of all, you have no idea what I have or haven't contributed. If you've read some of my other posts, you might get an idea. But you know what? That's irrelevant.

I would never want payment for a mod I created, and this is the main reason: because, as you have said, I HAVE enjoyed all the free content that has been provided to the community for years. And you know what? So have YOU. Contributing to the community is called paying-it-forward, and every mod out there (and I don't care how individual you think your specific snowflake is), was a GROUP EFFORT--the culmination of everything and everyone who has come before you to make this possible.

Programmers who have a lot more skill than is required for a game mod have donated their efforts to bring some outstanding utilities and resources to the community (ENB, SKSE, FORE, Wyre Bash, and on and on and on). Many mods would not even function without these free resources, or would be mediocre. They gave these things to the community with no expectation of anything other than to encourage creativity, and more mods being shared with everybody. The same goes for every other mod author who has released a free mod (they have enjoyed free mods from the same community, and they are giving something back). Mod authors learn how to create mods by dissecting other mods, they borrow resources, they piggy-back on the work of others. And this is FINE. It's the nature of an "open source" community. But when you want to piggy-back on the work of others so you can make a profit from what others have allowed you to do, there is going to be a backlash.

Merinid wrote: @Vesuvius1745 man that's some true words. May i quote you? :)

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Thanks, yeah anything I have written feel free to quote.

Wolvenlight wrote: I dunno Caladan, Ves has been nice to me so far. Granted, I don't agree with his points, and yeah, I've seen him lash out at others, but I think that has more to do with everyone lashing out at everyone.

People like Phantompally on the other hand... Holy crap, that guy needed to calm down. Thankfully, he seems to have realized this as well.

As for OP, you'll find all kinds. I'm a leech who was neutral, but I find myself siding with the pro-paid mods group more often than not. The only thing I don't like about paid mod systems is how I've heard that it messed up modding communities in other games, like the Sims.

ShinMorita wrote: @ acidzebra
So i guess that because i dont interact much with the "community" as you said, and cuz im not a modder myself, im a "leech" or "troll"? Maybe im not a modder because i cant realy get the hang of it, or maybe because i simply dont have the time to be modding, has that occured to you? Or, i might not donate to modders because i dont have the means to, or maybe because my parents wont allow me to spend money on the internet... Did this occured to you? Or even, i might not interact much with the community because i might be antisocial, or even shy... Did any of this occured to you? i guess no, otherwise you wouldnt have posted this comment here.
I did not insult any modder, neither stated my opinion about paied mods anywhere else, besides this post here.
Fyi, I did agree with modders being rewarded for their work... If there's something i know about, is doing something you know you worked hard for and not get any recognition from it, it sucks badly, proly one of the worst feelings in the world.
What i didnt agree was, that valve and bethesda were getting the majority of the cut, not to mention i read a post on reddit that bethesda thretened to sue a modder for trying to sell part of his mod some time ago, and now they join valve and come forward with the idea of selling mods? Like, what the f*** man?!... It's not fair, even less fair is that modders would only see any profit of their work if they'd sold more that 100$...
Working hard for something and not getting anything just because people didnt paied more than 100$ for it? It is not fair for modders.
Before you start adressing to the "community", you might want to rethink about what you are going to say first.

You're randomly judgeing people for said interactions or files uploaded without even knowing them... What does that make you? Does that make you any better than those who raged on the modders?
You're not a judge and even if you are, this isnt a court of law.

Instead of being around throwing more wood to the fire, you should instead try to help those who raged on modders realize that modders are the very pillars of the community, and if they decided to participate on the "Paied Mods" program, they had their own reasons, and best we, as a community, can do is support them on their decision, regardless of its outcome.

@Vesuvius1745 This statement has implications far beyond selling mods. I've heard this before from a self proclaimed pioneer of modding. My response to you is the same.

The entirety of Human Civilization and beyond is built on the backs of those who came before. No man and no thing is an island unto themselves. You say you pioneered modding, that may be true, but you stood on the backs of those who pioneered gaming in the first place, who in turn stood on the backs of those who pioneered computers, who stood on the backs of those who pioneered the use of fire, who stood on the backs of nature itself. If your argument were held as true, no one has the right to charge for anything, not mods, not games, not iPhone apps, not food. We should all be sacrificial animals. We all exist simply to serve others. A complete communal utopia where there are no possession, no rights, and no self. Certainly some do believe that. Its called Altruism.

[animalwtcm]

In response to post #24825259. #24825439, #24825784, #24826229, #24826374, #24826514, #24826589, #24826684, #24826709, #24826859, #24826869, #24827644, #24827839, #24827869, #24827954, #24828134, #24828199, #24828274, #24828519, #24828634, #24828644, #24828689, #24828809, #24829099, #24829419, #24829594 are all replies on the same post.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Several quotes

" you f*#@ing cancerous asshole, you greedy piece of s#*! is the beginning of the end for the modding community. hope you find death. unendorsed"

" you are no better than EA, get lost, leave the nexus! "

" unendorsed, was always having problems running this mod with others I liked, so kept installing/uninstalling, but I really appreciated what this mod was doing and the work you put into it"

" I found v5.0 on media fire, enjoy being spat on by the community and being black walled from modding. Also good lucking seeing any profit when there are who groups (lots of them) dedicated to leaking your mods. Here is the current list of sellouts [...] feel free to add your name as well to list of people who will never see a dime of money, last i checked greed is one of the 7 deadly sins. soo ummmm tell the devil i said hi when you meet him "

"Before you download this, please note this person was trying to sell it before the paid mods where removed. In other words sellout"

" I don't care about your sad life story. You concerned about money? You should've put more effort into your job, not doing a hobby for free. That's on you. I'm not paying you $2 for Horse Armor. I'm not going to pay you a cent so you can then run away with the cash with nothing holding you liable to update and finish your mod. I'm not going to pay you a God damn dime for amateur work on a game I've already paid for. That amounts to crap DLC"

This are just SOME random selection of "community" comments toward the mod authors who provided for FREE so many years mods, good or bad, small or huge.
A terrifying wave of the most disgusting and visceral hate, a wave of mud who covered FOR EVER the relation between mod authors and the community.
All of you who have splattered your hate and arrogance and hypocrisy all over the Internet but especially here on Nexus... the days of free modding are over.
You... the "community, made it possible.

And all this rage for nothing... you ever occurred in your minds clouded by "rights " and " morale"... that the move of Valve/Bethesda is not purely accidental?... that it was not a decision taken on the lunch brake " Hey John, lets make a buck from mods, what you say"... " Mmmm..'key Pete, let's throw the announce..."
Do you REALLY thing that?

Almost at the same time when Valve/Bethesda make their announcement, another big company make an extraordinary movement, giving to people, for FREE, the last version of their GAME ENGINE.
I repeat for those who read slow... THE LAST VERSION OF A GAME ENGINE FOR FREE !!!

I'm referring here to Epic Games... for those who lived deep beneath the earth in the last 20 years, Epic is one of the biggest game engine and games developer, Unreal 4 being one of the most powerful and versatile game engine.

So what they got... more games developers that they could EVER afford to pay!!!
Because they intent to promote also the games developed by the... SURPRISE!!! ... the MODDERS.
And everyone will be satisfied, the developers by releasing they creations and making money, the company by sustaining the enthusiasts AND gaining profits and finally the consumers, for having a quality certified game.

Those 2 events was to close in time ... making me to presume that Valve/Bethesda was trying to compete with Epic and their unprecedented and extraordinary movement in game industry.
It make me laugh those who claimed "WE Win...Huraaa"
Sadly... the answer is no, you have not won, THEY make a step back to regroup and chose a better strategy to enlist the modders... because THAT'S the stake, who will succeed to attract more creativity and enthusiasm.

You ... the "community " as a whole failed... failed to understand what is happening, failed to support and maintain the free modding.
Now the magic word is "donations"... bull****, I dare to prove anyone how many donations make from yesterday.
And one more thing... Skyrim is not the ONLY game who was modded, before that were many more others, Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3, FNV and that time the same "community "was acting in the same way as today.
YOU... the "community" was only able to grab what you needed and leave as quick as possible because, after all, that's Nexus, a download hub, that's all, just a download hub.

Sad and shameful

macintroll wrote: +1000
quote "Unreal Engine is now FREE
FREE for game development. FREE for Virtual Reality.
FREE for education. FREE for architecture. FREE for film.
GET UNREAL
Pay a 5% royalty on games and applications you release. We succeed when you succeed."
"The 5% royalty starts after the first $3,000 of revenue per product per quarter. Pay no royalty for film projects, contracting and consulting projects such as architecture, simulation and visualization."

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think its a bit harsh to paint everyone in the community with the same brush, just as it is bad for a select group of user (among the 9,000,000 on the Nexus) to be carrying the point of view for everyone.

My guess is that people who said some of these awful things (and nasty things were said from BOTH sides) were perhaps newish to the community, one that has been building in some shape or form for at least 15 years.

Many of the older and wiser folk of course saw this coming, however I believe it was the lack of transparency and communication from above that made many react. Say the governement decided overnight (as this fiasco felt like for some) that everyone should use bikes and then sent balifs round to everyones house to tow away the cars. Yes it may be for "the greater good" or "a sensible option" from some points of view but one cannot expect that people just fall into line without question or the fact that we should fight for our individual voice. Because sometimes those on high do not know best.

Perhaps some users and authors who said selfish or unconsidered things are just speaking from an isolated point of view and not seeing the bigger picture. I for one do not completely reject the idea of paid mods BUT the way it was implemented and the lack of rights and protection for both modders and users was a REAL concern and worry for people who are not just looking at the immediate gains or issues but the long term potential and that there were elements to this scheme as it was set out could actually be detrimental to the publishers themselves.

Customers are reliant on companies, companies are reliant on customers and both should have an equal say in proceedings if there is to be found any mutual respect and responsibilty.

retnav98 wrote: Speaking as one who HAS been an UNGRATEFUL TWAT, I am sorry, I sincerely am sorry.

I must also admit that I have more than 1 account. I could easily slither away into that one and no one's the wiser. I could go on with my other identity and FAN the FLAMES..create irreparable damage..IF that were my agenda...I could facilitate someone else's agenda by creating the sense that my views and feelings were representative of the community at large. I could get the entire 'APPLE CART" upturned so that the CORP interests seemed to be the more reasoned and honest.

It amazes me that so many GAMERS have yet to consider that they got GAMED.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ retnav98

Thank you for your honesty.

Wouldn't surprise me if there were staff from both companies floating around the forums "undercover".

Part of the healing process for all this will involve some understanding and forgiveness.

CaladanAnduril wrote: @ sunshinenbrick

At that's was just an insignificant example of what was said about the modders and this subject.
This kind of decision ( Valve/Bethesda) is taken always after some market research and surveys.
And making that announcement suggest that the results where promising.
What they don't expected for sure was the tidal wave of hate and rage, towards modders and the companies... but you could bet that they will be back ( Valve/Bethesda) and when this will be happening, they will have a better strategy.

@ macintroll

Damn right mate... also if you are so kind to google after Dying Light game... and what they released this days?...:)... it's interestin how initial they denied modding for that game, threatening even with law, now they made an 180 degree turn, interesting ?!
The modding community is a golden mine and more companies realise that.
So far Epic had the most fair arrangement for all sides, I know for sure at least 150 people who are working around the clock with Unreal 4... including me.
After I have done modding for ANY Bethesda game.

sunshinenbrick wrote: It still stands that Beth and Val remained very distant on the whole thing, just allowing modders to battle it out with each other. Just because there was pre-planning does not mean that it was well thought out.

EDIT: Modders are not only people who have something to download.

retnav98 wrote: I DON'T believe Modders are obligated to forgive me my selfish sense of entitlement on those occasions where my attitude was not tempered with the known and understood fact that this Modder put in immeasurable effort for NOTHING.

I DO believe I am obligated to at least humbly and contritely offer my apologies and regret. I wasn't the one offering the quotes the OP listed...but in a lesser way...I DID.

rickerhk wrote: Wow, I just happened to download the Unreal engine last night. After Project Brazil is done, that's is where you'll find me. Not making mods for haters.

CaladanAnduril wrote: @ rickerhk

I salute you my friend from the distant quest for heaven, from the Deep Blue , again, a true thank you.
I will alway remember you, FreddyFarnsworth, Thaiauxin, Buff Hamster, Humannature66 not only as a terrible moders ( in the good way :) ) and tech savvy, but more important as good people, with good hearts and good will.
It was a pleasure and privilege to meet and work with you.

@ retnav98

( Gracious bowing) It take courage to make this kind of statement and you know what... for me personally is more valuable than 10000 "donations"... Bless you

sunshinenbrick wrote: retnav98

What candour! I think there are modders who appreciate that and are willing to view this more broadly than others might do.

Many modders get much more than financial interest out of modding. I myself do a lot of modding but not for finacial gain, I do it because I love it (ok sometimes its a challenging pain in the ass) and because it allows me to get the true value out my games. Thrown into the mix I now know a little about making textures, 3d models and scripting, something I can use in many different areas of computer and design industries.

greggorypeccary wrote: I personally have been using the Cryengine for 6 months>
@rickerhk
I don't know if you remember me but we conversed a few times. I credited you and Afterschool special as an inspiration for my mod. Hell I even mention Paul Edgecomb several times in my mod. My point being if you want to check out Novac Public Library And think we could collaborate I am open to it.

Xavathos wrote: Woops, double post.

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ greggorypeccary

That's the spirit! Like I have said before Nexus supports any game that can be modded now. Explore, evolve, create. That is the magic of modding. It's a cultural thing, not just a market strategy.

@ Xavathos

Very wise words. I have met so many thoughtful people through this, maybe... just maybe... it was a *good* thing. I stand corrected, maybe it was somewhat well thought out, even if a gamble.

Xavathos wrote: I completely understand the point of view of mod authors, and I'm shocked to read these quotes, even if it was glaringly obvious how this would inevitably unfold.

However, the reaction of some modders has been overly extreme as well. Taking things like the quotes above personally and to heart is a big mistake. Especially if the consequence of that is taking your mods down and quitting the modding scene, as I've seen a few people do already.

I know it is a struggle for respect, appreciation, or even simply acknowledgement of the fact that hey, all these mods are here because modders brought them to you, nothing more. There is no entitlement to any of it, for anyone other than the authors themselves. But even then, I think it wrong to fan the flames with more hate when you're not being respected, more disappointments when you're not being appreciated.

We should let it be what it is, even if it's been an ugly week, and learn from our mistakes. There will always be people that make your blood boil with their attitude, as a professional, you need to be able to remain composed, and focus on what you set out to do in the first place, which for most of the modders is their mods.

Don't dwell on the outspoken minority that disappoint you with their disrespect and bad attitude (to put it lightly) and instead focus on the majority of people who really do appreciate your work and greatly enjoy it every day. Let this horrible event be a good thing, and use the attention this subject is getting right now to let every reader know how you feel, in a constructive way, so people know what YOU expect as modders.

I'm sure that many people, like myself, who have absolutely no destructive intentions, are willing to put in more effort to make modders feel more appreciated if they feel it has been insufficient. Give it a shot.

sunshinenbrick wrote: Any one else here also into the whole synthwave retro movement?

EDIT: https://vhsglitch.bandcamp.com/album/evil-technology-album

if you have no idea what I'm talking about :)

EDIT: So much stuff to spend my money on, so much talent. When I have the money, I am happy to reward people for their efforts. We need to find trust in others we know and not take the first corporate carrot dangled in our faces.

greggorypeccary wrote: sunshinenbrick
I don't think anything That comes from my new project will be on the Nexus. That is on purpose.

sunshinenbrick wrote: FREEDOM!

I am happy being able to choose, and that is what I feel has been the most important fight fought about this.

rickerhk wrote: @greggorypeccary
Thank you. I don't think I will have time to collaberate but I definitely want to check out your mod. It's been awhile since i've actually played the game but I will be making a new load order in the comming weeks.

@Xavathos
Only my Skyrim mods have been deleted. My fallout mods will stay. With the fallout communities I have only ever experienced mutual respect and helpfulness. I may even update one or two of them in the comming months if I have time.
I will just leave it at that. I think I am done scolding the Skyrim community and will just get back to FNV full time for now.

asmodan wrote: That is not "SOME random selection of "community" comments".

Here is another "random selection":

"Thanks for all the work so far. I don't agree with your decision but I respect it. Hope it works out for you!"

"I am quite disappointed with your decision to change an already existing mod (albeit an updated one) to a pay-to-use system, it very much alienates a wide margin of players who don't have the disposable income. Please consider abandoning the steam workshop, and end this fiasco. That being said, this mod is fantastic, and i very much cannot stand to play without it."

"Just endorsed your mod, because I appreciate the work you've put in it and I also think that you deserve money for your work. I dislike the Steam workshop and Valve and I am not happy with your decision to sell the 5.0 version on steam, but I like the 4.1 version, which is for free and that's why you get my endorsement."

"Hey I really love your mod, it is essential to many other mods because of the integrated MCM. Please don't charge it on the Workshop, and if you do, please don't remove it from Nexus. It's a very important mod to other modders as well. Thank you"

Xavathos wrote: @ sunshinenbrick

Exactly. I think most of the people that signed the petition against this entire idea were not against the idea of modders being rewarded for their work, but rather the way Valve and Bethesda implemented the whole thing. And when I say implemented, I mean hammered home.

The 30% cut Valve got out of it is default, I mean, Valve gets 30% of -everything- that sells on Steam, so this would be no exception in that respect. The other 70% however, was up to the developer to decide, and I think Bethesda was being extremely greedy taking 45% of it for themselves, just for having made the game. Especially knowing how much they've made from selling Skyrim on various platforms already, and the fact that even if mods are made through their toolkit, using their assets and resources, it is still something created by the person that creates it, not Bethesda, and therefor the creator should be rewarded the most for their originality, persistence and honest hard work.

If anything, -that- is what bothered me the most about this entire ordeal. It was never fair, for anyone, even the modders. I guess that's why only -fifteen- of the modders now so verbally (or otherwise) assaulted signed up for it to begin with? :)

CaladanAnduril wrote: I'm afraid that the damage done this days is irrecuperable.

Maybe you don't know who Rickerhk is or what Project Brazil is ( the entire team lead by Thaiauxin managed to create something unique in the Fallout universe and in the modding community, an entire new universe, the word total conversion is too small to define their creation and I'm speaking from someone point of view who reached a peak in Fallout modding).
This fellow modder helped me in a critical moment, out of the blue, with lipsync ( and those who knows how cumbersome and boring is that operation AND for hundreds of spoken lines ! ).
To bring this kind of man to the point to wrote " Not making mod for haters"... believe me, it's a painful loss for the "community".

And this truly extraordinary modder has a great influence on other...

I fear not of those modders who, with flames and noises, will announce that will hide their modes... I fear those who quietly, without big bangs, will leave the scene for ever, migrating to other horizons.

I respect any mod maker, no matter of size and scope, because I know exactly the amount of dedication and excitement is involved in the creation process.
No matter you created a nail mod, a quest and adventure mod or an armor or weapon mod, you invested your time, soul and money ( energy bill could go quite high :( ) to CREATE something.
No one from this haters will EVER understand the damage done by an UNENDORSEMENT button click when some idiotic request is not fulfilled by the author.

We will see the results in the following weeks...

CaladanAnduril wrote: @ asmodan
A drop of normality in an OCEAN of hate...
Thank you for your point, that's what is sad me most, those people are simply engulfed in the torrent of other rage.

Oups... what I was talking about!!!

" Phew, we fought for the good cause and won.

Sad for the modders we have lost in the aftermath but we did it.

We can be proud for not just bending over to Valve and Bethesda"

Sad for the modders... yeah, like you care!

sunshinenbrick wrote: @ Xavathos

As well as money, the main issue for me was the practical illegal employment of customers while giving them absolutley no rights. They even admitted they had the idea that modders would be getting paid more than the core staff of the game development team. In turn they would likely off-load most of the work to modders.

Could have legs I don't know, but there must be proper in depth discussions on this and evaluations of exactly what we are being sold, what the Sales of Goods Act, EULA and TOC are.

The Last Istari wrote: Yeah, the past few days have made me realize that there are some serious issues underlying the community. The community here is Gamergate 2.0.

sunshinenbrick wrote: It is rife everywhere!

Only thing I can say is to educate yourself as much as possible. Read everything you can and find out what your rights are. If you don't... you will get shafted!

Love brazil,, keep fightin the good fight!!!

[ShinMorita]

In response to post #24837939. #24838554 is also a reply to the same post.

acidzebra wrote:

For those who are saying that people who want all free mods forever are "leechers" and feel entitled to free stuff, let me turn that around for a moment.

Aren't modders who've been making mods for free for years, as a hobby, as experience, whatever, and now suddenly expecting, no, DEMANDING they be paid for what was previously free -- aren't they leechers as well?

 

Actually, that's not what was said. If all you do at the nexus is download and bolt, you're a leech in my book. I don't even particularly mind people like that, until they go around telling content creators what they can and can't do with their work, and crowing about how "we won" when all I see is loss - loss of trust, loss of good people and unique mods, there is no "win" here. The valve for-pay system will be back with FO4 and/or TES6, you can bet on it. Sleeker, less hamfisted and less poorly executed than this fiasco, but there's a huge marketplace for user-generated content. It won't be let go of, so there's no "win" there either.

 

As far as I know nobody was demanding you pay for their content. Unless your view is that somehow every vendor/creator/etc is "demanding" you pay them for their product. Or you think that somehow you're entitled to free stuff forever because someone else will bear the cost - be it monetary, time investment, or expertise. There is a cost attached to these things, invisible as it may be.

 

Do people even know the TOS of Bethesda? Since forever, you are not allowed to ask for any monetary compensation for whatever you create with the CK, period. Do you think if that hadn't been there for-pay mods wouldn't have risen much earlier? It's been talked about since forever. The nexus has toed this line as closely as they dared, they allow donations, but authors are not allowed to ask for donations. The button has been on mod pages that choose to have it for a good while now. Several prominent modders - people whose downloads number in the hundreds of thousands - have stated that only a few donations were ever made and I have no reason to doubt them. I do have to say the button was in an awkward place somewhat, but still, very few donations overall.

 

NOW, in the aftermath of this miserable episode, it has moved to a more prominent place, but I think the community - the actual community, not a bunch of hit-and-run freeloaders - has had its wake-up call. I hope it lasts.

 

For the record, I am not personally interested in selling mods, the support headache would be worth more than any monetary compensation. But I do think there's room for both paid and free mods, and I do think content creators have the right to determine how their product is shared. And consumers have the right to partake, or not.

acidzebra wrote: I actually saw it the first time and I sent you a PM. Hope you don't mind.

So i guess that because i dont interact much with the "community" as you said, and cuz im not a modder myself, and because i download a mod wait 20 min endorse and bolt to playing skyrim, im a "leech"?
Maybe im not a modder because i cant realy get the hang of it, or maybe because i simply dont have the time to be modding, has that occured to you? Or maybe i bolt to playing skyrim after downloading a mod, because thats the only time of the day i can actualy enjoy some gaming. Did you try to see things in this prespective? Or, i might not donate to modders because i dont have the means to, or maybe because my parents wont allow me to spend money on the internet... Did this occured to you? Or even, i might not interact much with the community because i might be antisocial, or even shy... Did any of this occured to you? i guess no, otherwise you wouldnt have posted this comment here.
I did not insult any modder, neither stated my opinion about paied mods anywhere else, besides this post here.
Fyi, I did agree with modders being rewarded for their work... If there's something i know about, is doing something you know you worked hard for and not get any recognition from it, it sucks badly, proly one of the worst feelings in the world.
What i didnt agree was, that valve and bethesda were getting the majority of the cut, not to mention i read a post on reddit that bethesda thretened to sue a modder for trying to sell part of his mod some time ago, and now they join valve and come forward with the idea of selling mods? Like, what the f*** man?!... It's not fair, even less fair is that modders would only see any profit of their work if they'd sold more that 100$...
Working hard for something and not getting anything just because people didnt paied more than 100$ for it? It is not fair for modders.
Before you start adressing to the "community", you might want to rethink about what you are going to say first.

You're randomly judgeing people for said interactions or files uploaded without even knowing them... What does that make you? Does that make you any better than those who raged on the modders?
You're not a judge and even if you are, this isnt a court of law.

Instead of being around throwing more wood to the fire, you should instead try to help those who raged on modders realize that modders are the very pillars of the community, If they decide to stop modding due to hate comments twords them the community dies.
And if they decided to participate on the "Paied Mods" program, they had their own reasons, and best we, as a community, can do is support them on their decision, regardless of its outcome.

Yes i posted it twice so that you can actualy read! Edited April 30, 2015 by ShinMorita

[Vesuvius1745]

In response to post #24837689.

popopipo wrote: Aren't you tired of arguing ? 1946+ posts of trolling...

* The modding community developped because it was free.

* The majority (and not only the majority of leechers) don't want modding to turn in a cheap-DLC (not always sold that cheap) workshop without any quality assurance.

* Being rude is wrong. The paying mod system is a wrong system, but there is no reason to be insulting towards the modders who wanted to be part of a wrong system.

* We should all be grateful to all the modders who left freely the result of their work for all to share.

* Last but not least, nobody will read the 2000 posts of flaming and complaining. Maybe it's time to move on to something more useful.

Excuse my english, I'm french and arrogant.

Peace to all.

Well said. It should be pointed out, however, that the folks keeping this alive are a handful of modders still angry that they can't peddle their stuff on Steam.

I feel sorry for them in a way. Bethesda dangled a giant carrot in front of them, and then yanked it away. Never mind that this was just an opening salvo in an agenda that had nothing to do with "helping mod authors", and that giant money carrot they dangled would have quickly withered away as Bethesda gained more control over this whole thing. These modders saw money signs, and that prevented them from seeing the forest for the trees, and some of them still can't see it.