Drawing a line under recent events and moving on

[aegiltheugly]

In response to post #24873139. #24874159, #24874314, #24874474, #24874519, #24874634, #24874639, #24874729, #24874774, #24874924, #24874984, #24875019, #24875044, #24875074, #24875124, #24875219, #24875289, #24875334, #24875454, #24875484, #24875669, #24876774, #24876829, #24877709, #24877889, #24877969, #24878254, #24878299, #24878569, #24878604, #24878759, #24879069, #24879579, #24879589, #24882059, #24884249, #24885029, #24885084, #24885349, #24885354, #24885399, #24885969, #24885999, #24887819, #24887979, #24888049, #24888949, #24889684, #24891174, #24938644 are all replies on the same post.

thefinn wrote: I doubt they will drop this.

They will do more research than smoking some doobies in the coffee lounge at valve and saying "You know what would be cool ?" then we'll see something similar coming up again in the future.

There's way too much money involved for this to go away.

Personally, if they'd just add a "donate" button and not try to "sell mods" that might go down better.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: With the next TES game, I could see them charging for the Creation Kit, and then setting it so you have to "share" your mods on a specific website they control, and then charging people a flat-access rate to the website.

Oh, and I can see them releasing the next TES game even more incomplete than Skyrim. Release a barebones game, make money off it, then let the modders finish your game, and make money off of that too. I bet I've just given some pencil pusher at Bethesda a 3-inch erection.

wulfharth wrote: That's called an alpha release, and that happens everyday.

Bethesda has always tried hard to keep everyone happy (except with the exclusive DLC period releases). They just wanted to give people who make mods a chance to do it for a living. Shame on them for creating jobs and stimulating the mod community. They should all kill themselves. Right? Should I make a sign protest mod about them offering opportunity?

How do I block this guy? The option isn't at the bottom of his posts.

wulfharth wrote: Ha! I found out where to do it, but I can't block you Vesuvius1745 because you've never contributed a mod, so you aren't listed as an author.

So why again do you feel you have the right to have an opinion on what actual mod contributor's are allowed to do with their mods? You aren't even one of us.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, my mistake. I didn't realize the corporation known as Bethesda was being altruistic, and just wanted to stimulate the economy while at the same time giving amateur mod authors their Big Break. You're not only a glass-is-half-full kind of guy, you're a glass-is-half-full when it's actually empty kind of guy.

Instead of trying to make a buck off of mod authors, they should concentrate on making sure the next TES release is stable and complete. Yes, game companies are releasing their games earlier and earlier, and frankly, many gamers are sick of paying to Beta test unfinished products.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Good question, wulth. As someone who paid for Skyrim, I have the same right as the 133,000+ other people who signed the petition given to Bethesda telling them what we thought of this pay-for system.

I suspect the pencil pusher who came up with this idea is probably shaking in his boots. Wondering if he will have a job next month. Maybe he's even trolling these forums to test the waters, and not liking what he is seeing.

thefinn wrote: Well I am a pretty harsh critic of games, I think Skyrim is one of the best I've played in years.

There might've been some bugs at launch, but few are the games you'll find without them and frankly with the size of Skyrim they are to be expected.

I don't see how it was "incomplete".

wulfharth wrote: @Vesuvius-Instead of telling super successful multi-million dollar corporations with giant and loyal fan bases how to run their businesses, you should go try and make a dungeon or create and add a custom 3D model. I'm sure you'll change your tune very quickly.

You have no frame of reference for what it means or takes to be a mod author. Stop telling everyone what to do or what they should do. You aren't qualified.

thefinn wrote: The difference being that the question for you is "Can I still get free stuff?" while the question for modders is "Is this a system I find reasonable to work with?"

The only saving grace to me was the thought that perhaps I should start putting together my feminine walk mod again to be paid for, or to be the free alternative to the other mod of its' kind. It actually made me think this (for the very small mods I have done) it was in fact my first thought.

So it can indeed instill the impetus in modders to mod.

However, the drawbacks of the current idea are awful.

It leaves the door open for game companies to make mods "steam only" in the future for benefits to the bottom line for instance.

wulfharth wrote: The official paid DLC is Steam only. Why not the smaller not official but sanctioned DLC? We always have the Nexus if modders want to choose to throw up an donate button to not get pressed and give free work to the sweet and loving community.

thefinn wrote: You're missing the point.

They can make the game so that when it runs it only allows mods that steam downloaded.

And they would be...
1) In their rights to do so.
2) getting more profits by doing so and they are corporations you know?

Reaper0021 wrote: thefinn is right in that regard. IF THEY WANTED to be tyrannical about it that is.

thefinn wrote: And when have you known corporations not to be ?

DRM itself had huge backlash at the time... but here it is still.

Reaper0021 wrote: I agree with you thefinn. I'll tell you one that isn't and I defy you to say otherwise: CDProjekt Red. But in all aspects of this you're 100% right.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Wulf, your ad hominem aside, I'm not going to post my resume because it's irrelevant. Every person who bought Skyrim (they are called customers) have an absolute right to tell Bethesda what they think of their business practices. It doesn't matter if not a single one of those 133,000 people who signed the petition never wrote a mod, or has not done something YOU think "qualifies" them to giver their opinion. They still get to give it.

Of course Bethesda is under no obligation to listen to their customers. In this case they did. They probably also realized what a Hiroshima-type disaster this was, and if they were smart, fired the individual(s) responsible for this abortion of creativity.

wulfharth wrote: If Bethesda wanted to be tyrants, they probably wouldn't have out of pocketed to provide and update the creation kit. And that's just for the PC gamers mind you. That is a special gift just to us that is more valuable than any 10 mods on here. You should feel loved and have more faith in them.

wulfharth wrote: Vesuvius-You are Bethesda's customer. Not mine. I don't want your made up resume. All I know is that you haven't posted a single mod. You aren't a modder. Why are you telling us what we can do with our work?

Reaper0021 wrote: It's not about lack of love or faith. It's about common business practices. A business remains a business as long as it can "TURN A PROFIT" and when it can't no longer (ATARI, Commodore, SEGA, etc.) then it stops becoming a business and becomes a share holders nightmare. All of this is just theory talk...but in the back of my mind I remain cautious about what the future holds.

thefinn wrote: Totally agree, if I were going to have love or faith (without going to church) it'd be in the Nexus, not some new system Valve has talked Bethesda into.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I, nor anybody else, is telling mod authors what they can or cannot do with their "work". As Bethesda's customers, we explained to them we did not want a pay-for paradigm for mods. We gave our opinion, which as customers we have every right to give. They didn't have to listen to their customers, but they did. Since Bethesda owns the Intellectual property rights to Skyrim, and mod authors sign their EULA accepting their contract, it is Bethesda who gets to tell mod authors what they can or cannot do with their derivative creations. If a mod author is upset by that, then they should take it up with Bethesda. Or mod for a game that allows paid-for mods. Whining about it here, or getting upset with the people who bought Skyrim and gave their opinion, is not going to be fruitful.

Reaper0021 wrote: And to continue on this point by Vesuvius1745....when I give my $$$$ for anything in this world be it new tires, PC parts, cable T.V./internet, books, food, games, music, etc. I HAVE the right as a paying customer to offer my critique or displeasure or ANYTHING with what I paid for if it doesn't meet my expectations as a customer. I don't have to be a tire manufacturer to offer my opinion that I like Firestone better than the other brands. You make no sense man in your argument. You act as if we are indebted to Bethesda and I can assure you it's the other way around. Kudos given to Vesuvius1745.

crashpilot wrote: @Wulfharth,

Since there is not that much of your work you have to worry about, I would say let us our opinion and we let you yours.

Pauliwhop wrote: You don't have to be a doctor to sue for Malpractice. Try again.

treota wrote: "All I know is that you haven't posted a single mod, so you are not a modder" - This is basically the same as telling a carpenter they aren't valid because they have never carved mahogany, who is to say that he has never contributed anything to any modding scene for any game ever created or even created content that he didn't feel like uploading.

More close to home telling a critic that their opinion is worthless because they have never done what they critique (which is pretty common).

I'm 99% sure that there are plenty of food critics for example that have never been professional chefs.

thefinn wrote: The fact that your chair is made of wood, doesn't make you a carpenter.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing."

Nicholas Butler

treota wrote: The carpenter idea was based on the person having modded something at some point in their life which is probably (not always of course) the case if said person has a keen interest in modding.

Being a creator does not make your opinion more or less valid than your consumer. :)

oldnotweak wrote: we need a block function so every mod author can block Vesuvius and people like him

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Oldnottweak It would be easier to just take all your mods off the Nexus, otherwise you will have to block about aprox. 133,000+ people (the number of people who signed that petition given to Bethesda).

And since we are blocking people who think differently than us, then maybe the "Forever Free" modders will block YOU from all of their mods, and the programmers of ENB, SKSE, Wyre Bash, and every other utility you've benefited from can block your IP so you can no longer download their stuff.

It can be a giant block festival. Wouldn't that be fun?

Ghatto wrote: Oh yeah that wouldn't go horribly wrong now would it?

thefinn wrote: Being a creator doesn't make my opinion more valid than my consumer regarding the mod sure.

However, being the creator makes my opinion more valid than my consumer regarding the system by which I make (or not) money off my creation.

Otherwise we'd be looking at a society where we had no money at all.
Noone would ever want to pay for anything and that'd be it.

So obviously the people at say Mattel decide that they are gonna charge money for their s#*!.

Your opinion on that matter ... doesn't matter. Where there's money to be made - corporations go.

At this point paid modding will be coming in. There's little doubt of that.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-05-01-sooner-or-later-paid-for-mods-are-coming

The only question remains "how?" and "when?"

The system itself is important, and if people want to enter a discussion saying "there shouldn't be a system" they are just gonna be ignored by I'd have to say - the large majority of modders and likely valve too. Expect it.

From Gabe's comments he's aware of the fact they screwed up by using Skyrim as the entry point for this change in the platform on steam. This probably means there will be years before we see a Bethesda game take on paid modding. (Fallout IV or TES VI most likely).

The issue remains will it start to encroach on the nexus, will it stifle modding ?!

Will the word "modding" merely change meaning - like so many other things do over time (and usually not for the better).

For instance what happens if the Unofficial Skyrim Patch goes paid ?

HEAPS of other modders have to change their mods (Through TESVEdit) to encompass changes in USP each time Arthmoor updates it. Otherwise their mods overwrite his changes.

Do they have to pay for USP ? That seems like a fairly central issue too - dependencies.

There are still a lot of question for Bethesda imo.
I'm not sure if I'm for or against the whole idea.

Ghatto wrote: I disagree. I don't see why my opinion shouldn't retain value simply because it criticises the system as a whole and makes clear my desire to go without it. I understand how it positions myself in the argument as 'either/or' rather than compromise but that's that. Yes it's a see-saw that goes both ways; government policy has been that decisive for generations and we could all benefit on compromise there, but unfortunately that still doesn't work because it then creates a new 'either/or' which is instead a 'enjoy compromise/suffer compromise'.

Tyerial12 wrote: problem is we know its comming but mod authors better be aware pirates will come as well.

Someone will buy your mod then release it on free sites anonomsly and bam free mod

WightMage wrote: Have we really come to this?

treota wrote: @thefinn
I agree with pretty much everything there, however the consumer does vastly dictate the payment platform. If consumers disagree with the way said creators make money then they will not spend their money there and the creator will have no choice but to try a different way of making money. (for the record I totally agree paid mods are here to stay, nothing to be done about it now)

Which is where the somewhat wrong saying comes from "the customer is always right". (yeah I hate that crap too, worked in retail for a few years and that line just grinds the gears) It is true in the sense that if the customer disagrees then your job and livelihood is down the drain.

Any opinion is the same value as any other opinion, it's the person who decides which opinions are more or less valid to them personally.

wulfharth wrote: @crashpilot- Good morning. I had a lot more up, but I pulled them down because the community showed how appreciative it is. I'm re-working most of it to release when paid mods come back. Which will probably be with TES6. If you check the credits in the top 20 file "Immersive Weapons", you will see that I made that entire dragonbone weapon set. You've likely been using my weapons for years.

I've pulled everything down. The more our community shows it's true colors, the more mod authors will follow suit.

Tyerial12 wrote: @wulfharth lol oh well then guess we dont see your mods for free it dont bother me one bit.. Ill give my money to non chilish mod authors

np11 wrote: @wulfharth Good PR there, I'd love to see how many people who've actually seen you post will buy these fabled mods.

People, before you start selling things, you should really take some business, marketing or even psychology classes. Addressing potential customers like that and expecting your business to flourish... Good luck with that.

Tanesis12 wrote: @ Vesuvius1745 I think that paid mods will be on the next Beth game, whether TES or FO. I don't think however it will imact quality as that would be a second pr disaster that Beth don't need.

@ thefinn "They can make the game so that when it runs it only allows mods that steam downloaded."

I think that Beth would want more control over modding in general if theres money involved. If only 1 site was allowed to run paid mods then mod authors would obviously prefere that site if they directly benefitted (I think?).

Incorporation of real life monies will change the way people use mods drasitcally and alter the relationship between mod author and mod consumer, the later who is now a customer (who should be able to expect certain consumer rights but thats a different issue). I can't help but feel that when, rather than if, mods become paid the only real winners will be Beth & Valve.

Also good posts thefinn, nicely insightful.

3AMt wrote: Horse armors, swords and hats for 1.99 each for everyone. Yeah have fun selling mods.

Brasscatcher wrote: I do try to avoid name calling, but I will call stupid behavior what it is. Most of this thread is full of stupid. Go ahead, accept Bethesda's offer. I bet every single one of you won't see a single bit of useful profit from anything you create. If you think trash-talking or belittling part of the community, or attempting to invalidate the opinions of one part of the community will net you anything, you are incorrect.


Stop being stupid. Be productive instead.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Wulfharth

You should toughen your emotional "skin" if you want to stay in the modders community.
People like vesuvius will ALWAYS have DEMANDS, stupid and irrelevant for you.

Because THAT is what he want to smoke screen behind his fancy words and pseudo arguments, his pitiful demands.

Hi have paid for Skyrim game? ... good for him.
But he HAD NOT paid for YOUR or ANYONE mod, he could comment as long as he wish about Skyrim but when talking about your mods, your acts and your decisions, he's pure and simple hypocrite.

Again, if you paid for Skyrim

fru1tcak3s wrote: > charging for the Creation Kit

Open source creation kit :P

wulfharth wrote: I don't need to have good PR with people who think they deserve everything for free. That's a pretty crappy customer base to build.

I'm moving on to another mod community. This one will be dead fairly soon. Be well all. I wish you all the luck in the world.

Brasscatcher wrote: Well...bye! :)

thefinn wrote: Yeah tend to agree, I think TB/Dark0ne/Brumbek say it best here:

If you're just downloading and not contributing, not a forum user, not even hitting the endorse button - then who cares what your opinion is? It's only going to be the usual kinds of self-serving entitled crap that we see everywhere else on the net.

np11 wrote: @wulfharth How crappy the customer base is is irrelevant. You want their money and you want to make a profit. That's all a business needs to know. If your customers are becoming a huge bother, you can deny them services, but you need to do so as politely as possible. The moment you start bickering and being aggressive to your customers, you've lost the game. Look at Valve and Bethesda's responses for god's sake. You'll get a feel of what a professional response should be like.

Well, have fun and good luck then.

WightMage wrote: @np11

As someone who works in customer service and has their own business on the side, I could not agree more.

Tyerial12 wrote: @wulfharth

For one i dont believe or want everything FREE i want a fair and working system that makes sure when we BUY A MOD that it works as it should and if it dosent we get more than one day for a refund or a way to contact the mod author if we want a fix. Prob is if a mod author just quits doing it means NOW the user is stuck with a broken mod.

also people are going to charge WAY to much for a mod that just adds one item or changes a couple textures. there needs to be a limit on this

But with the way your acting good luck on your future bussiness practices

hector530 wrote: "I, nor anybody else, is telling mod authors what they can or cannot do with their "work""

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA good one

Hey! - My self-serving entitled crap is special. I have a sixth grade award somewhere that proves it. Blue ribbon and everything. When I saw the news about mods I figured "oh well, I'll decide which of these are actually worth paying for and which are just nice". When I saw the business arrangement I thought "They're turning these people into contract labor without incurring any associated overhead. I hope some of them are smart enough to run this by their lawyers". If you are running a small business (which is essentially what you will be doing under the paid mods model) always have an accountant and a lawyer on retainer. It's not expensive for what you get. The more I read, with the policies they were putting into place and the vitriol from some users, the more I became of the opinion that modders were getting screwed by both sides without the courtesy of a kiss or reach around. With the exception of a couple that I would happily trip with one of my canes because their egos seem out-sized, I do have sympathy for them.

As a user (I can't mod for shite) I understand that I have been getting something that the creators have chosen to share and I thank them for it. I do not however think that negates my opinion because the relationship between the two groups is symbiotic. I see this as a poorly executed trial balloon by Valve and Bethesda. Paid mods will be back with FO4 or TES6 but they will have put a lot more thought into it than they did this time around.

[sunshinenbrick]

 

In response to post #24873139. #24874159, #24874314, #24874474, #24874519, #24874634, #24874639, #24874729, #24874774, #24874924, #24874984, #24875019, #24875044, #24875074, #24875124, #24875219, #24875289, #24875334, #24875454, #24875484, #24875669, #24876774, #24876829, #24877709, #24877889, #24877969, #24878254, #24878299, #24878569, #24878604, #24878759, #24879069, #24879579, #24879589, #24882059, #24884249, #24885029, #24885084, #24885349, #24885354, #24885399, #24885969, #24885999, #24887819, #24887979, #24888049, #24888949, #24889684, #24891174, #24938644 are all replies on the same post.

 

 

 

thefinn wrote: I doubt they will drop this.

 

They will do more research than smoking some doobies in the coffee lounge at valve and saying "You know what would be cool ?" then we'll see something similar coming up again in the future.

 

There's way too much money involved for this to go away.

 

Personally, if they'd just add a "donate" button and not try to "sell mods" that might go down better.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: With the next TES game, I could see them charging for the Creation Kit, and then setting it so you have to "share" your mods on a specific website they control, and then charging people a flat-access rate to the website.

 

Oh, and I can see them releasing the next TES game even more incomplete than Skyrim. Release a barebones game, make money off it, then let the modders finish your game, and make money off of that too. I bet I've just given some pencil pusher at Bethesda a 3-inch erection.

wulfharth wrote: That's called an alpha release, and that happens everyday.

 

Bethesda has always tried hard to keep everyone happy (except with the exclusive DLC period releases). They just wanted to give people who make mods a chance to do it for a living. Shame on them for creating jobs and stimulating the mod community. They should all kill themselves. Right? Should I make a sign protest mod about them offering opportunity?

 

How do I block this guy? The option isn't at the bottom of his posts.

wulfharth wrote: Ha! I found out where to do it, but I can't block you Vesuvius1745 because you've never contributed a mod, so you aren't listed as an author.

 

So why again do you feel you have the right to have an opinion on what actual mod contributor's are allowed to do with their mods? You aren't even one of us.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, my mistake. I didn't realize the corporation known as Bethesda was being altruistic, and just wanted to stimulate the economy while at the same time giving amateur mod authors their Big Break. You're not only a glass-is-half-full kind of guy, you're a glass-is-half-full when it's actually empty kind of guy.

 

Instead of trying to make a buck off of mod authors, they should concentrate on making sure the next TES release is stable and complete. Yes, game companies are releasing their games earlier and earlier, and frankly, many gamers are sick of paying to Beta test unfinished products.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Good question, wulth. As someone who paid for Skyrim, I have the same right as the 133,000+ other people who signed the petition given to Bethesda telling them what we thought of this pay-for system.

 

I suspect the pencil pusher who came up with this idea is probably shaking in his boots. Wondering if he will have a job next month. Maybe he's even trolling these forums to test the waters, and not liking what he is seeing.

thefinn wrote: Well I am a pretty harsh critic of games, I think Skyrim is one of the best I've played in years.

 

There might've been some bugs at launch, but few are the games you'll find without them and frankly with the size of Skyrim they are to be expected.

 

I don't see how it was "incomplete".

wulfharth wrote: @Vesuvius-Instead of telling super successful multi-million dollar corporations with giant and loyal fan bases how to run their businesses, you should go try and make a dungeon or create and add a custom 3D model. I'm sure you'll change your tune very quickly.

 

You have no frame of reference for what it means or takes to be a mod author. Stop telling everyone what to do or what they should do. You aren't qualified.

thefinn wrote: The difference being that the question for you is "Can I still get free stuff?" while the question for modders is "Is this a system I find reasonable to work with?"

 

The only saving grace to me was the thought that perhaps I should start putting together my feminine walk mod again to be paid for, or to be the free alternative to the other mod of its' kind. It actually made me think this (for the very small mods I have done) it was in fact my first thought.

 

So it can indeed instill the impetus in modders to mod.

 

However, the drawbacks of the current idea are awful.

 

It leaves the door open for game companies to make mods "steam only" in the future for benefits to the bottom line for instance.

wulfharth wrote: The official paid DLC is Steam only. Why not the smaller not official but sanctioned DLC? We always have the Nexus if modders want to choose to throw up an donate button to not get pressed and give free work to the sweet and loving community.

thefinn wrote: You're missing the point.

 

They can make the game so that when it runs it only allows mods that steam downloaded.

 

And they would be...

1) In their rights to do so.

2) getting more profits by doing so and they are corporations you know?

Reaper0021 wrote: thefinn is right in that regard. IF THEY WANTED to be tyrannical about it that is.

thefinn wrote: And when have you known corporations not to be ?

 

DRM itself had huge backlash at the time... but here it is still.

Reaper0021 wrote: I agree with you thefinn. I'll tell you one that isn't and I defy you to say otherwise: CDProjekt Red. But in all aspects of this you're 100% right.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Wulf, your ad hominem aside, I'm not going to post my resume because it's irrelevant. Every person who bought Skyrim (they are called customers) have an absolute right to tell Bethesda what they think of their business practices. It doesn't matter if not a single one of those 133,000 people who signed the petition never wrote a mod, or has not done something YOU think "qualifies" them to giver their opinion. They still get to give it.

 

Of course Bethesda is under no obligation to listen to their customers. In this case they did. They probably also realized what a Hiroshima-type disaster this was, and if they were smart, fired the individual(s) responsible for this abortion of creativity.

wulfharth wrote: If Bethesda wanted to be tyrants, they probably wouldn't have out of pocketed to provide and update the creation kit. And that's just for the PC gamers mind you. That is a special gift just to us that is more valuable than any 10 mods on here. You should feel loved and have more faith in them.

wulfharth wrote: Vesuvius-You are Bethesda's customer. Not mine. I don't want your made up resume. All I know is that you haven't posted a single mod. You aren't a modder. Why are you telling us what we can do with our work?

Reaper0021 wrote: It's not about lack of love or faith. It's about common business practices. A business remains a business as long as it can "TURN A PROFIT" and when it can't no longer (ATARI, Commodore, SEGA, etc.) then it stops becoming a business and becomes a share holders nightmare. All of this is just theory talk...but in the back of my mind I remain cautious about what the future holds.

thefinn wrote: Totally agree, if I were going to have love or faith (without going to church) it'd be in the Nexus, not some new system Valve has talked Bethesda into.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I, nor anybody else, is telling mod authors what they can or cannot do with their "work". As Bethesda's customers, we explained to them we did not want a pay-for paradigm for mods. We gave our opinion, which as customers we have every right to give. They didn't have to listen to their customers, but they did. Since Bethesda owns the Intellectual property rights to Skyrim, and mod authors sign their EULA accepting their contract, it is Bethesda who gets to tell mod authors what they can or cannot do with their derivative creations. If a mod author is upset by that, then they should take it up with Bethesda. Or mod for a game that allows paid-for mods. Whining about it here, or getting upset with the people who bought Skyrim and gave their opinion, is not going to be fruitful.

Reaper0021 wrote: And to continue on this point by Vesuvius1745....when I give my $$$$ for anything in this world be it new tires, PC parts, cable T.V./internet, books, food, games, music, etc. I HAVE the right as a paying customer to offer my critique or displeasure or ANYTHING with what I paid for if it doesn't meet my expectations as a customer. I don't have to be a tire manufacturer to offer my opinion that I like Firestone better than the other brands. You make no sense man in your argument. You act as if we are indebted to Bethesda and I can assure you it's the other way around. Kudos given to Vesuvius1745.

crashpilot wrote: @Wulfharth,

 

Since there is not that much of your work you have to worry about, I would say let us our opinion and we let you yours.

Pauliwhop wrote: You don't have to be a doctor to sue for Malpractice. Try again.

treota wrote: "All I know is that you haven't posted a single mod, so you are not a modder" - This is basically the same as telling a carpenter they aren't valid because they have never carved mahogany, who is to say that he has never contributed anything to any modding scene for any game ever created or even created content that he didn't feel like uploading.

 

More close to home telling a critic that their opinion is worthless because they have never done what they critique (which is pretty common).

 

I'm 99% sure that there are plenty of food critics for example that have never been professional chefs.

thefinn wrote: The fact that your chair is made of wood, doesn't make you a carpenter.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing."

 

Nicholas Butler

treota wrote: The carpenter idea was based on the person having modded something at some point in their life which is probably (not always of course) the case if said person has a keen interest in modding.

 

Being a creator does not make your opinion more or less valid than your consumer. :smile:

oldnotweak wrote: we need a block function so every mod author can block Vesuvius and people like him

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Oldnottweak It would be easier to just take all your mods off the Nexus, otherwise you will have to block about aprox. 133,000+ people (the number of people who signed that petition given to Bethesda).

 

And since we are blocking people who think differently than us, then maybe the "Forever Free" modders will block YOU from all of their mods, and the programmers of ENB, SKSE, Wyre Bash, and every other utility you've benefited from can block your IP so you can no longer download their stuff.

 

It can be a giant block festival. Wouldn't that be fun?

Ghatto wrote: Oh yeah that wouldn't go horribly wrong now would it?

thefinn wrote: Being a creator doesn't make my opinion more valid than my consumer regarding the mod sure.

 

However, being the creator makes my opinion more valid than my consumer regarding the system by which I make (or not) money off my creation.

 

Otherwise we'd be looking at a society where we had no money at all.

Noone would ever want to pay for anything and that'd be it.

 

So obviously the people at say Mattel decide that they are gonna charge money for their s***.

 

Your opinion on that matter ... doesn't matter. Where there's money to be made - corporations go.

 

At this point paid modding will be coming in. There's little doubt of that.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-05-01-sooner-or-later-paid-for-mods-are-coming

 

The only question remains "how?" and "when?"

 

The system itself is important, and if people want to enter a discussion saying "there shouldn't be a system" they are just gonna be ignored by I'd have to say - the large majority of modders and likely valve too. Expect it.

 

From Gabe's comments he's aware of the fact they screwed up by using Skyrim as the entry point for this change in the platform on steam. This probably means there will be years before we see a Bethesda game take on paid modding. (Fallout IV or TES VI most likely).

 

The issue remains will it start to encroach on the nexus, will it stifle modding ?!

 

Will the word "modding" merely change meaning - like so many other things do over time (and usually not for the better).

 

For instance what happens if the Unofficial Skyrim Patch goes paid ?

 

HEAPS of other modders have to change their mods (Through TESVEdit) to encompass changes in USP each time Arthmoor updates it. Otherwise their mods overwrite his changes.

 

Do they have to pay for USP ? That seems like a fairly central issue too - dependencies.

 

There are still a lot of question for Bethesda imo.

I'm not sure if I'm for or against the whole idea.

Ghatto wrote: I disagree. I don't see why my opinion shouldn't retain value simply because it criticises the system as a whole and makes clear my desire to go without it. I understand how it positions myself in the argument as 'either/or' rather than compromise but that's that. Yes it's a see-saw that goes both ways; government policy has been that decisive for generations and we could all benefit on compromise there, but unfortunately that still doesn't work because it then creates a new 'either/or' which is instead a 'enjoy compromise/suffer compromise'.

Tyerial12 wrote: problem is we know its comming but mod authors better be aware pirates will come as well.

 

Someone will buy your mod then release it on free sites anonomsly and bam free mod

WightMage wrote: Have we really come to this?

treota wrote: @thefinn

I agree with pretty much everything there, however the consumer does vastly dictate the payment platform. If consumers disagree with the way said creators make money then they will not spend their money there and the creator will have no choice but to try a different way of making money. (for the record I totally agree paid mods are here to stay, nothing to be done about it now)

 

Which is where the somewhat wrong saying comes from "the customer is always right". (yeah I hate that crap too, worked in retail for a few years and that line just grinds the gears) It is true in the sense that if the customer disagrees then your job and livelihood is down the drain.

 

Any opinion is the same value as any other opinion, it's the person who decides which opinions are more or less valid to them personally.

wulfharth wrote: @crashpilot- Good morning. I had a lot more up, but I pulled them down because the community showed how appreciative it is. I'm re-working most of it to release when paid mods come back. Which will probably be with TES6. If you check the credits in the top 20 file "Immersive Weapons", you will see that I made that entire dragonbone weapon set. You've likely been using my weapons for years.

 

I've pulled everything down. The more our community shows it's true colors, the more mod authors will follow suit.

Tyerial12 wrote: @wulfharth lol oh well then guess we dont see your mods for free it dont bother me one bit.. Ill give my money to non chilish mod authors

np11 wrote: @wulfharth Good PR there, I'd love to see how many people who've actually seen you post will buy these fabled mods.

 

People, before you start selling things, you should really take some business, marketing or even psychology classes. Addressing potential customers like that and expecting your business to flourish... Good luck with that.

Tanesis12 wrote: @ Vesuvius1745 I think that paid mods will be on the next Beth game, whether TES or FO. I don't think however it will imact quality as that would be a second pr disaster that Beth don't need.

 

@ thefinn "They can make the game so that when it runs it only allows mods that steam downloaded."

 

I think that Beth would want more control over modding in general if theres money involved. If only 1 site was allowed to run paid mods then mod authors would obviously prefere that site if they directly benefitted (I think?).

 

Incorporation of real life monies will change the way people use mods drasitcally and alter the relationship between mod author and mod consumer, the later who is now a customer (who should be able to expect certain consumer rights but thats a different issue). I can't help but feel that when, rather than if, mods become paid the only real winners will be Beth & Valve.

 

Also good posts thefinn, nicely insightful.

3AMt wrote: Horse armors, swords and hats for 1.99 each for everyone. Yeah have fun selling mods.

Brasscatcher wrote: I do try to avoid name calling, but I will call stupid behavior what it is. Most of this thread is full of stupid. Go ahead, accept Bethesda's offer. I bet every single one of you won't see a single bit of useful profit from anything you create. If you think trash-talking or belittling part of the community, or attempting to invalidate the opinions of one part of the community will net you anything, you are incorrect.

 

 

Stop being stupid. Be productive instead.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Wulfharth

 

You should toughen your emotional "skin" if you want to stay in the modders community.

People like vesuvius will ALWAYS have DEMANDS, stupid and irrelevant for you.

 

Because THAT is what he want to smoke screen behind his fancy words and pseudo arguments, his pitiful demands.

 

Hi have paid for Skyrim game? ... good for him.

But he HAD NOT paid for YOUR or ANYONE mod, he could comment as long as he wish about Skyrim but when talking about your mods, your acts and your decisions, he's pure and simple hypocrite.

 

Again, if you paid for Skyrim

fru1tcak3s wrote: > charging for the Creation Kit

 

Open source creation kit :tongue:

wulfharth wrote: I don't need to have good PR with people who think they deserve everything for free. That's a pretty crappy customer base to build.

 

I'm moving on to another mod community. This one will be dead fairly soon. Be well all. I wish you all the luck in the world.

Brasscatcher wrote: Well...bye! :smile:

thefinn wrote: Yeah tend to agree, I think TB/Dark0ne/Brumbek say it best here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5aavBAplp5A#t=4867

 

If you're just downloading and not contributing, not a forum user, not even hitting the endorse button - then who cares what your opinion is? It's only going to be the usual kinds of self-serving entitled crap that we see everywhere else on the net.

np11 wrote: @wulfharth How crappy the customer base is is irrelevant. You want their money and you want to make a profit. That's all a business needs to know. If your customers are becoming a huge bother, you can deny them services, but you need to do so as politely as possible. The moment you start bickering and being aggressive to your customers, you've lost the game. Look at Valve and Bethesda's responses for god's sake. You'll get a feel of what a professional response should be like.

 

Well, have fun and good luck then.

WightMage wrote: @np11

 

As someone who works in customer service and has their own business on the side, I could not agree more.

Tyerial12 wrote: @wulfharth

 

For one i dont believe or want everything FREE i want a fair and working system that makes sure when we BUY A MOD that it works as it should and if it dosent we get more than one day for a refund or a way to contact the mod author if we want a fix. Prob is if a mod author just quits doing it means NOW the user is stuck with a broken mod.

 

also people are going to charge WAY to much for a mod that just adds one item or changes a couple textures. there needs to be a limit on this

 

But with the way your acting good luck on your future bussiness practices

hector530 wrote: "I, nor anybody else, is telling mod authors what they can or cannot do with their "work""

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA good one

Hey! - My self-serving entitled crap is special. I have a sixth grade award somewhere that proves it. Blue ribbon and everything. When I saw the news about mods I figured "oh well, I'll decide which of these are actually worth paying for and which are just nice". When I saw the business arrangement I thought "They're turning these people into contract labor without incurring any associated overhead. I hope some of them are smart enough to run this by their lawyers". If you are running a small business (which is essentially what you will be doing under the paid mods model) always have an accountant and a lawyer on retainer. It's not expensive for what you get. The more I read, with the policies they were putting into place and the vitriol from some users, the more I became of the opinion that modders were getting screwed by both sides without the courtesy of a kiss or reach around. With the exception of a couple that I would happily trip with one of my canes because their egos seem out-sized, I do have sympathy for them.

 

As a user (I can't mod for shite) I understand that I have been getting something that the creators have chosen to share and I thank them for it. I do not however think that negates my opinion because the relationship between the two groups is symbiotic. I see this as a poorly executed trial balloon by Valve and Bethesda. Paid mods will be back with FO4 or TES6 but they will have put a lot more thought into it than they did this time around.

 

Kudos!

[Kregen]

just an idea if a modder wants to make a mod with large costs involved, profesional voice actors or other stuff which I am not quallified to suggest as I have zero knowledge of modding. would not some kind of crowed funding model not be a good idea. If the modder is established and has prooved his/her compitence I am sure that the response would be possitive.

[bullpcp]

Trigger warning: This post is about perspective and relative importance. This may caused those with over-inflated senses of self importance to feel fear, anxiety, rage, or other negative emotions and lash out uncontrollably at those that have triggered them.

 

I love mods and i know it is easy to lose perspective being part of a modding community but the reality is... the modding community is simply not that important to the success of Bethesda's games or their bottom line.

 

According to Bethesda only about 8% of Skyrim players have ever used even a single mod and that less than 1% have ever created one. Given that the majority of those that have used mods would still have purchased and played Skyrim without mods this leaves well less than 4% of their sales in some way dependent on the modding community.

 

For the fraction of the 8% of mod users against paid for mods, and would never pay for mods if available, you aren't even potential customers and aren't terribly relevant to Bethesda's business decisions. Bethesda decisions about paid for mods also have to take into account the other 92%+ of Skyrim players that have never used a mod and to the other fraction of 8% that that are potential customers of paid for mods. Together they comprise well over 92% of their customers.

 

The VAST majority of Bethesda's customers are not part of the modding community. This community, both for and against paid for modding, is a very small minority of Skyrim players.

 

Some here have completely lost perspective on their relative importance to the success of Bethesda. Some have claimed, against all evidence, that Bethesda's success is somehow dependent upon mods and modding in general. This does not empirically seem to be the case.

 

Even if all who oppose paid for mods boycotted Bethesda they would see, at most, a few percent drop in sales of their game. A drop that may very well be more than made up for with increases in revenue from mods and those that may very well purchase their game due to the ease of use and easy availability of paid for mods.

[Vesuvius1745]

In response to post #24941974.

sunshinenbrick wrote:

 

In response to post #24873139. #24874159, #24874314, #24874474, #24874519, #24874634, #24874639, #24874729, #24874774, #24874924, #24874984, #24875019, #24875044, #24875074, #24875124, #24875219, #24875289, #24875334, #24875454, #24875484, #24875669, #24876774, #24876829, #24877709, #24877889, #24877969, #24878254, #24878299, #24878569, #24878604, #24878759, #24879069, #24879579, #24879589, #24882059, #24884249, #24885029, #24885084, #24885349, #24885354, #24885399, #24885969, #24885999, #24887819, #24887979, #24888049, #24888949, #24889684, #24891174, #24938644 are all replies on the same post.

thefinn wrote: I doubt they will drop this.

They will do more research than smoking some doobies in the coffee lounge at valve and saying "You know what would be cool ?" then we'll see something similar coming up again in the future.

There's way too much money involved for this to go away.

Personally, if they'd just add a "donate" button and not try to "sell mods" that might go down better.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: With the next TES game, I could see them charging for the Creation Kit, and then setting it so you have to "share" your mods on a specific website they control, and then charging people a flat-access rate to the website.

Oh, and I can see them releasing the next TES game even more incomplete than Skyrim. Release a barebones game, make money off it, then let the modders finish your game, and make money off of that too. I bet I've just given some pencil pusher at Bethesda a 3-inch erection.

wulfharth wrote: That's called an alpha release, and that happens everyday.

Bethesda has always tried hard to keep everyone happy (except with the exclusive DLC period releases). They just wanted to give people who make mods a chance to do it for a living. Shame on them for creating jobs and stimulating the mod community. They should all kill themselves. Right? Should I make a sign protest mod about them offering opportunity?

How do I block this guy? The option isn't at the bottom of his posts.

wulfharth wrote: Ha! I found out where to do it, but I can't block you Vesuvius1745 because you've never contributed a mod, so you aren't listed as an author.

So why again do you feel you have the right to have an opinion on what actual mod contributor's are allowed to do with their mods? You aren't even one of us.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, my mistake. I didn't realize the corporation known as Bethesda was being altruistic, and just wanted to stimulate the economy while at the same time giving amateur mod authors their Big Break. You're not only a glass-is-half-full kind of guy, you're a glass-is-half-full when it's actually empty kind of guy.

Instead of trying to make a buck off of mod authors, they should concentrate on making sure the next TES release is stable and complete. Yes, game companies are releasing their games earlier and earlier, and frankly, many gamers are sick of paying to Beta test unfinished products.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Good question, wulth. As someone who paid for Skyrim, I have the same right as the 133,000+ other people who signed the petition given to Bethesda telling them what we thought of this pay-for system.

I suspect the pencil pusher who came up with this idea is probably shaking in his boots. Wondering if he will have a job next month. Maybe he's even trolling these forums to test the waters, and not liking what he is seeing.

thefinn wrote: Well I am a pretty harsh critic of games, I think Skyrim is one of the best I've played in years.

There might've been some bugs at launch, but few are the games you'll find without them and frankly with the size of Skyrim they are to be expected.

I don't see how it was "incomplete".

wulfharth wrote: @Vesuvius-Instead of telling super successful multi-million dollar corporations with giant and loyal fan bases how to run their businesses, you should go try and make a dungeon or create and add a custom 3D model. I'm sure you'll change your tune very quickly.

You have no frame of reference for what it means or takes to be a mod author. Stop telling everyone what to do or what they should do. You aren't qualified.

thefinn wrote: The difference being that the question for you is "Can I still get free stuff?" while the question for modders is "Is this a system I find reasonable to work with?"

The only saving grace to me was the thought that perhaps I should start putting together my feminine walk mod again to be paid for, or to be the free alternative to the other mod of its' kind. It actually made me think this (for the very small mods I have done) it was in fact my first thought.

So it can indeed instill the impetus in modders to mod.

However, the drawbacks of the current idea are awful.

It leaves the door open for game companies to make mods "steam only" in the future for benefits to the bottom line for instance.

wulfharth wrote: The official paid DLC is Steam only. Why not the smaller not official but sanctioned DLC? We always have the Nexus if modders want to choose to throw up an donate button to not get pressed and give free work to the sweet and loving community.

thefinn wrote: You're missing the point.

They can make the game so that when it runs it only allows mods that steam downloaded.

And they would be...
1) In their rights to do so.
2) getting more profits by doing so and they are corporations you know?

Reaper0021 wrote: thefinn is right in that regard. IF THEY WANTED to be tyrannical about it that is.

thefinn wrote: And when have you known corporations not to be ?

DRM itself had huge backlash at the time... but here it is still.

Reaper0021 wrote: I agree with you thefinn. I'll tell you one that isn't and I defy you to say otherwise: CDProjekt Red. But in all aspects of this you're 100% right.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Wulf, your ad hominem aside, I'm not going to post my resume because it's irrelevant. Every person who bought Skyrim (they are called customers) have an absolute right to tell Bethesda what they think of their business practices. It doesn't matter if not a single one of those 133,000 people who signed the petition never wrote a mod, or has not done something YOU think "qualifies" them to giver their opinion. They still get to give it.

Of course Bethesda is under no obligation to listen to their customers. In this case they did. They probably also realized what a Hiroshima-type disaster this was, and if they were smart, fired the individual(s) responsible for this abortion of creativity.

wulfharth wrote: If Bethesda wanted to be tyrants, they probably wouldn't have out of pocketed to provide and update the creation kit. And that's just for the PC gamers mind you. That is a special gift just to us that is more valuable than any 10 mods on here. You should feel loved and have more faith in them.

wulfharth wrote: Vesuvius-You are Bethesda's customer. Not mine. I don't want your made up resume. All I know is that you haven't posted a single mod. You aren't a modder. Why are you telling us what we can do with our work?

Reaper0021 wrote: It's not about lack of love or faith. It's about common business practices. A business remains a business as long as it can "TURN A PROFIT" and when it can't no longer (ATARI, Commodore, SEGA, etc.) then it stops becoming a business and becomes a share holders nightmare. All of this is just theory talk...but in the back of my mind I remain cautious about what the future holds.

thefinn wrote: Totally agree, if I were going to have love or faith (without going to church) it'd be in the Nexus, not some new system Valve has talked Bethesda into.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I, nor anybody else, is telling mod authors what they can or cannot do with their "work". As Bethesda's customers, we explained to them we did not want a pay-for paradigm for mods. We gave our opinion, which as customers we have every right to give. They didn't have to listen to their customers, but they did. Since Bethesda owns the Intellectual property rights to Skyrim, and mod authors sign their EULA accepting their contract, it is Bethesda who gets to tell mod authors what they can or cannot do with their derivative creations. If a mod author is upset by that, then they should take it up with Bethesda. Or mod for a game that allows paid-for mods. Whining about it here, or getting upset with the people who bought Skyrim and gave their opinion, is not going to be fruitful.

Reaper0021 wrote: And to continue on this point by Vesuvius1745....when I give my $$$$ for anything in this world be it new tires, PC parts, cable T.V./internet, books, food, games, music, etc. I HAVE the right as a paying customer to offer my critique or displeasure or ANYTHING with what I paid for if it doesn't meet my expectations as a customer. I don't have to be a tire manufacturer to offer my opinion that I like Firestone better than the other brands. You make no sense man in your argument. You act as if we are indebted to Bethesda and I can assure you it's the other way around. Kudos given to Vesuvius1745.

crashpilot wrote: @Wulfharth,

Since there is not that much of your work you have to worry about, I would say let us our opinion and we let you yours.

Pauliwhop wrote: You don't have to be a doctor to sue for Malpractice. Try again.

treota wrote: "All I know is that you haven't posted a single mod, so you are not a modder" - This is basically the same as telling a carpenter they aren't valid because they have never carved mahogany, who is to say that he has never contributed anything to any modding scene for any game ever created or even created content that he didn't feel like uploading.

More close to home telling a critic that their opinion is worthless because they have never done what they critique (which is pretty common).

I'm 99% sure that there are plenty of food critics for example that have never been professional chefs.

thefinn wrote: The fact that your chair is made of wood, doesn't make you a carpenter.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing."

Nicholas Butler

treota wrote: The carpenter idea was based on the person having modded something at some point in their life which is probably (not always of course) the case if said person has a keen interest in modding.

Being a creator does not make your opinion more or less valid than your consumer. :smile:

oldnotweak wrote: we need a block function so every mod author can block Vesuvius and people like him

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Oldnottweak It would be easier to just take all your mods off the Nexus, otherwise you will have to block about aprox. 133,000+ people (the number of people who signed that petition given to Bethesda).

And since we are blocking people who think differently than us, then maybe the "Forever Free" modders will block YOU from all of their mods, and the programmers of ENB, SKSE, Wyre Bash, and every other utility you've benefited from can block your IP so you can no longer download their stuff.

It can be a giant block festival. Wouldn't that be fun?

Ghatto wrote: Oh yeah that wouldn't go horribly wrong now would it?

thefinn wrote: Being a creator doesn't make my opinion more valid than my consumer regarding the mod sure.

However, being the creator makes my opinion more valid than my consumer regarding the system by which I make (or not) money off my creation.

Otherwise we'd be looking at a society where we had no money at all.
Noone would ever want to pay for anything and that'd be it.

So obviously the people at say Mattel decide that they are gonna charge money for their s***.

Your opinion on that matter ... doesn't matter. Where there's money to be made - corporations go.

At this point paid modding will be coming in. There's little doubt of that.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-05-01-sooner-or-later-paid-for-mods-are-coming

The only question remains "how?" and "when?"

The system itself is important, and if people want to enter a discussion saying "there shouldn't be a system" they are just gonna be ignored by I'd have to say - the large majority of modders and likely valve too. Expect it.

From Gabe's comments he's aware of the fact they screwed up by using Skyrim as the entry point for this change in the platform on steam. This probably means there will be years before we see a Bethesda game take on paid modding. (Fallout IV or TES VI most likely).

The issue remains will it start to encroach on the nexus, will it stifle modding ?!

Will the word "modding" merely change meaning - like so many other things do over time (and usually not for the better).

For instance what happens if the Unofficial Skyrim Patch goes paid ?

HEAPS of other modders have to change their mods (Through TESVEdit) to encompass changes in USP each time Arthmoor updates it. Otherwise their mods overwrite his changes.

Do they have to pay for USP ? That seems like a fairly central issue too - dependencies.

There are still a lot of question for Bethesda imo.
I'm not sure if I'm for or against the whole idea.

Ghatto wrote: I disagree. I don't see why my opinion shouldn't retain value simply because it criticises the system as a whole and makes clear my desire to go without it. I understand how it positions myself in the argument as 'either/or' rather than compromise but that's that. Yes it's a see-saw that goes both ways; government policy has been that decisive for generations and we could all benefit on compromise there, but unfortunately that still doesn't work because it then creates a new 'either/or' which is instead a 'enjoy compromise/suffer compromise'.

Tyerial12 wrote: problem is we know its comming but mod authors better be aware pirates will come as well.

Someone will buy your mod then release it on free sites anonomsly and bam free mod

WightMage wrote: Have we really come to this?

treota wrote: @thefinn
I agree with pretty much everything there, however the consumer does vastly dictate the payment platform. If consumers disagree with the way said creators make money then they will not spend their money there and the creator will have no choice but to try a different way of making money. (for the record I totally agree paid mods are here to stay, nothing to be done about it now)

Which is where the somewhat wrong saying comes from "the customer is always right". (yeah I hate that crap too, worked in retail for a few years and that line just grinds the gears) It is true in the sense that if the customer disagrees then your job and livelihood is down the drain.

Any opinion is the same value as any other opinion, it's the person who decides which opinions are more or less valid to them personally.

wulfharth wrote: @crashpilot- Good morning. I had a lot more up, but I pulled them down because the community showed how appreciative it is. I'm re-working most of it to release when paid mods come back. Which will probably be with TES6. If you check the credits in the top 20 file "Immersive Weapons", you will see that I made that entire dragonbone weapon set. You've likely been using my weapons for years.

I've pulled everything down. The more our community shows it's true colors, the more mod authors will follow suit.

Tyerial12 wrote: @wulfharth lol oh well then guess we dont see your mods for free it dont bother me one bit.. Ill give my money to non chilish mod authors

np11 wrote: @wulfharth Good PR there, I'd love to see how many people who've actually seen you post will buy these fabled mods.

People, before you start selling things, you should really take some business, marketing or even psychology classes. Addressing potential customers like that and expecting your business to flourish... Good luck with that.

Tanesis12 wrote: @ Vesuvius1745 I think that paid mods will be on the next Beth game, whether TES or FO. I don't think however it will imact quality as that would be a second pr disaster that Beth don't need.

@ thefinn "They can make the game so that when it runs it only allows mods that steam downloaded."

I think that Beth would want more control over modding in general if theres money involved. If only 1 site was allowed to run paid mods then mod authors would obviously prefere that site if they directly benefitted (I think?).

Incorporation of real life monies will change the way people use mods drasitcally and alter the relationship between mod author and mod consumer, the later who is now a customer (who should be able to expect certain consumer rights but thats a different issue). I can't help but feel that when, rather than if, mods become paid the only real winners will be Beth & Valve.

Also good posts thefinn, nicely insightful.

3AMt wrote: Horse armors, swords and hats for 1.99 each for everyone. Yeah have fun selling mods.

Brasscatcher wrote: I do try to avoid name calling, but I will call stupid behavior what it is. Most of this thread is full of stupid. Go ahead, accept Bethesda's offer. I bet every single one of you won't see a single bit of useful profit from anything you create. If you think trash-talking or belittling part of the community, or attempting to invalidate the opinions of one part of the community will net you anything, you are incorrect.


Stop being stupid. Be productive instead.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Wulfharth

You should toughen your emotional "skin" if you want to stay in the modders community.
People like vesuvius will ALWAYS have DEMANDS, stupid and irrelevant for you.

Because THAT is what he want to smoke screen behind his fancy words and pseudo arguments, his pitiful demands.

Hi have paid for Skyrim game? ... good for him.
But he HAD NOT paid for YOUR or ANYONE mod, he could comment as long as he wish about Skyrim but when talking about your mods, your acts and your decisions, he's pure and simple hypocrite.

Again, if you paid for Skyrim

fru1tcak3s wrote: > charging for the Creation Kit

Open source creation kit :tongue:

wulfharth wrote: I don't need to have good PR with people who think they deserve everything for free. That's a pretty crappy customer base to build.

I'm moving on to another mod community. This one will be dead fairly soon. Be well all. I wish you all the luck in the world.

Brasscatcher wrote: Well...bye! :smile:

thefinn wrote: Yeah tend to agree, I think TB/Dark0ne/Brumbek say it best here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5aavBAplp5A#t=4867

If you're just downloading and not contributing, not a forum user, not even hitting the endorse button - then who cares what your opinion is? It's only going to be the usual kinds of self-serving entitled crap that we see everywhere else on the net.

np11 wrote: @wulfharth How crappy the customer base is is irrelevant. You want their money and you want to make a profit. That's all a business needs to know. If your customers are becoming a huge bother, you can deny them services, but you need to do so as politely as possible. The moment you start bickering and being aggressive to your customers, you've lost the game. Look at Valve and Bethesda's responses for god's sake. You'll get a feel of what a professional response should be like.

Well, have fun and good luck then.

WightMage wrote: @np11

As someone who works in customer service and has their own business on the side, I could not agree more.

Tyerial12 wrote: @wulfharth

For one i dont believe or want everything FREE i want a fair and working system that makes sure when we BUY A MOD that it works as it should and if it dosent we get more than one day for a refund or a way to contact the mod author if we want a fix. Prob is if a mod author just quits doing it means NOW the user is stuck with a broken mod.

also people are going to charge WAY to much for a mod that just adds one item or changes a couple textures. there needs to be a limit on this

But with the way your acting good luck on your future bussiness practices

hector530 wrote: "I, nor anybody else, is telling mod authors what they can or cannot do with their "work""

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA good one

Hey! - My self-serving entitled crap is special. I have a sixth grade award somewhere that proves it. Blue ribbon and everything. When I saw the news about mods I figured "oh well, I'll decide which of these are actually worth paying for and which are just nice". When I saw the business arrangement I thought "They're turning these people into contract labor without incurring any associated overhead. I hope some of them are smart enough to run this by their lawyers". If you are running a small business (which is essentially what you will be doing under the paid mods model) always have an accountant and a lawyer on retainer. It's not expensive for what you get. The more I read, with the policies they were putting into place and the vitriol from some users, the more I became of the opinion that modders were getting screwed by both sides without the courtesy of a kiss or reach around. With the exception of a couple that I would happily trip with one of my canes because their egos seem out-sized, I do have sympathy for them.

As a user (I can't mod for shite) I understand that I have been getting something that the creators have chosen to share and I thank them for it. I do not however think that negates my opinion because the relationship between the two groups is symbiotic. I see this as a poorly executed trial balloon by Valve and Bethesda. Paid mods will be back with FO4 or TES6 but they will have put a lot more thought into it than they did this time around.

 

Kudos!

lol nice

[bullpcp]

I'm a bit surprised that those that correctly point out that Bethesda is a business trying to make a profit don't seem to think that Bethesda would massage the modding communities collective sense of importance in order to make a few extra percent profit. I'm not stating that Bethesda is doing this, only that the possibility exists. Being nice to your customers is important but, beware of those tell you how very important you are, how special you are, how much they need you, and then ask for your money. I'm actually pro Bethesda but the entire community only comprises a few percent of their customers. Financially we are only of marginal importance.

[Vesuvius1745]

In response to post #24942159.

bullpcp wrote: Trigger warning: This post is about perspective and relative importance. This may caused those with over-inflated senses of self importance to feel fear, anxiety, rage, or other negative emotions and lash out uncontrollably at those that have triggered them.

I love mods and i know it is easy to lose perspective being part of a modding community but the reality is... the modding community is simply not that important to the success of Bethesda's games or their bottom line.

According to Bethesda only about 8% of Skyrim players have ever used even a single mod and that less than 1% have ever created one. Given that the majority of those that have used mods would still have purchased and played Skyrim without mods this leaves well less than 4% of their sales in some way dependent on the modding community.

For the fraction of the 8% of mod users against paid for mods, and would never pay for mods if available, you aren't even potential customers and aren't terribly relevant to Bethesda's business decisions. Bethesda decisions about paid for mods also have to take into account the other 92%+ of Skyrim players that have never used a mod and to the other fraction of 8% that that are potential customers of paid for mods. Together they comprise well over 92% of their customers.

The VAST majority of Bethesda's customers are not part of the modding community. This community, both for and against paid for modding, is a very small minority of Skyrim players.

Some here have completely lost perspective on their relative importance to the success of Bethesda. Some have claimed, against all evidence, that Bethesda's success is somehow dependent upon mods and modding in general. This does not empirically seem to be the case.

Even if all who oppose paid for mods boycotted Bethesda they would see, at most, a few percent drop in sales of their game. A drop that may very well be more than made up for with increases in revenue from mods and those that may very well purchase their game due to the ease of use and easy availability of paid for mods.

And where is Bethesda getting the info that only 8% of people have ever used a mod? How would they know that? Even if they are counting console users with that equation (many of whom ended up buying Skyrim on the PC as well), I find that percentage hard to believe. Are they just going by Steam data? Just looking at the tens of millions of unique downloads on this site alone makes me think the same pencil pusher who came up with that figure is probably the same one who made the Hiroshima-style miscalculation with this pay-for rollout. They need to fire the individual(s) responsible for this abortion of creativity, and because they can't do math.

[WightMage]

In response to post #24925259. #24926814, #24940699 are all replies on the same post.

lesliewifeofbath wrote: Sir, your position on donations sicken me as I saw you kick off fantastic mod (Skyrim Romance) just few months ago for just asking for donations. I see nothing wrong with that, especially since it was a very complex mod that required voice actors.

I think you need to get a grip, stop complaining and come up with a reasonable policy regarding donations.

And no, I'm not author of any mod, lest you try and ban me too.

Trollkins wrote: What? The authors tried to start a $50,000 Kickstarter for their mod. Even they admitted it was misguided and against Betheda's T&Cs.

I think with all the horrible events going on in the world you need to take a step back, get some perspective and work out what really 'sickens' you.

phantompally76 wrote: It's a legitimate comparison. Several of the mod authors who are whining about not being able to make money off mods RIGHT NOW were active participants in the public witch hunt that brought down Mara. That's one of the reasons I have absolutely zero sympathy for them. They are hypocrites, through and through. ESPECIALLY when one considers that 80% of those paid mods were still in early development, and those authors were asking for money to develop them further....which is exactly what Mara was doing. Furthermore, at least 12 of them piggybacked assets from other mods, and 5 of them ripped assets from other games entirely, and in their eyes that was GROSSLY immoral and enraging when Mara did it.....but it was perfectly acceptable when they did it.

No, if anyone deserves to be completely smug and haughty towards the entire modding community right now, it's Mara. I like to think she is maniacally cackling with glee as the modding community continues to devour its own tail. But in reality, she's probably not even that kind of person, and is just as saddened by this turn of events as the rest of us.

I'm not saying what she did was right or justifiable. I'm simply pointing out that a very large percentage of this community who persecuted and condemned her are now shamelessly and unrepentantly guilty of the same turpitude. And THAT is the underlying problem with this community.

TL;DR: Not a single advocate for the monetization of amateur modding has a moral/ethical/critical leg to stand on when it comes to Mara and the Skyrim Romance Mod, and any attempt to dismiss the parallels with that situation is ignorant hypocrisy at its very core.

They got kicked off the Nexus? Now I have a sad, as well. :'(

Though to be fair, the Romance Mod, despite being awesome and well made, used too many assets in addition to the fact its a Skyrim mod at the end of the day. Running a Kickstarter like that is just asking for trouble.

Honestly, the Nexus would have probably had to remove the mod just to save themselves the possible liabilities involved.

[Vesuvius1745]

In response to post #24925259. #24926814, #24940699, #24942334 are all replies on the same post.

lesliewifeofbath wrote: Sir, your position on donations sicken me as I saw you kick off fantastic mod (Skyrim Romance) just few months ago for just asking for donations. I see nothing wrong with that, especially since it was a very complex mod that required voice actors.

I think you need to get a grip, stop complaining and come up with a reasonable policy regarding donations.

And no, I'm not author of any mod, lest you try and ban me too.

Trollkins wrote: What? The authors tried to start a $50,000 Kickstarter for their mod. Even they admitted it was misguided and against Betheda's T&Cs.

I think with all the horrible events going on in the world you need to take a step back, get some perspective and work out what really 'sickens' you.

phantompally76 wrote: It's a legitimate comparison. Several of the mod authors who are whining about not being able to make money off mods RIGHT NOW were active participants in the public witch hunt that brought down Mara. That's one of the reasons I have absolutely zero sympathy for them. They are hypocrites, through and through. ESPECIALLY when one considers that 80% of those paid mods were still in early development, and those authors were asking for money to develop them further....which is exactly what Mara was doing. Furthermore, at least 12 of them piggybacked assets from other mods, and 5 of them ripped assets from other games entirely, and in their eyes that was GROSSLY immoral and enraging when Mara did it.....but it was perfectly acceptable when they did it.

No, if anyone deserves to be completely smug and haughty towards the entire modding community right now, it's Mara. I like to think she is maniacally cackling with glee as the modding community continues to devour its own tail. But in reality, she's probably not even that kind of person, and is just as saddened by this turn of events as the rest of us.

I'm not saying what she did was right or justifiable. I'm simply pointing out that a very large percentage of this community who persecuted and condemned her are now shamelessly and unrepentantly guilty of the same turpitude. And THAT is the underlying problem with this community.

TL;DR: Not a single advocate for the monetization of amateur modding has a moral/ethical/critical leg to stand on when it comes to Mara and the Skyrim Romance Mod, and any attempt to dismiss the parallels with that situation is ignorant hypocrisy at its very core.

WightMage wrote: They got kicked off the Nexus? Now I have a sad, as well. :'(

Though to be fair, the Romance Mod, despite being awesome and well made, used too many assets in addition to the fact its a Skyrim mod at the end of the day. Running a Kickstarter like that is just asking for trouble.

Honestly, the Nexus would have probably had to remove the mod just to save themselves the possible liabilities involved.

The dude should have asked Bethesda for permission. It's not out of the realm of possibility that they would have worked something out.

[WightMage]

In response to post #24936654.

sunshinenbrick wrote:

 

In response to post #24930654. #24931014, #24933594 are all replies on the same post.

pleasenoname wrote: I listened to the entire 2 hour Total Biscuit interview. Saw it posted on
steam. Shared is with several people 3 or so days ago. I have read nearly
every major discussion that occured during the controversy. I am one of
the few people who can claim neutrality, because I was busy at the time.

I contacted the guy who made SkyUI a few weeks before what I will refer
to henceforth as the, "Modpocalypse 2015". I was hoping he could give me
some tips on inserting SVG graphics I made into the game map/menu. I
was going ahead on researching how to do it myself, his help would have
sped up the process considerably though.

So I went up to the mountain top to work on the problem myself in
isolation. At the same time I was putting together another computer. I
diligently learned about the menu system from fragmentary sources. Some
Bethesda programmer from 2011 in posts said that he could talk about a
limited set of things regarding it(meaning the menu system is DRM-ified).
The menus are in flash format and some are in Scaleform flash format,
which in my opinion is DRM encryption.

I found a decompiler needed to access the content of the flash files.
Unfortunately I had to change my Java setting to run through my browser
to the decompiler in an unsecure way. More on that later

The next problem was that I needed to recompile my art into the files.
So long story short I had to download the Unreal engine to use it to
interact with the scaleform DRM flashform. O, what is this though? I am
told I must have the flash developement tool from adobe to use the
command window that deals with scaleform in Unreal engine. It's "only"
$700, thats all. Then some rep says, "Student edition $100. At that point I
don't care how much student edition is because i am insulted at the web
of DRM and consumerism that is blocking my way from being creative.
That's the "Great Paywall" right there.

So I find a command line tool that requires me to make a batch file. Text
is written in the batch file that directs stuff to file location and there
are flags written in the batch file to configure how it compiles. I am not a
programmer so setting the flags is a matter of trial and error for me.

I sucessfully alter the menu with the command line tool, however the
flags are incorrect so the game crashes on menu open. Still more trial and
error to go. Unbeknownst to me during my isolation the Modpacalypse
had started. Since hearing about paid mods I fell into a deep sadness and
couldn't play Skyrim at all. Also Chinese hackers invaded my computer
through the Java connection used for the decomiler and even boot time
scan wouldn't remove the virus infestaion and I had to remove the hard
drive completely. This is the main reason I missed the Modpocalyse.

Eventually I came down from my mountain of isolation with my half
finished stone tablets as it were of modifications. And from a distance I
saw the modding community making a golden calf or perhaps a gear logo,
it was on the horizen, hard to see. Everyone was going crazy and doing
all manner of wild things and I asked my brother aa..., I mean Dark0ne
(Robin Scott), "I left you to watch over them, why have not you stopped
this?". And he said to me, "They gave me gold and forced me to do it".
At the ignobility of it I threw down the stone tablet of unfinished mods on
the ground and it broke into pieces.

I then try to see the paymods that are up during the end of the
Modpocalypse. I notice they all have cover art like some slick advertising
campaign, that makes me wonder how that could be organized on such
short notice. I see the conversation on Reddit and watch as Gabe dodges
questions about DRM and exclusivity(meaning he plans to enact it if
possible). Also I should mention that the money to the Nexus from the
workshop while in your mind, as well as your lawyers mind as being clear
legally, is not safe in a social context.

The intent of the money is because some people believe that if they give
you money that they have you or you owe them. Its a win-win for the
giver of the money in that if things go sour the community percieves that
you sold out. So its a lose-lose for you to take that money
I believe the distributor involved in this sees you as competition, because
it is trying to make it self the one shop stop for everything (just look at
the Community tab).

That is why they left for the weekend and walked
away. When it was said, "Didn't someone speak to you" that translates
into didn't you get your money, go away. You are British so you may not
see that. There are minor differences in communication style.

This is further demonstrated in the comments of a certain mod author that
took his pay mod down. Someone else's assets were in it and he was in a
non-disclosure agreement with the distributor. The advice he got from the
distributor was to go ahead post the mod up its fair game. So in effect
they encouraged stealing. Then after he did the right thing by requesting it
be taken down, they told him that they wouldn't remove it unless made to
by the law. It was theirs.

Both business insider and Forbes articles were written about how it was
such a bad idea.
Also I noticed LFD2 doesn't have pay mods. something to think about.
I believe it was purposeful to create division in the community.

And so after the stone tablet modifications lay on the ground as shards,
the golden calf was melted down. Everyone was made to drink the melted
down gold. Brum... something, protested and called me a "terrorist", while
he was sitting next to a guy named Toatl, despite the fact I was on the
mountaintop during the entire Modpocalypse. Then my brother Dark0ne
and that Brum guy said, you don't contribute enough and you were on the
mountaintop this whole time, you feel "entitled".

Dark0ne, you have said that it takes $500,000 to run the servers
apparently. Perhaps the community should off load this expensive cost
from you. There are many good programmers in the community that could
make a peer to peer client that could be used by the tens of thousand or
millions of Skyrim or other game players to host the mods in part on
their computers in decentralized parts. This would offload monetary
concerns from you.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You, sir, are brilliant (and a good writer).

pleasenoname wrote: If the next Bethesda game has pay mods, I won't buy it.
One of Dark0ne's news posts says that we won't uninstall steam.

I will. When I played Civ 4 there was 2 PR reps in the forum and 80% of the community there was against distributing Civ 5 only in steam. I got LFD2 to test if steam was DRM during that time. It indeed was. I never bought Civ 5. Someone gave it to me later though. I never play it

That is the only reason I had steam and I decided to give Skyrim one chance with it, however I dislike the ads that constantly pop-up whenever I start it.

This is all a part of the casino-fication of gaming that started with MMO's and has continued with unlock keys in game for random items (essentially gambling) and micro-transactions.

I posted on the steam forums for Shadowrun, which I have from gog.com, a DRM free game distributor.
Someone said they wouldn't buy Shadowrun without achievements. I told them that achievements were apart of the casino-fication of gaming in that corporations give out countless awards to the employees to boost the confidence of the employees so that they do more. It's like a cheap way of getting more out of them without paying more.

The entire thread was deleted, just because I brought up the casino-fication of gaming.
I'm not a gambler.

This brings me to my next idea; Why don't we have a monetary prize for mod of the month or year? The entire community could contribute to the prize and the winner that month or year gets it.

Another idea is custom mods made under the patronage system for specific people.

O, wait that's against Bethesda's terms of service and the Nexus's policies as well.

No wonder some people were mad, Bethesda and company were violating their own EULA.

 

 

Check out Rebel47's post on the idea of proposing such a system (in collaboration with Bethesda) in order to promote the best mods:

 

http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2796199-encouraging-users-to-donate-to-authors-on-the-nexus-without-people-resorting-to-begging/page-2&do=findComment&comment=24813874

 

Show a voice of endorsement if you think the idea would be at least better than the spanner people were recently thrown.

His ideas certainly ARE great, but... it would be a logistics nightmare for the mod review page. x.x