Drawing a line under recent events and moving on

farmerflame · May 9, 2015

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269 are all replies on the same post.

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Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

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MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

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Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

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Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

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MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

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Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

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AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<Link Removed> Micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

@Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth · May 9, 2015

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939 are all replies on the same post.

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Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

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MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

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Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

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Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

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MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

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Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

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AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<link removed> micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

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farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 · May 9, 2015

In response to post #24997179. #24997739, #25000969, #25001074, #25002429, #25002999, #25003089, #25006504, #25010279, #25012879, #25020594, #25021179, #25021829, #25022179, #25042124, #25059069, #25093179 are all replies on the same post.

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janishewski wrote: Since some mod authors erase any comment they don't agree with I will state my argument for paid mods here. I am a chef and a restaurant owner. What does that have to do with this you ask? The analogy is that Valve would be my infrastructure. The things that allow my business to operate (utilities, the building housing my restaurant, parking, etc). Bethesda would be my food companies. They provide me with the resources and tools needed to produce my product. Then I, using these resources create and sell what I've produced. Anyone wanna guess what my average profit margin is after expenses. Yep, you guessed it, 25-30%. Around 30% is standard for the industry though obviously there are those that make more and those that make less. If someone told me I could make a guaranteed 25% profit for the rest of the time my business exists, I would take it in a heartbeat, and so would anyone else I've ever known in the industry. So lets stop pretending that it was the % that mod makers were getting that was the problem. Obviously those selling their mods and those that wanted to did not feel that way. Would a 35% been better, of course, but 25% was a perfectly acceptable place to start.
I work roughly 80-100 hours per week. If I were to let people come in and eat my food with nothing more than a "donation" option, how long do you think I would be motivated to continue to work and how long would a business like that last? The answer to both is "not one minute". If everyone that downloaded and endorsed a mod "donated" even 50 cents American to the modder, this would never be an issue. The truth that I have heard from modders is that, for some of the larger mods, it is less than 1% of endorsers that donate. So please stop with the donation nonsense. Hoping for donations does not pay the bills. What you rejected was the ability for talented people to build an entire industry around creating more content for great games. Nobody was forcing anything on anyone and free mods would still be all over the place as they were. What you took away was choice and as a result, the number, quality, and ambition of mods will take a hit and talented modders will move on to other projects or mod for games to do allow them compensation for their labor. This was a victory for nobody. It was also irrelevant as optional paid mods will return and they will return with Bethesda products. I guarantee that and I don't guarantee much. Anyway, I hope that this post offers a different way to look at the issue.

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bullpcp wrote: People were essentially opposed to other consenting adults voluntarily interacting n a manner that they didn't agree with.

25% is actually much higher as a percentage return than many creators are able to get in many industries. I know that for instance authors often only get 5% for their works and that if you make the financial comparison the return on assets is often only around 8%.

Of course the only relevant opinions on the matter of just compensation and cost are between those selling and those purchasing goods and services.

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retnav98 wrote: People talk about the costs to host mods as a reasonable justification for taking 75% of the profit... But they are/were taking None of the LIABILITY. As well, they are hosting Free mods of Arguably BETTER Quality and incurring the same cost and liability. Is there an industry where such a compensation dichotomy is present?

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Mr. Dave wrote: First, it never was the % that was the problem, so your entire argument is invalid.
Second, there are a few of us, a very few of us, who do not rely on Bethesda for anything. We create our own content and can use third party programs to implement them. This invalidates them as a source for anything.
I could be releasing my content for other games if Skyrim didn't exist. There are plenty of them.
Third, the modders who jumped on the "pay me pay me" bandwagon did not create their own content whatsoever. Everything uploaded for sale was either Bethesda assets, ported from another game legally, or ported from elsewhere illegally.
Modding will never improve due to money. This recent fiasco proved that the exact opposite happens. The mods being spammed up for sale were garbage, plain and simple.
Fourth, just because you are crying about the great victory for all of us, doesn't mean it wasn't a victory. I don't know... maybe your mom will bake you some cookies.

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bullpcp wrote: retnav98
I personally think 25% was terrible I probably wouldn't work for that low of a percentage. I just don't think I should have any say in what another human being considers reasonable or unreasonable. I'm unsure why you think them not being held liable is an issue. Whether they pay a percent or a set amount the distributor wouldn't be held liable regardless.

Person A: I got a job for 25,000/year doing the same thing I used to get 0/year.
Person B: They should pay you 100,000/year
Person A: No I'm good with the 25,000/year, thank you.
Person B: They shouldn't be allowed to pay you that little.
Person A: Please stop trying to help. I'm good with the 25,000/year.
Person B: No you should work for 100,000 or zero.
Person A: Please stop trying to help me. I'm really good with the 25,000/year.

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bullpcp wrote: "First, it never was the % that was the problem, so your entire argument is invalid."
For many this is exactly what they mentioned in their arguments so it may be irrelevant for you but several hundred posts would indicate others hold a different view on this.

"Second, there are a few of us, a very few of us, who do not rely on Bethesda for anything. We create our own content and can use third party programs to implement them. This invalidates them as a source for anything."

If you are referring to things produced that have nothing to do with Skyrim or Bethesda obvious statements are obvious. If you are referring to mods, or anything else, that runs on Skyrim's engine, but created not using their creation kit. Then you are still using their IP. You do realize making something to run on another game engine... kinda uses their IP.

"I could be releasing my content for other games if Skyrim didn't exist. There are plenty of them."

Uh... Yea. Did someone tell you that if you made something that had nothing to do with Skryim or Bethesda you couldn't distribute it? Yea that would be obviously wrong.

"Third, the modders who jumped on the "pay me pay me" bandwagon did not create their own content whatsoever. Everything uploaded for sale was either Bethesda assets, ported from another game legally, or ported from elsewhere illegally."

So if what you stated is correct than many mods that Bethesda already technically owned were being allowed to be sold for profit by people who did not own them. I don't know that anyone actually ever advocated for the allowing stolen IP to be sold.

"Modding will never improve due to money. This recent fiasco proved that the exact opposite happens. The mods being spammed up for sale were garbage, plain and simple."

The garbage mods that were being spammed up for sale were not selling and would not have sold. The mods that would have sold may have been different. Since it was never given a chance we will never know. You are arguing a hypothetical... we all are.

"Fourth, just because you are crying about the great victory for all of us, doesn't mean it wasn't a victory. I don't know... maybe your mom will bake you some cookies."

I don't agree that is was a victory. I wasn't involved in any conflict so I feel no need to cry. You mad bro... need a hug? Maybe you can eat my moms cookies... jealous? Don't choke on the Haterade.

You do realize I actually benefit from this outcome. I don't want to pay for mods. I just feel that I should be able to look beyond my own self interest and propose a solution that is fair even if it disadvantages me.

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retnav98 wrote: I agree...I don't have a right to tell people what compensation for THEIR efforts is fair. Does that mean that I should remain silent while I am aware that LIES and misinformation is being foisted?

The liability they incur is only the cost of a refund, which they did honor while simultaneously penalizing the USER. Does that response HELP Modders?. It would be reasonable to infer that this response was hurtful to modders; it kind of looks like Valve was NOT supporting the Modders at all. You gotta wonder what the end-game was...It might be they were not all on the same page at Bethesda and Valve.

What if they WERE all mindful of an endgame that was NOT what they publicly asserted...We're seeing that statistics cited were not credible...WHAT ELSE?

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bullpcp wrote: retnav98
Please indicate where and how Bethesda and Valve related "LIES and misinformation". I'm honestly interested in the who, what, and were of such misinformation but have yet to read a credible citation.

How does a refund penalize the USER?
By "response" are you referring to the refund because yes a refund would help a mod user and no that would not be hurtful to modders. Bad mods get downloaded for free everyday if you give back the mod users right back were they started. Could mod users abuse the system... maybe but systems evolve... when given the chance. For instance Valve was going to limit refunds.

What statistics were they relating were not valid?

Hanlon's razor
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."~Robert A. Heinlein'

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retnav98 wrote: It has been explained ad infinitum that Valve and Bethesda were and are endowed with an Extensive knowledge base in All aspects of Gaming... Just like things that are too good to be true, Excuses/decisions that defy the understanding of the rest of the Industry (too implausible to be true) are ALSO usually untrue.

I have read posts that estimate PC sales as high as 8.8 million..These estimates come from a variety of sources, You seem to be saying that they ALL are in error and the numbers/percentages that were originally projected sales just two days after release and are identical to what was represented as up-to-date...is pure coincidence.. Maybe I'm missing your concession...

It has been reported and confirmed that people who returned games for refund, were banned for a week. The reason (supposedly) was that it is policy to restrict unconfirmed payments...and it was a countermeasure to potential CC theft ..Who steals their Mommy's CC then asks for a refund? Notice, they didn't delay the purchase for a week. They allowed the user to have the mod, the Ban was enforced when a refund was requested. The punitive result of this policy Hurts sales...if users are discouraged from refunding...the more likely result is the USER will no longer BUY MODS...

"How can you be so obtuse?"
Andy Dufresne

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bullpcp wrote: retnav98
I'm actually asking to cite specific examples with actual evidence to back up what you are saying. Instead you are repeatedly ASSERTING without a shred of evidence or data to back up your ASSERTIONS. I actually want to verify that what you are writing is correct to come to my own conclusions without relying upon some random people on the internet words for it. I want to come to the most logically conclusion based upon the most substantial evidence. If I am wrong I want to know exactly what and why.

How are you so comfortable simply accepting people's word for it? You seem incredibly at ease accepting what you want to be true without any evidence but don't even acknowledge dozens of citations directly contradicting your previous beliefs. You simply move onto the next assertion like nothing happened.

Please cite the source of the 8.8 million PC sales estimate. I have cited at least two complete sets of data for all three platform sales that indicate PC units sales are a minority. You assert that 8.8 million is sales is reasonable and that this number comes from a variety of sources than this should be really easy... cite one.

You keep ASSERTING that the percentage of sales on each platform were the same two days after release again... citation needed.

Were people have actually cited their sources they have often been misinterpreted or just plain wrong.

Please indicate were all of these reports are and how they were confirmed. Please indicate why Valves reasons are obviously wrong. I've had my account frozen several times in the last few years. I'm assuming the reasons they gave me were prima facie true but... maybe conspiracy... maybe reasons...

I have repeatedly pointed out how very poor the paid for mod execution was. You pointing out problems that occurred within 5 days of rolling out a new and untested product is hardly reason to believe it COULD not work. If what you write is correct about no one buying paid for mods then paid for mods would have naturally become irrelevant anyway.

Peace. :)

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retnav98 wrote: You have Dark0ne's own explanation of a timeline of events from his perspective, You have the Total biscuit interview...Discussing Impressions by people directly connected to those making the VALVE/Bethesda decisions and releases. Those aren't Random sources...nor are they "half-baked" opinions. They don't make the leap I have. Which may mean I am off-base...it may also be because they are in Business with these people and would be ending their career if they did.

Your need to see numbers and statistics is already satisfied and in front of you..Harbringe and Jason' have both sited variations that do not square with the 14%. You seem to have responded that if we are unable to accept the 14% the only thing one must assume is the improbable belief that STEAM is unaware of how many games were sold....which I say is not the ONLY conclusion one can or must consider.

If the 14% is in error or not up-to-date...then the percentage of people involved in modding is also incorrect. and we come back to the question repeatedly asked in the TB discussion...How could they get this so completely wrong and how are they so disconnected from the very Community they say they were trying to reward?

I never said modders don't have a right to make money...My very first post on this Forum boiled down to 2 points...People have seen this coming and we shouldn't be surprised at the move,we should be surprised at the manner it was done. My second point was that we should not judge people harshly for their decision to charge for their mods. I have not abandoned ANY position. Though I have come to publicly express regret for my choice to boycott.

I cited the practice to Ban users who requested refunds. You needed clarification as if I was the first to bring it up and had no grasp of cause and effect but you are perfectly willing to write it off as an anomaly attributed to the 1st 5 days of a launch (Growing Pains?). Evidently, I should simply ignore that this is a Company with more than a decade of experience in Sales.. 125 million active users and the source for 75% of ALL on-line PC Game sales.

I certainly seems that it is YOU who are abandoning and shifting.

in march of 2014 ARS Technica

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/04/introducing-steam-gauge-ars-reveals-steams-most-popular-games/

Estimated that 5.94 Million STEAM members owned Skyrim

that would suggest that PC game users were near 30% since at this point, Bethesda was reporting only 20 million total?
I have asked Harbringe but I'll ask you as well, Is it possible that Bethesda's sales numbers do not include Steam downloads?

What the site seems to be saying is their sampling has an up/down margin of error @ 3%...so even if we assume they are 3% high...that's still indicates more than 28% of total sales IF we are now including Skyrim Download sales as separate from Bethesda's.

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Wolvenlight wrote: Mr. Dave

The percentage cut was one of the most mentioned issues the community had with the whole paid mods thing. So it was the problem, but not for the reasons many would think, which was OPs point.

The modders who jumped on the pay bandwagon were a mix of people who either created unique assets or edited assets. Really, they had every right to edit game assets (as they were given that right by Bethesda, the creators of those assets.) Unless you're talking about modders taking assets from, say, immersive armors and putting them in their own mods, or creating their mod to be SKSE reliant and not giving proper credit and compensation. But that's a far cry from all of them.

I do agree that paid modding can divide a community with greed. It tends to stifle innovation when people are so concerned about competition that open resources and tutorials go away.

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janishewski wrote: Really good insult, not much of an argument. Not worth responding to. And if you are so talented and require no help creating content, then what does this have to do with you anyway? As to who is using what, that is between the content creator and Bethesda and has nothing to do with you. If you don't like the paid content, then don't buy it and download a free alternative. Nothing in your argument counters anything I wrote.

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CaladanAnduril wrote: Don't try to reason with them Jani, here ANY different opinion is covered under a smoke screen of words, because ALL of them try to elude the true issue:

- if you don't like it, don't buy it, period, nobody is forcing you, any other discussion is pure hypocrisy

Pay attention to the names, same names show up over and over again, the spearhead of a intolerant minority.

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retnav98 wrote: @Caladanaldur,

This is literally the last people still talking about paymods...and that's because most people realize there's nothing to talk about...nothing being gained...even verifying that the words/numbers don't match the actions doesn't change anyone's mind.

I was just reading Gabe and Robin's exchange on reddit...

[–]NexusDark0ne 2284 points 11 days ago*
If there's anyone who understands your plight in being pressured in to more conservative policing of content based on personal views, beliefs and opinions, it's me. The Nexus is known to host some of the most liberal content out there and we're lambasted for it on many sides. Some game devs won't even touch us because of it. But my personal opinion remains the same, irrespective of whether I agree with or like the content (and there's plenty of stuff on the Nexus I'm really not a fan of), if I take down one file for insulting certain sensitivities, where do I draw the line? Who's line? My line? Your line? So yeah, you're preaching to the choir on that one.
However, we're not talking about limiting types of content, we're talking about the functionality of Steam being used to fundamentally change a principle tenet of the modding community that's existed since the very beginning. That is, the principle that the sharing of mods can be free and open to everyone, if they so wish, and that that choice remains squarely in the hands of the people who develop those mods. Please, do not misunderstand me, I believe I've made myself clear that if certain mod platforms want to explore paid modding then they can, for better or for worse, but I am categorically against the concept of mods only being allowed to be shared online, with others, through only one platform. I'm against the concept of modders not having a choice. While a lot of melodrama has ensued from Valve and Bethesda's actions this week, I absolutely believe that you would be destroying a key pillar of modding if you were to allow your service to be used in such a way.
I appreciate you cannot dictate what developers do outside and off of Steams services, but Steam is Valve's service, and you can control how your service is used.
permalinkparent
[–]GabeNewellBellevueCONFIRMED VALVE CEO 1337 points 11 days ago
the principle that the sharing of mods can be free and open to everyone
Completely 100% agree.

What's he agreeing 100% to?....everything Robin said?...or just the part about controlling STEAM?

You and a good number of modders will continue to live in this moment...to harbor anger and resentment...and many users including you, will realize that their free mods, no longer have the quality that we ALL once enjoyed...this will remind you of your resentment and it becomes self-perpetuating....neither user nor modder wins...and the one who comes away unscathed...is the one sitting in a coffee shop in Bellvue sipping a Latte and casually dismissing 3400 emails.

Quote
janishewski wrote: I'll take your advice. Cheers brother, and thanks for the support.

Quote
Bretwalda wrote: Donations aren't enough, and I would easily accept paid mods to keep mod authors interested in tweaking things, and responding on tech support posts. I don't think all gamers today are young, poor college kids. Many oldsters like me (50) will pay for a premium products we enjoy - cars, homes, cellphones, and video games.

The problem was just that, making sure mods that are paid for are premium mods, not just a bunch of retextured gear or something... Some coding and new content should be a requisite.

Maybe Valve needs to roll this out from the start with a fresh new IP.

@Bretwalda,

Speaking for those closer to 60, Premium and BEST VALUE are not always the same. Valve chose to offer a product they knew was not worth the money...but that's what they do...they offer over 4500 games, but they HAVE offered COUNTLESS others...They don't spend money trying to determine what is and isn't good...they throw it ALL into the mix and let it play out according to the consumer's whim.

It kinda explains why they took the weekend off when others were concerned for the backlash... Valve knew there would be a backlash...they HAD to know...they may even have counted on it. Aside from the 4 paragraphs announcing their cancellation...they have simply dropped the issue and moved on.

retnav98 · May 9, 2015

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949 are all replies on the same post.

Reveal hidden contents

Quote
Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

Quote
MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Quote
Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Quote
Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

Quote
MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Quote
Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

Quote
AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<kink removed> Micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

Quote
farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

Quote
wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

@wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth · May 9, 2015

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094 are all replies on the same post.

Reveal hidden contents

Quote
Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

Quote
MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Quote
Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Quote
Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

Quote
MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Quote
Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

Quote
AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<kink removed> Micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

Quote
farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

Quote
wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

Quote
retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 · May 9, 2015

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539 are all replies on the same post.

Reveal hidden contents

Quote
Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

Quote
MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Quote
Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Quote
Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

Quote
MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Quote
Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

Quote
AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<kink removed> Micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

Quote
farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

Quote
wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

Quote
retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

Quote
wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril · May 9, 2015

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729 are all replies on the same post.

Reveal hidden contents

Quote
Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

Quote
MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Quote
Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Quote
Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

Quote
MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Quote
Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

Quote
AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/accessionsoft/820112016?token=1cdf617f

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

Quote
farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

Quote
wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

Quote
retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

Quote
wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

Quote
retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth · May 9, 2015

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249 are all replies on the same post.

Reveal hidden contents

Quote
Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

Quote
MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Quote
Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Quote
Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

Quote
MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Quote
Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

Quote
AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/accessionsoft/820112016?token=1cdf617f

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

Quote
farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

Quote
wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

Quote
retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

Quote
wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

Quote
retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

Quote
CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 · May 10, 2015

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729 are all replies on the same post.

Reveal hidden contents

Quote
Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

Quote
MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Quote
Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Quote
Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

Quote
MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Quote
Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

Quote
AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/accessionsoft/820112016?token=1cdf617f

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

Quote
farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

Quote
wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

Quote
retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

Quote
wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

Quote
retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

Quote
CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

Quote
wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

@ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.

People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?
Edited May 10, 2015 by retnav98

retnav98 · May 10, 2015

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309 are all replies on the same post.

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Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

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MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

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Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

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Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

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MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

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Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

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AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<kink removed> Micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

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farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

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wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

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retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

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wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

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retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

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CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

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wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

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retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.

People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

Drawing a line under recent events and moving on

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