Drawing a line under recent events and moving on

[Vesuvius1745]

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<kink removed> Micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote: Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.

And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.

[wulfharth]

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444, #25117929 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<kink removed> Micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote: Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.

And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.

Unfortunately, when you pick a side you bear the sins of the hate mob with whom you've sided. That's why Dark0ne is remaining neutral. And if you read the above posts, I tried to keep my disdain general, until I got called a narcissist. The truth hurts man.

I haven't quit modding. I mod twice as much now as I did before this fiasco. I just quit giving it away because Bethesda wants us to get paid, and I feel under appreciated.

Let me ask you both this: If I found a legal way to put a dlc sized mod behind a donate wall and 95% of the money went to mod authors, would you see a problem with that implementation? If so, please explain. Also, the mod will be free to the public when it's done.

[retnav98]

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444, #25117929, #25126749 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<link removed> Micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote: Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.

And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.

wulfharth wrote: Unfortunately, when you pick a side you bear the sins of the hate mob with whom you've sided. That's why Dark0ne is remaining neutral. And if you read the above posts, I tried to keep my disdain general, until I got called a narcissist. The truth hurts man.

I haven't quit modding. I mod twice as much now as I did before this fiasco. I just quit giving it away because Bethesda wants us to get paid, and I feel under appreciated.

Let me ask you both this: If I found a legal way to put a dlc sized mod behind a donate wall and 95% of the money went to mod authors, would you see a problem with that implementation? If so, please explain. Also, the mod will be free to the public when it's done.

The truth is YOU Wulf' chose your words...not the comunity. Whether 'You' is singular or plural...your choice of words never made a distinction between those who's motives were completely selfish and those who didn't enter into the fray at all. To make so glaring an oversight , not even hinting at a contrast, and then even when acknowledging a difference adjudging that a SIDE was chosen...is simply 'Doubling Down' on your failed perspective.

Your 'If / Then' proposal I assume is referring to profit after cost. (You can't possibly believe that costs can be reduced to 5%). As I have stated before, I have no right to tell a Modder how much is FAIR. The Market does that...

What you need to understand is the MARKET also includes those who will take FAR more than what is deserved...and in the REAL scenario, those who fall under that description weren't just the segment of the comunity who were AGAINST monetization .

Edited May 12, 2015 by micalov

[nexusmodskyu]

Hey~ I just wanted to say, If nothing else, nexusmods.com just got another lifetime member from far east asia :D

 

I joined this site in this year, couple of month ago. and, you know, kinda didn't pay attention to what's goin on. didn't even know who runs this site

All I wanted was just download some cool skyrim mods and try them out that's all

 

This recent ... "incident" made me think about it, and I read all these posts and stuff, just wanted to say that you guys have really good thing goin on here, really good community. and i kind of like Dark0ne's philosophy about this whole thing, you know.

 

so, anyway keep up the good job and have a nice day guys

Edited May 10, 2015 by nexusmodskyu

[WaltC]

I weigh in rarely, but this issue I find interesting enough. To introduce organized, centralized pay/donation schemes into a grand & fantastic modding house like the Nexus is to invite crass commercialism to enter the scene and it won't be long, I fear, before it has consumed the Nexus entirely--making it a caricature of what it is presently. The very worst thing that might happen to the Nexus is the development of the general concept that the Nexus is primarily interested in money with game modding being used only as a tool to cynically achieve that end. (Like Al Gore and his man-made global warming doom preaching, etc.) When and if the Nexus should one day be more about nickel & diming than about mods that will be the beginning of its end, imo.

 

I do not personally believe that will happen because I think Dark One and pals have far too much sense to ever let things devolve that far! (Otherwise they'd never have come as far as they have!) But the point I want to make is that this is a slippery slope, without a doubt. Innocent & logical intentions have a tendency to snowball over time and can wind up the diametric opposite of the original intent.

 

I think the only possible avenue for remuneration here is voluntary, and a low-key voluntary at that. My choice would be that all mod creators who wish to do so, humbly ask for voluntary donations from the people who think the software is worth paying for, and they ask them in a text file that accompanies their mod. That's it. (Along the shareware modes of operation, etc.) The notion of the Nexus itself advertising what mods are for sale and by whom is certainly among the wrong-headed approaches that are possible. The Nexus is about Mods--not about wholesaling goods & services, etc.

 

I won't delve into yet-another-definition of modding, because all of us know exactly what it is. My advice for the people who'd like to do it professionally and attempt to make a living out of its simple: form a company of your own (one person can incorporate his own business) and throw up a commercial web site and start selling your mods and see if your plan is viable. Or, if you're a talented modder who wants to be paid for his time but doesn't want to have to manage a business at the same time, then you should apply to established game developers that are hiring people with your skill sets. Or, again, if you have the money and know-how, you might start your own game development house, etc.

 

Meanwhile, the Nexus, a site that is of, by, and for game modding, will go on to live long and prosper, as it will remain a haven for modding as opposed to finance...!...;)

[wulfharth]

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444, #25117929, #25126749, #25130219 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<link removed> micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote: Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.

And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.

wulfharth wrote: Unfortunately, when you pick a side you bear the sins of the hate mob with whom you've sided. That's why Dark0ne is remaining neutral. And if you read the above posts, I tried to keep my disdain general, until I got called a narcissist. The truth hurts man.

I haven't quit modding. I mod twice as much now as I did before this fiasco. I just quit giving it away because Bethesda wants us to get paid, and I feel under appreciated.

Let me ask you both this: If I found a legal way to put a dlc sized mod behind a donate wall and 95% of the money went to mod authors, would you see a problem with that implementation? If so, please explain. Also, the mod will be free to the public when it's done.

retnav98 wrote: The truth is YOU Wulf' chose your words...not the comunity. Whether 'You' is singular or plural...your choice of words never made a distinction between those who's motives were completely selfish and those who didn't enter into the fray at all. To make so glaring an oversight , not even hinting at a contrast, and then even when acknowledging a difference adjudging that a SIDE was chosen...is simply 'Doubling Down' on your failed perspective.

Your 'If / Then' proposal I assume is referring to profit after cost. (You can't possibly believe that costs can be reduced to 5%). As I have stated before, I have no right to tell a Modder how much is FAIR. The Market does that...

What you need to understand is the MARKET also includes those who will take FAR more than what is deserved...and in the REAL scenario, those who fall under that description weren't just the segment of the comunity who were AGAINST monetization .

I'm not going to say that every paid modder had the best of intentions, but I will say they deserve the right to seek compensation. I'm not saying you're a jerk because you disagree. But it would make my life easier if you did. :smile:

In the system I'm proposing there is technically zero profit (free mod) and the 5% is for hosting costs. The 95% is payroll to the artists. So the cost is technically 100%. It's not really a hypothetical. There is one mod like this now. I would link but I'm on my phone.

[retnav98]

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444, #25117929, #25126749, #25130219, #25131554 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<link removed> micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote: Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.

And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.

wulfharth wrote: Unfortunately, when you pick a side you bear the sins of the hate mob with whom you've sided. That's why Dark0ne is remaining neutral. And if you read the above posts, I tried to keep my disdain general, until I got called a narcissist. The truth hurts man.

I haven't quit modding. I mod twice as much now as I did before this fiasco. I just quit giving it away because Bethesda wants us to get paid, and I feel under appreciated.

Let me ask you both this: If I found a legal way to put a dlc sized mod behind a donate wall and 95% of the money went to mod authors, would you see a problem with that implementation? If so, please explain. Also, the mod will be free to the public when it's done.

retnav98 wrote: The truth is YOU Wulf' chose your words...not the comunity. Whether 'You' is singular or plural...your choice of words never made a distinction between those who's motives were completely selfish and those who didn't enter into the fray at all. To make so glaring an oversight , not even hinting at a contrast, and then even when acknowledging a difference adjudging that a SIDE was chosen...is simply 'Doubling Down' on your failed perspective.

Your 'If / Then' proposal I assume is referring to profit after cost. (You can't possibly believe that costs can be reduced to 5%). As I have stated before, I have no right to tell a Modder how much is FAIR. The Market does that...

What you need to understand is the MARKET also includes those who will take FAR more than what is deserved...and in the REAL scenario, those who fall under that description weren't just the segment of the comunity who were AGAINST monetization .

wulfharth wrote: I'm not going to say that every paid modder had the best of intentions, but I will say they deserve the right to seek compensation. I'm not saying you're a jerk because you disagree. But it would make my life easier if you did. :smile:

In the system I'm proposing there is technically zero profit (free mod) and the 5% is for hosting costs. The 95% is payroll to the artists. So the cost is technically 100%. It's not really a hypothetical. There is one mod like this now. I would link but I'm on my phone.

I wasn't specifically referring to modders...Valve has a 75% market share....Let that sink in a second...3/4 of ALL games sold on the internet are marketed through ONE source...

That source competes indirectly with sites like Nexus and ModDB and Torrent and a variety of sites that simply offer reviews and tutorials. Some don't charge for membership and privilege, some do but they offer data that keeps users from being exposed to the STEAM sales pitch...the game sales...the cards, the Indy game releases, the forums.If the community isn't logged in to STEAM..STEAM is losing money...So disabling those sites...brings the user back to "The WalMart of Gaming".

Up until recently, Bethesda had literally forgotten Skyrim. Then out of the blue...they work with STEAM to change the CK... Bethesda was brought into this by Valve on the promise of renewed revenues. If it had worked, STEAM would get those modders and the community that had migrated away...to return... The benefit to them was the percentage of profit leveraged with minimal exposure to cost...but the REAL benefit is the amount of people returned to the larger marketplace...spending money on things OTHER THAN mods for Skyrim.

[Vesuvius1745]

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444, #25117929, #25126749, #25130219, #25131554, #25133174 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<link removed> micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote: Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.

And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.

wulfharth wrote: Unfortunately, when you pick a side you bear the sins of the hate mob with whom you've sided. That's why Dark0ne is remaining neutral. And if you read the above posts, I tried to keep my disdain general, until I got called a narcissist. The truth hurts man.

I haven't quit modding. I mod twice as much now as I did before this fiasco. I just quit giving it away because Bethesda wants us to get paid, and I feel under appreciated.

Let me ask you both this: If I found a legal way to put a dlc sized mod behind a donate wall and 95% of the money went to mod authors, would you see a problem with that implementation? If so, please explain. Also, the mod will be free to the public when it's done.

retnav98 wrote: The truth is YOU Wulf' chose your words...not the comunity. Whether 'You' is singular or plural...your choice of words never made a distinction between those who's motives were completely selfish and those who didn't enter into the fray at all. To make so glaring an oversight , not even hinting at a contrast, and then even when acknowledging a difference adjudging that a SIDE was chosen...is simply 'Doubling Down' on your failed perspective.

Your 'If / Then' proposal I assume is referring to profit after cost. (You can't possibly believe that costs can be reduced to 5%). As I have stated before, I have no right to tell a Modder how much is FAIR. The Market does that...

What you need to understand is the MARKET also includes those who will take FAR more than what is deserved...and in the REAL scenario, those who fall under that description weren't just the segment of the comunity who were AGAINST monetization .

wulfharth wrote: I'm not going to say that every paid modder had the best of intentions, but I will say they deserve the right to seek compensation. I'm not saying you're a jerk because you disagree. But it would make my life easier if you did. :smile:

In the system I'm proposing there is technically zero profit (free mod) and the 5% is for hosting costs. The 95% is payroll to the artists. So the cost is technically 100%. It's not really a hypothetical. There is one mod like this now. I would link but I'm on my phone.

retnav98 wrote: I wasn't specifically referring to modders...Valve has a 75% market share....Let that sink in a second...3/4 of ALL games sold on the internet are marketed through ONE source...

That source competes indirectly with sites like Nexus and ModDB and Torrent and a variety of sites that simply offer reviews and tutorials. Some don't charge for membership and privilege, some do but they offer data that keeps users from being exposed to the STEAM sales pitch...the game sales...the cards, the Indy game releases, the forums.If the community isn't logged in to STEAM..STEAM is losing money...So disabling those sites...brings the user back to "The WalMart of Gaming".

Up until recently, Bethesda had literally forgotten Skyrim. Then out of the blue...they work with STEAM to change the CK... Bethesda was brought into this by Valve on the promise of renewed revenues. If it had worked, STEAM would get those modders and the community that had migrated away...to return... The benefit to them was the percentage of profit leveraged with minimal exposure to cost...but the REAL benefit is the amount of people returned to the larger marketplace...spending money on things OTHER THAN mods for Skyrim.

I support donating to mod authors. I'd donate for SkyWind.

[wulfharth]

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444, #25117929, #25126749, #25130219, #25131554, #25133174, #25134429 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<link removed> micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote: Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.

And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.

wulfharth wrote: Unfortunately, when you pick a side you bear the sins of the hate mob with whom you've sided. That's why Dark0ne is remaining neutral. And if you read the above posts, I tried to keep my disdain general, until I got called a narcissist. The truth hurts man.

I haven't quit modding. I mod twice as much now as I did before this fiasco. I just quit giving it away because Bethesda wants us to get paid, and I feel under appreciated.

Let me ask you both this: If I found a legal way to put a dlc sized mod behind a donate wall and 95% of the money went to mod authors, would you see a problem with that implementation? If so, please explain. Also, the mod will be free to the public when it's done.

retnav98 wrote: The truth is YOU Wulf' chose your words...not the comunity. Whether 'You' is singular or plural...your choice of words never made a distinction between those who's motives were completely selfish and those who didn't enter into the fray at all. To make so glaring an oversight , not even hinting at a contrast, and then even when acknowledging a difference adjudging that a SIDE was chosen...is simply 'Doubling Down' on your failed perspective.

Your 'If / Then' proposal I assume is referring to profit after cost. (You can't possibly believe that costs can be reduced to 5%). As I have stated before, I have no right to tell a Modder how much is FAIR. The Market does that...

What you need to understand is the MARKET also includes those who will take FAR more than what is deserved...and in the REAL scenario, those who fall under that description weren't just the segment of the comunity who were AGAINST monetization .

wulfharth wrote: I'm not going to say that every paid modder had the best of intentions, but I will say they deserve the right to seek compensation. I'm not saying you're a jerk because you disagree. But it would make my life easier if you did. :smile:

In the system I'm proposing there is technically zero profit (free mod) and the 5% is for hosting costs. The 95% is payroll to the artists. So the cost is technically 100%. It's not really a hypothetical. There is one mod like this now. I would link but I'm on my phone.

retnav98 wrote: I wasn't specifically referring to modders...Valve has a 75% market share....Let that sink in a second...3/4 of ALL games sold on the internet are marketed through ONE source...

That source competes indirectly with sites like Nexus and ModDB and Torrent and a variety of sites that simply offer reviews and tutorials. Some don't charge for membership and privilege, some do but they offer data that keeps users from being exposed to the STEAM sales pitch...the game sales...the cards, the Indy game releases, the forums.If the community isn't logged in to STEAM..STEAM is losing money...So disabling those sites...brings the user back to "The WalMart of Gaming".

Up until recently, Bethesda had literally forgotten Skyrim. Then out of the blue...they work with STEAM to change the CK... Bethesda was brought into this by Valve on the promise of renewed revenues. If it had worked, STEAM would get those modders and the community that had migrated away...to return... The benefit to them was the percentage of profit leveraged with minimal exposure to cost...but the REAL benefit is the amount of people returned to the larger marketplace...spending money on things OTHER THAN mods for Skyrim.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I support donating to mod authors. I'd donate for SkyWind.

I get a chuckle out of the fact that Zenimax dodged the bullet on this one. They are Bethesda's sue happy money grubbing evil overlords. I would say the whole thing came from them.

All of that is moot now. I'm talking about bigger better mods being developed and funded through kickstarter. It has happened and will again. Steam gets nothing. Bethesda gets nothing. It all goes to the modders(-5%). That is the hosting fee.

If you are a modder that has no faith in the pointless donate button and want to receive fair compensation. Build up a team and start a mod on Kickstarter. Tiny money grab mods need not apply.

[retnav98]

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444, #25117929, #25126749, #25130219, #25131554, #25133174, #25134429, #25135179 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<link removed> micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote: Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.

And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.

wulfharth wrote: Unfortunately, when you pick a side you bear the sins of the hate mob with whom you've sided. That's why Dark0ne is remaining neutral. And if you read the above posts, I tried to keep my disdain general, until I got called a narcissist. The truth hurts man.

I haven't quit modding. I mod twice as much now as I did before this fiasco. I just quit giving it away because Bethesda wants us to get paid, and I feel under appreciated.

Let me ask you both this: If I found a legal way to put a dlc sized mod behind a donate wall and 95% of the money went to mod authors, would you see a problem with that implementation? If so, please explain. Also, the mod will be free to the public when it's done.

retnav98 wrote: The truth is YOU Wulf' chose your words...not the comunity. Whether 'You' is singular or plural...your choice of words never made a distinction between those who's motives were completely selfish and those who didn't enter into the fray at all. To make so glaring an oversight , not even hinting at a contrast, and then even when acknowledging a difference adjudging that a SIDE was chosen...is simply 'Doubling Down' on your failed perspective.

Your 'If / Then' proposal I assume is referring to profit after cost. (You can't possibly believe that costs can be reduced to 5%). As I have stated before, I have no right to tell a Modder how much is FAIR. The Market does that...

What you need to understand is the MARKET also includes those who will take FAR more than what is deserved...and in the REAL scenario, those who fall under that description weren't just the segment of the comunity who were AGAINST monetization .

wulfharth wrote: I'm not going to say that every paid modder had the best of intentions, but I will say they deserve the right to seek compensation. I'm not saying you're a jerk because you disagree. But it would make my life easier if you did. :smile:

In the system I'm proposing there is technically zero profit (free mod) and the 5% is for hosting costs. The 95% is payroll to the artists. So the cost is technically 100%. It's not really a hypothetical. There is one mod like this now. I would link but I'm on my phone.

retnav98 wrote: I wasn't specifically referring to modders...Valve has a 75% market share....Let that sink in a second...3/4 of ALL games sold on the internet are marketed through ONE source...

That source competes indirectly with sites like Nexus and ModDB and Torrent and a variety of sites that simply offer reviews and tutorials. Some don't charge for membership and privilege, some do but they offer data that keeps users from being exposed to the STEAM sales pitch...the game sales...the cards, the Indy game releases, the forums.If the community isn't logged in to STEAM..STEAM is losing money...So disabling those sites...brings the user back to "The WalMart of Gaming".

Up until recently, Bethesda had literally forgotten Skyrim. Then out of the blue...they work with STEAM to change the CK... Bethesda was brought into this by Valve on the promise of renewed revenues. If it had worked, STEAM would get those modders and the community that had migrated away...to return... The benefit to them was the percentage of profit leveraged with minimal exposure to cost...but the REAL benefit is the amount of people returned to the larger marketplace...spending money on things OTHER THAN mods for Skyrim.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I support donating to mod authors. I'd donate for SkyWind.

wulfharth wrote: I get a chuckle out of the fact that Zenimax dodged the bullet on this one. They are Bethesda's sue happy money grubbing evil overlords. I would say the whole thing came from them.

All of that is moot now. I'm talking about bigger better mods being developed and funded through kickstarter. It has happened and will again. Steam gets nothing. Bethesda gets nothing. It all goes to the modders(-5%). That is the hosting fee.

If you are a modder that has no faith in the pointless donate button and want to receive fair compensation. Build up a team and start a mod on Kickstarter. Tiny money grab mods need not apply.

And that will work just fine...until it grows to the point that those who own the rights to the Game...decide the assets being generated, exceed the cost to litigate...

Robin/NEXUS has 9 million users. He has to go 'hat in hand' to Bethesda because his potential to take significant revenue is VERY REAL...Bethesda would Stomp a MUDHOLE in his ASS if there was ever a sense that NEXUS was anything but a BENEFIT to them.