Drawing a line under recent events and moving on

[retnav98]

In response to post #25172884.

hafizlordfeast wrote: You know what I think is funny, after all the f******s that Bethesda have done, ONLY when Bethesda remove the paid modding that they've decided to make a clear statement why making paid mods is a good idea with a very specific detail. But it's like making a good excuse after your wife or husband finds out you're cheating and confront you about it. They've probably should do this sooner instead of telling the percentage of money the modders received and comparing to Bethesda and Valve, which doesn't seem fair for companies that want to 'help' the modders. Making the community angry in the process, while also being angry about other thing too.

Another thing, heard that Bethesda and Valve makes dealing with excellent modders to implement the paid mods on Steam like Isoku, SkyUI Team, Chesko, and others (Probably? I don't know). So if Bethesda know enough about the potential modders that mod-users like, of course they've decided that these are the guys that will profit most for Bethesda and Gaben. BUT, if they've known enough about these guys, that means Bethesda already explore the heart of modding communities to know what is really going on in Skyrim modding process.

What I'm getting is this, these are the modders that probably know the problems of Skyrim modding. Some of the problems are conflicting mods and broken mods that can break Skyrim, and yeah, Bethesda probably suppose to know this as well, (they've already stated themselves that every mod implemented or remove must make a new game every time) if they even bother to contact them privately about this. What? They think the modding community are just casuals that only want to buy certain mods and get on with it? Even mod users with low end PC want to reach the 255 mod limits or beyond if they could, and the problem with buying mods for a game like Skyrim are indeed the conflict and broken state. Skyrim will be considered broken with mods, and fixing mods are the only solution instead of Bethesda's patches, but my God, imagine if fixing mods decided that they want to charge money as well. (You think they don't deserve this? They are the one who fix the broken game instead of Bethesda, but who is fine enough to pay something that Bethesda should've done themselves?)

Skyrim is a volatile game that got hurt more as the mods being implemented and removed, making paid mods are rather silly for a game on this kind of state, and Bethesda want to make sure the mods need to be paid? With the risk of broken the game itself? I don't know if people actually generous enough like they stated they are, in which I doubt it, that they will pay the mods no matter what, to help the modders. So you don't really care about the risk of incompability and broken state of Skyrim? But I guess you're that kind, like you state that you are?

Hey, good mods are good mods, but only if we actually use it, no preview or all that. After you are satisfied with the mods, are the time when you feel it's worth the money. So donate it as much as they've deserve it, but too bad some people isn't keen on donating but like to pay the mods for some reason. You don't know deserving mods after you try it, so why would I want to pay for some that could've been terrible. I'm pretty baffled on the people that think paid mods are a good idea for a game like Skyrim after all that, and the problem is you haven't feel the longer effect of this business plan, so you wouldn't even know the problems it could create. To bad Bethesda already pull it off before it learns to fly, huh? Mods aren't early access which is a game of its own, not something that is implemented that could risk the state of the base game. Why would I want to pay something that could risk Skyrim?

It's like Bethesda already know the community, but decided to make one fell swoop of sudden strike to free modding community. Yo, look at that, Wet and Cold is free on the Nexus but turns out the new version will be considered premium exclusively for the Steam Workshop, and you have to pay for it. Heard that Steam is incompatible with mod managers. If that is true, then there's add another problem. Wouldn't it be great if we could have all the mods compatible with each other even if we paid for, but it's not that simple isn't it?

Yes, I do agree that modders deserve to be paid for their work. Hell, all of the modders other than Skyrim modders need to be rewarded for their work, but only good modders, not terrible modders and scamming modders, of course. People doesn't seem to keen on the ideas on donating, but like to pay the mods that the modders only got thirty percent, guess they want to pay Bethesda and Valve as well, I suppose. The people who want free mods will either screw paid mods or pirated the paid mods. So where's the money on that? It was free for a long time and all of a sudden you have to pay for it like a DLC, usually conflicting or broken DLC. Can't expect people to be empathic enough to help modders paid for their hard work, in which they only get half of money anyway. There are too many reasons why Bethesda remove paid mods so early, usually on the reasons that are not good for their own circumstances.

IF Bethesda want to help the community, I already state this and I will state it again, Bethesda should be the one to pay the modders, not the customers who already purchase their product. If Bohemia Interactive able to give ten thousands prize money to modders, why can't Bethesda? Despite Bohemia Interactive getting criticized for producing expensive DLC, they're the only one who awarded the modders, even if Bohemia isn't actually richest AAA publisher. If Bethesda want to help them more, how about hiring them? If modders ain't capable enough to move to Maryland, then let them work remotely.

It's like Bethesda wanted to screw the modding community, and make sure that everyone start to go their own way and oppose each other. Trying to become a game company that is hated by its own fans. While also, to create a more hostile relation between modders and mod users. It's like every game company want to reach the top as the evil company in the world. What's going on here?

...I was thinking the same thing re. what they were REALLY trying to do.

Total Biscuit's interview can be summed up with I question....

How could they Be so WRONG about their own Market?...

The idea that they were trying to create turmoil explains it far better than the idea that they were making stupid decisions. Now I know people HAVE and will again say, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." ...pay attention to the adverb "ADEQUATELY"

In order to apply Hanlon's Razor to Valve's benefit one has to believe that their business decision was Malicious instead of simply Business. In addition, you have to believe that Valve is managed by Ignorant people... So let's stipulate that Valve is NEITHER malicious NOR ignorant...

Using Occam's Razor...the simpler explanation prevails. Even if the program had been allowed to continue, there would still be animosity within the community . Edited May 12, 2015 by retnav98

[cmkawasaki]

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444, #25117929, #25126749, #25130219, #25131554, #25133174, #25134429, #25135179, #25137384, #25138564, #25138789, #25153019, #25167894 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<link removed> micalov.

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote: Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.

And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.

wulfharth wrote: Unfortunately, when you pick a side you bear the sins of the hate mob with whom you've sided. That's why Dark0ne is remaining neutral. And if you read the above posts, I tried to keep my disdain general, until I got called a narcissist. The truth hurts man.

I haven't quit modding. I mod twice as much now as I did before this fiasco. I just quit giving it away because Bethesda wants us to get paid, and I feel under appreciated.

Let me ask you both this: If I found a legal way to put a dlc sized mod behind a donate wall and 95% of the money went to mod authors, would you see a problem with that implementation? If so, please explain. Also, the mod will be free to the public when it's done.

retnav98 wrote: The truth is YOU Wulf' chose your words...not the comunity. Whether 'You' is singular or plural...your choice of words never made a distinction between those who's motives were completely selfish and those who didn't enter into the fray at all. To make so glaring an oversight , not even hinting at a contrast, and then even when acknowledging a difference adjudging that a SIDE was chosen...is simply 'Doubling Down' on your failed perspective.

Your 'If / Then' proposal I assume is referring to profit after cost. (You can't possibly believe that costs can be reduced to 5%). As I have stated before, I have no right to tell a Modder how much is FAIR. The Market does that...

What you need to understand is the MARKET also includes those who will take FAR more than what is deserved...and in the REAL scenario, those who fall under that description weren't just the segment of the comunity who were AGAINST monetization .

wulfharth wrote: I'm not going to say that every paid modder had the best of intentions, but I will say they deserve the right to seek compensation. I'm not saying you're a jerk because you disagree. But it would make my life easier if you did. :smile:

In the system I'm proposing there is technically zero profit (free mod) and the 5% is for hosting costs. The 95% is payroll to the artists. So the cost is technically 100%. It's not really a hypothetical. There is one mod like this now. I would link but I'm on my phone.

retnav98 wrote: I wasn't specifically referring to modders...Valve has a 75% market share....Let that sink in a second...3/4 of ALL games sold on the internet are marketed through ONE source...

That source competes indirectly with sites like Nexus and ModDB and Torrent and a variety of sites that simply offer reviews and tutorials. Some don't charge for membership and privilege, some do but they offer data that keeps users from being exposed to the STEAM sales pitch...the game sales...the cards, the Indy game releases, the forums.If the community isn't logged in to STEAM..STEAM is losing money...So disabling those sites...brings the user back to "The WalMart of Gaming".

Up until recently, Bethesda had literally forgotten Skyrim. Then out of the blue...they work with STEAM to change the CK... Bethesda was brought into this by Valve on the promise of renewed revenues. If it had worked, STEAM would get those modders and the community that had migrated away...to return... The benefit to them was the percentage of profit leveraged with minimal exposure to cost...but the REAL benefit is the amount of people returned to the larger marketplace...spending money on things OTHER THAN mods for Skyrim.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I support donating to mod authors. I'd donate for SkyWind.

wulfharth wrote: I get a chuckle out of the fact that Zenimax dodged the bullet on this one. They are Bethesda's sue happy money grubbing evil overlords. I would say the whole thing came from them.

All of that is moot now. I'm talking about bigger better mods being developed and funded through kickstarter. It has happened and will again. Steam gets nothing. Bethesda gets nothing. It all goes to the modders(-5%). That is the hosting fee.

If you are a modder that has no faith in the pointless donate button and want to receive fair compensation. Build up a team and start a mod on Kickstarter. Tiny money grab mods need not apply.

retnav98 wrote: And that will work just fine...until it grows to the point that those who own the rights to the Game...decide the assets being generated, exceed the cost to litigate...

Robin/NEXUS has 9 million users. He has to go 'hat in hand' to Bethesda because his potential to take significant revenue is VERY REAL...Bethesda would Stomp a MUDHOLE in his ASS if there was ever a sense that NEXUS was anything but a BENEFIT to them.

wulfharth wrote: Ask Zenimax/Bethesda how well that worked out for them when they went after the oculus rift kickstarter. They got their little butts polished. In America the worker has plenty of rights. A company can't just take your work. They will try though. If anything, they can ask for a cut or buy the rights. That's about it. seeing as they violated their own EULA, it wouldn't be useful in court.

Vesuvius- you can donate to Skywind. They need to pay a lot in hosting fees. I gave them $50 a few months back. Go check out what they're working on. It's impressive.

retnav98 wrote: I've heard this said before and I don't understand it completely...If the owner of the property amends their EULA for their purposes, that doesn't void their rights does it? If they subsequently terminate the the action that amended the EULA, they still retain rights do they not?

I just don't see how they violated any agreement...the EULA is not an agreement to themselves.

EDIT:

I read up on Oculus Rift .. Luckey had established a pre-existing body of work. It amounted to a product that really needed only aesthetic changes and backing to market...Zenimax's claim was capricious and foolhardy, but it may have been an attempt to do more than just cash in on the Facebook investment... However the decision came about the result was an epic fail.
It may point to greed...or POOR business decision making, but the arguement that Zenimax only brought suit when "Deep Pocket" emerged, is an irony since MOST suits are brought because there is money being lost or money to be gained.

wulfharth wrote: Agreements work in both directions. They can't say, "You can't own mods, so you can't sell them." Then say,"We changed our mind. You can sell them." Then say,"No let's go back to the first standard." After amending it once, they would have had to reissue a new EULA, and everyone would have had to click agree. They threw away their own contract so the doors are now wide open.

Of course it doesn't matter. Donations that go to individuals to compensate them for their time and effort aren't profits. They can try to sue for 0% profit, but that would be silly. Additionally, if I make a model in 3ds max, sculpt it in ZBrush, and composite my textures in Photoshop, they would have to compensate me for all three programs before laying claim to that model. That software is very expensive.

wulfharth wrote: I guess we will find out if they are sue happy or not soon enough. I went live this morning.

<Link removed> Micalov

@wulfharth

Congratulations on your dev job. But really, is it necessary to gloat that you are no longer part of the community? It just seems rather odd to me that you would go through the effort for a community that you claim to be divesting from.

I'm of the opinion that getting a developer job is never a bad move.

[whismerhill]

I see a few problems with paid mods (not donations)

the number 1 being support, if you pay for something you're waiting for something delivered that works

given how complicated mod support can be (in Skyrim at the very least).

I don't think it's a good idea for this very reason.

The only exception would be mods that have nearly zero support (consists of just textures & meshes)

Scripting heavy mods would be potentially a source of huge issues

And what about the tools ? should TES5Edit or Mod Organizer be paid for ?

that would be a huge step backward to make such readily available tools that are clearly nearly impossible to bypass to make a stable mod install ... (unless again you just go for simple mods)

 

and what about the bug fixing unofficial official patches ?

I'm not even saying : "ho look some would pay for the bug fixing and the others would be stuck with their bugs"

no it goes way beyond that. When you look at the bigger picture on a statistic scale, what makes the unofficial patches so good & successful is that they are nearly universal, if they were nomore it would become a huge mess for all the other mod authors.

[RoboJasonMan]

In response to post #24965229. #24965294, #24965344, #24967219, #24968809, #24969484, #24976929, #25001309, #25006569, #25007784 are all replies on the same post.

Harbringe wrote:

 

In response to post #24942159. #24942244, #24942979, #24943319, #24944114, #24944129, #24944354, #24945849, #24950174, #24952229 are all replies on the same post.

bullpcp wrote: Trigger warning: This post is about perspective and relative importance. This may caused those with over-inflated senses of self importance to feel fear, anxiety, rage, or other negative emotions and lash out uncontrollably at those that have triggered them.

I love mods and i know it is easy to lose perspective being part of a modding community but the reality is... the modding community is simply not that important to the success of Bethesda's games or their bottom line.

According to Bethesda only about 8% of Skyrim players have ever used even a single mod and that less than 1% have ever created one. Given that the majority of those that have used mods would still have purchased and played Skyrim without mods this leaves well less than 4% of their sales in some way dependent on the modding community.

For the fraction of the 8% of mod users against paid for mods, and would never pay for mods if available, you aren't even potential customers and aren't terribly relevant to Bethesda's business decisions. Bethesda decisions about paid for mods also have to take into account the other 92%+ of Skyrim players that have never used a mod and to the other fraction of 8% that that are potential customers of paid for mods. Together they comprise well over 92% of their customers.

The VAST majority of Bethesda's customers are not part of the modding community. This community, both for and against paid for modding, is a very small minority of Skyrim players.

Some here have completely lost perspective on their relative importance to the success of Bethesda. Some have claimed, against all evidence, that Bethesda's success is somehow dependent upon mods and modding in general. This does not empirically seem to be the case.

Even if all who oppose paid for mods boycotted Bethesda they would see, at most, a few percent drop in sales of their game. A drop that may very well be more than made up for with increases in revenue from mods and those that may very well purchase their game due to the ease of use and easy availability of paid for mods.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: And where is Bethesda getting the info that only 8% of people have ever used a mod? How would they know that? Even if they are counting console users with that equation (many of whom ended up buying Skyrim on the PC as well), I find that percentage hard to believe. Are they just going by Steam data? Just looking at the tens of millions of unique downloads on this site alone makes me think the same pencil pusher who came up with that figure is probably the same one who made the Hiroshima-style miscalculation with this pay-for rollout. They need to fire the individual(s) responsible for this abortion of creativity, and because they can't do math.

bullpcp wrote: Vesuvius1745 Triggered! Just kidding.

Total Skyrim units sold 23,270,000

Skryim Sales By Platform
XBox 360 59 %
Playstation 3 27 %
PC 14 %

http://www.statisticbrain.com/skyrim-the-elder-scrolls-v-statistics/

"Only 8% of the Skyrim audience has ever used a mod. Less than 1% has ever made one."
http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/

8% of 23,270,000 would be 1,861,600 units using mods. The highest number of unique downloads is 7,384,353 for Skyrim HD - 2K Textures. I'm not sure how this was calculated but none of these numbers seem to contradict the Blog posts assertions.

I'm assuming they researched the topic. Your assertion seems to be that a multibillion dollar international company, in support of a multibillion dollar franchise, that specifically creates modding tools for the modding community, that has spent years planning on monetizing those mods, and that potentially had many millions of dollars at stake, doesn't know how many people use and create mods because some "pencil pusher" made a statistical error. I think I'll go with Bethesda's statistics.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: "Your assertion seems to be that a multibillion dollar international company, in support of a multibillion dollar franchise, that specifically creates modding tools for the modding community, that has spent years planning on monetizing those mods, and that potentially had many millions of dollars at stake, doesn't know how many people use and create mods because some "pencil pusher" made a statistical error."

You've obviously never worked in the industry. I am an Electronic Arts vet (5 years, Redwood Shores California), and the number of stupid mistakes I saw from people who were paid a lot of money to know better was astounding. But yeah, feel free to believe anything they tell you without question. For me, and presumably others, we require a bit more evidence. And just from a cursory glance, I find their statistics suspect.

bullpcp wrote: You don't have to convince me about how incompetent people can be. But since only 14% of all units sold are PC units, and almost all mods are created for PCs, this would necessarily indicate that a very small minority of their sales are dependent upon mods, modders, or modding community.

Even if 100% of the PC units sold used mods and 100% of those that used mods would not have purchased the unit without mods this would still only comprise 14% of their total sales.

Given that much less than 100% of PC units sold used mods, and far less than 100% of those that used mods would not have otherwise have purchased the product without mods, this would indicate that only a fraction of the 14% PC market are dependent upon the modding community.

These facts would necessarily indicate a possible range of 0%-14% of their sales are dependent on PC purchases and mod usage. My GUESS would be that a only a minority of their PC sales where dependent upon mod usage and that the reality of mod dependence would be at the bottom of the 0%-14% range.

This would indicate that the VAST majority of Skyrim users have never used a mod and that the vast majority of their sales are not dependent on modding. Given that they could have completely eliminated the PC market all together and Skyirm still would have been considered a huge commercial success. Please indicate how given the statistics available that Skyrims success would be dependent upon mods, modders, and the modding community. What combination of conditions, within the given statistical constraints, would indicate Skyrims success is dependent on modding?

I don't see how my interpretation of the data is dependent on Bethesda's accretions of modding statistics. I'm not writing this to diminish the community but to give it perspective. This is a tempest in a teacup. Again, I love mods but I have no illusions that Bethesda needs them to succeed.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also wanted to add that I think you're a smart guy, and although I haven't agreed with your opinions in previous posts, I respect your viewpoint. Now those statistics very well may be correct, but in this instance I think you are just a little too eager to believe what they are telling you without question. I am no expert, but just going by the limited information I have access to I find that 8% figure suspect. That is why I'd be interested in knowing exactly how they came up with it. Since it's the premise for your whole point, I think it's an important detail.

bullpcp wrote: I appreciate the complement. Everyone is as smart as they are, no more no less. Thank you for communicating with respect and without vitriol.

My premise is that only a minority of Skyrim's, and Bethesda's, sales are due to mods, modding, and the modding community and my conclusion would be that mods, modding, and the modding community are of only marginal importance to the success of Skyrim and Bethesda.

The evidence that this premise is based upon is fairly abundant. My post on platform sales data alone, with the assumption of statistically insignificant utilization of non pc platform modding, would indicate an upper limit on mod utilization of 14%. Their assertion of 8% does not seem unreasonable.

My GUESS would be that only 1%-2% or so of their total sales are dependent on modding. Under previous assumptions and constraints PC mod use may be assumed to be around 8%/14% or 57%+. Peace.

bullpcp wrote: EA very nice, much respect.

retnav98 wrote: So it doesn't phase you that the 1.8 million users of mods...each downloaded Skyrim HD 2k textures...roughly 4 times?

I would find that hard to believe if the number was 3.6 million(2x).

Ghatto wrote: Man this is so off-base it's not funny. So what if somehow we knew that only "8% of buyers used mods" it means nothing and has absolutely nothing to do with the system for paying for mods.

Abosultely nothing.

There is no 'potential customers' in that 92% segment. If those in that group wanted to install mods AT ALL then they would not be in that 92%. There's no way that they haven't decided to mod simply because 'they want to pay money'. I mean that just sounds ridiculous.

In fact, I don't know why anybody wants that 92% to just take up modding for apparently extraneous reasons. I'm not saying that I want them to keep out of the community: I'm saying their introduction to modding shouldn't be some hyped up rapid shopping frenzy brought on by the likes of the Workshop/Bethesda/Valve. Other games would probably manage but the with likes of Skyrim these 'customers' will get themselves hurt - games will crash, saves will corrupt, buyers remorse will be heavy.

The very thing that's so sweet about the community of the Nexus here isn't just the lively modding scene that pumps out awesome free mods, it's the robust userbase that works together tirelessly to make sure these mods even function in fragile waif of an engine like Gamebryo. They get the best experiences when, without any money down, can try some mods, get some help/find verbose instructions on using them, and discuss getting it to work with others who a quite simply always in the same boat as them.

Ghatto
Bethesda the instigator of the system disagrees. It was one of the reasons they proposed the paid system to begin with.

 

 

Was it Bethesda that instigated this , that doesn't make sense to me , it would be Bethesda that would be getting the backlash in loss of direct sales of any future titles , while its Valve that has had to deal with the consequences of modding on their Steam platform . Would seem to be they would have a greater interest in seeing paid mods as they are the ones incurring the cost of having to manage them . Albeit as poorly as they do it still must be costing them something.

 

Also I have to call BS on something that people have been saying . This Skyrim PC sales account for only 14% of sales . That number was released 2 days after launch , the numbers were Xbox 360 59% , PS3 27% and PC 14% , thats exactly the same number they report for Skyrim sales almost 4 years after its release ,thats a statistical impossibility that they would remain exactly the same . Numbers always change over time . Plus its interesting to note that Valve will not publish digital PC sales of Skyrim on their Steam platform but will publish Xbox and Playstation . So dont be buying the 14% BS.

bullpcp wrote: Despite all that, it’s still too small in our eyes. Only 8% of the Skyrim audience has ever used a mod. Less than 1% has ever made one.

"http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/"

It's obviously a bit of a PR piece but it is the closest we have to what Bethesda's reasoning was, outside of rampant speculation all over the internet.

bullpcp wrote: I'm a goober but how do you do that cool in response to post ### thing. I wanna play clean like that.

DrakeTheDragon wrote: You're already doing the "in reply to post #..." thing yourself all the time just without you noticing.

These links up ahead is what people get to see when reading this topic on the forums side. It's an internal means to re-create the interconnection between posts in a reply chain like you can see on the file sites, while on the forums side you don't even have the option to "reply".

It is not intended to be visible on the file sites like it is now, but that's what happens when someone replies to a post in a reply chain from the forums side, as this will create a new post out of context and just "quote" the old one. Said quote makes these otherwise hidden links on top also visible on the file sites then.

(That's why I'm always exclusively replying to posts in a news topic from the file sites. 'Replying' to them from the forums side kills the structuring and the reply chains.)

bullpcp wrote: Harbringe

The sales stats come from the following website that cites Bethesda as their source. The stats were last updated April 12th, 2015.

Skyrim Sales Statistics Data
Skyrim units sold in the first 48 hours 3,500,000
Skyrim units sold in the first week release 7,000,000
Skyrim sales in the first week of release $450,000,000
Total Skyrim units sold 23,270,000
Total Skyrim sales revenue $1,390,000,000
Average user review rating 92 / 100
Highest number of concurrent players on Steam 320,000
Skryim Sales By Platform
XBox 360 59 %
Playstation 3 27 %
PC 14 %
Skyrim Load Times
Average XBox load time 48 seconds
Average Playstation 3 load time 34 seconds
Skyrim Development Statistics
Number of years it took to develope Skyrim 3.5 years
Skryim development and marketing budget $85 Million
Number of game developers employed 90
Number of actors employed for character voice overs 83
The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim is an action role-playing open world video game developed by Bethesda Game Studios and published by Bethesda Softworks. It is the fifth installment in The Elder Scrolls action role-playing video game series, following The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. Skyrim was released on November 11, 2011 for Microsoft Windows, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360.

http://www.statisticbrain.com/skyrim-the-elder-scrolls-v-statistics/

If you disagree with these statistics PLEASE indicate why you disagree with them and direct me to a more accurate source. If I'm wrong I want to know.

People seem to be more willing to state their feelings on statistics rather than look up new statistics. We are on the internet.

aegiltheugly wrote: Can I wave my hand at you and say "these are the statistics you're looking for"?

RoboJasonMan wrote: I'm going to throw some alternative statistical estimates out there...
Based on news articles published in January 2014, Bethesda passed the 20 million unit milestone for sales on all platforms.
http://gamerant.com/skyrim-sells-20-million/
Unfortunately, the 14% estimate for PC sales comes from statistical estimates from within the first few days of launch. Since Valve doesn't publicly release their number of sales for games, we have to estimate it. Using web crawlers, the following estimated in April 2014 that Skyrim sold 5.94 million copies on PC: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/04/15/introducing-steam-gauge-ars-reveals-steams-most-popular-games/
Since the two figures were taken near the same time and since this was only a year ago, this seems like a reasonable current estimate. Doing some math, we get that PC sales account for 30% of Skyrim sales, not 14%.
Assuming that
http://www.statisticbrain.com/skyrim-the-elder-scrolls-v-statistics/
is correct on Skyrim's total sales, we would then estimate that there are about 7 million PC sales. Since Skyrim HD alone has about 7.4 million unique downloads, it's reasonable to believe that almost all PC users are mod users.

retnav98 wrote: @RoboJasonMan,

Thank You. Now that the more reasonable number is available, will the Novelists continue. Of course they will. Kinda like the Congressional hearings on Cigarettes, even when faced with the truth...some continued to toe the line.

bullpcp wrote: aegiltheugly
"Can I wave my hand at you and say "these are the statistics you're looking for"?

No, my mind is way too strong for that.

Can I make a completely transparent sophistic plea to your ego and have you believe whatever you "feel" to be correct?

Peace. :)

bullpcp wrote: RoboJasonMan
"I'm going to throw some alternative statistical estimates out there...
Based on news articles published in January 2014, Bethesda passed the 20 million unit milestone for sales on all platforms.
http://gamerant.com/skyrim-sells-20-million/"

The above article cites the below article for the Skyrim statistic.
Jan. 27, 2014
http://time.com/1875/at-20-million-copies-sold-skyrim-is-in-the-top-20-bestselling-games-of-all-time/

Which cites the original at
January 23, 2014 on
http://www.bethblog.com/2014/01/23/the-elder-scrolls-online-voice-cast-revealed/

"Unfortunately, the 14% estimate for PC sales comes from statistical estimates from within the first few days of launch."

It is research dated April 12th, 2015.

Statistic Verification
Source: Bethesda Game Studios, Steam, Zenimax
Research Date: April 12th, 2015

"Since Valve doesn't publicly release their number of sales for games, we have to estimate it."

The source for the above data is reported to be Bethesda, Steam, and Zenimax. Let me reiterate that one of the sources of data was STEAM.

"Using web crawlers, the following estimated in April 2014 that Skyrim sold 5.94 million copies on PC: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/04/15/introducing-steam-gauge-ars-reveals-steams-most-popular-games/
Since the two figures were taken near the same time and since this was only a year ago, this seems like a reasonable current estimate. Doing some math, we get that PC sales account for 30% of Skyrim sales, not 14%.
Assuming that
http://www.statisticbrain.com/skyrim-the-elder-scrolls-v-statistics/"
is correct on Skyrim's total sales, we would then estimate that there are about 7 million PC sales. Since Skyrim HD alone has about 7.4 million unique downloads, it's reasonable to believe that almost all PC users are mod users."

Given that one of the sources of the original 14% statistics researched on April 15, 205 was Steam you would have to come to the conclusion that Steam somehow doesn't know how many units of Skyrim they have sold. Seems unlikely.

Depending upon how they programmed the web crawler they could have counted Skyrim related files incorrectly as the Skyrim game. I don't know how accurate they are. I do know that they are journalists and don't pretend to be otherwise. If they are correct then the total PC sales are much higher than 5.7 million as this only counts those sold through Valve. In this case the total PC users is much higher than 30%... and would contradict all other sets of data I have been able to find by a HUGE margin. My point is that either every other source of data on PC units sold for the last few years, including both Bethesda and Steam, or perhaps total sales as well, are way off OR Ars estimate is. I suspect I know which option you will chose but as for me I’ll follow the data and Occam's razor.

What I do know is that it is statistically invalid to use stats derived from different data sets and piecemeal cobble them together. It is invalid to say that I will use a total of PC units sold from one source, ars, and ignore the PC units sold from another source, statbrain, while still using the total from the other source, statbrain. If statbrains data set and statistical analysis says that only 14% of units sold were on the PC and the total units sold was 23,270,000 then 14% of 23,270,000 or 3,257,800 even if it is wrong. It is not valid to pick the highest percent estimate of PC sales from one data set and ignore it's totals and then combine it with the highest total sales from another data set while ignoring it’s PC estimates.

Peace. :)

Bullpcp:
Allow me to explain somethings to you (from someone who does do statistics btw). First, Statistics Brain doesn't explain their methodology; that is often a sign that the statistics are crap. Second, if it is an estimate, it is a statistic; if it actually counts up total number of sales, it's a parameter. Statistics Brain provides STATISTICAL verification, i.e. the company turns over their partial data and Statistics Brain says "Yes, you did your math correctly." It does not say what the actual values are because the companies themselves do not know. The problem is we don't know when the data (from Bethesda, Zenimax, and Steam) was collected. All that article is saying is that based upon the most recent numbers those companies presented Statistics Brain, those were the numbers they crunched. Bethesda and Steam gave them crap data, Statistics Brain came up with crap numbers. They may have done math in April 2015, but me thinks some of the data was from November 2011.
Okay, now let me break some numbers down for you: the 59% XBox 360, 27% PS3, and 14% PC spread was determined from data collected by Bethesda and Steam a few days after launch. If that is the data they turned over for their estimates, Statistics Brain would calculate out the same statistics. The total number of sales is actually also an estimate; Bethesda estimates it based upon how many units they've sold to stores. If you take about 20 million units sold to stores (the last published sales figures from Bethesda) as the total number of Xbox 360 and PS3 sales and estimate the Steam sales using the 14%, then low and behold you get about 23,260,000 or so estimate for total sales. I know, your mind is blown! What I'm trying to tell you is that the Statistics Brain article is pretty likely based upon crap data and is not accurate.

The arstechnica study firstly explains their research methodology (always a good thing). Nothing in their article suggests a bias of any sort, so their statistic seems somewhat valid. Here is another site that follows the same kind of webcrawler methodology to estimate Steam sales:
http://steamspy.com/
Their estimate for PC sales is even higher: 10,216,018 ± 80,994. They gave their answer with a confidence interval and explained their methodology, so guess what? Their statistic is even more credible. How credible? 95% credible
Btw, it doesn't seem like Steam saves their sales parameters somewhere; they don't have a counter somewhere keeping track of individual purchases. They would have to use the same webcrawler method to estimate their number of sales. Or they could just turn over the numbers they already had to Statistics Brain that they counted at an earlier point in time.

Also, I knew using the Stat Brain total for my estimate was "bad." I just didn't have a better estimate. That's also why I tacked on "Assuming that...is correct" to my sentence. It was a conditional statement, so it's logically valid lol.

Oh and Occam's Razor violates all sorts of laws of deductive and inductive logic; it's better not to use it FYI. It's just a rule of thumb to help come up with hypotheses in science and is actually fairly meaningless. Sometimes it's misused with competing theories in science, but that's strictly speaking really just a matter of which one is more practical. Edited May 12, 2015 by RoboJasonMan

[whismerhill]

In response to post #25178694.

whismerhill wrote: I see a few problems with paid mods (not donations)
the number 1 being support, if you pay for something you're waiting for something delivered that works
given how complicated mod support can be (in Skyrim at the very least).
I don't think it's a good idea for this very reason.
The only exception would be mods that have nearly zero support (consists of just textures & meshes)
Scripting heavy mods would be potentially a source of huge issues
And what about the tools ? should TES5Edit or Mod Organizer be paid for ?
that would be a huge step backward to make such readily available tools that are clearly nearly impossible to bypass to make a stable mod install ... (unless again you just go for simple mods)

and what about the bug fixing unofficial official patches ?
I'm not even saying : "ho look some would pay for the bug fixing and the others would be stuck with their bugs"
no it goes way beyond that. When you look at the bigger picture on a statistic scale, what makes the unofficial patches so good & successful is that they are nearly universal, if they were nomore it would become a huge mess for all the other mod authors.

forgot to add that paid skyrim mods on steamworkshop also have the problem that steamworkshop inherently introduces
that is : automatic updating midgame
which can be troublesome for script or quest mods

so before going Pay4Mod (on skyrim at least), steamworkshop needs to improve the way it delivers mods by giving more control to mod makers & mod users.

[wulfharth]

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444, #25117929, #25126749, #25130219, #25131554, #25133174, #25134429, #25135179, #25137384, #25138564, #25138789, #25153019, #25167894, #25175704 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote:

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

What do you guys think of a system like this?

<kink removed>

I think you were told not to post it in another thread AND in pm so you can say goodbye to your account. - Micalov.

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote:

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<Link Removed> Micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

@Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote:

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<link removed> micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote:

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<kink removed> Micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

@wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote:

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<kink removed> Micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote:

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<kink removed> Micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote:

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<kink removed> Micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

Vesuvius1745 wrote:

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<kink removed> Micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote: Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.

And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.

wulfharth wrote:

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444, #25117929 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<kink removed> Micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote: Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.

And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.

Unfortunately, when you pick a side you bear the sins of the hate mob with whom you've sided. That's why Dark0ne is remaining neutral. And if you read the above posts, I tried to keep my disdain general, until I got called a narcissist. The truth hurts man.

I haven't quit modding. I mod twice as much now as I did before this fiasco. I just quit giving it away because Bethesda wants us to get paid, and I feel under appreciated.

Let me ask you both this: If I found a legal way to put a dlc sized mod behind a donate wall and 95% of the money went to mod authors, would you see a problem with that implementation? If so, please explain. Also, the mod will be free to the public when it's done.

retnav98 wrote:

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444, #25117929, #25126749 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<link removed> Micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote: Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.

And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.

wulfharth wrote: Unfortunately, when you pick a side you bear the sins of the hate mob with whom you've sided. That's why Dark0ne is remaining neutral. And if you read the above posts, I tried to keep my disdain general, until I got called a narcissist. The truth hurts man.

I haven't quit modding. I mod twice as much now as I did before this fiasco. I just quit giving it away because Bethesda wants us to get paid, and I feel under appreciated.

Let me ask you both this: If I found a legal way to put a dlc sized mod behind a donate wall and 95% of the money went to mod authors, would you see a problem with that implementation? If so, please explain. Also, the mod will be free to the public when it's done.

The truth is YOU Wulf' chose your words...not the comunity. Whether 'You' is singular or plural...your choice of words never made a distinction between those who's motives were completely selfish and those who didn't enter into the fray at all. To make so glaring an oversight , not even hinting at a contrast, and then even when acknowledging a difference adjudging that a SIDE was chosen...is simply 'Doubling Down' on your failed perspective.

Your 'If / Then' proposal I assume is referring to profit after cost. (You can't possibly believe that costs can be reduced to 5%). As I have stated before, I have no right to tell a Modder how much is FAIR. The Market does that...

What you need to understand is the MARKET also includes those who will take FAR more than what is deserved...and in the REAL scenario, those who fall under that description weren't just the segment of the comunity who were AGAINST monetization .

wulfharth wrote:

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444, #25117929, #25126749, #25130219 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<link removed> micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote: Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.

And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.

wulfharth wrote: Unfortunately, when you pick a side you bear the sins of the hate mob with whom you've sided. That's why Dark0ne is remaining neutral. And if you read the above posts, I tried to keep my disdain general, until I got called a narcissist. The truth hurts man.

I haven't quit modding. I mod twice as much now as I did before this fiasco. I just quit giving it away because Bethesda wants us to get paid, and I feel under appreciated.

Let me ask you both this: If I found a legal way to put a dlc sized mod behind a donate wall and 95% of the money went to mod authors, would you see a problem with that implementation? If so, please explain. Also, the mod will be free to the public when it's done.

retnav98 wrote: The truth is YOU Wulf' chose your words...not the comunity. Whether 'You' is singular or plural...your choice of words never made a distinction between those who's motives were completely selfish and those who didn't enter into the fray at all. To make so glaring an oversight , not even hinting at a contrast, and then even when acknowledging a difference adjudging that a SIDE was chosen...is simply 'Doubling Down' on your failed perspective.

Your 'If / Then' proposal I assume is referring to profit after cost. (You can't possibly believe that costs can be reduced to 5%). As I have stated before, I have no right to tell a Modder how much is FAIR. The Market does that...

What you need to understand is the MARKET also includes those who will take FAR more than what is deserved...and in the REAL scenario, those who fall under that description weren't just the segment of the comunity who were AGAINST monetization .

I'm not going to say that every paid modder had the best of intentions, but I will say they deserve the right to seek compensation. I'm not saying you're a jerk because you disagree. But it would make my life easier if you did. :smile:

In the system I'm proposing there is technically zero profit (free mod) and the 5% is for hosting costs. The 95% is payroll to the artists. So the cost is technically 100%. It's not really a hypothetical. There is one mod like this now. I would link but I'm on my phone.

retnav98 wrote:

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444, #25117929, #25126749, #25130219, #25131554 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<link removed> micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote: Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.

And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.

wulfharth wrote: Unfortunately, when you pick a side you bear the sins of the hate mob with whom you've sided. That's why Dark0ne is remaining neutral. And if you read the above posts, I tried to keep my disdain general, until I got called a narcissist. The truth hurts man.

I haven't quit modding. I mod twice as much now as I did before this fiasco. I just quit giving it away because Bethesda wants us to get paid, and I feel under appreciated.

Let me ask you both this: If I found a legal way to put a dlc sized mod behind a donate wall and 95% of the money went to mod authors, would you see a problem with that implementation? If so, please explain. Also, the mod will be free to the public when it's done.

retnav98 wrote: The truth is YOU Wulf' chose your words...not the comunity. Whether 'You' is singular or plural...your choice of words never made a distinction between those who's motives were completely selfish and those who didn't enter into the fray at all. To make so glaring an oversight , not even hinting at a contrast, and then even when acknowledging a difference adjudging that a SIDE was chosen...is simply 'Doubling Down' on your failed perspective.

Your 'If / Then' proposal I assume is referring to profit after cost. (You can't possibly believe that costs can be reduced to 5%). As I have stated before, I have no right to tell a Modder how much is FAIR. The Market does that...

What you need to understand is the MARKET also includes those who will take FAR more than what is deserved...and in the REAL scenario, those who fall under that description weren't just the segment of the comunity who were AGAINST monetization .

wulfharth wrote: I'm not going to say that every paid modder had the best of intentions, but I will say they deserve the right to seek compensation. I'm not saying you're a jerk because you disagree. But it would make my life easier if you did. :smile:

In the system I'm proposing there is technically zero profit (free mod) and the 5% is for hosting costs. The 95% is payroll to the artists. So the cost is technically 100%. It's not really a hypothetical. There is one mod like this now. I would link but I'm on my phone.

I wasn't specifically referring to modders...Valve has a 75% market share....Let that sink in a second...3/4 of ALL games sold on the internet are marketed through ONE source...

That source competes indirectly with sites like Nexus and ModDB and Torrent and a variety of sites that simply offer reviews and tutorials. Some don't charge for membership and privilege, some do but they offer data that keeps users from being exposed to the STEAM sales pitch...the game sales...the cards, the Indy game releases, the forums.If the community isn't logged in to STEAM..STEAM is losing money...So disabling those sites...brings the user back to "The WalMart of Gaming".

Up until recently, Bethesda had literally forgotten Skyrim. Then out of the blue...they work with STEAM to change the CK... Bethesda was brought into this by Valve on the promise of renewed revenues. If it had worked, STEAM would get those modders and the community that had migrated away...to return... The benefit to them was the percentage of profit leveraged with minimal exposure to cost...but the REAL benefit is the amount of people returned to the larger marketplace...spending money on things OTHER THAN mods for Skyrim.

Vesuvius1745 wrote:

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444, #25117929, #25126749, #25130219, #25131554, #25133174 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<link removed> micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote: Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.

And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.

wulfharth wrote: Unfortunately, when you pick a side you bear the sins of the hate mob with whom you've sided. That's why Dark0ne is remaining neutral. And if you read the above posts, I tried to keep my disdain general, until I got called a narcissist. The truth hurts man.

I haven't quit modding. I mod twice as much now as I did before this fiasco. I just quit giving it away because Bethesda wants us to get paid, and I feel under appreciated.

Let me ask you both this: If I found a legal way to put a dlc sized mod behind a donate wall and 95% of the money went to mod authors, would you see a problem with that implementation? If so, please explain. Also, the mod will be free to the public when it's done.

retnav98 wrote: The truth is YOU Wulf' chose your words...not the comunity. Whether 'You' is singular or plural...your choice of words never made a distinction between those who's motives were completely selfish and those who didn't enter into the fray at all. To make so glaring an oversight , not even hinting at a contrast, and then even when acknowledging a difference adjudging that a SIDE was chosen...is simply 'Doubling Down' on your failed perspective.

Your 'If / Then' proposal I assume is referring to profit after cost. (You can't possibly believe that costs can be reduced to 5%). As I have stated before, I have no right to tell a Modder how much is FAIR. The Market does that...

What you need to understand is the MARKET also includes those who will take FAR more than what is deserved...and in the REAL scenario, those who fall under that description weren't just the segment of the comunity who were AGAINST monetization .

wulfharth wrote: I'm not going to say that every paid modder had the best of intentions, but I will say they deserve the right to seek compensation. I'm not saying you're a jerk because you disagree. But it would make my life easier if you did. :smile:

In the system I'm proposing there is technically zero profit (free mod) and the 5% is for hosting costs. The 95% is payroll to the artists. So the cost is technically 100%. It's not really a hypothetical. There is one mod like this now. I would link but I'm on my phone.

retnav98 wrote: I wasn't specifically referring to modders...Valve has a 75% market share....Let that sink in a second...3/4 of ALL games sold on the internet are marketed through ONE source...

That source competes indirectly with sites like Nexus and ModDB and Torrent and a variety of sites that simply offer reviews and tutorials. Some don't charge for membership and privilege, some do but they offer data that keeps users from being exposed to the STEAM sales pitch...the game sales...the cards, the Indy game releases, the forums.If the community isn't logged in to STEAM..STEAM is losing money...So disabling those sites...brings the user back to "The WalMart of Gaming".

Up until recently, Bethesda had literally forgotten Skyrim. Then out of the blue...they work with STEAM to change the CK... Bethesda was brought into this by Valve on the promise of renewed revenues. If it had worked, STEAM would get those modders and the community that had migrated away...to return... The benefit to them was the percentage of profit leveraged with minimal exposure to cost...but the REAL benefit is the amount of people returned to the larger marketplace...spending money on things OTHER THAN mods for Skyrim.

I support donating to mod authors. I'd donate for SkyWind.

wulfharth wrote:

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444, #25117929, #25126749, #25130219, #25131554, #25133174, #25134429 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<link removed> micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote: Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.

And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.

wulfharth wrote: Unfortunately, when you pick a side you bear the sins of the hate mob with whom you've sided. That's why Dark0ne is remaining neutral. And if you read the above posts, I tried to keep my disdain general, until I got called a narcissist. The truth hurts man.

I haven't quit modding. I mod twice as much now as I did before this fiasco. I just quit giving it away because Bethesda wants us to get paid, and I feel under appreciated.

Let me ask you both this: If I found a legal way to put a dlc sized mod behind a donate wall and 95% of the money went to mod authors, would you see a problem with that implementation? If so, please explain. Also, the mod will be free to the public when it's done.

retnav98 wrote: The truth is YOU Wulf' chose your words...not the comunity. Whether 'You' is singular or plural...your choice of words never made a distinction between those who's motives were completely selfish and those who didn't enter into the fray at all. To make so glaring an oversight , not even hinting at a contrast, and then even when acknowledging a difference adjudging that a SIDE was chosen...is simply 'Doubling Down' on your failed perspective.

Your 'If / Then' proposal I assume is referring to profit after cost. (You can't possibly believe that costs can be reduced to 5%). As I have stated before, I have no right to tell a Modder how much is FAIR. The Market does that...

What you need to understand is the MARKET also includes those who will take FAR more than what is deserved...and in the REAL scenario, those who fall under that description weren't just the segment of the comunity who were AGAINST monetization .

wulfharth wrote: I'm not going to say that every paid modder had the best of intentions, but I will say they deserve the right to seek compensation. I'm not saying you're a jerk because you disagree. But it would make my life easier if you did. :smile:

In the system I'm proposing there is technically zero profit (free mod) and the 5% is for hosting costs. The 95% is payroll to the artists. So the cost is technically 100%. It's not really a hypothetical. There is one mod like this now. I would link but I'm on my phone.

retnav98 wrote: I wasn't specifically referring to modders...Valve has a 75% market share....Let that sink in a second...3/4 of ALL games sold on the internet are marketed through ONE source...

That source competes indirectly with sites like Nexus and ModDB and Torrent and a variety of sites that simply offer reviews and tutorials. Some don't charge for membership and privilege, some do but they offer data that keeps users from being exposed to the STEAM sales pitch...the game sales...the cards, the Indy game releases, the forums.If the community isn't logged in to STEAM..STEAM is losing money...So disabling those sites...brings the user back to "The WalMart of Gaming".

Up until recently, Bethesda had literally forgotten Skyrim. Then out of the blue...they work with STEAM to change the CK... Bethesda was brought into this by Valve on the promise of renewed revenues. If it had worked, STEAM would get those modders and the community that had migrated away...to return... The benefit to them was the percentage of profit leveraged with minimal exposure to cost...but the REAL benefit is the amount of people returned to the larger marketplace...spending money on things OTHER THAN mods for Skyrim.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I support donating to mod authors. I'd donate for SkyWind.

I get a chuckle out of the fact that Zenimax dodged the bullet on this one. They are Bethesda's sue happy money grubbing evil overlords. I would say the whole thing came from them.

All of that is moot now. I'm talking about bigger better mods being developed and funded through kickstarter. It has happened and will again. Steam gets nothing. Bethesda gets nothing. It all goes to the modders(-5%). That is the hosting fee.

If you are a modder that has no faith in the pointless donate button and want to receive fair compensation. Build up a team and start a mod on Kickstarter. Tiny money grab mods need not apply.

retnav98 wrote:

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444, #25117929, #25126749, #25130219, #25131554, #25133174, #25134429, #25135179 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<link removed> micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote: Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.

And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.

wulfharth wrote: Unfortunately, when you pick a side you bear the sins of the hate mob with whom you've sided. That's why Dark0ne is remaining neutral. And if you read the above posts, I tried to keep my disdain general, until I got called a narcissist. The truth hurts man.

I haven't quit modding. I mod twice as much now as I did before this fiasco. I just quit giving it away because Bethesda wants us to get paid, and I feel under appreciated.

Let me ask you both this: If I found a legal way to put a dlc sized mod behind a donate wall and 95% of the money went to mod authors, would you see a problem with that implementation? If so, please explain. Also, the mod will be free to the public when it's done.

retnav98 wrote: The truth is YOU Wulf' chose your words...not the comunity. Whether 'You' is singular or plural...your choice of words never made a distinction between those who's motives were completely selfish and those who didn't enter into the fray at all. To make so glaring an oversight , not even hinting at a contrast, and then even when acknowledging a difference adjudging that a SIDE was chosen...is simply 'Doubling Down' on your failed perspective.

Your 'If / Then' proposal I assume is referring to profit after cost. (You can't possibly believe that costs can be reduced to 5%). As I have stated before, I have no right to tell a Modder how much is FAIR. The Market does that...

What you need to understand is the MARKET also includes those who will take FAR more than what is deserved...and in the REAL scenario, those who fall under that description weren't just the segment of the comunity who were AGAINST monetization .

wulfharth wrote: I'm not going to say that every paid modder had the best of intentions, but I will say they deserve the right to seek compensation. I'm not saying you're a jerk because you disagree. But it would make my life easier if you did. :smile:

In the system I'm proposing there is technically zero profit (free mod) and the 5% is for hosting costs. The 95% is payroll to the artists. So the cost is technically 100%. It's not really a hypothetical. There is one mod like this now. I would link but I'm on my phone.

retnav98 wrote: I wasn't specifically referring to modders...Valve has a 75% market share....Let that sink in a second...3/4 of ALL games sold on the internet are marketed through ONE source...

That source competes indirectly with sites like Nexus and ModDB and Torrent and a variety of sites that simply offer reviews and tutorials. Some don't charge for membership and privilege, some do but they offer data that keeps users from being exposed to the STEAM sales pitch...the game sales...the cards, the Indy game releases, the forums.If the community isn't logged in to STEAM..STEAM is losing money...So disabling those sites...brings the user back to "The WalMart of Gaming".

Up until recently, Bethesda had literally forgotten Skyrim. Then out of the blue...they work with STEAM to change the CK... Bethesda was brought into this by Valve on the promise of renewed revenues. If it had worked, STEAM would get those modders and the community that had migrated away...to return... The benefit to them was the percentage of profit leveraged with minimal exposure to cost...but the REAL benefit is the amount of people returned to the larger marketplace...spending money on things OTHER THAN mods for Skyrim.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I support donating to mod authors. I'd donate for SkyWind.

wulfharth wrote: I get a chuckle out of the fact that Zenimax dodged the bullet on this one. They are Bethesda's sue happy money grubbing evil overlords. I would say the whole thing came from them.

All of that is moot now. I'm talking about bigger better mods being developed and funded through kickstarter. It has happened and will again. Steam gets nothing. Bethesda gets nothing. It all goes to the modders(-5%). That is the hosting fee.

If you are a modder that has no faith in the pointless donate button and want to receive fair compensation. Build up a team and start a mod on Kickstarter. Tiny money grab mods need not apply.

And that will work just fine...until it grows to the point that those who own the rights to the Game...decide the assets being generated, exceed the cost to litigate...

Robin/NEXUS has 9 million users. He has to go 'hat in hand' to Bethesda because his potential to take significant revenue is VERY REAL...Bethesda would Stomp a MUDHOLE in his ASS if there was ever a sense that NEXUS was anything but a BENEFIT to them.

wulfharth wrote:

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444, #25117929, #25126749, #25130219, #25131554, #25133174, #25134429, #25135179, #25137384 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<kink removed> Micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote: Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.

And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.

wulfharth wrote: Unfortunately, when you pick a side you bear the sins of the hate mob with whom you've sided. That's why Dark0ne is remaining neutral. And if you read the above posts, I tried to keep my disdain general, until I got called a narcissist. The truth hurts man.

I haven't quit modding. I mod twice as much now as I did before this fiasco. I just quit giving it away because Bethesda wants us to get paid, and I feel under appreciated.

Let me ask you both this: If I found a legal way to put a dlc sized mod behind a donate wall and 95% of the money went to mod authors, would you see a problem with that implementation? If so, please explain. Also, the mod will be free to the public when it's done.

retnav98 wrote: The truth is YOU Wulf' chose your words...not the comunity. Whether 'You' is singular or plural...your choice of words never made a distinction between those who's motives were completely selfish and those who didn't enter into the fray at all. To make so glaring an oversight , not even hinting at a contrast, and then even when acknowledging a difference adjudging that a SIDE was chosen...is simply 'Doubling Down' on your failed perspective.

Your 'If / Then' proposal I assume is referring to profit after cost. (You can't possibly believe that costs can be reduced to 5%). As I have stated before, I have no right to tell a Modder how much is FAIR. The Market does that...

What you need to understand is the MARKET also includes those who will take FAR more than what is deserved...and in the REAL scenario, those who fall under that description weren't just the segment of the comunity who were AGAINST monetization .

wulfharth wrote: I'm not going to say that every paid modder had the best of intentions, but I will say they deserve the right to seek compensation. I'm not saying you're a jerk because you disagree. But it would make my life easier if you did. :smile:

In the system I'm proposing there is technically zero profit (free mod) and the 5% is for hosting costs. The 95% is payroll to the artists. So the cost is technically 100%. It's not really a hypothetical. There is one mod like this now. I would link but I'm on my phone.

retnav98 wrote: I wasn't specifically referring to modders...Valve has a 75% market share....Let that sink in a second...3/4 of ALL games sold on the internet are marketed through ONE source...

That source competes indirectly with sites like Nexus and ModDB and Torrent and a variety of sites that simply offer reviews and tutorials. Some don't charge for membership and privilege, some do but they offer data that keeps users from being exposed to the STEAM sales pitch...the game sales...the cards, the Indy game releases, the forums.If the community isn't logged in to STEAM..STEAM is losing money...So disabling those sites...brings the user back to "The WalMart of Gaming".

Up until recently, Bethesda had literally forgotten Skyrim. Then out of the blue...they work with STEAM to change the CK... Bethesda was brought into this by Valve on the promise of renewed revenues. If it had worked, STEAM would get those modders and the community that had migrated away...to return... The benefit to them was the percentage of profit leveraged with minimal exposure to cost...but the REAL benefit is the amount of people returned to the larger marketplace...spending money on things OTHER THAN mods for Skyrim.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I support donating to mod authors. I'd donate for SkyWind.

wulfharth wrote: I get a chuckle out of the fact that Zenimax dodged the bullet on this one. They are Bethesda's sue happy money grubbing evil overlords. I would say the whole thing came from them.

All of that is moot now. I'm talking about bigger better mods being developed and funded through kickstarter. It has happened and will again. Steam gets nothing. Bethesda gets nothing. It all goes to the modders(-5%). That is the hosting fee.

If you are a modder that has no faith in the pointless donate button and want to receive fair compensation. Build up a team and start a mod on Kickstarter. Tiny money grab mods need not apply.

retnav98 wrote: And that will work just fine...until it grows to the point that those who own the rights to the Game...decide the assets being generated, exceed the cost to litigate...

Robin/NEXUS has 9 million users. He has to go 'hat in hand' to Bethesda because his potential to take significant revenue is VERY REAL...Bethesda would Stomp a MUDHOLE in his ASS if there was ever a sense that NEXUS was anything but a BENEFIT to them.

Ask Zenimax/Bethesda how well that worked out for them when they went after the oculus rift kickstarter. They got their little butts polished. In America the worker has plenty of rights. A company can't just take your work. They will try though. If anything, they can ask for a cut or buy the rights. That's about it. seeing as they violated their own EULA, it wouldn't be useful in court.

Vesuvius- you can donate to Skywind. They need to pay a lot in hosting fees. I gave them $50 a few months back. Go check out what they're working on. It's impressive.

retnav98 wrote:

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444, #25117929, #25126749, #25130219, #25131554, #25133174, #25134429, #25135179, #25137384, #25138564 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<kink removed> Micalov

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote: Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.

And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.

wulfharth wrote: Unfortunately, when you pick a side you bear the sins of the hate mob with whom you've sided. That's why Dark0ne is remaining neutral. And if you read the above posts, I tried to keep my disdain general, until I got called a narcissist. The truth hurts man.

I haven't quit modding. I mod twice as much now as I did before this fiasco. I just quit giving it away because Bethesda wants us to get paid, and I feel under appreciated.

Let me ask you both this: If I found a legal way to put a dlc sized mod behind a donate wall and 95% of the money went to mod authors, would you see a problem with that implementation? If so, please explain. Also, the mod will be free to the public when it's done.

retnav98 wrote: The truth is YOU Wulf' chose your words...not the comunity. Whether 'You' is singular or plural...your choice of words never made a distinction between those who's motives were completely selfish and those who didn't enter into the fray at all. To make so glaring an oversight , not even hinting at a contrast, and then even when acknowledging a difference adjudging that a SIDE was chosen...is simply 'Doubling Down' on your failed perspective.

Your 'If / Then' proposal I assume is referring to profit after cost. (You can't possibly believe that costs can be reduced to 5%). As I have stated before, I have no right to tell a Modder how much is FAIR. The Market does that...

What you need to understand is the MARKET also includes those who will take FAR more than what is deserved...and in the REAL scenario, those who fall under that description weren't just the segment of the comunity who were AGAINST monetization .

wulfharth wrote: I'm not going to say that every paid modder had the best of intentions, but I will say they deserve the right to seek compensation. I'm not saying you're a jerk because you disagree. But it would make my life easier if you did. :smile:

In the system I'm proposing there is technically zero profit (free mod) and the 5% is for hosting costs. The 95% is payroll to the artists. So the cost is technically 100%. It's not really a hypothetical. There is one mod like this now. I would link but I'm on my phone.

retnav98 wrote: I wasn't specifically referring to modders...Valve has a 75% market share....Let that sink in a second...3/4 of ALL games sold on the internet are marketed through ONE source...

That source competes indirectly with sites like Nexus and ModDB and Torrent and a variety of sites that simply offer reviews and tutorials. Some don't charge for membership and privilege, some do but they offer data that keeps users from being exposed to the STEAM sales pitch...the game sales...the cards, the Indy game releases, the forums.If the community isn't logged in to STEAM..STEAM is losing money...So disabling those sites...brings the user back to "The WalMart of Gaming".

Up until recently, Bethesda had literally forgotten Skyrim. Then out of the blue...they work with STEAM to change the CK... Bethesda was brought into this by Valve on the promise of renewed revenues. If it had worked, STEAM would get those modders and the community that had migrated away...to return... The benefit to them was the percentage of profit leveraged with minimal exposure to cost...but the REAL benefit is the amount of people returned to the larger marketplace...spending money on things OTHER THAN mods for Skyrim.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I support donating to mod authors. I'd donate for SkyWind.

wulfharth wrote: I get a chuckle out of the fact that Zenimax dodged the bullet on this one. They are Bethesda's sue happy money grubbing evil overlords. I would say the whole thing came from them.

All of that is moot now. I'm talking about bigger better mods being developed and funded through kickstarter. It has happened and will again. Steam gets nothing. Bethesda gets nothing. It all goes to the modders(-5%). That is the hosting fee.

If you are a modder that has no faith in the pointless donate button and want to receive fair compensation. Build up a team and start a mod on Kickstarter. Tiny money grab mods need not apply.

retnav98 wrote: And that will work just fine...until it grows to the point that those who own the rights to the Game...decide the assets being generated, exceed the cost to litigate...

Robin/NEXUS has 9 million users. He has to go 'hat in hand' to Bethesda because his potential to take significant revenue is VERY REAL...Bethesda would Stomp a MUDHOLE in his ASS if there was ever a sense that NEXUS was anything but a BENEFIT to them.

wulfharth wrote: Ask Zenimax/Bethesda how well that worked out for them when they went after the oculus rift kickstarter. They got their little butts polished. In America the worker has plenty of rights. A company can't just take your work. They will try though. If anything, they can ask for a cut or buy the rights. That's about it. seeing as they violated their own EULA, it wouldn't be useful in court.

Vesuvius- you can donate to Skywind. They need to pay a lot in hosting fees. I gave them $50 a few months back. Go check out what they're working on. It's impressive.

I've heard this said before and I don't understand it completely...If the owner of the property amends their EULA for their purposes, that doesn't void their rights does it? If they subsequently terminate the the action that amended the EULA, they still retain rights do they not?

I just don't see how they violated any agreement...the EULA is not an agreement to themselves.

EDIT:

I read up on Oculus Rift .. Luckey had established a pre-existing body of work. It amounted to a product that really needed only aesthetic changes and backing to market...Zenimax's claim was capricious and foolhardy, but it may have been an attempt to do more than just cash in on the Facebook investment... However the decision came about the result was an epic fail.
It may point to greed...or POOR business decision making, but the arguement that Zenimax only brought suit when "Deep Pocket" emerged, is an irony since MOST suits are brought because there is money being lost or money to be gained.

wulfharth wrote:

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444, #25117929, #25126749, #25130219, #25131554, #25133174, #25134429, #25135179, #25137384, #25138564, #25138789 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<link removed> Micalov
The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote: Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.

And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.

wulfharth wrote: Unfortunately, when you pick a side you bear the sins of the hate mob with whom you've sided. That's why Dark0ne is remaining neutral. And if you read the above posts, I tried to keep my disdain general, until I got called a narcissist. The truth hurts man.

I haven't quit modding. I mod twice as much now as I did before this fiasco. I just quit giving it away because Bethesda wants us to get paid, and I feel under appreciated.

Let me ask you both this: If I found a legal way to put a dlc sized mod behind a donate wall and 95% of the money went to mod authors, would you see a problem with that implementation? If so, please explain. Also, the mod will be free to the public when it's done.

retnav98 wrote: The truth is YOU Wulf' chose your words...not the comunity. Whether 'You' is singular or plural...your choice of words never made a distinction between those who's motives were completely selfish and those who didn't enter into the fray at all. To make so glaring an oversight , not even hinting at a contrast, and then even when acknowledging a difference adjudging that a SIDE was chosen...is simply 'Doubling Down' on your failed perspective.

Your 'If / Then' proposal I assume is referring to profit after cost. (You can't possibly believe that costs can be reduced to 5%). As I have stated before, I have no right to tell a Modder how much is FAIR. The Market does that...

What you need to understand is the MARKET also includes those who will take FAR more than what is deserved...and in the REAL scenario, those who fall under that description weren't just the segment of the comunity who were AGAINST monetization .

wulfharth wrote: I'm not going to say that every paid modder had the best of intentions, but I will say they deserve the right to seek compensation. I'm not saying you're a jerk because you disagree. But it would make my life easier if you did. :smile:

In the system I'm proposing there is technically zero profit (free mod) and the 5% is for hosting costs. The 95% is payroll to the artists. So the cost is technically 100%. It's not really a hypothetical. There is one mod like this now. I would link but I'm on my phone.

retnav98 wrote: I wasn't specifically referring to modders...Valve has a 75% market share....Let that sink in a second...3/4 of ALL games sold on the internet are marketed through ONE source...

That source competes indirectly with sites like Nexus and ModDB and Torrent and a variety of sites that simply offer reviews and tutorials. Some don't charge for membership and privilege, some do but they offer data that keeps users from being exposed to the STEAM sales pitch...the game sales...the cards, the Indy game releases, the forums.If the community isn't logged in to STEAM..STEAM is losing money...So disabling those sites...brings the user back to "The WalMart of Gaming".

Up until recently, Bethesda had literally forgotten Skyrim. Then out of the blue...they work with STEAM to change the CK... Bethesda was brought into this by Valve on the promise of renewed revenues. If it had worked, STEAM would get those modders and the community that had migrated away...to return... The benefit to them was the percentage of profit leveraged with minimal exposure to cost...but the REAL benefit is the amount of people returned to the larger marketplace...spending money on things OTHER THAN mods for Skyrim.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I support donating to mod authors. I'd donate for SkyWind.

wulfharth wrote: I get a chuckle out of the fact that Zenimax dodged the bullet on this one. They are Bethesda's sue happy money grubbing evil overlords. I would say the whole thing came from them.

All of that is moot now. I'm talking about bigger better mods being developed and funded through kickstarter. It has happened and will again. Steam gets nothing. Bethesda gets nothing. It all goes to the modders(-5%). That is the hosting fee.

If you are a modder that has no faith in the pointless donate button and want to receive fair compensation. Build up a team and start a mod on Kickstarter. Tiny money grab mods need not apply.

retnav98 wrote: And that will work just fine...until it grows to the point that those who own the rights to the Game...decide the assets being generated, exceed the cost to litigate...

Robin/NEXUS has 9 million users. He has to go 'hat in hand' to Bethesda because his potential to take significant revenue is VERY REAL...Bethesda would Stomp a MUDHOLE in his ASS if there was ever a sense that NEXUS was anything but a BENEFIT to them.

wulfharth wrote: Ask Zenimax/Bethesda how well that worked out for them when they went after the oculus rift kickstarter. They got their little butts polished. In America the worker has plenty of rights. A company can't just take your work. They will try though. If anything, they can ask for a cut or buy the rights. That's about it. seeing as they violated their own EULA, it wouldn't be useful in court.

Vesuvius- you can donate to Skywind. They need to pay a lot in hosting fees. I gave them $50 a few months back. Go check out what they're working on. It's impressive.

retnav98 wrote: I've heard this said before and I don't understand it completely...If the owner of the property amends their EULA for their purposes, that doesn't void their rights does it? If they subsequently terminate the the action that amended the EULA, they still retain rights do they not?

I just don't see how they violated any agreement...the EULA is not an agreement to themselves.

EDIT:

I read up on Oculus Rift .. Luckey had established a pre-existing body of work. It amounted to a product that really needed only aesthetic changes and backing to market...Zenimax's claim was capricious and foolhardy, but it may have been an attempt to do more than just cash in on the Facebook investment... However the decision came about the result was an epic fail.
It may point to greed...or POOR business decision making, but the arguement that Zenimax only brought suit when "Deep Pocket" emerged, is an irony since MOST suits are brought because there is money being lost or money to be gained.

Agreements work in both directions. They can't say, "You can't own mods, so you can't sell them." Then say,"We changed our mind. You can sell them." Then say,"No let's go back to the first standard." After amending it once, they would have had to reissue a new EULA, and everyone would have had to click agree. They threw away their own contract so the doors are now wide open.

Of course it doesn't matter. Donations that go to individuals to compensate them for their time and effort aren't profits. They can try to sue for 0% profit, but that would be silly. Additionally, if I make a model in 3ds max, sculpt it in ZBrush, and composite my textures in Photoshop, they would have to compensate me for all three programs before laying claim to that model. That software is very expensive.

wulfharth wrote: I guess we will find out if they are sue happy or not soon enough. I went live this morning.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/accessionsoft/shadowcast-an-expansion-mod-for-skyrim

cmkawasaki wrote:

In response to post #25025599. #25028149, #25035034, #25047559, #25047774, #25048554, #25050269, #25099939, #25101949, #25103094, #25103539, #25108729, #25109249, #25110729, #25114309, #25115444, #25117929, #25126749, #25130219, #25131554, #25133174, #25134429, #25135179, #25137384, #25138564, #25138789, #25153019, #25167894 are all replies on the same post.

Ariranha wrote: Why don't the publishers themselves pay the modders? After all, many people wouldn't even buy/play some games if it wasn't for the mods. At least the non-hyped gamers, who don't go preordering based on CGI and ads. The publishers profit with the modding community, so they could themselves pay the modders.

- OR -

The gamers could pay the modders as a whole, in advance.

An example on how this could be made: The publishers sell the game and a separate modding tool. Without the modding tool, the gamer wouldn't be able to use mods. The money for the game would go to the companies that made it and the money for the modding tool would go to a common fund for modders. The money on the fund would be shared, periodically, among the registered modders.

"But how would they share the money?" Each modder would receive a fixed amount for each "thumbs up" on its mod. After a certain amount of thumbs, the mod would be evaluated by the company that made the game. Based on this evaluation, the modder would receive a variable amount. Top modders would receive a third amount as a bonus.

"Oh, but this is highly subjective!" As all other criteria would be.

"Oh, but this would be too complex!" As all other paid system to modders would be.

Modders would receive for the good work, the donate button would still exist, the opportunity to release a free mod would still exist, Nexus would still exist, the gamer would still be able to choose to play with or without mods and pay in advance, no part involved in the relation would be treated unfairly.

MrBadboi wrote: Like many mods, they are pieces of art, many times out of passion. When it comes to adding money to the equation. It only complicates things. Like how money and family can complicate things and end up ruining relationships between each other. I'm sure many of us have experienced this.

It would end up dividing the community for those who would want others to pay for their work. No one likes change, I strongly believe things should stay the way they are. If individuals enjoyed a mod enough and consider the time and effort that went in to creating it. Let them self's decide how much they are willing to donate, if they wish to contribute at all financially.

If certain individual's create mods and expect to be paid. Your in the wrong community. Mods should loves of labor not profit.

Ghatto wrote: Pretty simple answer is that it's not a good return on investment.

Even with a well thought out hypothetical like you've provided, it's pretty clear to me that any form of free vs. paid mods would have a remarkable difference in community size. Simply, there'll be a much much lower number of modders and mod-users in any case where mods or mod tools are paid for. A community like here on the Nexus would be a shadow of its current self.

The only situation that will have the least impact is your first hypothetical: where mods and tools are still free, but the publisher pays some modders for whatever arbitrary reason. Since all participants have the same starting point, there's less barriers to entry. However they payments would have to be after the fact (after free mod publish) in order to avoid comparing the releases to licensed DLC and all the employment, and product qualification legalities that come with it. The only way I can think of how this would backfire badly is if the publisher decided to offset payments to modders by having an increased game purchase price (higher barrier to entry).

Vesuvius1745 wrote: You are missing a third option: DO NOTHING. The "system" has worked fine for over a decade without finances and pencil pushing brought into it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But more than that, it's not about a better system, it's about a worse one. Steam was flooded with garbage mods the moment this went up. There were some good mods, but even those had to be stripped down to avoid using resources "borrowed" from others. People were literally paying for mods they can now get for free on the Nexus and which are of higher quality than the pay-for version. In an "open source" community where everybody "borrows" from everybody else, something like this is difficult to implement without killing the golden goose.

So again: the current system isn't broke, and has worked great for over 10 years going all the way back to Morrowind. If something is working great--you leave it alone.

MrBadboi wrote: As you explained, it only creates even more complications. I'm not against people who would like to earn some revenue from their work if possible, I'll state that.

But this who subject is very touchy, things should of been left alone from the start. When ever money gets involved everything ends up getting complicated. We could go in to a long debate about the subject but I' rather not haha..

If it works why change it, everything was fine before steam ever allowed such an option. It's created so much chaos and controversy over the matter. If Bethesda really wants to profit off talented modders. Let them make official DLC's of these mods, that's the only way i see this working, and the proper cuts going to any tools used. For copyright issues, pirating off others has always been around and always will be around, get use to it.

Creating even more DRM around the issue will just create more useless restrictions.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If Bethesdsa REALLY gave a carp about modders, they'd contract the talented ones out to create DLC content for them. But of course they don't. They'd rather the modders do all the work, deal with all the headaches, while Bethesda got most of the money.

AccessionSoft wrote: What do you guys think of a system like this?

<link removed> micalov.

The community can decide to donate directly to the artists to compensate them for their time.

Another question: How many people would make a single dungeon for $50?

farmerflame wrote: @Vesu & @MrBad - Agree with you both. Take SkyWind or Tamriel Rebuilt, or Beyond Skyrim! The vast amount of modders, artists, composers etc working on these huge projects, who are making "dlc"+ sized content, on a much better scale that Bethesda's original DLC!

Why are they doing this? (After all, they get no financial benefit from it, so what bother?)

Because they love the game. Adding money into the equation doesn't equate to better mods. We're getting AMAZING mods (And, looking back from Oblivion, and Morrowind, the mods have only IMPROVED!) NOW. Adding money won't change that. Infact, there will be great modders out there who go: "Ohh, that mod on sale looks good, maybe if I take the idea, use assets and resources from free mods and other modders (With permission), then I can make a better mod, for free!" Boom, that mod now has a better, free version. So why bother paying for it to begin with?

A visible, clear donation button (Perhaps after you endore a mod, for example), is the best way a modder can ever gain income. Several talented modders have gone to do other projects, and their careers have been born from modding - Why the need for change?

I'll give you a personal viewpoint. I make and produce music. I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not amazing. I could quite easily get a record deal, make some cash from it, but would I really enjoy it as much? Deadlines and community expectations (ESPECIALLY when they've paid for something!) hurt your enjoyment of creating something. I do produce for the enjoyment of it, not to make money. Most modders mod, not because they're aiming to get donations or strike rich, or do it as a job, but because they love modding, because it's a hobby they ENJOY.

wulfharth wrote: I quite working on SkyWind after you people showed your appreciation all over Steam. I couldn't bear the thought of continuing to work on that project, knowing what kind of people were going to be enjoying it.

I'm not sure how that fits into your example.

Here's another example to show my perspective:

You have a friend who likes working on cars. You have a little car trouble. He works on your car for free. You have more trouble, he works on it again. At no point do you even offer to buy him some beer for all this free work. You just assume you're doing him a favor because he loves working on cars. One day you have car trouble and he asks you for a little gas money to come and work on your car. You tell him you hate him and he should go kill himself.

That's you guys. Why don't you go ruin someone else's opportunity to support themselves with all your appreciation.

retnav98 wrote: @wulfharth,

So the Mechanic has no other friends that he would gladly help? He simply Quit?

I think your scenario doesn't make your "MECHANIC" look very good either.

wulfharth wrote: This mechanic went ahead and got a job at a successful garage.

I just wanted you all to know why you're walking to the bus stop.

The world is never improved through hate and selfishness. Any victory gained through malice is short lived and hard earned. Enjoy the community you destroyed.

retnav98 wrote: When "I" is only associated with Positive and Honorable and the more general "YOU" is always NEGATIVE...it is called NARCISSISM.

Congratulations on the JOB and best wishes on finding a new friend.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Again and again the same zealots patronising everyone around them, especially those who disagree with them.
Wulfharth, take a look here:

https://andromedacrescent.wordpress.com/

That's the way how you should deal with moral dictators like Retnav or Vesuvius or any other zealot.
They are so blinded in their stupidity that they are to forget, what you want after all, sympathy from trolls ?

Already a huge number of modders have initiated a boycott... just let this "entitled users" to discover how interesting it will be for them.
They think that they have played already most of the mods and they don't need anymore the modders... well, guess again.

wulfharth wrote:
Thank you CaladanAnduril. I appreciate your support. It looks like I just made that new friend I needed.

And thank you Pronoun Police. That was very informative of YOU to share with us. All these years I've stupidly been using "I" to refer to myself and "YOU" to refer to the person or people with whom I was speaking. I didn't realize it was a symptom of a personality disorder. dur dur dur....

The only reason that there was any negativity associated with the YOU, is because you know you are wrong. You know you have acted poorly and split the community. You know it was done in the spirit of self-interest.

You bit the nipple and still expect the milk to flow and improve in quality for some reason.

I do have to thank you all for acting so poorly that I stopped wasting my time giving you free entertainment and applied for a developer job. Your epic tantrum has truly given me strength and improved my life.

You guys just keep being yourselves. You make my world awesome in spite of your intent. I'll see you again when you're digging in your wallet to pay my salary.

I'm done gloating for now. I'll be back the next time someone says something stupid.

5. 4. 3. 2. 1.....

retnav98 wrote: @ Caladan',

First of all I respect you and your right to get paid...but your shortcomings with the English language are no longer something to be set aside. I do NOT agree with Vesuvius and I never have, at least not that I recall.


People were assholes during this ...I WASN'T one of them!

Run that through your translator a few times and MEMORIZE IT. Then go check my previous posts...pay particular attention to the post where I apologized directly to you Caladan' for my part in opposing VALVE.

With that said, I will not suffer ignorance. Those who had NO sense of shame over how they treated MODDERS. are as selfish as those would choose to blame EVERYONE for something that may actually have been cancelled NOT because of the CHILDISH few, but because VALVE had legal issues vis a vis DMCA...

So when yet another Claims to be Boycotting, I have to ask...WHO are you boycotting? Everyone who behaved poorly...or simply EVERYONE.

Are you Boycotting NEXUS, because Dark0ne has made his views very clear. Are you boycotting everyone who doesn't weep at your feet and ask for forgiveness?

retnav98 wrote: Wulfharth,

Check my profile, when was the last download? How many endorsements? YOU Wulf' keep making claims that I adhere to a sense of entitlement,without knowing a thing about me. I haven't Played SKYRIM in nearly a Month. I actually resolved to quit playing before this episode. That choice came as a result of an exchange I had with Elsopa ( ICBINE 1,2,3) It irked me that he was quite affable when people were speaking his praises, but when one spoke of an issue, his first response was , "Obviously, you failed to follow directions".

When I couldn't immediately get his mod to work, I didn't give him a chance. But since this episode, I have come to see that simply endorsing, and commenting isn't enough... we ALL need to be our BETTER SELVES. I apologized to him for my negative attitude.

In addition, I have challenged those who seem to have accepted things as true...Bullcpc continued to push the Idea that Valve offered accurate percentages...but when he was finally shown that the percentages were NOT correct, he simply left. The thing is...Bullcpc is PRO MODDER! and is not against pay mods...our exchange regardless of who was right or wrong CHANGED NOTHING. People who acted so ingraciously, are not here still...people who's Impirical proofs failed are not here either.

The only people still here are Pathetic Old men like me who take Heart Meds and make it outside once a week..and People like YOU who somehow believe that EVERYONE will feel ashamed and regretful because Wulf' and Caldan' have stopped modding.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also am tired of the assumption that anyone opposed to this just wanted free mods. Hardly. The people who want free mods wouldn't waste their time arguing about it because they DON'T CARE. Why don't they care? Because these people will get their mods for free no matter what. Two minutes after the paid-for mods showed up on Steam, they were on various Torrent sites.

And I certainly can afford to buy all the mods I wanted from Steam. Again, that was never the issue. I don't want to rehash my previous posts, but if anyone wanted to understand why people were opposed to this--and not just interested in making assumptions--they are still up to be viewed.

wulfharth wrote: Unfortunately, when you pick a side you bear the sins of the hate mob with whom you've sided. That's why Dark0ne is remaining neutral. And if you read the above posts, I tried to keep my disdain general, until I got called a narcissist. The truth hurts man.

I haven't quit modding. I mod twice as much now as I did before this fiasco. I just quit giving it away because Bethesda wants us to get paid, and I feel under appreciated.

Let me ask you both this: If I found a legal way to put a dlc sized mod behind a donate wall and 95% of the money went to mod authors, would you see a problem with that implementation? If so, please explain. Also, the mod will be free to the public when it's done.

retnav98 wrote: The truth is YOU Wulf' chose your words...not the comunity. Whether 'You' is singular or plural...your choice of words never made a distinction between those who's motives were completely selfish and those who didn't enter into the fray at all. To make so glaring an oversight , not even hinting at a contrast, and then even when acknowledging a difference adjudging that a SIDE was chosen...is simply 'Doubling Down' on your failed perspective.

Your 'If / Then' proposal I assume is referring to profit after cost. (You can't possibly believe that costs can be reduced to 5%). As I have stated before, I have no right to tell a Modder how much is FAIR. The Market does that...

What you need to understand is the MARKET also includes those who will take FAR more than what is deserved...and in the REAL scenario, those who fall under that description weren't just the segment of the comunity who were AGAINST monetization .

wulfharth wrote: I'm not going to say that every paid modder had the best of intentions, but I will say they deserve the right to seek compensation. I'm not saying you're a jerk because you disagree. But it would make my life easier if you did. :smile:

In the system I'm proposing there is technically zero profit (free mod) and the 5% is for hosting costs. The 95% is payroll to the artists. So the cost is technically 100%. It's not really a hypothetical. There is one mod like this now. I would link but I'm on my phone.

retnav98 wrote: I wasn't specifically referring to modders...Valve has a 75% market share....Let that sink in a second...3/4 of ALL games sold on the internet are marketed through ONE source...

That source competes indirectly with sites like Nexus and ModDB and Torrent and a variety of sites that simply offer reviews and tutorials. Some don't charge for membership and privilege, some do but they offer data that keeps users from being exposed to the STEAM sales pitch...the game sales...the cards, the Indy game releases, the forums.If the community isn't logged in to STEAM..STEAM is losing money...So disabling those sites...brings the user back to "The WalMart of Gaming".

Up until recently, Bethesda had literally forgotten Skyrim. Then out of the blue...they work with STEAM to change the CK... Bethesda was brought into this by Valve on the promise of renewed revenues. If it had worked, STEAM would get those modders and the community that had migrated away...to return... The benefit to them was the percentage of profit leveraged with minimal exposure to cost...but the REAL benefit is the amount of people returned to the larger marketplace...spending money on things OTHER THAN mods for Skyrim.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I support donating to mod authors. I'd donate for SkyWind.

wulfharth wrote: I get a chuckle out of the fact that Zenimax dodged the bullet on this one. They are Bethesda's sue happy money grubbing evil overlords. I would say the whole thing came from them.

All of that is moot now. I'm talking about bigger better mods being developed and funded through kickstarter. It has happened and will again. Steam gets nothing. Bethesda gets nothing. It all goes to the modders(-5%). That is the hosting fee.

If you are a modder that has no faith in the pointless donate button and want to receive fair compensation. Build up a team and start a mod on Kickstarter. Tiny money grab mods need not apply.

retnav98 wrote: And that will work just fine...until it grows to the point that those who own the rights to the Game...decide the assets being generated, exceed the cost to litigate...

Robin/NEXUS has 9 million users. He has to go 'hat in hand' to Bethesda because his potential to take significant revenue is VERY REAL...Bethesda would Stomp a MUDHOLE in his ASS if there was ever a sense that NEXUS was anything but a BENEFIT to them.

wulfharth wrote: Ask Zenimax/Bethesda how well that worked out for them when they went after the oculus rift kickstarter. They got their little butts polished. In America the worker has plenty of rights. A company can't just take your work. They will try though. If anything, they can ask for a cut or buy the rights. That's about it. seeing as they violated their own EULA, it wouldn't be useful in court.

Vesuvius- you can donate to Skywind. They need to pay a lot in hosting fees. I gave them $50 a few months back. Go check out what they're working on. It's impressive.

retnav98 wrote: I've heard this said before and I don't understand it completely...If the owner of the property amends their EULA for their purposes, that doesn't void their rights does it? If they subsequently terminate the the action that amended the EULA, they still retain rights do they not?

I just don't see how they violated any agreement...the EULA is not an agreement to themselves.

EDIT:

I read up on Oculus Rift .. Luckey had established a pre-existing body of work. It amounted to a product that really needed only aesthetic changes and backing to market...Zenimax's claim was capricious and foolhardy, but it may have been an attempt to do more than just cash in on the Facebook investment... However the decision came about the result was an epic fail.
It may point to greed...or POOR business decision making, but the arguement that Zenimax only brought suit when "Deep Pocket" emerged, is an irony since MOST suits are brought because there is money being lost or money to be gained.

wulfharth wrote: Agreements work in both directions. They can't say, "You can't own mods, so you can't sell them." Then say,"We changed our mind. You can sell them." Then say,"No let's go back to the first standard." After amending it once, they would have had to reissue a new EULA, and everyone would have had to click agree. They threw away their own contract so the doors are now wide open.

Of course it doesn't matter. Donations that go to individuals to compensate them for their time and effort aren't profits. They can try to sue for 0% profit, but that would be silly. Additionally, if I make a model in 3ds max, sculpt it in ZBrush, and composite my textures in Photoshop, they would have to compensate me for all three programs before laying claim to that model. That software is very expensive.

wulfharth wrote: I guess we will find out if they are sue happy or not soon enough. I went live this morning.

<Link removed> Micalov

@wulfharth

Congratulations on your dev job. But really, is it necessary to gloat that you are no longer part of the community? It just seems rather odd to me that you would go through the effort for a community that you claim to be divesting from.

I'm of the opinion that getting a developer job is never a bad move.

It wasn't necessary I was just talking out of hurt. Everybody can be stupid and mean once in a while.

Eventually this fight will die down and we can all be friends again, and go back to talking about skyrim.

Even if I became the president, I'd still make mods. It's my greatest joy. And I'm sure I'd dive into every fight making a fool of myself. That's part of the fun.

[AzureRaptor]

 

Let me ask you both this: If I found a legal way to put a dlc sized mod behind a donate wall and 95% of the money went to mod authors, would you see a problem with that implementation? If so, please explain. Also, the mod will be free to the public when it's done.

 

 

I haven't weighed in much on this whole topic due to the vitriol level, but this ^^ - this kind of project I would happily support. I can't afford much but what I could give I'd do so happily.

 

On a somewhat orthogonal sidenote, another solution I'd really like to see, and has been mentioned in a couple of different ways, is the idea of _Valve and Bethesda_ compensating modders. I doubt seriously either of their bottom lines are hurting, and above and beyond that it'd be, IMHO, a stellar _investment_ on their parts. I'm not sure what the mechanism should be for choosing given mods, or determining compensation, should be, but neither do I believe those are remotely insurmountable obstacles. If nothing else some sort of submission and voting (with sensible oversight, of course) could be set up to choose candidates, at least.

 

Even if I became the president, I'd still make mods. It's my greatest joy. And I'm sure I'd dive into every fight making a fool of myself. That's part of the fun.

 

 

Dunno if anyone will get this, but I now have this image of Frank Underwood sitting at the big desk, holding all his calls, making mods... :D

[RichWebster]

Frank Underwood is probably my second favourite anti-hero next to Walter White :D

[SerraShaar]

In response to post #25172884. #25175539 is also a reply to the same post.

hafizlordfeast wrote: You know what I think is funny, after all the f******s that Bethesda have done, ONLY when Bethesda remove the paid modding that they've decided to make a clear statement why making paid mods is a good idea with a very specific detail. But it's like making a good excuse after your wife or husband finds out you're cheating and confront you about it. They've probably should do this sooner instead of telling the percentage of money the modders received and comparing to Bethesda and Valve, which doesn't seem fair for companies that want to 'help' the modders. Making the community angry in the process, while also being angry about other thing too.

Another thing, heard that Bethesda and Valve makes dealing with excellent modders to implement the paid mods on Steam like Isoku, SkyUI Team, Chesko, and others (Probably? I don't know). So if Bethesda know enough about the potential modders that mod-users like, of course they've decided that these are the guys that will profit most for Bethesda and Gaben. BUT, if they've known enough about these guys, that means Bethesda already explore the heart of modding communities to know what is really going on in Skyrim modding process.

What I'm getting is this, these are the modders that probably know the problems of Skyrim modding. Some of the problems are conflicting mods and broken mods that can break Skyrim, and yeah, Bethesda probably suppose to know this as well, (they've already stated themselves that every mod implemented or remove must make a new game every time) if they even bother to contact them privately about this. What? They think the modding community are just casuals that only want to buy certain mods and get on with it? Even mod users with low end PC want to reach the 255 mod limits or beyond if they could, and the problem with buying mods for a game like Skyrim are indeed the conflict and broken state. Skyrim will be considered broken with mods, and fixing mods are the only solution instead of Bethesda's patches, but my God, imagine if fixing mods decided that they want to charge money as well. (You think they don't deserve this? They are the one who fix the broken game instead of Bethesda, but who is fine enough to pay something that Bethesda should've done themselves?)

Skyrim is a volatile game that got hurt more as the mods being implemented and removed, making paid mods are rather silly for a game on this kind of state, and Bethesda want to make sure the mods need to be paid? With the risk of broken the game itself? I don't know if people actually generous enough like they stated they are, in which I doubt it, that they will pay the mods no matter what, to help the modders. So you don't really care about the risk of incompability and broken state of Skyrim? But I guess you're that kind, like you state that you are?

Hey, good mods are good mods, but only if we actually use it, no preview or all that. After you are satisfied with the mods, are the time when you feel it's worth the money. So donate it as much as they've deserve it, but too bad some people isn't keen on donating but like to pay the mods for some reason. You don't know deserving mods after you try it, so why would I want to pay for some that could've been terrible. I'm pretty baffled on the people that think paid mods are a good idea for a game like Skyrim after all that, and the problem is you haven't feel the longer effect of this business plan, so you wouldn't even know the problems it could create. To bad Bethesda already pull it off before it learns to fly, huh? Mods aren't early access which is a game of its own, not something that is implemented that could risk the state of the base game. Why would I want to pay something that could risk Skyrim?

It's like Bethesda already know the community, but decided to make one fell swoop of sudden strike to free modding community. Yo, look at that, Wet and Cold is free on the Nexus but turns out the new version will be considered premium exclusively for the Steam Workshop, and you have to pay for it. Heard that Steam is incompatible with mod managers. If that is true, then there's add another problem. Wouldn't it be great if we could have all the mods compatible with each other even if we paid for, but it's not that simple isn't it?

Yes, I do agree that modders deserve to be paid for their work. Hell, all of the modders other than Skyrim modders need to be rewarded for their work, but only good modders, not terrible modders and scamming modders, of course. People doesn't seem to keen on the ideas on donating, but like to pay the mods that the modders only got thirty percent, guess they want to pay Bethesda and Valve as well, I suppose. The people who want free mods will either screw paid mods or pirated the paid mods. So where's the money on that? It was free for a long time and all of a sudden you have to pay for it like a DLC, usually conflicting or broken DLC. Can't expect people to be empathic enough to help modders paid for their hard work, in which they only get half of money anyway. There are too many reasons why Bethesda remove paid mods so early, usually on the reasons that are not good for their own circumstances.

IF Bethesda want to help the community, I already state this and I will state it again, Bethesda should be the one to pay the modders, not the customers who already purchase their product. If Bohemia Interactive able to give ten thousands prize money to modders, why can't Bethesda? Despite Bohemia Interactive getting criticized for producing expensive DLC, they're the only one who awarded the modders, even if Bohemia isn't actually richest AAA publisher. If Bethesda want to help them more, how about hiring them? If modders ain't capable enough to move to Maryland, then let them work remotely.

It's like Bethesda wanted to screw the modding community, and make sure that everyone start to go their own way and oppose each other. Trying to become a game company that is hated by its own fans. While also, to create a more hostile relation between modders and mod users. It's like every game company want to reach the top as the evil company in the world. What's going on here?

retnav98 wrote: ...I was thinking the same thing re. what they were REALLY trying to do.

Total Biscuit's interview can be summed up with I question....

How could they Be so WRONG about their own Market?...

The idea that they were trying to create turmoil explains it far better than the idea that they were making stupid decisions. Now I know people HAVE and will again say, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." ...pay attention to the adverb "ADEQUATELY"

In order to apply Hanlon's Razor to Valve's benefit one has to believe that their business decision was Malicious instead of simply Business. In addition, you have to believe that Valve is managed by Ignorant people... So let's stipulate that Valve is NEITHER malicious NOR ignorant...

Using Occam's Razor...the simpler explanation prevails. Even if the program had been allowed to continue, there would still be animosity within the community .

I agree with this . When I heard about this whole thing the 1st thing that came to mind was 'What? They get a cut from the modder work? but...the mods are what keep a game vibrant and feel new (thats without mentioning the many MANY mods that fix bugs and errors that are way better then any patch) ...

So yeah , I think if anyone should be paying someone its Betheseda . For a Thank you for keeping our Games alive just out of love for our work . Thank you for Supporting us by making stuff we didn't have time to make , for Fix we didn't have time to make..etc .

And I honestly personally think it is a bad idea . (not the modder shouldn't be rewarded for their hard work) , but to change a fan of a mod to a customers .

A fan will be kind and tolerant and patient if anything doesn't work with a Mod . A paying customer often will feel cose he is paying , he is entitled to be served first and there is no 'wait till I get around it busy with real life' ..

I think it be a great Loss . If the fan become a customer and I wouldn't wish the headech on anyone .

That said , they should (Valve and who else is involved) find way to I don't know...advertise modders hard work somehow .

[RGMage2]

Everyone keeps harping on about quality and on-going support, but I think it really depends on the price being asked. If a modder asked an excessive price then yes, the buyer has a right to expect more. But if the price were $1, which IMO is the right price for a mod, then I don't think it would be reasonable for anyone to expect highest quality and on-going support.

 

In real life anything you would pay $1 for would be considered a throwaway disposable low risk purchase. Why should mods be any different? If I buy something for $1 and it turns out to not be what I wanted, or it breaks, I'm not going to take it back for a refund, more likely I just throw it away.

 

For paid modding to work, one of the things that will have to change is the way people think about mods.