Left-Wing, Right-wing, or Central?

[dpgillam]

Yes, I was speaking of Marxist "classical Socialism" which is, well, actually...Socialism. What you erroneously call "modern socialism" is actually "Fascism". For some reason the Left Wing continually misunderstands the two, and advocated both. As I said before, I blame it on the education system.

 

I must have been a bit too fancy in my phrases if you think "freedom to FAIL" is somehow meant to be a good thing. I shall endeavor to be less poetic in my future postings.

 

A simplified rephrasing, from your own Winston Churchill

“The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings.

The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.”

 

Its not that only one will reduce you to a drone, but that both lead to the greatest majority being left in misery: in other words, most everybody ends up f&%ked with either system. But one system at least allows you a very slim chance to be the pitcher instead of the catcher.

 

As for the moronically insulting idea that equality is a Left wing concept, and that only lefties want or support it, is not only bat-s#*! insane, its also wrong. The chief problem, of course, is in how you define the term, though.

 

To put this at its simplest terms:

A Right Winger will look for equality at the beginning.

Two children are born in the same hospital, they go to the same schools. They had an equal start. That one chose to apply himself, get all top marks, and graduate top of class while the other chose to drop out and become a criminal is personal choice. To the Right-ist, this is "equal"; both have a chance and you either use it or you squander it.

 

The Leftist feels that the end result is what should be equal; granted, this runs fully contrary to all of history and human nature. Taken to its actual logical application, the student that studies his ass off should only be given the same grade as the slacker. The worker who does the bare minimum should be rewarded equally to the one that excels to his best. To the Leftist, this is "equal".

[Daedthr]

If it sounded as though I was implying equality to be exclusive left, then I apologise for it is obviously not so. I also agree with what you say about right-wing and left-wing attempting equality at different stages. I was merely pointing out that the whole basis for the extreme left wing is total equality, which is not the same in the right-wing. The right-wing may promote the giving of equal opportunities, but this is not the same as the true equality left-wing attempts because of course there are going to be some that are naturally able to make more use of their opportunities than others, e.g. the more academically intelligent. The right-wing cannot claim true equality when somebody who is more academically brilliant then somebody else may receive a better life, even if they had equal starting opportunities. The left-wing ensures absolute equality because as you say, it ensures end-term equality. The right-wing makes Freedom paramount to absolute equality because while it aims to provide equal opportunities, it gives people the freedom use these opportunities as they will and rewards accordingly, rather than rewarding all uses of opportunity equally. Thus it is perfectly reasonable to ascertain that the central foundation of the extreme left wing is paramount equality and the foundation of the extreme right-wing is paramount freedom. Neither are exclusive concepts, but I don't recall ever saying they were.

 

Also, whilst both systems might leave you equally miserable, an argument can be made for the 'catchers' of right-wing society being more miserable than people of a left-wing society, because these 'catchers' will also be aware that there are people in their society who are far better off than them, thus amplifying their misery.

 

Modern socialism is the idea that society should be organised communally, it is nothing to do with Fascism, which simply describes a governmental and social system based on nationalism and strict compliance with rules at the cost of freedom. I don't know why you equate communal organisation to Fascism or where you got this from, if you look at the modern definitions of these things you'll find that these are exactly what they are, also classical socialism is no more socialism than 'modern' socialism is, definitions change.

 

I don't remember saying 'Freedom to fail is good thing' but I do remember my expression of appreciation towards the fact that you had demonstrated that both the right-wing like the left-wing would leave the majority in misery, as you have just repeated now. You seem to have misunderstood me, I appreciated the rhetoric of your statements, not the sentiments.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Daedthr

[dpgillam]

Then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

 

Writing discussions over politics is always such a pain because of the communication errors inherent in the medium; well, that and Poe's Law :laugh:

[Daedthr]

Then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

 

Writing discussions over politics is always such a pain because of the communication errors inherent in the medium; well, that and Poe's Law :laugh:

 

Ah and so do I, as you say politics is such a broad, varied and complicated subject that trying to express it in literary argument won't ever do it justice. We need a book, a library, or a hall of debate. :)

[HeyYou]

Or, a flamethrower, an atom bomb, and a broom and dustpan to clean up the mess afterwards.... then there would be any politics. :D

[Daedthr]

Haha very true, maybe we should do a Guy Fawkes. :D

[Beriallord]

 

As far as British politics goes, I like the UKIP. I would vote for them if I lived there. I got no use for Tories or Labor to be honest.

 

UKIP are a very odd party really. Before Farage, they were frankly racist, and even now I'm not entirely comfortable with some of their principles, but then part of it will be to do with the fact that both Labour and the Conservatives have become so centralised since Blair that any real sense of Left or Right wing in a party seems overzealous.

 

Personally though, I'm not a big fan of UKIP, it's a party with a greater share of nutters ("Gays cause floods!" type nutters) in than either the Conservatives or Labour, and that says something to me about what sort of things the principles behind their policies are. They're no longer racist by any means (they used to be compared to BNP), but they still have an overbearing focus on immigration and frankly their "British jobs for British people" doesn't attract me in the slightest, considering Britains wealth has historically been based on the exploitation of foreign colonies and slave labour.

 

I've also been present at a debate/discussion with a UKIP council member, and he was disgustingly prejudiced.

 

They want to do things like cut foreign aid to the poorest countries in the world, which as Nick Clegg said, wouldn't help anyone.

 

All in all I think they have a long way to go before they get anywhere near the stage of either the Conservatives of Labour, not that I think they ever will. Currently they're a one-man party under Farage, and there's still a lot of public disapproval of them because of their history and their leanings against immigration.

 

I'm not opposed to either of those positions I underlined.

 

As far as the comment about Britain's wealth is concerned, its not fair to hold people today responsible for what happened over 100 years ago. And that's a really poor excuse to justify immigration policies like they're some sort of reparations for things done in the past. Immigration should be about "do you possess a skill that we need?". Opening the flood gates from the 3rd world is a nation destroying policy. The fallacy is the belief that most of them will adapt to British ways over time. So what's the plan if they refuse to adapt?

 

Also, holding the entire party accountable for the positions of a few nutters isn't exactly fair. Every side has them.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Beriallord

[HeyYou]

We have found that no, they do NOT 'adapt' to their host countries ways. You end up with a micro-community within the community, where the rules can be dramatically different....... And then they want to expand their ruleset outside their own little closed community, so everything is 'fair'..... and their children aren't subject to 'decadent western mores'..... and other such shlock. As their population expands, their influence does indeed spread.... and you end up with government officials taking notice, and catering to them, so in fact, their culture takes over the once-dominant culture of the area.

 

I think immigration is WAY to permissive at this point...... and the powers-that-be only want to make it MORE so......

[MotoSxorpio]

Is there a Non-calvinist/capitalist party?

 

In the US, roads are falling apart. Why? cuz that gets car part manufacturers more money.

 

In the US, farmers are paid NOT TO GROW CROPS...why? So we can import from another country.

 

Gimme the party that actually solves issues, rather than compound old issues.

 

Nothing will change until the concept of "He who dies with the most s#*! wins" gets a make-over.

[HeyYou]

We would rather give away money that we borrow from other folks, to countries that hate us, and will never in a billion years pay us back, than take care of business right here at home.

 

It seems that infrastructure in Iraq, and Afghanistan, takes priority over our own...... but then, in those countries, we build it, and someone else comes along and blows it up, or strips it for scrap, or something equally as stupid. Seldom is whatever we built put to the use it was intended...... It's just a nice scheme for some no-bid contractors to make billions.

 

Not to mention giving money to countries that DON'T NEED IT, so they can buy weapons from us with it..... I am sure the defense industry just loves that.......

 

And lets not forget tax breaks for 'creating jobs in developing nations'........ I.E. MOVING jobs to developing nations......

 

The level of stupidity demonstrated by the US government is beyond appalling..... Sometimes, I think they have a contest to see who can come up with an even worse way to waste taxpayer money....... Seems that is what they are best at.

 

Don't expect any of that to change either.