Are people optimistic about the West/US/Europe?

[marharth]

The thing is though china gets richer off giving us loans, we don't need loans if we have a good economy...

 

 

ROFTL..have you ever sat through an economics course? I'll give you an example: in the Peloponnesean War between Sparta and Athens the Athenians through the use of a type of civic bond were able to contain the superior land armies of Sparta by means of hiring help, Sparta which had no deficit spending or even coinage that was valued at any level of exchange was forced to go cap in hand to the Persian Empire for monetary support, an act they found odious in the extreme. The lesson is: deficit spending has been with governments almost as long as there have been governments in existence. Loans or bonds are how governments pay for improvements to infrastructure, wars and social programs. FYI ....the last debt free administration was that of Andrew Jackson, which was only achieved through massive sales of land deeds in the central Mississippi area, his repeal of the Bank of the United States was immediately reversed in the subsequent administration.

What are you talking about?

[Aurielius]

"What are you talking about?'

 

@Marharth

Though I thought it was self evident. I will walk you through the process. You post a peerlessly economically naive statement ie: "The thing is though china gets richer off giving us loans, we don't need loans if we have a good economy..." to which I quote and then proceed to refute with an example, of which I was sure was clear enough even for you, to help I then correlate the concept with an example from American history in case classical history was not on your curriculum wherever you matriculated from.

In most circles this is called a debate, point / counterpoint.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Aurielius

[Sinophile]

.the last debt free administration was that of Andrew Jackson, which was only achieved through massive sales of land deeds in the central Mississippi area, his repeal of the Bank of the United States was immediately reversed in the subsequent administration.

I thought that there was a budget surplus during the Clinton years, although when I tried to google a reference, It appears not.

 

 

The thing is though china gets richer off giving us loans, we don't need loans if we have a good economy...

Let's say that you get a new job and get a mortage in order to buy a house. Even though you have a job, most people aren't willing to save up years in order to afford to purchase a home outright, thus most homeowners get a mortage. Let's say that you lose your job, and are unable to pay off your mortage. The mortage company would have to pay expensive forceclosure fees, and most likely sell your home at a steep loss.

Also keep in mind , that in addition to being America's loanshark, China has also been a large supplier of manufactured goods. Since the U.S. demand for manufactured goods has sharply decreased since the housing crash, that has also negatively affected China.

[marharth]

I think everyone misunderstood what I said...

[Aurielius]

I think everyone misunderstood what I said...

No, I do not think so , most of us are quite fluent in the English language. You write, we read.....engaging brain before typing, that seems to be the glitch here.

[Harbringe]

Hold up guys China's growth rate has been in the 9 - 10% range since the start of the recession ,they have a pay as you go policy (so does Russia) ,so they unlike the US do not borrow to finance themselves.They also own their own Central Bank ,as in not privately owned .So they do not get charged for the printing of their own money ,unlike the US and in fact most Western countries.As for trade the US is not their biggest trading partner ,that would be the EU ,also in the last year they and Russia have announced all trade between them will be conducted in Rubles and Yuan's ,and have dumped all US dollars that was used specifically for that purpose.95 billion in sweetheart direct trade deals have been signed with various countries in the past year ,something they have been doing for the past decade ,why because direct trade sidesteps the need for US dollars.They and Russia have announced they will be setting up their own oil bourses (Russian Oil Bourse , Shanghai Oil Bourse) again sidesteps the need for US dollars .Since their entry into the world trade system domestic consumption of what constitutes foreign trade grew by an average of 1% per year in the first decade , by an average of 2% per year in the next decade .Currently 68% of what they manufacture goes to export ,21% to the EU ,18% to the US and the rest goes to the rest of the world.Well if domestic consumption grew by another 2% per year for the next decade ,they could eliminate a trading partner and not miss a step ,maybe someone who keeps borrowing money from them ,which happens to be your biggest export to them, debt money.The only people who don't seem to aware of which way the wind is blowing is you Americans.Even my country of Canada is making changes ,we just finished dumping 20% of our US dollars for Euro's ,that's on top of a previous dumping of 10% 2 years ago.Think about it We (Canada) have taken to dumping US dollars ,our biggest trading partner .Wake up and smell the coffee.

[WizardOfAtlantis]

Nobody should be optimistic about the West, or the entire world and the survival of the human society itself, unless we get rid of outdated models of world-management (pure capitalism) which destroy and purposefully mismanage our limited resources, create inequality among us, and bring us ever more quickly to an ecological holocaust, something which the experts say will be in most of our lifetimes.

 

Since we live on Earth, and have it as our centre, until we adopt a resource-based economy and put money and bankers and corporations in their place, we're Doomed, possibly to extinction. If you don't think that's at the very least a Huge possibility, you're naive. I'm not even talking about global warming. I'm talking about poisoning the planet, the destruction of fertile growing land around the world, and the increasing necessity of a limited resource around which our whole world economy is based.

 

Example, of which you are probably not familiar. Here in Italy, the mafia (in some cases even the gov, f I remember correctly about this ship filled with toxic waste the military sank off the coast...) have been dumping toxic waste, heavy metals, etc, into the countryside around the region of Naples for the past decades. Not only burying it but literally just trucking it in and dumping it uncovered.

 

Now, entire areas of the countryside are POISONED. People are dying with record levels of cancer and tumors, many many times higher than anything normal. (And it's all being hushed up of course). This kind of poisoning is being found ALL OVER ITALY. In the water, in the soil, in the air because either the mafia puts it there or the corrupt politicians (I think there are 600 parlamentary members, of which the last figure I heard were 70 under investigation for illegal activities...but in true italian style, still on the job) make it so that it isn't illegal to do illegal things. I"m not kidding or exaggerating in the least.

 

So...we can't go on like this. Not for very long at all, or there will be extinctions, at the very least of what we call our modern society. It's not doom-saying, it's not pessimism, it's not anything like that, what I'm saying, and it strikes me to the bone that people don't wake up and force change on the system. The system won't change on its own. Those That Be want to continue to be...even if they are the true monsters of the world.

 

And please don't think I'm, as South Park would say, a "hippy liberal douchebag", hahaha http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/laugh.gif (no offense intended to the hippies or the liberals of course! I like all good happy types) I happen to teach modern and historical military martial and survivalist martial arts, and self-defence is what it's all about. We have to defend ourselves or, just like against an attacker on the street, we very well might get killed.

Edited January 28, 2011 by WizardOfAtlantis

[ginnyfizz]

Some most interesting points there, WizardOfAtlantis. Whereas I would not be on board with your rejection of capitalism, nonetheless I take a look at what has happened in just the British banking world, as a microcosm of the Western world, and I don't trust the bankers. These are the guys whose grandstanding and dabbling in the US sub-prime lending market left them in a position where they had to be bailed out by the taxpayer, and they have the gall to say to us that "If you don't allow us to pay our staff who got us and you into this mess whopping big bonuses, they will all go elsewhere." I would be tempted to say, if I were the Government "Bye then, don't let the door hit you on the way out". However, I do believe that we need to offer incentives to our entrepreneurs who are creating jobs, let us not forget that, and making not only themselves wealthy but all of us better off.

 

But what really had me nodding in agreement was the need to take note of the ecological implications of what we do, how we live. One of the reasons that the mention of global warming gets me annoyed is that focusing on it blinds people to such major issues as you describe, such as poisoning of the land and of water courses. I would also add that the so-called "green" solution can be just as destructive, in fact more so sometimes, than the problem that it was meant to solve. What we need to get away from is the knee jerk response to events, hysteria in the media and so forth.

[Balagor]

Nobody should be optimistic about the West, or the entire world and the survival of the human society itself, unless we get rid of outdated models of world-management (pure capitalism) which destroy and purposefully mismanage our limited resources, create inequality among us, and bring us ever more quickly to an ecological holocaust, something which the experts say will be in most of our lifetimes.

 

Since we live on Earth, and have it as our centre, until we adopt a resource-based economy and put money and bankers and corporations in their place, we're Doomed, possibly to extinction. If you don't think that's at the very least a Huge possibility, you're naive. I'm not even talking about global warming. I'm talking about poisoning the planet, the destruction of fertile growing land around the world, and the increasing necessity of a limited resource around which our whole world economy is based.

 

Example, of which you are probably not familiar. Here in Italy, the mafia (in some cases even the gov, f I remember correctly about this ship filled with toxic waste the military sank off the coast...) have been dumping toxic waste, heavy metals, etc, into the countryside around the region of Naples for the past decades. Not only burying it but literally just trucking it in and dumping it uncovered.

 

Now, entire areas of the countryside are POISONED. People are dying with record levels of cancer and tumors, many many times higher than anything normal. (And it's all being hushed up of course). This kind of poisoning is being found ALL OVER ITALY. In the water, in the soil, in the air because either the mafia puts it there or the corrupt politicians (I think there are 600 parlamentary members, of which the last figure I heard were 70 under investigation for illegal activities...but in true italian style, still on the job) make it so that it isn't illegal to do illegal things. I"m not kidding or exaggerating in the least.

 

So...we can't go on like this. Not for very long at all, or there will be extinctions, at the very least of what we call our modern society. It's not doom-saying, it's not pessimism, it's not anything like that, what I'm saying, and it strikes me to the bone that people don't wake up and force change on the system. The system won't change on its own. Those That Be want to continue to be...even if they are the true monsters of the world.

 

And please don't think I'm, as South Park would say, a "hippy liberal douchebag", hahaha http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/laugh.gif (no offense intended to the hippies or the liberals of course! I like all good happy types) I happen to teach modern and historical military martial and survivalist martial arts, and self-defence is what it's all about. We have to defend ourselves or, just like against an attacker on the street, we very well might get killed.

 

I agree 110 % with every single word you say. Kudos. :thumbsup:

My only hope is that it is not too late to take responsability and do something ;)

[grannywils]

Nobody should be optimistic about the West, or the entire world and the survival of the human society itself, unless we get rid of outdated models of world-management (pure capitalism) which destroy and purposefully mismanage our limited resources, create inequality among us, and bring us ever more quickly to an ecological holocaust, something which the experts say will be in most of our lifetimes.

 

Since we live on Earth, and have it as our centre, until we adopt a resource-based economy and put money and bankers and corporations in their place, we're Doomed, possibly to extinction. If you don't think that's at the very least a Huge possibility, you're naive. I'm not even talking about global warming. I'm talking about poisoning the planet, the destruction of fertile growing land around the world, and the increasing necessity of a limited resource around which our whole world economy is based.

 

Example, of which you are probably not familiar. Here in Italy, the mafia (in some cases even the gov, f I remember correctly about this ship filled with toxic waste the military sank off the coast...) have been dumping toxic waste, heavy metals, etc, into the countryside around the region of Naples for the past decades. Not only burying it but literally just trucking it in and dumping it uncovered.

 

Now, entire areas of the countryside are POISONED. People are dying with record levels of cancer and tumors, many many times higher than anything normal. (And it's all being hushed up of course). This kind of poisoning is being found ALL OVER ITALY. In the water, in the soil, in the air because either the mafia puts it there or the corrupt politicians (I think there are 600 parlamentary members, of which the last figure I heard were 70 under investigation for illegal activities...but in true italian style, still on the job) make it so that it isn't illegal to do illegal things. I"m not kidding or exaggerating in the least.

 

So...we can't go on like this. Not for very long at all, or there will be extinctions, at the very least of what we call our modern society. It's not doom-saying, it's not pessimism, it's not anything like that, what I'm saying, and it strikes me to the bone that people don't wake up and force change on the system. The system won't change on its own. Those That Be want to continue to be...even if they are the true monsters of the world.

 

And please don't think I'm, as South Park would say, a "hippy liberal douchebag", hahaha http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/laugh.gif (no offense intended to the hippies or the liberals of course! I like all good happy types) I happen to teach modern and historical military martial and survivalist martial arts, and self-defence is what it's all about. We have to defend ourselves or, just like against an attacker on the street, we very well might get killed.

 

Just wanted to say that I applaud this post. Wonderful points made here. Thank you.