Who are the real terrorists?

[marharth]

I would like to make a topic about our modern day enemy, terrorists. We chase after them no matter what, we take away personal freedom and rights to "protect" against them.

 

I am going to try to make this short, hopefully the discussion can expand on itself.

 

Let me start with saying the reasons we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

The reasons we invaded Afghanistan might be justified by some, I never liked the war but ill keep going.

1. The Taliban WAS helping Al Queda.

 

That's all I can think of for that... Now does this mean we should go attack them just because we got bombed? The point of terrorism is to spread fear through violence. The people who bombed us are WINNING by being in a war with us. We did what they wanted us to do, be afraid and attack back. To be afraid and take away freedom and rights...

 

Now why did we invade Iraq? This is a much more serious issue...

1. Bush claimed they were making weapons of mass destruction, or already had them. It was proven they were not even CONSIDERING making them.

 

2. Bush claimed Saddam Hussein was working with Al Queda, which is 100 percent false.

 

3. To "free" the people from the rule of Saddam Hussein. This IS a valid reason, but its not a imperfect nations job to free other countries. If the USA was close to perfect I would fully support the act of nation building and non violent take overs.

 

4. To gather intelligence on terrorist groups. This is also a false reason, since there were no major terrorists groups in Iraq strongly associated with Al Qeuda.

 

The real answer to both of the above things is the following...

1. Help military contractors get richer.

2. Make money off foreign oil.

3. Help Israel wipe out Iraq for not wanting to work with them.

 

 

Guess this isn't going to be so short then... Now onto the topics title.

 

We invaded the countries in attempt to wipe out terrorism, what have we really done? The people of Afghanistan DO NOT want our help anymore. They are happy as they are now, and they are siding with the Taliban to get us out!

 

Think about that for a second, innocent people are siding with the Taliban, simply to get us out of their country. Yet we still insist we are helping them?

 

 

We kill innocent people everyday because of the war, and people still support the wars?

 

That being said, I am calling every single person who supports the war right now a terrorist. Just because your on the side of the "good guys" doesn't mean you really are a good guy. I am not saying the other terrorist groups are not bad, but the USA is the biggest terrorist group in the world now.

 

 

Discuss?

 

 

News: wasn't only the U.S. who entered Afghanistan, check it up!

If this is a U.S. only topic and not a 'Western' topic please state it to be so, 'cos us poor blighters who are not fortuntate to be born American and do all that patriotic flag waving saluting on going to school everyday might get uppity ideas and think that it is an open subject.:biggrin:

The first post talked about the USA, and US presidents. I don't know why it would seem like it was a topic focused towards the US...

 

I am not a blind patriot or a stereotypical "USA IS NUMBER ONE" American. I just made the topic trying to focus on the US.

 

Next time ill make that more clear, sorry if anyone misunderstood it.

you

Excuse me for being obtuse but there is such a thing as a stereotypical "USA is not number one", forgive me for assuming from your many posts that you are such a being.

 

P.S. Aurelius, two of my favourite anthems are the U.S. and French. Let's remember after all that the events of those times were carried on by peoples of those times and it is up to us wherever we are to strive to equal them if possible!:thumbsup:

Maybe because the USA isn't the best country on the earth?

 

I am not Anti American of course, but the USA certainly is not the best country in the world.

[HappyHerring]

Which is the best country in the world and what is the immigration policy, I'm hoping it is somewhere in polynesia!:thumbsup:

[evilneko]

You're including war-time actions into this.

 

Congress declared war? When?

 

I've got nothing to hide.

 

Good for you. I for one am sick of the "if you've got nothing to hide..." apologetics. It really is sickening. If our founding fathers had held such an attitude we'd still be singing "God Save the Queen."

[Aurielius]

 

Good for you. I for one am sick of the "if you've got nothing to hide..." apologetics. It really is sickening. If our founding fathers had held such an attitude we'd still be singing "God Save the Queen."

You do know that in a way we do....

 

"It is also the melody to the United States patriotic hymn "America" (also known by its first line, "My Country, 'Tis of Thee"), the lyrics of which were written by Samuel Francis Smith in 1831. The song, a de facto national anthem before the adoption of "The Star-Spangled Banner" in the 1930s, is quite popular among Americans, most of whom associate the tune with the American hymn rather than the British anthem."

[TotalRookie]

Let me point out that anyone who disagrees with the U.S. government and takes any manner of action to oppose the establishment, could be labeled as a terrorist. The men pulling the strings of our government are the terrorists, not the people who are brainwashed into supporting such wars. The current government IS a form of legalized terrorism, and the military is their tool, along with all of the main stream news zombies. Don't get me wrong I support the men in uniform, but not the motivations of the rich that cause them to be there.

[ginnyfizz]

 

Good for you. I for one am sick of the "if you've got nothing to hide..." apologetics. It really is sickening. If our founding fathers had held such an attitude we'd still be singing "God Save the Queen."

You do know that in a way we do....

 

"It is also the melody to the United States patriotic hymn "America" (also known by its first line, "My Country, 'Tis of Thee"), the lyrics of which were written by Samuel Francis Smith in 1831. The song, a de facto national anthem before the adoption of "The Star-Spangled Banner" in the 1930s, is quite popular among Americans, most of whom associate the tune with the American hymn rather than the British anthem."

 

 

LOL, at His Holi....I mean President Obama's inauguration when a lady sang that hymn I yelped "What the...they're playing our tune!" There are far worse tunes that you could potentially have been singing, evilneko, or should I say words. The Marsellaise is a rattling good tune but as a fluent French speaker with a French grandmere, I can confirm that the words are very bloodthirsty. And as a singer myself, I have rarely found a tune harder to fit with the words than is The Star Spangled Banner. But I digress (purely in the hope of injecting a little humour).

 

Evilneko, I totally agree, I too am sick of the "if you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing to fear" apologetics. Love my country as I do, and admire and respect the USA as I also do, I know of cases both famous and not so famous, in either country, where the innocent or merely unlucky have been hung out to dry, due to political considerations or potential corruption. Likewise my relatives in the Soviet bloc as it then was fell victim to that misapprehension of nothing to hide...nothing to fear.

 

HOWEVER, that being the case, I also take the point made by happy pig. Where there is genuine suspicion that someone is a terrorist, based on strong evidence, where they have been found with these videos and observed ranting at seditious rallies, then nick the miserable so and so.

 

Marharth, why you seem so determined to equate governments with these terrorists I do not know. I speak not of the jihadist organizations whose stated aim is to overthrow the kuffar and to destroy the way of life that your Founding Fathers (and mine) fought for.

[SpellAndShield]

A terrorist is something that is defined by the state, most often applied as a term to those who oppose the so called interests of the said state; in this light the CIA is without question a terrorist organisation for, e.g. its many crimes in Latin America. Now I know it has been argued here by one person that governments act based upon 'political necessity' (a nebulous term at best) but to claim that morality does not apply is logically inconsistent. Either murder is wrong, or it is not. When a state commits murder or engages in terrorism that leads to murder, that is still murder, any way you wish to paint it. Now, what I am getting at is simple: who the terrorists are is a question of being in the eye of the beholder. So, when our government helped to assassinate Central and South American priests who were leaders of the Liberation Theology movement, I am quite sure the USA was/is regarded as a terrorist.

 

On a side note, you can see what these people in the Middle East want, (Libya, Bahrain, etc.), at least the vast majority of them, freedom and democracy with a small 'd', so much for the absurd claims that most Arabs wish to errect an Islamic Caliphate spanning the globe.

[SpellAndShield]

 

Good for you. I for one am sick of the "if you've got nothing to hide..." apologetics. It really is sickening. If our founding fathers had held such an attitude we'd still be singing "God Save the Queen."

You do know that in a way we do....

 

"It is also the melody to the United States patriotic hymn "America" (also known by its first line, "My Country, 'Tis of Thee"), the lyrics of which were written by Samuel Francis Smith in 1831. The song, a de facto national anthem before the adoption of "The Star-Spangled Banner" in the 1930s, is quite popular among Americans, most of whom associate the tune with the American hymn rather than the British anthem."

 

 

LOL, at His Holi....I mean President Obama's inauguration when a lady sang that hymn I yelped "What the...they're playing our tune!" There are far worse tunes that you could potentially have been singing, evilneko, or should I say words. The Marsellaise is a rattling good tune but as a fluent French speaker with a French grandmere, I can confirm that the words are very bloodthirsty. And as a singer myself, I have rarely found a tune harder to fit with the words than is The Star Spangled Banner. But I digress (purely in the hope of injecting a little humour).

 

Evilneko, I totally agree, I too am sick of the "if you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing to fear" apologetics. Love my country as I do, and admire and respect the USA as I also do, I know of cases both famous and not so famous, in either country, where the innocent or merely unlucky have been hung out to dry, due to political considerations or potential corruption. Likewise my relatives in the Soviet bloc as it then was fell victim to that misapprehension of nothing to hide...nothing to fear.

 

HOWEVER, that being the case, I also take the point made by happy pig. Where there is genuine suspicion that someone is a terrorist, based on strong evidence, where they have been found with these videos and observed ranting at seditious rallies, then nick the miserable so and so.

 

Marharth, why you seem so determined to equate governments with these terrorists I do not know. I speak not of the jihadist organizations whose stated aim is to overthrow the kuffar and to destroy the way of life that your Founding Fathers (and mine) fought for.

 

Yes, this is exactly what the people in Libya and Bahrain are clamouring for and dying for....once they overthrow their governements, the Caliphate will begin anew!

[marharth]

 

Good for you. I for one am sick of the "if you've got nothing to hide..." apologetics. It really is sickening. If our founding fathers had held such an attitude we'd still be singing "God Save the Queen."

You do know that in a way we do....

 

"It is also the melody to the United States patriotic hymn "America" (also known by its first line, "My Country, 'Tis of Thee"), the lyrics of which were written by Samuel Francis Smith in 1831. The song, a de facto national anthem before the adoption of "The Star-Spangled Banner" in the 1930s, is quite popular among Americans, most of whom associate the tune with the American hymn rather than the British anthem."

 

 

LOL, at His Holi....I mean President Obama's inauguration when a lady sang that hymn I yelped "What the...they're playing our tune!" There are far worse tunes that you could potentially have been singing, evilneko, or should I say words. The Marsellaise is a rattling good tune but as a fluent French speaker with a French grandmere, I can confirm that the words are very bloodthirsty. And as a singer myself, I have rarely found a tune harder to fit with the words than is The Star Spangled Banner. But I digress (purely in the hope of injecting a little humour).

 

Evilneko, I totally agree, I too am sick of the "if you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing to fear" apologetics. Love my country as I do, and admire and respect the USA as I also do, I know of cases both famous and not so famous, in either country, where the innocent or merely unlucky have been hung out to dry, due to political considerations or potential corruption. Likewise my relatives in the Soviet bloc as it then was fell victim to that misapprehension of nothing to hide...nothing to fear.

 

HOWEVER, that being the case, I also take the point made by happy pig. Where there is genuine suspicion that someone is a terrorist, based on strong evidence, where they have been found with these videos and observed ranting at seditious rallies, then nick the miserable so and so.

 

Marharth, why you seem so determined to equate governments with these terrorists I do not know. I speak not of the jihadist organizations whose stated aim is to overthrow the kuffar and to destroy the way of life that your Founding Fathers (and mine) fought for.

If they have evidence that's fine, they still need a fair trial.

 

I do not support the people we are fighting, but I also do not support fighting them.

 

I am saying that we shouldn't go down to their level.

[RZ1029]

You're including war-time actions into this.

 

Congress declared war? When?

 

I'm not quite sure how old you are, but I vividly recall the phrase 'war on terror'. The word war implies war. Call me crazy. Korea: We never declared war, we spent a few years over there (exact number I forget), but it wasn't war! Yeah... I don't know about you, but I call it the Korean War, not the Korean Police Action.

 

I've got nothing to hide.

 

Good for you. I for one am sick of the "if you've got nothing to hide..." apologetics. It really is sickening. If our founding fathers had held such an attitude we'd still be singing "God Save the Queen."

 

There are lines to draw, in every fight. My line hasn't been crossed yet, but I assure you, it lies there and will bite someone in the butt if they ever have the misfortune to cross it. It is a line for every person to draw for themselves and decide when to say they've had enough.

 

"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation..." I think most know how this ends.

Edited February 24, 2011 by RZ1029