Can we objectively prove that being gay is wrong (in the same way you can prove rape/pedophilia is wrong)?

[obobski]

Introductory note: I had originally prepared a relatively long (~page) response to the original question, but as I got near the end, I realized it could be significantly simplified. This is what remains;

 

As I read it, literally none of the original post/question is discussing whether or not [username] thinks homosexuality is right or wrong. Instead, I interpret it as a practice in logic - can we use objective evidence/logic to resolve a moral/subjective proposition?

 

Here is the original question, as asked:

"What do you think can we objectively prove that being gay is wrong (in the same way you can prove rape/pedophilia is wrong)?"

 

To which I would respond:

 

No. I do not think we can objectively prove/support/conclude that [something] is right or wrong, regardless of what that thing is. I say this because "right" and "wrong" are moral questions, to which an objective answer cannot be given. We can, however, provide objective evidence to support conclusions and interpretations of [something], for example homosexual behavior between people, but those interpretations and the resulting value-weighted judgments and beliefs that they mediate are inherently subjective (and likely at an individual level). The closest we could come to this would be building consensus - "the majority holds a certain opinion about [something]." While that can be objectively documented (it can be counted and verified, and that count will/should not change depending on who is doing the count), that does not make the majority's opinion itself objective (because they can change their minds).

 

I also think, pragmatically speaking, even if there were some capacity to objectively resolve a moral/subjective proposition (like "is homosexuality right or wrong") you would still have people resisting the outcome for whatever irrational reason(s) - for example there's plenty of research that shows texting while driving to be a very dangerous/unwise/etc thing (e.g. it causes accidents), yet there's still plenty of people who do it. That isn't the result of a logical or objective decision making process on the part of those people - it's an irrational choice made because of some external value-weighted conclusion. So even if we *could* answer a big moral/philosophical question with objective evidence/logic, would it actually matter in the grand scheme of things, when human beings can (and do) act in irrational and illogical ways on a regular basis?

 

Note that I'm not providing any opinion one way or another as to how I personally feel or interpret types human sexual behavior, nor do I have an interest in *that* debate because it IS inherently subjective, and for many people at a deeply personal level.

[JimboUK]

 

The sexual system tells us that a child is neither sexually developed physically nor psychologically for sex. Therefore, a child is not a logical sexual target for an adult. Therefore, we objectively conclude that pedophilia is improper and unacceptable sexual behavior or attraction (even before the behavior).

 

No, it's improper because a child is unable to give informed consent, in the UK penetrative sex with anyone under the age of 13 is considered rape for that very reason. I'm not bothering with the rest it, the opening post shows little understanding of human sexuailty and an almost comical attempt to justify your dislike for one aspect of it.

[openthegate]

"Make childs to save humanity", but we have more than enough. There's nothing wrong with being gay or lesbian, it's just the way a human feels his life.

Tolerating this behavior seems not easy for every part of the world.

Edited August 12, 2015 by openthegate

[Aurielius]

I have a question that has been bugging me since I first read the OP's premise.....The motivation behind the posed question since rape, pedophilia and homosexuality are not inherently linked concepts....at least not all three together. To my mind rape and pedophilia are both non consensual acts, whereas adult same sex relations is merely a private affair of the concerned parties.

[FiftyTifty]

I have a question that has been bugging me since I first read the OP's premise.....The motivation behind the posed question since rape, pedophilia and homosexuality are not inherently linked concepts....at least not all three together. To my mind rape and pedophilia are both non consensual acts, whereas adult same sex relations is merely a private affair of the concerned parties.

 

Just so y'know, Pedophilia != child rape/sexual abuse/whatever. Pedophilia is just the sexual attraction tae kids.

[Deleted1205226User]

 

 

Fact1: The sexual system “indicates” that certain organs are sexual (genital) organs and certain other organs are non-sexual organs.
Fact 2: The sexual system indicates that the normal expected sexual target is an ADULT, HUMAN of the OPPOSITE SEX.
The objective conclusion is that the sexual system indicates that homosexual behavior is not a proper, expected or acceptable sexual behavior for the human sexual system. This same criterion in fact 2 allows us to reject other unacceptable forms or sexual behaviors.

If sex would have only procreation as an aim, we would follow rutting period as most animals do.
we don't. Like our cousins (Bonobo, chimps, etc) we use sex for many reasons: fun, pleasure, obtaining advantages, ease of conflicts, social contacts, bonds reenforcement and sometimes reproduction.

As Obobski said, you cannot use "objectivity", or pseudo Logic to discuss such things or we can easily come to this:

Fact 1: Genital organs are made to excrete, obtain pleasure and reproduce.
Fact 2: The target of sexual system can be: Oneself or one or MORE partners.

The objective conclusion is that marriage and faithfulness are not expected or acceptable behaviour in human sexuality.

Funny isn't?

[Aurielius]

 

I have a question that has been bugging me since I first read the OP's premise.....The motivation behind the posed question since rape, pedophilia and homosexuality are not inherently linked concepts....at least not all three together. To my mind rape and pedophilia are both non consensual acts, whereas adult same sex relations is merely a private affair of the concerned parties.

 

Just so y'know, Pedophilia != child rape/sexual abuse/whatever. Pedophilia is just the sexual attraction tae kids.

 

Webster definition: : Pedophilia- sexual perversion in which children are the preferred sexual object.

 

To my knowledge, it is not something that be be turned off and on at will...it is a predilection .

[FiftyTifty]

Webster definition: : Pedophilia- sexual perversion in which children are the preferred sexual object.

 

 

To my knowledge, it is not something that be be turned off and on at will...it is a predilection .

 

Webster? Eh? By sexual object, it probably means object of desire.

 

Cambridge Dictionary - "someone who is sexually interested in children"

 

Oxford Dictionary - "Person feeling sexual attraction towards children"

 

It's not an act, it's just an attraction. There is no moral crime solely for attraction.

 

Acting upon the attraction of paedophilia, however...

[Aurielius]

 

Webster definition: : Pedophilia- sexual perversion in which children are the preferred sexual object.

 

 

To my knowledge, it is not something that be be turned off and on at will...it is a predilection .

 

Webster? Eh? By sexual object, it probably means object of desire.

 

Cambridge Dictionary - "someone who is sexually interested in children"

 

Oxford Dictionary - "Person feeling sexual attraction towards children"

 

It's not an act, it's just an attraction. There is no moral crime solely for attraction.

 

Acting upon the attraction of paedophilia, however...

 

Sigh..if you want to to argue on the shades of pedophilia.. be my quest...I for one find the subject, relevant individuals etc. distasteful.. so I'm done. Just a parting thought..if you told your neighbors that had young children that you had pedophilic tendencies but were not acting on that compulsion....you think that your relations would remain amicable?

[micalov]

This stupid "debate" is now closed like it should have probably been at the start to be honest.