New Female Body Texture Mod in the Works

[ResidentWeevil2077]

And it's not done. If you would just admit you don't understand what you're doing, I could easily show you how to salvage the textures and make some of the edits I was talking about. But I can't do that if all you do is insist that it's not possible and it's perfect anyway.

 

Of course you should consider this a lesson: always use layers. You can never have too many layers, and they will save you countless hours of frustration when you make mistakes.

On the contrary, I DO actually understand what I'm doing. I just completely forgot what to do first. Mind you, I still don't really know all that much about creating textures, but I at least know just that little bit more than some other texturers who release a shoddy-looking texture, call it "TEH BEST", AND used PS to create it!

 

THOSE are the baffoons you should focus your attention on. Not to sound hateful or anything, but your tips, as much as they've been helpful, have actually been rather cold. I know now it's just your way of constructive criticism, but that's probably why you think the forum admin is biased against you.

 

I've actually got nothing against you Peregrine. You actually might be a nice guy in real life. It's just the attitude other forum members might perceive as harsh. But who am I to pass judgement.

 

No, we do not embrace imperfections and lack of realism. We try to minimize it up to the limits of the software/hardware. And when I say "imperfections" I mean "it doesn't look like this in reality", not "it doesn't match our idealized view of 'perfection'". Embracing the second kind of imperfection is one thing, saying "those bodies are too 'perfect' and idealized, here's a better one" is a good goal. But we're talking about the second case here, there's no reason to embrace poor texture quality, a poor lighting engine, etc.

Mmm, OK, not quite following you on this one. I suppose when I said "embrace", I was refering to "real-life" imperfections (such as a girl's breast that’s slightly larger than the other, or she's got buckteeth, etc.). And I NEVER said anything about an "idealized" view of perfection. I don't have any views regarding perfection, except that it doesn't exist. And that actually was my goal, to release something that is a bit more realistic, but not too realistic.

 

And I have tried to minimize those imperfections, up to the limit of the software/hardware I have on hand. So, if it still isn't what you expect, then I guess the limits of my software are not high enough. And perhaps my standards aren't as high as yours either.

 

But WHY are you exaggerating it? It's not because it looks better, it's because you want to make sure the bump map is visible. You're repeating a major flaw in modern game art, the idea that a new shader/map type/etc is only good if it's blindingly obvious. Far too many game developers/artists consider a list of shader types the only important factor (and more is always better). So you get a visual style where the newest engine elements are heavily exaggerated, not because they look better, but to prove their product is more advanced than the competition's.

 

And I'm not just making this stuff up, everyone does it. I know I've definitely used my share of exaggerated maps/post-production/etc after discovering a new toy to work with. You just have to move past it and understand the value of subtle detail. Of course some people (Bethesda, for example) don't, and the results are ugly and unfinished.

As a matter of fact, I intentionally made intense normalmaps. And in the process, you've admitted that you're also guilty of this so-called "visual realism" flaw. And what exactly is the "value of subtle detail", hmm? Is it a way for a game mesh to look like the real thing? To make it look exactly how it does in the real world? Because this is exactly the kind of hinderance I'm referring to. When this visual realism interferes with the visual exaggeration one wants to create, to EMPHASIZE (artistically, that is) a visual effect.

 

Take Savng Private Ryan. While it isn't quite the same thing as the issues at hand, I'm using it to point out to you what visual exaggeration has proven. This was a Hollywood blockbuster, as much as it was a recount of the events surrounding and experiences of the American soldiers who fought heroically and died honourably on Omaha Beach during the D-Day invasion of WWII.

 

Much of the action was all emphasized and exaggerated for artisitic purposes with the intent of visual exaggeration. Most of these visuals wouldn't look quite the same in reality, and in fact, some wouldn't even be physically possible (such as the Zippo, or flamethrower, exploding and engulfing surrounding soldiers in the opening beach attack). I know things weren't completely exaggerated, but this is a prime example of the film-makers using visual exaggeration, and being applauded for it.

 

Game devs are just like film-makers in every respect, except their film is the game code and texture maps, and the visual effects pretty much serve the same purpose. If you don't see things this way, then well, like I said, I guess I can't get through to you.

 

I already said what my problem with game developers is: they don't know the meaning of the word "subtle". All these new map types are supposed to be subtle. But instead, they're over exaggerated to prove to the xbox fanboys that yes, their $500 console is really delivering all the fancy shaders the advertising promised.

This sounds familiar... Ah yes, you like PS3 more so than Xbox. Well, I couldn't care less what you like. All I'm gonna say is, when people start (literally) killing one another over a fad console (as was the case with PS3, NOT Xbox), then you know its just a fancy hunk-o-junk technology. I don't care if it uses BD-ROM, Bluetooth, or any other new-fangled technology, IT STILL IS A BIG OL' HUNK-O-JUNK. Besides, I can get MUCH MORE physical exercise playing Wii games than either Xbox OR PS3 games.

 

Besides, what's the difference between the way the shaders game devs use on Xbox and the way the shaders are used on PS3, hmm? Cuz the only thing that separates them is the hardware involved. Game devs creating games for PS3 use pretty much the same tactics to emphasize that their shaders are better than those on Xbox. Perhaps I’m wrong, perhaps I’m not. The only way this issue will go away is if you actually work for SCE, and can prove to me that PS3 is better than Xbox. Or better yet, if you work for MGS, and can prove that PS3 is better than Xbox. I still won’t buy into PS3, but at least I won’t bring this subject up again.

 

What exaggeration, and why do you want to create it? None of this stuff (your texture mistakes, Oblivion's lighting, etc) is creating an exaggerated style. They're creating "exaggeration" which is really just a flawed attempt at photorealism.

What photorealism, and why do you want me to create it? And whatever you mean by "texture mistakes", well, they can be fixed. For the other "mistakes" (my bumpmaps, I assume), refer to my argument above.

 

No, they ARE the point. You said ""realism" really kills the overall "fun factor" of a game. While you might have a point with realism in the form of "one bullet = instant death" gameplay or something, we're talking about visual realism. And that NEVER harms the "fun factor" of the game, it can only improve the experience.

Through your eyes, perhaps, but me, I'm a middle-of-the-road person. I won't take the unrealness to extreme levels, but I'm not gonna take the realism there either. You gotta allow for a little exaggeration, guy. Cut me some slack, and like I said, just let me do what I gotta do.

 

And I will repeat what I just said: just because you've done better than one version doesn't mean your job is finished or your mistakes should be ignored. Congratulations on improving the quality of textures available. Now keep working and improve it more. To paraphrase a well-known quote: "good art projects are never finished, they are only abandoned". Your work (and mine as well) is done when you reach complete perfection, not a moment sooner.

Well, I guess that quote is proven, cuz I'm about ready to give up on this project for the time being. I've practiaclly wasted most of my time, energy, and patience on this thread (my fault really). I've lost pretty much all my drive and will to continue this project. Maybe you were right: I just don't have the time, energy, or patience to invest in modding. BUT, in the mean time, I will continue working on this project, and release SS of the WIP every once in a while. I just hope I don't wait too long to finish it.

 

BTW, about that last bit about perfection, PERFECTION IS UNREAL. IT DOES NOT EXIST, HERE, OR IN THE VIRTUAL WORLD. Let me tell you from my own experience, that trying to be a perfectionist is not worth the time or effort. You can spend your entire life trying to perfect one thing, and in the mean time, everything else has been laid to waste, and all you’ll have left is time. Time to ponder, and regret. Remember that the next time you want to talk to me about "perfection".

 

And right on schedule with your usual anti-Peregrine bias. I have to admit, that's even more impressive than usual, complimenting him on not flaming when he's using at least as aggressive a tone (if not more) than I am.

Perhaps that's where I see differetnly than you. Even tho I've only been a member of these forums a short time (7 mos isn't that long), some of the admin have had to tell me to cool my engines a bit. I still have a tendency to flare up, but I've got my temper in much better control now.

 

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Geez, give it a break. I heard you guys bickering here from another thread.

I can't remember which thread it was, but yes, I did have a "discussion" with Peregrine before...

 

Actually, if I can recall, it was on thread about which next-gen system was better: Wii, PS3, or Xbox 360. But that argument has long been dead by now (I think anyway... I sure hope it is...)

 

As far as texturing goes, you're doing alot better than most the 4 dozen or so nude mods. Flawless isn't going to happen when you have an engine with wonky lighting, and a mesh with less than a 5 billion polly count. Bump maps were made to get around having to manually adapt the mesh to give the impression of a raised surface. As a result, it is by definition, imperfect, and when combined with a lighting system where the edges of those bumps glow, hardly realistic. Meanwhile getting back to the point, will the scores of teenages who download the mod (and who have never seen a real woman naked) notice any problem, much less care?

Some good points made, and I agree that Oblivion's engine is crappolla. The GameBryo engine however (which Oblivion is based on), isn't bad I heard, not perfect, but not as bad as how Bethesda implemented it. And besides, having a mesh with a 5 billion+ poly count is nigh impossible to implement with ANY current game engine without severely lagging memory to point where it becomes .1 FPS :ohmy: !

 

And the scores of teenage boys don't really care about the LOD on nude female meshes, as long as they have big boobs, tight bodies, and pretty faces. That's the kind of unrealistic view of the unclothed female figure I actually strive to dispel, but to my avail, with no success yet. Actually, to tell you the truth, I sometimes lapse into that "horny teenager" phase every now and again (I'm only 21 yrs old for Pete's sake, just barely out of my teens). My GF (thankfully) keeps me in check, tho.

 

But seriously (and to get way off topic), I think the whole view of how a girl's body is supposed to look is totally skewed. Either people want them to look super thin (which is unhealthy), or they want them to look like PlayBoy Bunnies (which isn't necessarily unhealthy, but rather unrealistic).

 

I know my view isn't quite real either, but I can tell you right now, that how my GF looks, she is very beautiful in my eyes. Because of how I've learned to accept her imperfections, she and I have become very close, both emotionally and physically. It's her imperfections that I cherish the most about her, and those are the things that I was referring to before.

 

Everyone makes mistakes, I know I've made my fair share of 'em. It's how one deals with those mistakes that's the most important. They should NEVER be ignored, but sometimes, you can't always correct them.

 

Sorry to say, but as much as peregrine is right about the technical aspects, they really don't matter in the long run. Besides the point, Oblivion is so hopelessly flawed that trying to make anything realistic is beyond any mortal capability.

True, true.

[Peregrine]

On the contrary, I DO actually understand what I'm doing. I just completely forgot what to do first. Mind you, I still don't really know all that much about creating textures, but I at least know just that little bit more than some other texturers who release a shoddy-looking texture, call it "TEH BEST", AND used PS to create it!

 

And I repeat, if you'd just said "I don't know all that much" and asked for help, I could easily show you how to do it. But your response was "it's major impossible editing", not "what tool did you use to do it so easily?".

 

THOSE are the baffoons you should focus your attention on. Not to sound hateful or anything, but your tips, as much as they've been helpful, have actually been rather cold. I know now it's just your way of constructive criticism, but that's probably why you think the forum admin is biased against you.

 

Of course it's cold, I'm not a mindless fanboy. I post my opinion, not lots of extra paragraphs of feel-good praise. And I'd happily go after them if they posted something here (and I do), this isn't an either-or choice. Just because you're doing better than some people doesn't mean I can't criticize all of you.

 

Mmm, OK, not quite following you on this one. I suppose when I said "embrace", I was refering to "real-life" imperfections (such as a girl's breast that’s slightly larger than the other, or she's got buckteeth, etc.). And I NEVER said anything about an "idealized" view of perfection. I don't have any views regarding perfection, except that it doesn't exist. And that actually was my goal, to release something that is a bit more realistic, but not too realistic.

 

And again you completely miss the point. A model of a girl with slightly uneven breasts IS perfect, as long as it looks exactly like the real girl with slightly uneven breasts. In fact, this is a fundamental concept in making 3d art look right, knowing how to do the subtle imperfections that exist in every real object. Maybe "accurate" would be the right word here, if you prefer that.

 

And I have tried to minimize those imperfections, up to the limit of the software/hardware I have on hand. So, if it still isn't what you expect, then I guess the limits of my software are not high enough. And perhaps my standards aren't as high as yours either.

 

Except I gave you some suggestions on how to improve the realism. Oblivion's engine has major flaws, but you haven't reached the limits of realism yet.

As a matter of fact, I intentionally made intense normalmaps. And in the process, you've admitted that you're also guilty of this so-called "visual realism" flaw. And what exactly is the "value of subtle detail", hmm? Is it a way for a game mesh to look like the real thing? To make it look exactly how it does in the real world? Because this is exactly the kind of hinderance I'm referring to. When this visual realism interferes with the visual exaggeration one wants to create, to EMPHASIZE (artistically, that is) a visual effect.

 

I've admitted I've been guilty of the FLAW. And I recognized it, had my fun playing with all the new toys, and made an effort to fix the mistake. Just like any decent CG artist, we learn from mistakes and move on. On the other hand, you pretend it isn't a mistake and refuse to listen.

 

And you're not exaggerating and creating an artistic style. All you're emphasizing is the fact that you've figured out how to add a bump map. You're supposed to emphasize style, not game engine features.

 

 

This sounds familiar... Ah yes, you like PS3 more so than Xbox. Well, I couldn't care less what you like. All I'm gonna say is, when people start (literally) killing one another over a fad console (as was the case with PS3, NOT Xbox), then you know its just a fancy hunk-o-junk technology. I don't care if it uses BD-ROM, Bluetooth, or any other new-fangled technology, IT STILL IS A BIG OL' HUNK-O-JUNK. Besides, I can get MUCH MORE physical exercise playing Wii games than either Xbox OR PS3 games.

 

Uh, what? I hate consoles. ALL consoles. I don't know where you got the idea that I'm some PS3 fanboy, but it's just laughable.

 

And I'm sure the other consoles have similar problems, just like plenty of PC games. The Xbox was just the convenient one to mention, since it's the one Oblivion was designed for.

 

BTW, about that last bit about perfection, PERFECTION IS UNREAL. IT DOES NOT EXIST, HERE, OR IN THE VIRTUAL WORLD. Let me tell you from my own experience, that trying to be a perfectionist is not worth the time or effort. You can spend your entire life trying to perfect one thing, and in the mean time, everything else has been laid to waste, and all you’ll have left is time. Time to ponder, and regret. Remember that the next time you want to talk to me about "perfection".

 

No, it doesn't exist, but that's why you work towards it. Perfection is the goal that should always be in your mind. And it's the general trend in CG art, the technology is improving and so is realism. The last thing you want to do is call it "good enough" and settle for less.

Perhaps that's where I see differetnly than you. Even tho I've only been a member of these forums a short time (7 mos isn't that long), some of the admin have had to tell me to cool my engines a bit. I still have a tendency to flare up, but I've got my temper in much better control now. You may not see it, but I think I know myself a little more than you (if I didn't, then there'd be something awfully wrong).

 

I don't care about any aggressive tone you might have. Switch just doesn't like me and has a habit of focusing on anything I do while ignoring everyone else's offenses. I was just pointing out the irony of him complimenting you on doing the same thing he was complaining about me doing.

 

 

Some good points made, and I agree that Oblivion's engine is crappolla. The GameBryo engine however (which Oblivion is based on), isn't bad I heard, not perfect, but not as bad as how Bethesda implemented it. And besides, having a mesh with a 5 billion+ poly count is nigh impossible to implement with ANY current game engine without severely lagging memory to point where it becomes .1 FPS :ohmy: !

 

By the way, 5 billion polygons isn't even possible with pre-rendered graphics. No computer/software can even load that many polygons, and forget about rendering it.