Fallout 4 scepticism...

[Signette]

Well, I'm sure similar topics were already discussed but I'd like to hear some fresh thought on that matter.

 

It's no secret that there's pretty big hype around Fallout 4, that's pretty obvious since FO3 and FNV were rather successfull games (for wide public anyway). And I really don't want to get deep into discussion about how Beth destroyed classic RPG setting by making no-brainer sandbox FPS from it with levelling and loot, and how graphics are pathetic (especially for action first person shooter) and how Wasteland 2 brings both these games on it's knees story/atmosphere/gameplay and roleplaying-wise. But I'm sure that's rather subjective opinions, I just want to hear more about technical part of the game, not affected by opinions much.

 

So, it's pretty obvious from videos and screenshots that we'll have "upgraded" Creation Engine (a.k.a rebranded ancient Gamebryo from early 2000') on our hands and we have some idea about how it works because Skyrim. Now, Skyrim is fantastic game, I love it with all my heart and I don't even have a problem that 2011 game looks simply awful for it's time, but we have texture/animation packs, ENBs and other stuff making it look like true nextgen. But visuals aside game is simply broken mess, infested with bugs and much more malfunctions which Arthmoor with USKP team successfully ironing out TILL THIS DAY!

(Beth... just why?)

 

Another problem of this engine is ridiculous amount of CTDs and broken saves which is somewhat connected to modding but still happens to users with vanilla games. My Skyrim is modded to some extent (still, not overburdened for sure) and it took me many hours and days to fix this mess because I was getting CTDs basically every 5 minutes... I really wanna bow to Sheson and his famous Memory Patch which saved many lives (mine included) and rather simple solution which somehow Beth had no idea about...

(Really? Do these guys even know how to work with that engine?)

 

Modding is pretty big part of TES and now Fallout games. Without it game feels too flat and unappealing, like raw piece of source code, at least for me. Anyway, if you play on PC you WILL have at least some even minor mods installed like SkyUI maybe?

 

Now to the main problem:

Aside from the fact that FO4 will look ancient (like 2008 FO3 with unnoticable visual improvements considering it's gonna be same ol' first person shooter) because it's really not important... Will we have ANOTHER broken mess on our hands which selfless users and modders will put their time to fix? (and won't be able because it's broken to it's core). In my opinion it's pretty obvious that this Creation-Gamebryo thingy has shown its complete inoperativeness and had to be dumped loooong time ago, but we'll still have to deal with it.

 

Don't you guys afraid that we'll have to deal with the same mess again and Beth doesn't even care about this? It's not about how good game will be on it's gameplay or story part, but more of technical state, which will drain all the fun from it. I sense a major cashgrab here... Sure you can say: don't buy it if you don't like it, but game has insane potential, it's FUN as the concept but can't deliver it because of issues described above. Yeah, I hope that devs will avoid same mistakes but somehow I know they won't...

 

How do you feel about this now?

Edited September 16, 2015 by Signette

[JimboUK]

It will be broken on release because Bethesda's games always are, to make matters worse there'll be no Geck to fix some of those bugs. Even those looking forward to the game should wait a few months rather than having their first play-through ruined by crashes and other things. We do have Steam refunds now, something I hope people make use of if the game is broken on release (it will be), Warner paid the price for their shoddiness with Batman, it's about time Bethesda were punished for theirs.

 

Fallout New Vegas wasn't Bethesda, it was Obsidian and they have plenty of people who worked on the original titles, unlike Fallout 3 it is a proper RPG and the game is true to the franchise, it shouldn't be lumped in with Bethesda's rubbish.

[Maigrets]

This has crossed my mind as well. Even to this day many people believe the Creation Engine to be a different Engine completely than Gamebryo, and when directed to the correct info some still don't believe it.

If it's possible to hate a video game and never intend to have it so much as cross my mind again let alone play it again, then Skyrim is the one for me. Even before mods were released I had my first character who reached 110 hours ruined by a corrupt save for no discernible reason. I was playing, had to exit for a reason I can't remember now as it's too long ago, then later started up the game to find all my saves were corrupt.

 

How can that Happen in a space of hours? I save a lot so I had quite a few saves to try, but none of them would load. I hadn't even progressed very far into the main quest, mainly just exploring the world and doing side quests as they presented themselves. Safe to say I was extremely annoyed.

From there on it never got much better at least with the vanilla game, and there was the patch that gave us backward flying dragons and a few other added bugs with magic. Mods like the Unofficial Patch, Seson's Memory Patch and a few others were life savers to an extent, but the game is faulty at it's core and modders cant fix everything. I know a lot of players say the opposite and say they never had problems, but I wonder if they are more tolerant of bug riddled games than some of us are.

All of Bethesda's games have a faulty saving system so unless you disable all autosaves you're asking for trouble. The so called new scripting system is slow and is problematic with mods and these games are meant to be modded otherwise we wouldn't have the tools. I have many 100's of hours in Skyrim, BUT most of those come from starting over, reaching a certain level of play and having something happen that made it impossible to continue.

 

Looking back I wonder if I was crazy for persisting. However, I might have continued if it wasn't for the fact that for me, at it's heart it's a boring, uninspired game, but I did like the actual world as an exploration walking simulator. Plus, there are a lot of excellent mods made by very talented people that I do miss.

Oblivion had it's issues, but even heavily modded it was always more stable for me. I'm not inexperienced with these games and even made mods for Oblivion, some released, some not. I was always able to fix any problems myself, or find a solution somewhere, but with Skyrim it was the last straw.

The Creation Engine is still a 32bit engine and doesn't handle memory very well so I imagine we'll have the same issues with Fallout 4. I've played other rpg's that use Gamebryo and they don't have the same problems. It seems to me that Bethesda don't really have a full grasp of how to manage their own "creation." Yes, I know they don't own Gamebryo, but they have tweaked it for their use.

A lot of people like to criticize New Vegas for it's bugs, but they fail to realize that Obsidian was rushed into releasing the game by Bethesda and given a very short time frame to finish it. Even then it's more of an rpg than Fallout 3 is, or TES games for that matter, with real branching quests, choices and consequences.

Bethesda don't seem to be able to make games with any depth although Morrowind and Oblivion, to an extent, were exceptions.

I'm currently playing through New Vegas again, fairly heavily modded and have not had a single CTD or other problem in 150 hours over two characters. Fallout 4 is going to require me to upgrade my PC which won't be happening soon so that will give me time to hopefully be able to play when it's been patched a few times.

In the meantime I'm looking forward more to Dark Souls 3 to compliment my 1000's of hours in both previous games of the series.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Maigrets

[RS13]

So the biggest problem--not to mention, as you definitely don't (I mean not even once) the visuals (which have I mentioned you don't mention and aren't the problem)--is that the game will be just like all the previous Bethesda games? Seriously? I don't mean to excuse Bethesda, but you know exactly what you're getting here. There's no "will we get a buggy game?" here. We know we'll get a buggy game. If you like other Bethesda games, then you'll like this one, bugs and all.

Edited September 18, 2015 by RS13

[Maigrets]

So the biggest problem--not to mention, as you definitely don't (I mean not even once) the visuals (which have I mentioned you don't mention and aren't the problem)--is that the game will be just like all the previous Bethesda games? Seriously? I don't mean to excuse Bethesda, but you know exactly what you're getting here. There's no "will we get a buggy game?" here. We know we'll get a buggy game. If you like other Bethesda games, then you'll like this one, bugs and all.

I didn't mention graphics because I don't care about graphics as much as actual quality gameplay, so yes, you're correct, I didn't mention them for that reason. I've seen comments that talk about the graphics and how bad they look. So what? A pretty game doesn't equal a quality game.

 

True, we know what we're getting and have the choice whether or not to purchase. As with all Bethesda games they virtually give us (modders and users) a base from which to create a finished game. Bethesda aren't the only culprits these days either. Most AAA games the past few years have been riddled with bugs or even unplayable. Dragon Age Inquisition is one that come to mind and they are still trying to patch it.

 

The thing is Bethesda are the only developers who create truly open world games where you can be anyone, or do practically anything, so if that's the type of game one likes there aren't many other choices. They have a monopoly and they know it.

 

So, actually, no. I won't necessarily like this one, bugs and all. There comes a time when game developers need to realize their customers are the reason they still exist, but that's a pipe dream.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Maigrets

[Vagrant0]

Graphics look fine to me. But then again I grew up on 8 bit games, was in highschool when polygons were just starting to be practical, and still think Oblivion looks damn sexy once graphics are turned up and LOD distances tweaked. Kids these days with their 4k resolutions and ENB packs, screaming bloody murder because a game runs below 60fps, frankly, just come off as sounding spoiled and greatly missing the part where quality of a game really matters.

 

The S.P.E.C.I.A.L and skill-less system they're intending to go with has me concerned, but still willing to give it a chance. It does feel like alot of complexity is missing from games these days... To where the practice of bringing RPG progression systems into FPS games has started moving too far the other way, where suddenly people with no particular training are now suddenly super soldiers.

 

The part that has me particularly wary is a sneaking suspicion that FO4 will be requiring Windows 10 to run, pushed not because of DX improvements, but as a way for Microsoft to push their adware onto gamers who are not aware of just how much information is being mined and sold to just about anyone who has money, or how much of a serious pain in the ass Win10 is for gamers. And unfortunately, this might be standard practice till consumers get sick of it. This is likely happening because of the way that Bethsoft has been partnering with Microsoft for other exclusive arrangements through XboxOne. It is primarily for this reason that I have no interest in pre-ordering or participating in hype building.

[JimboUK]

Pre-ordering from a digital store is silly anyway, it's not like they're going to run out of copies. I'm a huge Fallout fan but my interest in this title is close to zero, everything I see and hear makes me want it less, their latest wheeze asking people to part with $30 for a season pass while not telling you what you'll get for that $30 has only added to it.

[RS13]

@Maigrets: I was addressing the OP. And sarcastically. I completely agree with you re: graphics.

 

Also, it may be that you won't like the game, but will that really be attributable to bugs? Every Bethesda game is bug-ridden, and seems strange to me to like one game which has a ton of bugs and dislike another very similar game because that game has a ton of bugs. Maybe bugs will be *part of* why you dislike it--e.g., "in Oblivion I was able to overlook the bugs because XYZ was so good, and that wasn't the case in Fallout 4"--but that's not what the OP's on about. He's "skeptical" because we'll get another bug-ridden game. Well you like their other bug ridden games, so what's changed?

Edited September 19, 2015 by RS13

[Signette]

Oh, that's just hilarious: "We know we'll get a buggy game. If you like other Bethesda games, then you'll like this one, bugs and all."

Best possible customer mindset I ever seen, so company keeps shoving bug-ridden, broken, unplayble products our way, aaaand we have to like it, instead of pointing out that it's not how we want it to be and stimulate Beth on working harder on their products that we pay our cash for...

 

Also, very good point mentioned above, as much as Morrowing was broken, with Skyrim they hit the mark, seriously, even most stoic gamers and mod authors literally whining about quality, and that's everywhere... Chances that with FO4 they'll hit new mark, I hope game won't start melting our motherboards on installation at least...

 

Don't get me wrong, idea or rather concept of those games are fantastic, but execution is terrific, if Beth will get their **** together and switch from "Creation Engine" to, say, UE4 OR learn HOW to use this old relic called Gamebryo we would be MUCH more satisfyed, isn't that clear? Well that's my main point anyway.

 

Considering graphics: as I mentioned before - Wasteland 2 (which I finished sever times already) and have absolutely no problems with visuals, because they FIT this game, despite it has been made on Unity!!! (gods forgive). And I also play even today some 8-bit stylized games and have blast with it. BUT Fallout 4 is FPS/TPS, so basically AAA action game, and if it is, it has to be on par with competitors. If they would go for classic isometric view, I wouldn't even have a problem if game would be in full 2D, but they advertise their game as modern high quality product, to appeal mass public in general, so I don't want to see visual knockoff 2008 with same ol' wooden animations and clunky shooting mechanics. I want to enjoy shooting or hitting stuff, like in new Wolfenstein for example. But that's just me and it's FAR from being considerable issue of this game, I'm sure.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Signette

[billyro]

Fallout 4 will have bugs, but it's to be expected of a large open-world game developed by a relatively small team.

 

Do I think Fallout 4 will be awesome? F*** yeah, it's gonna rock! Got a problem with graphics? Mod them. Got a problem with the voiced protagonist? Mod it out. Want to tweak your game to be a paradise with rainbows and chocolate fountains? Then damn bloody well mod it. That's the beauty of Bethesda games! :D

 

If Fallout 4 didn't have mods? Then I wouldn't be looking forward to it quite as much. I'd still get it, but I wouldn't be hyped.