Fallout 4 scepticism...

[JMan240]

As an aside to my last post, I was speaking with the SKSE crew for a freelance article that looks like it won't be happening. The responses are more generalized than you all might need, because I needed explanations of how that stuff worked in their own words, but I'll leave them here.

 

 

F4SE Generally

We intend to work on the Fallout 4 Script Extender (F4SE), but we do not know whether it will be possible or not yet. We were in the same situation before Skyrim came out. The main issue is what level of DRM is used for Fallout 4. If it is just general Steam DRM that we have worked with that before in Skyrim and we were able to get SKSE working fine. If Bethesda chooses a different and more stringent form of DRM, that would make our work impossible from a legal standpoint. Bethesda has been quite supportive of our work in the past, and we have no reason to expect a change in their support or in the DRM. But we can’t know for certain until the game in released.

If the DRM does not change then I would expect us to quite quickly begin working on F4SE when the game is released. The engine seems to be an evolution of the Skyrim engine, and the same Papyrus scripting language will be used. Hopefully that means much of our previous work can be updated and leveraged for the new version of the game.

 

F4SE on Consoles

I agree with the member of the modding community that F4SE for consoles is almost certainly out of the question. Due to the more restrictive nature of the console environment, both in terms of code and the platform owners, I don’t see any possibility of modifications that introduce new code onto the consoles. I imagine that even without script extender support, mods will be more limited on consoles. Perhaps limited to the mod file and corresponding .bsa only. That may make certain types of mods like overhauls or massive texture replacers and the like difficult or impossible to deploy. I think that delivery of mods to the consoles will be through the new Bethesda.net, and there will likely be content limitations on that platform as well.

 

Some specific types of mods that may not be available for the console without F4SE support include major UI mods (SkyUI and its menu enhancements for other mods) and probably even key or button detection scripts. Input detection scripts could be provided by Bethesda for consoles or PC, but that is one set of functionality they have not adopted from our previous Script Extenders. With just those two areas the types of mods that can be created for the console will be quite different.

 

To me this means that there will continue to be a big difference between the mods available for PC and consoles. Assuming my assumptions above are correct (which is honestly little more than educated guessing), the PC will continue to offer richer, larger, more complex and more complete mods. Consoles will get a good taste of what mods can provide: quest, balance and item mods can work fine. Perhaps even the unofficial patches can get to the consoles - which would be great. However the best mod experience is still going to be on the PC, hands down.

 

Some of the other team members may want to pitch in with their opinions as well? I know Ian is well versed in console development and may provide additional insights.

[throttlekitty]

Yeah, Script extenders and the like don't modify the .exe, they modify what's in memory. I'm curious if .nif mods/custom models would make it onto the consoles, IIRC the formatting is a little different, but don't quote me on that.

 

 

I'm also skeptical about the game, maybe I'm just getting old and tired of eating the same meal, or maybe there's some special sauce on this one. But I do know that the charm of the games, bugginess and all has worn off for me at least.

 

What gets me is this undying chant of "Modders will fix it", as if it's the expected norm now. There's no question in people that (other people) are somehow looking forward to 'fixing' whatever needs to be fixed. Or the notion that the games are somehow not enjoyable simply because someone who doesn't work at Bethesda made their mark on it, no matter what that mark may be. Hell, now people who even fell for a preorder on digital goods show this expectation. What if there aren't any good mods? To be honest, I'd like to see how things pan out if none of the community tool writers contributed to Fallout 4.

 

It used to be that we'd fall in love with the game enough to want to make mods. Nowadays if your mod isn't compatible with every other mod and works flawlessly all the time, hoo boy that inbox! I've watched this community grow more toxic with each new installation, it's no wonder the games are getting more dumbed down with each new release.

[WursWaldo]

@throttlekitty

I wish I could upvote your post. This will have to suffice. :thumbsup:

 

On other things; I have been reading various other forums, digging deeply into what FO4 might be and watching every leaked video I can before Zenimax has them removed. From what I can see Tod Howard's next gen game is anything but. That is my personal opinion and I do not expect anyone else to share so save your hatred for someone else.

I have literally spent hours reading, looking at screen captures and watching videos. While it is true all of the imagery is from console play that don't excuse the idiotic way the dialogue functions, or the horrible animations, or the npc AI that is worse than Skyrim's. If you didn't like Lydia charging into battle or enemies running straight at you then you will not like FO4 combat AI. It is the same thing. And there are a lot of load screens and load doors like previous Bethesda games. Also, the quests are linear. It does not matter what dialogue option you pick, it will circle back to 'yes, I will do it.'

 

One last thing; where is the FO4 section for Nexus? By this time in 2011 there was a Skyrim section and people were discussing things there. I was a not a member then, just a free browser but there was also a mods section already in place, but the file pages were not available to be viewed. Does anyone know? :confused:

[JimboUK]

Yeah, Script extenders and the like don't modify the .exe, they modify what's in memory. I'm curious if .nif mods/custom models would make it onto the consoles, IIRC the formatting is a little different, but don't quote me on that.

 

 

I'm also skeptical about the game, maybe I'm just getting old and tired of eating the same meal, or maybe there's some special sauce on this one. But I do know that the charm of the games, bugginess and all has worn off for me at least.

 

What gets me is this undying chant of "Modders will fix it", as if it's the expected norm now. There's no question in people that (other people) are somehow looking forward to 'fixing' whatever needs to be fixed. Or the notion that the games are somehow not enjoyable simply because someone who doesn't work at Bethesda made their mark on it, no matter what that mark may be. Hell, now people who even fell for a preorder on digital goods show this expectation. What if there aren't any good mods? To be honest, I'd like to see how things pan out if none of the community tool writers contributed to Fallout 4.

 

It used to be that we'd fall in love with the game enough to want to make mods. Nowadays if your mod isn't compatible with every other mod and works flawlessly all the time, hoo boy that inbox! I've watched this community grow more toxic with each new installation, it's no wonder the games are getting more dumbed down with each new release.

 

I couldn't agree more, the few things I made for Skyrim stayed on my hard drive, I really didn't want anything to do with that community and I fear with Fallout 4 that things are only going to get worse. Not only will there be the usual influx of unpleasant and self-entitled users you get with every new release but also a bunch of console kiddies, Bethesda should support modding on consoles but I bet they half arse it and this place ends up getting lumbered with them.

[Signette]

Thanks for the post from SE team @JMan240.

 

So, according to that info we still can't be sure if modding will be as open in FO4 is it was in previous titles due to new possible DRM and legal viewpoint. Another issue of modding is actual stability of that "evolved" engine. Feels like as they are trying to strap old mule with more weight until its legs broken. We had major stability issues both in vanilla and even more with heavily modded Skyrim, previous games were MUCH more stable on that account.

 

So, the question is: if modding community will be tied by restrictions described above, I fear if it will be on somewhat console level in the end, like very simplified and chained... At least console players will be happy about this.

ROFL*

Edited November 6, 2015 by Signette

[WursWaldo]

Things I know for sure:

The FO4 EULA is more restrictive than previous Bethesda games.

The game is meant for console players.

There is not a FO4 section here at Nexus. http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/?

Bethesda does not want anything related to FO4 made public unless they control it.

Reviews for FO4 cannot be published until after the game is released.

The game is not Next Gen like Tod Howard claims.

Bethesda will lie about the contents of a game. Think Skyrim and Arkane developing Prey2.

 

Things I suspect:

FO4 modding will be restricted in ways people will not be happy with.

Bethesda wants FO4 modding to be aimed at console users.

There is a secret about FO4 modding we do not know. Like there was for monetized mods.

 

I have been doing a lot of research for FO4 because I want a new game to play that is good. What I am finding is not nice to see. I can not share the links here because some of the site are blacklisted and others might cause problems for Nexus. I am glad I did not pre order the game. I will wait to see what happens. :confused:

Edited November 6, 2015 by WursWaldo

[behippo]

Wow - I don't remember how long ago I sent that email @JMan240 quoted. But it was a while.

 

We'll know a lot more early next week, but things are looking up. BGS confirmed recently that DRM is steam-only, which means that hurdle should be cleared for us. The team is planning to begin work as soon as the game is activated. There will be some significant changes in store for us (64-bit, updated visual studio) but these mean that it will take a little more effort to update our previous code than last time.

 

This is for the PC of course. We still fully expect there is no way to do F4SE on consoles.

[JimboUK]

 

Reviews for FO4 cannot be published until after the game is released.

 

 

That alone should set alarm bells ringing.

 

Wow - I don't remember how long ago I sent that email @JMan240 quoted. But it was a while.

 

We'll know a lot more early next week, but things are looking up. BGS confirmed recently that DRM is steam-only, which means that hurdle should be cleared for us. The team is planning to begin work as soon as the game is activated. There will be some significant changes in store for us (64-bit, updated visual studio) but these mean that it will take a little more effort to update our previous code than last time.

 

This is for the PC of course. We still fully expect there is no way to do F4SE on consoles.

 

Maybe they'll look to add F4SE functionality to consoles in future patches?

[behippo]

 

Maybe they'll look to add F4SE functionality to consoles in future patches?

 

 

It is possible I suppose, but that didn't happen so much with Skyrim. However I expect that it is more likely functions we provided in SKSE have made it into the F4 base papyrus scripts. But we won't know until we get the game.

[Bicceh]

 

 

Reviews for FO4 cannot be published until after the game is released.

 

 

That alone should set alarm bells ringing.

 

 

 

Why exactly?

 

Near enough every AAA title in the last 2 years smacks on a review embargo - It's now basically a given so that no one can leak or talk about anything in regards to the main story in an official way before release.

 

There haven't been many top games that have done it and sucked. Watch Dogs is the only real one i can think of off the top of my head that a review embargo was a bad thing for.