Offering weapon mod realism consulting

[Cybersoldier8]

Hello there everyone, I'm new to this forum, and I wasn't sure where to post this. I've been playing a lot of Fallout 4 recently, and while I think the vanilla game is pretty great, what I really see in Fallout 4 is potentially the best modding platform I've ever seen. The game is just so jam packed with content, I can't wait to see how the various mod developers improve on what Bethesda has done. I want to help create these wonderful mods in whatever way I can.

 

However, I'm not much of a programmer, and even less of an artist. There is one thing though about the fallout universe sticks out at me as something I could have potentially helped with, and that is with the weapon modding and the realism of those mods. For example, the fact that modifying a combat rifle from shooting .45 to shooting .308, a vastly more powerful round, has such a small effect on the damage of the rifle. Another example of this is the hunting rifle, where modifying it to accept .50 cal ammo, a round nearly 50 percent longer than the .308, has no effect on the shape of the magazine. An even worse offender of this is the pipe pistol, where a .50 cal heavy machine gun round magically fits into a chamber the size of a pistol round.

 

This might all sound like minor details to a lot of you, and they probably are, but it contributes to the overall realism of any mods you make. While I don't have a lot of programming experience, and I don't know how to 3d model things, what I do know a lot about is firearms and how they work. So, I would like to offer my services to anyone looking to make weapon mods for fallout 4. I can tell you things converting an AR-15 type rifle between 5.56 and .300 blackout has no effect on the exterior appearance of the gun, so it won't require any additional modeling. Or that a 15 round 9mm magazine will be roughly the same length as a 10 round .40/10 mm magazine. I'm also knowledgeable about the ballistic differences in various ammunition, stuff like how 10mm packs more punch than .45acp. In real life, I also reload my own ammunition, so I know all about the processes involved in that (somebody needs to bring back the reloading from New Vegas).

 

So if you are developing a weapon mod, and you have any kind of question about the realism of it, feel free to ask me. I've seen a lot of potentially great weapon mods for New Vegas ruined because the creators didn't know a thing about real guns. I understand that the fallout universe isn't always the most realistic (mini nukes, looking at you!), but if realism if your goal, give me a shout and I will see if I can help in any way. I want to help make the Fallout 4 modding community better, and this is the only way I can think of that I can.

 

So please, feel free to contact me. I tend to keep really weird and inconsistent hours, so I might get back to you in 5 minutes or it might take a few hours, but I'll try to help as many people as I can.

[WolfmanMODS]

Ahh a fellow fan of .300 blackout! Its the preferred hog round for AR patterns here in the Houston area.

 

Unlike many at Bethesda, it would seem, I too have actually shot real shooty things :cool: and am working on a mod to fix all the so many things they completely screwed up with regards to how ranged weapons work, even accounting for the mad-science level of technology in the Fallout Verse, some of which I have started posting on Twitter under the #Fallout4modsmatter.

 

Now what I could use your help with is cataloging the multitude of things Bethesda, for reason I can only guess, got wrong with regards to weapons; and then to of course figure out how best to redress them. If your still offering to help that is?

[WhiskeyRiver2]

I think you're wrong about the in-game .50 round being the .50 BMG. The side of the box states that it has a 290 grain projectile - that is WAY too light to be a .50 BMG (the slug used in the M33 ball round weighs 645 grains, sits on top of a ~220-250 grain powder charge). That's more similar to bullet weights used in the .50 AE, .50 GI (wildcat round intended as a 1911 conversion option), .500 S&W and .50 Beowulf rounds, all of which could conceivably be used in a properly modified rifle assuming the action is or could be made strong enough to withstand the pressure.

 

Of course, along those same lines, the .45-70 Gov't box clearly states that the round is a 405 grain slug on top of 70 grains of powder - the heaviest powder charge I know of right off for that particular weight of slug is 58.5 grains of Benchmark powder, compressed under a 400 grain slug. A 70 grain charge would be around 20% over-book, no telling how massive the pressure spike would be.

 

 

Anyway. Good luck with the project - you'll probably need it if you plan on fixing even half of the things Bethesda got wrong with guns and ammo >.>

[WolfmanMODS]

Okay so to start running down a list of things wrong about ranged weapons in F04...

 

1. The "Combat Rifle" is actually a submachine gun as it uses pistol cartridges

2. The "Assault Rifle", while the correct ammo type, is waayyy to heavy/bulky to be called such as its modeled after a water-cooled machine gun

3. The Laser Musket was botched to "balance gameplay" as its clearly a crank-to-power laser rifles with no slot for MF cells

4. Though not a new fallacy to Fallout games, gun damage is 90%+ dictated by the bullet fired and not the gun that fires it

5. In no know universe does putting a bayonet on a gun reduce its effective range

6. "Freezing" bullet weapons are magic, not science, because they don't consume the Deus-ex-machina plot device Cryo cell

7. "Irradiating" bullet weapons are also magic because they don't consume the Deus-ex-machina plot device Gamma round

8. "Explosive" & "Incendiary" bullet weapons are Alchemy, not science, because they turn lead into high explosives

9. Though also not a new Fallout fallacy, weapon magazines do not magically appear out of thin air an reload themselves

10. Only a supreme idiot would design a Gatling Laser that would spin and need a moment to "spin up"

11. Changing a weapon receiver from Semi to Auto should not make a measurable difference in damage done

12. Similarly you cant increase gun damage by building a "more advanced" receiver

 

XIII. And for the love Newton, Galileo, Einstein, & Tesla, ¡¡¡YOU CAN'T CREATE A NEVER ENDING MAGAZINE!!!!!!!!!!!

Still haven't heard back from Isosceles on this paticualr logical travesty but I doubt his side of issue would be any different :cool:

 

 

 

So that's is my list so far, have anything to add to it?

[Cybersoldier8]

Okay so to start running down a list of things wrong about ranged weapons in F04...

 

1. The "Combat Rifle" is actually a submachine gun as it uses pistol cartridges

2. The "Assault Rifle", while the correct ammo type, is waayyy to heavy/bulky to be called such as its modeled after a water-cooled machine gun

3. The Laser Musket was botched to "balance gameplay" as its clearly a crank-to-power laser rifles with no slot for MF cells

4. Though not a new fallacy to Fallout games, gun damage is 90%+ dictated by the bullet fired and not the gun that fires it

5. In no know universe does putting a bayonet on a gun reduce its effective range

6. "Freezing" bullet weapons are magic, not science, because they don't consume the Deus-ex-machina plot device Cryo cell

7. "Irradiating" bullet weapons are also magic because they don't consume the Deus-ex-machina plot device Gamma round

8. "Explosive" & "Incendiary" bullet weapons are Alchemy, not science, because they turn lead into high explosives

9. Though also not a new Fallout fallacy, weapon magazines do not magically appear out of thin air an reload themselves

10. Only a supreme idiot would design a Gatling Laser that would spin and need a moment to "spin up"

11. Changing a weapon receiver from Semi to Auto should not make a measurable difference in damage done

12. Similarly you cant increase gun damage by building a "more advanced" receiver

 

XIII. And for the love Newton, Galileo, Einstein, & Tesla, ¡¡¡YOU CAN'T CREATE A NEVER ENDING MAGAZINE!!!!!!!!!!!

Still haven't heard back from Isosceles on this paticualr logical travesty but I doubt his side of issue would be any different :cool:

 

 

 

So that's is my list so far, have anything to add to it?

 

It's been a while since I have played Fallout 4. I played after Automatron came out, but it broke so many of my mods that I decided I wasn't gonna bother playing again until all the DLC was out so that I didn't have to constantly fix mods. I'm waiting until Nuka world comes out, then for all my favorite mods to get updated, THEN I am going to do another play through. So it has been a while, and I might have forgotten a few things.

 

To start, everything on your list is 100% correct in terms of real world physics.

 

Next up, all of the sniper rifles in the game are left handed, when in real life the vast, VAST majority of bolt action rifles are for right handed shooters.

 

Creating a repeating firearm, let alone a semi or full auto like the pipe weapons can be, out of salvaged parts, is basically impossible without advanced machining tools like a lathe and milling machine. The most rudimentary pipe weapons that are the easiest to create would be slam fire shotguns. Something like this could actually be made with just some right size bits of pipe and a pocket knife to whittle out the stock.

 

I haven't played any DLC since automatron, so I don't know if this is still true, but at that point in the game, there wasn't any kind of real "assault rifle" in the game, despite them being the standard military rifle in all the previous fallout games. Like you said, the Fallout 4 "Assault Rifle" is closer to a water cooled machine gun (Why are they still using water cooled guns when the game already includes examples of air cooled guns?), and the combat rifle is closer to an old school battle rifle.

 

.45 ACP ammo would not work in a revolver like the pipe revolver without moon clips.

 

.38 ammo is stupid and should have just been replaced with 9mm ammo.

 

Laser weapons should not have recoil because light does not have mass.

 

Increasing the barrel length of any ballistic firearm should increase velocity, thereby improving damage slightly.

 

Converting a firearm to accept a different, larger caliber will almost always require changing the external dimensions of the receiver/ barrel.

 

The combat rifle's magazine well is like 3 times wider than it needs to be to accept the single stack magazine it takes.

 

If ammunition has weight, the magazine that hold that ammunition should also have weight.

 

Power armor now requires fusion cells, even though there is nothing in the lore to support this.

 

5mm ammo is stupid and shouldn't exist. 5.56mm ammo should just be a lot more common, and the minguns should just take 5.56. Options to convert the minigun to fire 7.62 and .50 ammo do make sense, but would require bulking up the weapon.

 

Heavy weapons like the minigun and gatling laser should only be usable with power armor.

 

Using normal small arms like assault rifles and pistols while in power armor would be nearly impossible because of the added bulk in the hands.

 

10mm is a vastly more powerful round than .38/9mm and should be reflected in the damage numbers.

 

Cartridge reloading should be a thing. Fallout New Vegas did it perfectly, and I have no idea why they dropped it. I don't know if there are mods to recreate that yet.

 

Guns need to be cleaned every few thousand rounds to keep them functioning. It could be argued that not cleaning guns is just artistic liberty, but given the fact Fallout 3 and NV had degrading guns, I'd like to see a mechanism for guns getting more dirty and jamming as you use them, although outright breaking like in 3 and NV is a bit excessive. A gun breaking should be a very rare event.

 

Carrying more than 1 or 2 long guns plus a sidearm would be very difficult just because of the bulk involved, let alone the weight.

 

This is less of a gun thing, more of a realism thing, players are capable of carrying way too much weight in the vanilla game. An average combat load for the military weighs roughly 60 pounds, double that for long patrols. An average guy carrying around 300 pounds all day is ridiculous. In fitting with the lore, power armor would allow you to carry much more gear.

 

Going hand in hand with the reloading thing, every caliber has different loadings. 55 grain 5.56mm vs 62 grain. 150 grain 7.62 vs 175 grain. Buckshot vs slugs. Again, Fallout NV did this perfectly.

 

That's pretty much everything I can think of off the top of my head. Like I said, it's actually been a while since I played, so there is probably more stuff I am forgetting.

[dazzerfong]

One more to add:

 

Suppressors (at least proper ones) don't affect ballistics negatively at all. In fact, some old suppressors actually increased muzzle velocity a bit.

 

Other notes:

 

As to why they took out ammo reloading: many people simply didn't care for it enough. I for one never used anything beyond ball rounds. Weapon maintenance, same reason: that being said, I'd prefer that the game actually required you to clean your gun after 5k rounds or something to make it less annoying.

 

Light is massless but has momentum: thus, yes, your gun will recoil. With an equivalent KE to a corresponding bullet, it's much less though and should definitely be pinned down. However, a laser is much less efficient, and thus should require a lot more energy to do some damage.

 

FO4 is lore, so they just retconned previous games in that it requires fusion cores that degrade quickly. In the past, they had fusion cores, but lasted much longer.

 

I pretend that the 5mm ammo is actually .22LR: at least that explains why the minigun is utterly useless.

[WolfmanMODS]

Alright I think we more or less have all the issues identified, now for the best case solutions, for which I should mention the first MOD I plan to make to address these is just going to be a Mad-Science based re balance MOD that wont import any new modeling assets.

 

Also worth noting is that I'm trying to create a plausible F04 weapons experience, and not ARMA, as my main motivation for this MOD is that I can't play the game anymore now that "The Shiny" is worn off, and the game insulting my real world intelligence every time I pull the trigger just ruins the immersion.

 

So to that end this my current plan:

1. Every weapon type will only shoot one caliber of ammo, multiple weapon types might shoot the same caliber, but you wont be able to make a .380 hunting rifle be able to shoot a 50BMG for which I should note that I will add "Elephant Gun" to the legendary drops list that shoots 50BMG. Subsequently 90% of weapon damage will be based on the ammo it uses and long barrels, except on revolvers, will add 10% damage

 

2. Speaking of ammo, magazine fed guns will require the player to craft and keep loaded magazines of ammo for them to use, loading while in combat will not be allowed so this gameplay mechanism will finally give a much more meaningful role to revolvers and non-magazine shotguns, which will still use loose ammo.

 

3. Also with regards to realistic weapon balancing, as to offset their shear firepower advantage, all semi & fully automatic weapons, will now have a chance to jam based on the quality of the gun. Unlike previous Fallout titles the condition of the gun wont degrade over the course of the game, as that was a big fun-kill, so once a particular gun is fully upgraded to the highest quality, it will become 99.99% jam free, unless junk-rounds are used, and stay that way. Also the chance to Jam will become less the higher the players luck is, I know that's not science, but it sure is Fallout!

 

4. Speaking of like-Fallout I agree that fabrication of weapons/accessories is way to over simplified, but its a definite step up from previous games and likely to be a kill-joy if made too much more complex, so for now it stays as is, albeit you still wont be able to fabricate new weapons, aside from pipe weapons, as that would throw off the game economy.

 

5. With regards to pipe weapons, the "bolt action" receiver will finally be useful as it will be the only mag fed receiver that does not jam. Also semi & automatic pipe weapons will upgrade, not by having a significantly less chance to jam but by being able to use 9mm ammo and not explode in the players face from over-pressure. You are correct about moon-clips so pipe revolves will balance by being much slower to reload on the base level, and can then be upgraded to use moon-clips.

 

6. Speaking of alternate ammo, Incendiary, Cryo, Gamma, & a few other round types will be able to be crafted from standard rounds, but will require various Deus-ex-machina plot devices such as Cryo cells & Gamma rounds to make. Junk rounds will be able to be crafted too, but not turned into alternate ammo types, I know that's not entirely realistic but its Fallout-consistent and should create a for a good game balancing mechanic.

 

7. Laser/plasma weapons wont have nearly as many quirks to deal with, but they will do only about half as much damage as projectile weapons. Given that more realistic balancing will likely double the damage of projectile weapons, this means that they will like still have the same base damage as they do now.

 

8. On the subject of energy weapons, the laser musket will use MF "electrical primers", as its an alternator not a generator after all, the hand crank will then allow 3-4 times more total damage per MF cell than the laser rifle, also the legendary Laser Musket will have a fusion breeder and not require any MF cells.

 

9. Speaking of laser weapons, laser weapons will still have recoil as they are Laser-Bolters not true laser rifles, which means they can recoil, but the recoil has to be symmetrical.

 

10. Also on the subject of weapon overhauls, the "Combat Rifle" will use 556 instead of 45ACP, and have select fire, also as the CR is obviously a hurried spin-off of the combat shotgun it just might be an exception to the rule that I wont be using any new modeling assets, as something like this, would be much more apt.

 

11. The "Assault Rifle" will become the "LMG" possibly an "MMG" and shoot .308, damage will be the same per shot as the hunting rifle but balanced by the rarity of .308 & jamming of course

 

12. The Gatling Laser will not longer spin up, or at the very least, have a firing delay, also the regular Gatling gun will be smaller scaled as to reflect it shoots 5mm not 50cal as to be true Minigun, with a full size 50cal actual Gatling gun being a legendary-behemoth drop item.

 

13. On the subject of legendary-drops almost all the current Legendary effects will be scrapped, as they are either magic and/or alchemy in nature and replaced scientific ones such as such as "Doesn't Jam" & "Perfect Accuracy". Eventually, I will add new unique weapon models to the game that will be come the unique-weapons, and some of the legendary drop weapons, but that's a ways in the future.

 

14. Lastly, if I can figure out how to code it, certain mods will be able to be hot-swapped such as suppressors and sights.

 

 

Note: How power armor functions, and how how many weapons the player can carry at once, will not be in the purview of this mod, but keep them in mind as I have future overall-game-balancing MOD planned that will address them.

[SayinNuthin]

Total endorse Cybersoldier's statement "Creating a repeating firearm, let alone a semi or full auto like the pipe weapons can be, out of salvaged parts, is basically impossible without advanced machining tools like a lathe and milling machine."

 

I'd only add that even if you had micrometer level machine tools, your still not going to produce anything reliable out of scrap metal sourced from 200 year old vehicle body parts and cooking pots. You will need high quality materials as well.

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But then I freely admit to hating all the Pipe-Guns in the game for being infeasibly ugly and would be delighted to see any NPC using one for more than a couple of rounds have their fingers blown off when the receiver disintegrates under the stress. As a weapon of absolute, back-to-the-wall desperation.. fine.. Or used by terminally stupid Super-muties and reckless, drug addled raiders.. Okay. But used well, and efficiently?

 

Uh-uh.. Not happening.

[Courier07]

If I can make a quick suggestion, how about making all 5mm ammo have a basic armor piercing bonus, similar to NV? That way, they'll have more usage against heavily armored enemies.