Moraelin Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I will disagree with, "If the player character cares about the Commonwealth, it's likely only because the game has forced them to spend some time in it." I don't see why I'd need any extra indoctrination to think it's not OK to just murderize people for being racially impure mongrels who just try to survive and pose no threat, or worse, to experiment on them. Hell, the institute just murderized every single soul in Vault 111 except the baby and the backup, just to tie up some loose ends, even though they don't even have the racial purity excuse for that: those people were actually less mutated than even the institute members, which is why they looked for DNA there. It's like saying that if you woke up 1930 as a relative of Stalin, and were offered a nice villa and a luxury life, a seat in the central committee of the communist party, and be groomed for his successor, you'd have no reason to not just side with Stalin. I mean, why would you care about the Ukrainians he's starving, or about the millions he's killing otherwise, if you didn't live among them, right? Well, let's just say, some of us would still have a conscience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOriginalEvilD Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Ultimately I think the best choice would be taking over the Institute and steering them in the right direction, if that's even possible. They have the ability to "fix" most of what's wrong with the world, while the BOS can't see the forest for the trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moraelin Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 The only thing I'm not convinced is if that's realistically possible. You get to be a director, not a dictator. There's already been a standoff just for having you nominated. I think that if you try to change course too abruptly, that's just a taste of what's to come. Imagine what happens if later Synth Reclamation decides to revolt, because they do have all the coursers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raycheetah Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Ultimately I think the best choice would be taking over the Institute and steering them in the right direction, if that's even possible. They have the ability to "fix" most of what's wrong with the world, while the BOS can't see the forest for the trees. That depends on how much the character (or player) is willing to stomach in order to get there. On how many betrayals, how many corpses, would the Sole Survivor be willing to build Utopia? If Bethesda even provided any such direction after the Institute ending, it might seem easier to justify (as a player), but, after Father dies, nothing really changes, and the Institute goes on being the evil schemers they've always been, except that there is no longer anyone left to oppose them. Your character becomes Director? So what? All you get is snark and BS dirty work from the Old Guard, and none of the injustices wrought (the kidnappings/replacements/human experimentation and subsequent unleashing of super mutants in great quantity upon the Commonwealth, the raiding and destruction of settlements like University Point, the ongoing production and enslavement of Synths, political disruptions such as the assassination of the Commonwealth delegates, as well as other exploitative, destabilizing activities, all justified by the notion that the people outside the Institute are somehow "doomed") go unrighted. The SS essentially becomes as much a slave to the Institute as the Synths. Well. At least they have clean bathrooms and pretty atriums to wander around in, while they "redefine" mankind. ='[.]'= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aintiarna Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 The only thing I'm not convinced is if that's realistically possible. You get to be a director, not a dictator. There's already been a standoff just for having you nominated. I think that if you try to change course too abruptly, that's just a taste of what's to come. Imagine what happens if later Synth Reclamation decides to revolt, because they do have all the coursers. Well, you do have the opportunity to frame Ayo and get rid of him. It's quite satisfying. What I was trying to suggest was that a place where almost everyone and everything was trying to kill you and everything was a crumbling ruin, would be hard to care about in _reality_. Game worlds are easy because you are not putting your life on the line, it's just your character. It's not real. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aintiarna Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) Ultimately I think the best choice would be taking over the Institute and steering them in the right direction, if that's even possible. They have the ability to "fix" most of what's wrong with the world, while the BOS can't see the forest for the trees. That depends on how much the character (or player) is willing to stomach in order to get there. On how many betrayals, how many corpses, would the Sole Survivor be willing to build Utopia? If Bethesda even provided any such direction after the Institute ending, it might seem easier to justify (as a player), but, after Father dies, nothing really changes, and the Institute goes on being the evil schemers they've always been, except that there is no longer anyone left to oppose them. Your character becomes Director? So what? All you get is snark and BS dirty work from the Old Guard, and none of the injustices wrought (the kidnappings/replacements/human experimentation and subsequent unleashing of super mutants in great quantity upon the Commonwealth, the raiding and destruction of settlements like University Point, the ongoing production and enslavement of Synths, political disruptions such as the assassination of the Commonwealth delegates, as well as other exploitative, destabilizing activities, all justified by the notion that the people outside the Institute are somehow "doomed") go unrighted. The SS essentially becomes as much a slave to the Institute as the Synths. Well. At least they have clean bathrooms and pretty atriums to wander around in, while they "redefine" mankind. ='[.]'= The people outside the Institute are doomed and the sooner you accept it and stop bleating about it the better. :tongue: Seriously though, the institute is not responsible for unleashing supermutants on the commonwealth. Read the terminals. All of them were created by FEV infection in the lab and then killed. Siding with the institute is for players who want a ruthless option. It's not what I would call out and out evil like blowing up Megaton, but it's satisfyingly ruthless when you're bored of babysitting helpless farmers for Preston. My current character is wandering the wastes in a Courser uniform and treating the slightest rudeness with extreme prejudice. It's amazing how many people get turned into an ash pile on that basis. Edited December 30, 2015 by tirnoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raycheetah Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 My bad. Since the "Toot" didn't unleash the supermutants, I'll give 'em a pass on all that other stuff. =^[.]~= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moraelin Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 The only thing I'm not convinced is if that's realistically possible. You get to be a director, not a dictator. There's already been a standoff just for having you nominated. I think that if you try to change course too abruptly, that's just a taste of what's to come. Imagine what happens if later Synth Reclamation decides to revolt, because they do have all the coursers. Well, you do have the opportunity to frame Ayo and get rid of him. It's quite satisfying. Nevertheless, he's just standing in for Zimmer, and there's a whole slew of other a-hones who are having a profound disdain for the mongrels above (see, for example, initial dialogues in Bioscience) and willing to use a Courser and violence just for not getting a lolipop from the other departments. (See, initial overhead talk when you enter Synth Reclamation.) I hate to Goodwin a thread -- never mind that it already had been -- but think about earining the Führer position in 1942, right after the Wannsee conference deicided on the Final Solution. DO you actually thinkt that you could just change direction abruptly, just like that -- and ok, maybe frame Himmler -- without getting the rest of the party assassinating you and carrying on? Really? What I was trying to suggest was that a place where almost everyone and everything was trying to kill you and everything was a crumbling ruin, would be hard to care about in _reality_. Game worlds are easy because you are not putting your life on the line, it's just your character. It's not real. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point. Game worlds ARE easy, because you can realistically make a difference, instead of being yet another guy who opposed Stalin and got purged. But whether or not you're feeling anything for the victims is quite a different question, isn't it? Saying you need any extra conditions to feel for them than being a normal human being, well, that's a whole other proposition than just playing it safe, isn't it? So, by a unique set of random flukes of the universe, and totally unlikely to ever happen like that again, you're in a position to basically stop the Third Reich. or Stalin's great genocide, or Pol Pot's genocide, or whatever. Do you use that chance to save countless innoncents, or do you think that your own living a luxury life is totally worth their suffering, pain, fear and death? Do you need any extra conditions and experiences to think that killing innocents is NOT worth a bit of luxury for yourself? Do you even feel anything for those innocent victims? Do you actually need to live among them to feel the most basic human compassion? Well, that's the questions you're going to have to answer for yourself. And discover a bit about the role you're playing and the priorities behind it in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aintiarna Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 @moraelin Ah yes, actions vs. feelings. I think we mostly agree after all. My current character is sticking with the Institute mostly because of loyalty to you know who and because she thinks topside is just too unbearable to contemplate living there any longer. I'm sure it troubles her conscience nonetheless, but the wasteland has brutalised her. I think you can moderate big organisations like that, but it takes subtle pressure, lots of time and patience. As director of the Institute, the first thing my character would do is resurrect the longevity project that helped our other Institute friend with the fancy gun. She might live long enough to make a few changes. And Zimmer. I assumed that whole talking about him in FO4 thing was just a smokescreen. I killed him a few times in FO3 so I'd imagine he's not coming back. Not sure what the cannon is going to be though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moraelin Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I think if Ayo is still standing in for him after 10 years, then the canon is that he didn't die in FO3. I mean, information may travel slowly in the FO world, but 10 years is half a flipping generation. They'd at least pronounce him MIA. Just a guess, really :wink: As for the rest, well, that's my point, pretty much. An organization like the Institute, full of a-holes that were more than willing to experiment on humans and even murderize humans just to test some mild curiosity, even just as disproportionate when compared to the ends as testing some new watermelon seeds, is going to take a LOT of time and subtle pressure to turn around. We're talking decades at the very least. Or you could just shoot them in the head and let the world heal right now. We kinda took that as the best option after WW2, you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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