Alchemy - Tedious and Unnecessary?

[notmyhome]

I sometimes roll an almost pure alchemist and only throw in some Alteration. Damage is dealt by poisoning my enemies, then paralyzing them. Seeing their foes helplessly laying on the floor while their life is sapped away brings joy to these bastard's dark hearts.

[DoctorKaizeld]

i actually miss the alchemy lab thing from previous games. it made it so you had to upgrade your lab as you go if you wanted the good stuff. it think it would have been better if they had the lab tables and as you progress you can level up your table by buying or finding better equipment.

[Lachdonin]

Oh, I meant MW is extremely Konsole Kiddie dumbed down, not Alchemy. I added that I love Alchemy at the end. Maybe I should have re-read the entire paragraph?

Yeah, it was the dual subject that got me. I read it as applying the quality statement to both subjects, rather than the primary. My bad.

 

It Skyrim hasn't really been Dumbed Done either. Changed, yes, but very little has been lost or had control diminished. Most things, from hit-chance to Attributes to Spell Making have simply been moved to other mechanics (such as AI and mobile enemies, Perks and hand-linked spells) while some unforseen exploits have been controlled.

 

Dumbing down is more like replacing a fully interactive chase scene with a QTE. The only 2 changes which can really be considers dumbed down are Dispostion, and map markers...

 

But that's not really the point. Alchemy in TES has always been a barely functional mechanic that is practically mandatory... But it's a symptom of a larger problem, and something that can't really be corrected without tackling gameplay as a whole.

 

For what it is, it's decent. But it's certainly not good.

[Shadeybladey]

 

Oh, I meant Skyrim is extremely Konsole Kiddie dumbed down, not Alchemy. I added that I love Alchemy at the end. Maybe I should have re-read the entire paragraph?

Yeah, it was the dual subject that got me. I read it as applying the quality statement to both subjects, rather than the primary. My bad.

 

It Skyrim hasn't really been Dumbed Done either. Changed, yes, but very little has been lost or had control diminished.

 

I made a major typo, so I fixed it. I meant Skyrim is very dumbed down relative to Morrowind. Not just in terms of game play, class design and mechanics but the entire quest system and style of playing. It is simply nonsense to argue otherwise. For one thing, there were 27 skills in Morrowind and only 18 in Skyrim. Try and play an Unarmoured, Unarmed Mystic Monk in Skyrim without a major perk tree overhaul mod. In fact, there were many things about Daggerfall which were simply superior. Beth have a habit of doing that: they tend to change everything between each release and, although they introduce a lot of improvements, they tend to overshadow those with changing all the good stuff into garbage or deleting it entirely as they moved towards a Konsole market with ports to PC. As much as I love Skyrim, there were so many things about Daggerfall and Morrowind that were just better. Morrowind's Alchemy was much better than Daggerfall's, though. Of course, if you want to role-play a Thief or Assassin you should not be using Smithing and Enchanting at all, just Alchemy. Nor should you use any Magick skills. Similarly, a Fighter should not be using Alchemy or Enchanting. This is probably why most people play Nightblades, Spellswords, Battle Mages etc.

 

 

And you never needed to carry hammers into dungeons. I have a house mod I made for Morrowind and use the Multimark Mod which lets me set 12 Mark and Recall points, just as Vanilla should have done. The first one I set is at the table with the stone dwemer box for Alchemy reagents and I have chests for smithing gear where I store my hammers. In Skyrim, you can carry 5,000 lbs or 10,000 lbs or 100,000 lbs of gear and still walk at normal speed - you just cannot run and sprint, which is pretty dumbed down for the nano-second attention span of the Konsole Kiddie generation. Plus not having to think about your character's build and progression beyond choosing perks and which of three attributes to improve is pretty dumbed down. Even completely dumb people can play the game with no thought at all and no consequences for playing like a complete dumb ass.

[RGMage2]

Well I like alchemy. :smile: For me it has nothing to do with leveling or making an all powerful invincible character. It's about role playing, pure and simple. Role playing an alchemist is one of the most immersive things I can do in Skyrim, but each to their own. :mellow:

[Lachdonin]

Removal of skills doesn't instantly equate to dumbing down though. Sometimes, divided skills actually limit options. The weapon skills, for instance. Armour is another one. Other changes are made for the sake of better world design and realism. Removing Unarmoured for instance (clothing isn't going to protect you like armour, and having a mechanic work that way is frankly sloppy).

 

The issue is far more complex than tha often-complained 'Dumbing Down'. In fact, stating it that way is dumbing down the problem. It's like saying that Voice Acting automatically means less dialogue, when the volume of dialogue is a factor of writing, Acting, interface control and character design.

[Shadeybladey]

Well I like alchemy. :smile: For me it has nothing to do with leveling or making an all powerful invincible character. It's about role playing, pure and simple. Role playing an alchemist is one of the most immersive things I can do in Skyrim, but each to their own. :mellow:

 

I could not agree more. In fact, I just checked out your Alchemist's Compendium.

 

I have been working on a Herbalists, Healers and Poisoners Role-Playing Alchemy mod for quite some time (I took a break for a year).

 

It adds several books of recipes for various types of multi-effect potions which are available in expensive, printed books you can buy or, if you prefer, you can steal the hand-written manuscripts from the authors (I have friends who love playing Thieves and Burglars; they would never pay actual cash for anything and try to do complete play-throughs purely by stealing and looting everything they need). Also, with reverse Pickpockets, they love being able to Paralyse AND Poison a victim while in Stealth.

 

The Manuscripts are scripted to teach you the recipes when you read them, but you must actually own the book in inventory for it to work. If you just Read it and put it back, you get a message saying you have to actually steal it to learn the recipes, so you can't just drop it if you get caught stealing and learn the recipes anyway. You have to actually "own" the book in inventory, even if it is flagged as stolen. Or, you can buy the published version. The printed books have their own scripts just to teach you the recipes. You get a screen message telling you the effects you have learned when you successfully learn the recipes.

 

Also, amongst other things, my mod makes the perk tree more logical;

* splits the tree into Poisoner and Healer branches;

* changes Physician to Herbalist and Benefactor to Healer;

* adds a new Apothecary perk for Healers in opposition to Toxicologist (Concentrated Poison);

* everyone can access Experimenter after they take Novice Alchemist;

* anyone can access Green Thumb through both the Healer and Poisoner branches;

* all the perks have been tweaked to make more sense and be more balanced between the two main branches;

* EG Purity also improves the quality of Restore potions by 15%, as well as removing contradictory effects;

* All commercially available potions and poisons have been re-worked to better match what you can brew at various skill levels;

* You can brew Cure Poison potions;

* everything has been re-named for better sorting

 

 Gr Master  100                                  Purity                                 100
             95                                     |                                    95
             90                                     |                                    90
             85                        /--------Snakeblood--                             85
 Master      80                       /      /      |       \         Master Alchemist   80
             75  Experimenter III    /      /       |        \               |           75
             70        |            /      /   Green Thumb    \              |           70
             65        |           /      /    /          \    \             |           65
 Expert      60        |          /      |    /            \    |     Expert Alchemist   60
             55  Experimenter II /       |   /              \   |            |           55
             50        |        /   Toxicologist         Apothecary          |           50
             45        |       /         |                      |            |           45
 Adept       40        |      /           \                    /      Adept Alchemist    40
             35  Experimenter I            \                  /              |           35
             30         \              Poisoner           Healer             |           30
             25          \                   \              /                |           25
 Apprentice  20           \                   --¬Herbalist---         Apprent Alchemist  20
             15            \                        |                        |           15
             10             \                       |                       /            10
              5              \                      |                      /              5
 Novice       0               \-------------Novice Alchemist--------------/               0

 

I like the way it kind of looks a bit like an opium poppy or a black lotus. I don't know why the forum board has squished it, though...

 

So that I could make recipes for potions from Daggerfall and Morrowind (without having to worry about new meshes and textures or plants and animals to harvest them from and spawn points to generate the plants and animals), I created new equipment to turn food, junk and clutter into new ingredients and reagents. Gold ore, iron ore, gems etc can be made into gold dust, iron filings, ground gems etc; extracts and essences can be made from food; horns, skulls, tusks etc can be ground up to make ingredients and so on. I even have a patch for RND.

Sadly, RND seems to be abandoned and now kryptopyr has made a combined Alchemy AND Cooking mod which DOES add new ingredients with meshes and textures and plants and animals they can be harvested from, in collaboration with many other authors.

 

It also seems to attempt to replace a Realistic Needs mod in the cooking aspects. Just as I was starting to look at iNeed.

 

It also seems that he has been able to change how potions are named so they match what we can buy, but I have not actually looked at it yet. I could not do this, but I could change the names of the ingredient effects so the potions I make mimic the commercially available brews, except they do not state the power level or rank.

 

He has also (of course) added Cure Poison potions but seems to have made what we can brew better match what we can buy, whereas I did it vice versa.

 

I was thinking of trying it out, but I hate what he has done with the perk tree. I went back to headbomb's CCO with Sharlikran's patch because the new, remade CCO went way beyond doing what it said on the tin and interfered with my death hound, silver and mithril crafting mods.

 

Maybe I could make a patch for it and use both Alchemy mods? I have no idea how my mod would impact his ingredients. I also use 101 Bugs by 83Willows, but I did not touch his/her insect ingredients and don't remember if they are affected.

 

Funny, isn't it, how some people can find a certain Skyrim skill to be utterly worthless, while others not only like it so much they always use it, but they also mod their game to enhance it as much as possible and even spend a lot of time learning how to make their own mods for it?

 

:D:

[RGMage2]

@Shadeybladey

That is obviously a labor of love you are working on. I'm sure there are a lot of alchemists out there who will enjoy playing your mod. I wouldn't worry too much about compatibility, do what you can but the bottom line is to make it the way you want it to be. Don't compromise your vision just for compatibility. :smile:

[Shadeybladey]

Possibly, but I only ever uploaded any mods so friends in Australia could download them as they were too large to e-mail (although I have Drop-Box now and my mods are hidden). I was surprised how much positive feedback I got from "passing-trade" and "window shoppers", but I am not in it for the "Glory". I try to integrate all my mods into the game by creating new stuff, rather than over-overriding Vanilla, so they can be removed with no impact on anything else and actually add stuff rather than replace stuff. I also like to have mini-side quests to introduce the new stuff, rather than just placing it in a chest, at a vendor or using console codes to get them in to the game. The Alchemy mod actually needs to replace all the vanilla forms for ingredients, effects and recipes, as well as add a lot of new ones and change the perk tree. None of my mods are "beautifiers" or add pretty graphics and textures, which most people seem to care about more than anything else. I would like to take a closer look at kryptopyr's Alchemy overhaul and see how much my mod overlaps with it. He does sometimes have alternate Perk Trees, like maybe a Vanilla one plus one or two modded versions. Of course, he already adds a lot of new potions and poisons that I already added, so there may be clashes.

[KanesGhost]

I am an Alchemy fan also...with Mods you can make Skyrim as easy or as challenging as you want, without unbalancing the Game...I am no fan of Bethesda's difficulty settings, is very unbalancing, so I prefer to use Mods to correct that issue.

 

It's all in how you choose to build your Game and what you use in game...Alchemy is not unbalancing if you choose not to be a 'God' in game, or surrounded by your own personal Army...and RP it...My favorite Skyrim Avatar is a Stealthy Poison's Archer Light Armored (never above Leather) Lone Wolf (also Smiths his gear) who relies only on his Bow, Traps and Ambushes whether the Battles be distant or Melee...using no beneficial Potions (no Healing, Skill Boosting, etc...Potions) only using Poisons (uses Bandages for a slow heal)...and does not touch or use any forms of Magic or Magical Items...add some improved Skill Tree's and agility skills, such as being able to dodge, etc...then some nightmarishly tough NPC Enemy Mods and Combat AI Improvement Mods...and Alchemy is suddenly your best friend, you couldn't survive without it :smile:

Edited December 2, 2015 by KanesGhost