LOOT (aka BOSS) for FO4?

[jet4571]

Seriously not going to test to see if I am correct or not? Just going to double down on outdated knowledge that's isn't relevant anymore and then tell me I am an idiot who knows nothing about mods and making them while you are the uber knowledgeable all knowing mod author? It works for everyone but you wouldn't know that because you refuse to even listen. I even explained a simple test on the FO4Edit comment section that proves that you can rearrange the load order however you want and the game wont crash and the mods worked as intended using both .esp and .esm masters. That was 100% verifiable by you or anyone. The issues for Skyrims load order when the game was released are not the same today.

 

I have been making mods for games since the late 90's, and no I didn't publish many of them and some are no longer on the internet because the host they were on is gone like for my Battlefield 2, 2142, and 1942 mods. None of my mods for Half Life 2 were published and roughly half of my Skyrim mods are published, a tiny amount of my Oblivion mods are, almost none of my FO3 or FNV are. I happen to know very well how Bethesda's load order works because I use that to set my game up exactly the way I want with hundreds of mods of which most I made myself. I may not be a programmer able to make tools like FO4Edit but that doesn't make me stupid and not understand how the load order works.

 

Yes there are trillions of possible mod combinations for Skyrim and no tool is going to be able to setup everyone's load order how they want because it is personal preference now that should dictate the order, dependencies do not matter anymore.

 

Here's a set of test files for FO4: http://www.mediafire.com/download/58zjc8jy56j9wix/10MM.zip Inside are 3 .esp files named 10MMA, 10MMB, and 10MMC. C has B as a master, B has A as a master. The magazine capacity has been doubled with each mod with C at 96. Install those 3 .esp files in a random order and not alphabetical and see how the game treats them. Tell me that's the same as Skyrim when it was first released. Because I just tested it with C at the very top of my load order with B at the very bottom and my magazine capacity for the 10mm pistol was indeed 96. The game doesn't give a rip if the master is lower in the load order, that is fact. Those 3 .esp files prove that is fact.

 

*Edit,

Heres the same 3 .esp files without mastering. all 3 change the 10mm Pistol Magazine capacity and they also change one other weapons magazine capacity. These will conflict and the lowest in the load order is the one that will change the 10mm pistols magazine capacity. http://www.mediafire.com/download/ts7adkwro7x7e35/10MM2.zip Please explain to me how BOSS or LOOT will know exactly which one of those I want at the bottom of my load order. Does it know if I want a 24, 48, or 96 round magazine? How is it possible that BOSS or LOOT will know which I want? Please do explain to the masses how a program can read our minds.

Edited December 8, 2015 by jet4571

[Khormin]

I tested it, and you do seem correct.

IWN (BIS-YABBA-9mm-AT-CCK-GLAS) 1.6.esp (one of my mods) has masters Fallout4.esm, 9mmPistol.esp, Caliber Conversion Kit.esp, AmmoTweaks - Crafting.esp, IWN Core (BIS-YABBA-FM) 1.6.esp, and Bullet Sponge Ballet.esp. IWN Core (etc) also has Bullet Sponge Ballet.esp as a master.

Sorting my load order traditionally (FO4.esm > all other masters > IWN Core > IWN alphabet soup) produces expected results. Rearranging the load order does not cause a crash to desktop as traditionally. Loading all mods (including Fallout4.esm) alphabetically does not cause a crash to desktop as traditionally.

Observed result: Mods simply overrode one another in order of priority, with the amusing effect of potentially reverting changes in mods with the vanilla defaults in Fallout4.esm.

[jet4571]

Exactly what I was saying! But Nooo I am wrong and spreading false information even though I fully tested it out in both Skyrim and FO4 plus providing test esp files that prove I am correct. Load order is now based on preference and not a requirement and until BOSS or LOOT will be able to read minds then they wont be able to set it up for personal preferences of each and every user.

[Kronix420]

There will likely not be any such thing until the official tools are released. Most of the current mods that require a plugin file will then likely become invalid and buggy.

LOOT has been updated (beta/snapshot build) for FO4, and there is an updated masterlist for it. Been using it (snapshot version atm) for a while now.

http://prntscr.com/9bzrqc -- proof/date for reference

 

Download location -- grab latest version (I'm using 0.8.1-38 64bit), run and select Fallout 4 if it doesn't automatically.

Latest Forum Post (as of this reply)

LOOT website -- read the latest readme in the 'docs' section for info on how to run if you're new to BOSS/LOOT or similar load order apps.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Fleckster

[zilav]

Please explain to me how BOSS or LOOT will know exactly which one of those I want at the bottom of my load order. Does it know if I want a 24, 48, or 96 round magazine? How is it possible that BOSS or LOOT will know which I want? Please do explain to the masses how a program can read our minds.

Why not just go and ask yourself in the official support thread like I directed you already?

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1557786-rel-loot-thread-21/

 

Or just check the source code? Or you are one of those type of people who demand answers right here, right now?

Alright, here is your answer. Lets say we have 3 mods that overrides the same vanilla records:

Mod1 overrides records A,B,C

Mod2 overrides A,B

Mod3 overrides A

 

Loot will sort them in this order: Mod1, Mod2, Mod3 to get the maximum effect out of conflicting mods in the game, this way you get changes from all 3 mods even if they conflict with each other. Putting them in any different order will totally neglet one of them or even 2:

Mod1, Mod3, Mod2 - will neglet mod3

Mod3, Mod2, Mod1 - will totally neglet both mod3 and mod2

That's simplified example, but demonstrates the basic principle of LOOT.

 

As for mods not crashing anymore if missing masters in FO4? Maybe, but it is not the main point of LOOT functionality though it does sort mods based on used masters too.

The problem is that you don't have any understanding of how some utility work, but make bold statements about it's usefulness. I don't like such people who think they know everything, but in fact know nothing but still argue and spread their wrong opinion on others.

 

p.s. By the way "You can put Skyrim.esm or Fallout4.esm at the very bottom of your load order and the game will run just fine and all mods will work as intended. That makes LOOT or BOSS irrelevant." The game since Skyrim is hardcoded to load the main master file first no matter where it is in load order or even missing at all (the same for Update.esm in Skyrim), positions of other mods does matter and that what LOOT/BOSS handles. By no means they are "irrelevant".

Edited December 9, 2015 by zilav

[jet4571]

I never said the game wont crash with missing masters, I said if the masters are out of order. That's a complete different ballgame. Skyrim used to crash if you put Skyrim.esm at the bottom even if it was hardcoded to load first regardless.

 

And you didn't explain how it will know which mod I want based on the three .esp's that are not mastered. Does LOOT know what magazine capacity I want? Theres 2 downloads, 1 is just the 10 mm pistol magazine capacity and mastered that proves the game doesn't care about load order when it comes to master files C always wins no matter where it is in the load order. The other download are not mastered and the make the same changes to the 10mm pistol. A changes the magazine cap to 24 and doubles the magazine cap for the assault rifle. B changes the 10mm cap to 48 and changes the minigun magazine cap. C gives the 10mm a mag cap of 96 and changes the mag cap of the hunting rifle. Which one of those mods is the one I prefer for the 10mm magazine cap? Can LOOT or BOSS determine that? If the game doesn't care about load order when it comes to masters and LOOT or BOSS cannot determine preferences then it is not really needed. It is irrelevant, that's my point it cannot determine what I prefer and the game doesn't care what order they are so it is irrelevant to me. You can love the program and swear by it, I don't really care if you do, for me it is useless.

[Kesta]

@Zilav : I don't think you can explain complicated things with complicated words and abstract concepts to people having trouble to understand simple things.

 

 

@Jet4571 : What zilav is trying to explain to you is the following :

 

If a mod edit 100 weapons in the game to modify their damage value, and an other one edit 7 of them to give them a unique skin (typical example from Skyrim : Weapons and Armor Fixes and Unique Uniques).

 

They are editing the same "object" (which is called record). This means that without a patch, depending on the load order, for the seven weapons edited by the mod giving them a unique Skin :

 

If the .esp (commonly called a plugin) giving them unique skins is loaded before the one modifying their stats : You will only have damage modifications, the game won't be able to "see" the modifications offered by the one giving them unique skins.

In the other case, you will have the unique skins, but not the damage modifications.

 

What LOOT is trying to do : It is trying to understand that since the one modifying only the 7 weapons will be completely useless if he is loaded before the one modifying their skin, it should be loaded after it. This way, you still see its changes in-game, and still have the damage modifications on the other 93 weapons.

BOSS used to do that only based on a "masterlsit", submitted by users/authors who dested lot of potential conflicts and choose a predefined order. LOOT is now trying to "guess" some of those atop of using the masterlist (with various rate of success depending on cases).

 

 

As for the thing with masters : It's hard to explain without abstract concepts, but basically you have 3 kind of dependencies :

Explicit

Implicit

Erroneous

 

An explicit dependence :

Mod A add a new weapon to the game.

Mod B add a recipe to craft this new weapon.

 

Mod B reference Mod A as a master and must be loaded after mod A, or the game will crast at startup.

 

An implicit dependence :

Mod A change the value of a weapon

Mod B change the weight of a weapon, and have an optional "compatible version" for mod A, which change both its value and its weight (same value than what Mod A did). Compatible version of Mod B doesn't need reference Mod A as a master.

 

Erroneous :

Same as the implicit dependence, except that the compatible version of Mod B do reference Mod A as master.

In this case, which is the one you've put together in your examples you uploaded in your previous post, the game will load fine, and will indeed behave as if the mod with the erroneous dependency was actually loaded after its master, removing the need for load order management.

 

 

What you proved is basically that modders adding erroneous dependencies to their plugins will make load order behave in a non-conventional manner.

 

The main issue is that modding tools such as xEdit or LOOT and others are unable to tell the difference between an explicit dependency and an erroneous one, and thus spit out an error when a plugin with an erroneous dependency is loaded before its master (as it would crash the game if it was an explicit one).

 

 

Edit : proceeding to further testing, seems like explicit misordered masters are indeed not crashing the game on startup anymore. Dpending on the result, I might owe you a severe apology

Edited December 9, 2015 by Kesta

[zilav]

And you didn't explain how it will know which mod I want based on the three .esp's that are not mastered

LOOT doesn't know what you want, you got to wait for artificial intelligence breakthrough in computer science. Please read again what I wrote, the main point of LOOT is "to get the maximum effect out of conflicting mods in the game". If you want specific magazine size, you create your own user rule in LOOT to place some mod after others, and LOOT will respect this when sorting. Please go read LOOT's faq and documentation and ask question in the official LOOT support forum I linked. It seems that you never used LOOT yourself, don't have any idea how it works, what principles and algorythms it uses for sorting mods, but quick on making judgement about it's usefulness and relevancy based on some test mod samples.

 

Anyone can download lets say FO4Edit, make a mod with some random changes, and then say it is irrelevant because created mod crashes the game, and even upload it for others to test. Does it prove anything?

[Khormin]

Jet: "Paris is in France."

Zilav: "Berlin is in Germany."

You are both correct.

 

Yes, the masters are loaded regardless of load order, making LOOT much less necessary than BOSS was in previous games. Now you won't have mods crashing out because the masters are now lower in the load order. I am surprised to find this change, as I stopped playing Skyrim in the period where it was necessary to organise it if you wanted to play et al.

 

But people also use LOOT as Zilav is outlining - for convenience, making sure that the majority of changes are effective. Both points are valid.

 

This argument, reading both of your points, is going to soon boil down to "Is it necessary or is it convenient, in which case may I make the suggestion that "to each user their own"? Or as I put it in one of my first posts here;

I disagree on the topic of necessity, but it's a matter of viewpoint. Thanks however.

[Kesta]

 

Edit : proceeding to further testing, seems like explicit misordered masters are indeed not crashing the game on startup anymore. Dpending on the result, I might owe you a severe apology

 

I do. It indeed seems that masters order, explicits or erroneous, are irrelevant on FO4. I uninstalled other games to make room for all those 4k textures so I can't test since how long have this been going on. Even the formID index in-game match the apparently screwed-up load order.

 

Note that this is far from making LOOT completely irrelevant (still allow you for auto-sorting of the load order based on the masterlist, user-rules, and its guessing-algorithm). But yeah, this is an unexpected result.