Spolier Alert:Finished the main story arc choosing BOS and the Instute,on 2 characters.

[Athanasa]

Still, one could say that while taken as a whole the Institute has acted evil it may also be said that the worst crimes could be traced to only a few individuals whilst the rest of the Institute is more or less neutral (as would be the case with most societies). But that still means that our son in the game has quite a lot of blood on his hands.

 

It was enabled, though. Vergil himself was requesting for the FEV experiments to stop, but was denied by his superiors. People knew what was happening - they have to have known - and they turned a blind eye to it.

[CyrusAmell]

 

Still, one could say that while taken as a whole the Institute has acted evil it may also be said that the worst crimes could be traced to only a few individuals whilst the rest of the Institute is more or less neutral (as would be the case with most societies). But that still means that our son in the game has quite a lot of blood on his hands.

 

It was enabled, though. Vergil himself was requesting for the FEV experiments to stop, but was denied by his superiors. People knew what was happening - they have to have known - and they turned a blind eye to it.

 

 

 

Madison Li did not know and she was the head of an entire department. The only superior mentioned by Virgil is Father, who is the highest ranking individual in the Institute. It is doubtful anyone outside the Bioscience division knew what was going on, save perhaps the staff and resources of the SRB that may have been used to kidnap civilians.

 

The Institute is not a monolith, if anything it is the least unified faction in the game as was seen in the sidequest "A House Divided." We don't know how many people are actually in the Institute, enough for a stable population with the odd newcomer of course but the game could not show so many on screen at once.

 

So it's not like many people could have turned a blind-eye if they could not see it to begin with. There's no news outlet in the Institute, everything is relayed by word of mouth that is not a departmental directive or an invoice on a terminal. There is a lot of things this game does not explain, but it is not necessary for a good story, even one with a few holes in it. We just get enough to get the gist of it.

Edited January 12, 2016 by CyrusAmell

[Moraelin]

All of the experiment notes you find in the FEV research section, prior to whatever incident Virgil did to end it all, end with "Subject terminated." Hence why I wrote "experimented on people with FEV, and killed them afterwards."

 

Really, it's bog standard procedure to terminate the test subjects after most experiments on animals. You don't release the white lab mice into the wild after testing vaccines on them, nor do you release rabbits with fab makeup :wink:

 

So, yeah, that kinda tells you where the lives of the people above ground rank for the institute.

 

Incidentally, it was the standard procedure for human experimentation in WW2 concentration camps. Mengele for example personally terminated the kids he experimented on. I think his record was something like killing two dozen children by poison injection to the heart in one evening.

 

So, yeah, much as I hate the Institute and the Ponyup Buttercup it rode in on, I don't think we have any evidence to add "released Supermutants into the commonwealth" to their list of sins. They "just" murdered those people instead.

 

But really, all people need to know about the Institute's "helpful" intentions towards the world above, is revealed if you don't join immediately when you meet "Father". He promptly states that whoever isn't with them is their enemy, and brands you an enemy of the institute on the spot. And I don't mean "enemy" as in, he'll sulk and ignore you, but the synths will have orders to shoot on sight. So, yeah, now take that to the logical conclusion: every living soul above isn't with the institute, so...

[jcdenton2012]

Moraelin just brought up another good point. Dude's on the ball!! Most of the notes you come across state some matter of forced termination, or otherwise some matter of physical deterioration from experimentation leading to eventual death occurred to all the test subjects. This... is a case of 'bad writing' which has raised my suspicions on more than one occasion. My point being, its a huge plot inconsistency to kill off all the test subjects, and then say on the other hand that living specimens were teleported out of The Institute and that was how we have mutants on the surface. This leads us to two possible conclusions. The first is that FEV can spread from supermutant corpses thus infecting and converting regular humans on the surface (which is scientifically consistent but not Fallout lore consistent), while the second possibility is that this wasn't well thought out.

 

Regarding the second possibility... I have a lingering suspicion from all the plot inconsistencies that this FEV experimentation wasn't initially 'a thing' for the institute, and it was instead something added by Bethesda towards the end of game development in an attempt to make them more evil because as a faction they seemed far too likable without a negative buzzword like FEV. But that's just a theory... a game theory.

[CyrusAmell]

According to the wiki the FEV Experiments were begun 100 years earlier, predating Shaun's arrival. Furthermore, there was no termination of subjects at this stage - they would be turned into Super Mutants, tagged then released back into the Commonwealth. It was only two years after the experiments began in 2178 that Diamond City was attacked by a horde of Super Mutants in 2180.

 

So 100 years of FEV experimentation would certainly seem to be a likely source of so many mutants. It is frankly horrible and I don't think Bethesda should have tacked this on, but whatever. If you become the director of the Institute you have a lot to clean up (note the massive understatement).

Edited January 12, 2016 by CyrusAmell

[Moraelin]

Not sure it's Beth's fault, though. Is there anything IN THE GAME that says the Boston Supermutants come from the institute? There's certainly nothing to suggest it on the Institute terminals, unless I've missed something,

 

So maybe the only "bad writing" on this topic is on the part of one Wiki author who let their imagination run wild instead of checking whether the facts support their theory. The thing about a Wiki is that anybody can edit it. Some check their facts more careful than others, and a game wiki doesn't have the same sheer number of people as Wikipedia to set things right. So...

 

Don't get me wrong, there certainly is... less than optimal writing in other places. I'm not saying Beth is perfect. But I really don't remember seeing that information on Institute terminals.

 

And really, here's what's on ALL terminals in the institute, so you don't have to go through them in the game: http://fallout.gamepedia.com/The_Institute_terminals

 

If you find anything to support the idea of teleporting Supermutants (other than Virgil) on the surface, you tell me...

[CyrusAmell]

According to the FEV Research notes under Doctor Elliot, the FEV testing program was begun under Doctor Frederick in 2178 and, of course, the Super Mutant attack on Diamond City was in 2180.

 

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/FEV_research_notes

 

So it seems the only logical deduction, and correlates with research notes on the Prydwen which state that these Super Mutants are an entirely new strain from those in the Capital Wasteland.

 

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/The_Prydwen_terminal_entries#.5BEntry_0769-CM22.5D

 

So there is either a nearby staging site where these mutants are coming from that is off the map, or they are the result of 100 years of FEV experimentation from the Institute. Super Mutants can live a very long time, so their numbers would only dwindle from battle - which is something they usually win (hence the Super part). There is also evidence that the Institute was likely more ruthless in the past than it is now. When Shaun was kidnapped in the beginning of the game, the scientists accompanying Kellog intentionally left all other Vault Dwellers to die in their cryo-tubes whilst only the Sole Survivor was kept alive as possible backup (during the quest "Dangerous Minds"). So we know the Institute has been acting like complete asshats for quite some time.

 

Otherwise it is mostly Bethesda's fault for creating such an inconsistency. Perhaps we can find confirmation in a official game guide that this is the given story, as the publishers would have asked something along this line for flavor text.

 

I am not fond of this explanation. Killing people and replacing them with synths for the sake of spying or minor experiments is one big thing, but abducting innumerable people to turn into bloodthirsty mutants and releasing them back into Commonwealth is borderline genocide of the cackling mustache twirling variety.

Edited January 12, 2016 by CyrusAmell

[Moraelin]

I HAVE read Dr Elliot's notes, but they just don't seem to point me in that direction.

 

In fact, the whole FEV thing seems to have been started as a way to genetically engineer the eventual Gen 3 synths. It makes scientific sense too, as using retroviruses for horizontal gene transfer in genetic engineering is the default modus operandi.

 

At any rate, they only seem to have found 2 stable strains by 2224, which is way too late for the 2180 attack. In fact, it seems very unlikely that in 2 years or less from program approval they'd have hordes ready.

 

And in the 2224 notes, Dr Elliot is complaining that they can't get any further, because all DNA is contaminated. And he's going to propose a solution for that.

 

And in 2227, they abduct Shaun as a source of non-irradiated DNA. Which kinda tells you right there what the good doctor proposed as a solution to the irradiated DNA problem. Hint: it wasn't releasing the mutants into the wild.

 

Don't get me wrong. Maybe the Institute did release mutants. Or maybe they don't. But we don't really have any evidence at all for it.

 

All that the wikis have are some baseless fanboy speculations based on such stuff as why the mutants look different from the FO3 ones. Well, duh, and the Atronachs in Skyrim don't quite look like those in Morrowind, but nobody takes that as evidence that there's another set of Daedra lords. That's what you get when game engines evolve and you have different people doing the 3D modelling.

 

But anyway, again, I don't find anything in the notes to even suggest that they released any mutants. We do have evidence that the program started in 2178, but that's just about the only supported assertion from that Wiki.

 

And again, I have no problem with admitting that Beth sometimes writes... less than perfectly. Heck, even in the FEV program, it sounds like Virgil has no clue what he should be testing, which makes no sense for a scientist. Science is about verifying a hypothesis, and you can't do that while not even knowing what hypothesis you're supposed to test. That's bad writing.

 

Not explaining to the average gamers that viruses are used in genetic engineering, ditto, bad writing that.

 

But this? I have no urge to blame Bethesda for some contradiction that exists not inside the game, but between the game and some fanboy's confabulations. The game is canon, fanboy delusions are not. If the two conflict, then the canon wins. Every time. End of contradiction right there.

[CyrusAmell]

And in the 2224 notes, Dr Elliot is complaining that they can't get any further, because all DNA is contaminated. And he's going to propose a solution for that.

 

 

They left that last part to, well, our imagination. Dr. Elliot was complaining about the subjects' DNA being too contaminated, so they needed subjects that were less contaminated. We notice in the holding cells with dead Super Mutants that some have children toys scattered about the cell. So what if instead of adult wastelanders, they decided to use children who had a better chance of not being so contaminated? *Sigh* now I just want to blow that place up a second time.

 

As for everything else, as I said, perhaps there is confirmation in the official game guides sold in bookstores for Fallout 4. While it is not exactly Bethesda's word, it's as close to a statement as we will get. For every faction in the game, and enemy type, there is a small paragraph that gives them some flavor. But that is the best I can think of until I go to Barnes&Nobles in the future and pick through it.

Edited January 12, 2016 by CyrusAmell

[Moraelin]

It could very well be that they tried other children first. I mean, it's 3 years between that proposal and when they find a vault with a pre-war baby. Obviously Dr Elliot's proposal had to be something more feasible than "find a cryo-vault", when they didn't yet know of one. I mean, if they knew of Vault 111 in 2224, it wouldn't take them 3 years to get it and take the baby, would it?

 

So, anyway, yes, experimenting on children seems very plausible. I have no problem with that.

 

All I was saying is that I don't see evidence that they released mutants into the wild. And it can't be what Dr Elliot proposed in 2224, since releasing them into an irradiated wasteland obviously wouldn't help make the DNA less irradiated.

 

But basically, yeah, obviously we can agree that they're monsters.