3 round burst

[movalmedic]

I'm wondering if anyone has made a mod that makes automatic weapons shoot in 3 round bursts. I really want to us commando and auto weapons but wwhen you're getting swarmed by a pack of ghouls you can burn through up to 200 rounds in seconds.

[robtest]

I put auto on a revolver... it shoots 6 shots (pauses a sec where the reload used to be) and then continues to fire...

 

so yeah... theoretically it should be possible..

[hunterh98]

Here's how to do it without complicated modding processes.

 

Click and hold the fire button.

 

Listen for three shots.

Stop holding the fire button.

 

Repeat~

[Verz]

Burst fire modes are developed in real life because most of weapons have rates of fire that let them empty magazines in literally seconds - this isn't needed in games where weapons have rates of fire like 400 rounds per minute, really.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Verz

[hunterh98]

Burst fire modes are developed in real life because most of weapons have rates of fire that let them empty magazines in literally seconds - this isn't needed in games where weapons have rates of fire like 400 rounds per minute, really.

I thought it was because you really don't need more than 3 accurate shots to kill someone.

[tomomi1922]

 

Burst fire modes are developed in real life because most of weapons have rates of fire that let them empty magazines in literally seconds - this isn't needed in games where weapons have rates of fire like 400 rounds per minute, really.

I thought it was because you really don't need more than 3 accurate shots to kill someone.

 

 

It's not that. Weapons are all about control vs power. If you talk about killing, all you need is 1 well placed shot. But the reason for automatic weapon is burst and control for those moments when you need to rapid fire (like in a close combat situation, when ghouls swamp you). Even in game like Ghost Recon where it is more of a military simulation than a game (you probably die in 1 hit, or worse, limping your way the entire mission). I would value automatic weapons when I have to get close to an enemy, turn a blind corner, etc... where my first shot will likely miss, I want to shoot again to kill someone before he kills me (and you don't count on the NPC to miss). In earlier Rainbow Six games, NPC can headshot you with a pistol: I was at a safe distance, shot down 1 tango with a long range sniper rifle, and within that split second to switch my sight to the next tango 3 feet away, he pulled out his M9 and headshot my character.

 

The 3 round burst is a good limiting factor for automatic weapon because, beside the fact that you can empty the whole magazine in seconds, your accuracy goes to almost zero. Which means you just spray bullets and waste them for nothing (or hitting your unintended targets) and get into a reload situation where you have no way to defend yourself. If you ever fire an automatic weapon in real life, the multiple recoil is terrible, like you try to contain a mad dog and hold him steady. 3 shot burst is way more controllable as you can regain control the weapon between shots. This is also why they say minigun is not usable in real life due to the multiple recoils that no human is able to control unless mounted.

 

Not to mention your barrel will heat up and weapon jam is likely. For lower end weapons (like those home modified AK47 made by those middle east operatives living in caves with low knowledge of gunsmith), the barrel may blow up in the face.

Edited January 16, 2016 by tomomi1922

[yerude]

There are two versions for Bursts in real life.

One is like Verz said. Games are realy unrealistic. I dont even know a single game where this is done correctly. Maybe there are some, but neither in arma nor in ghost recon this is made very well.

In reality there are several weapons you can empty a 30 round magazin in a second.

For example even slower weapons. With a fire rate of 1200rps, which is not that special anymore, you will shoot 20 shots in a second. How do you want to do a 3 burst with it? And thats not even the fastest gun possible. It is more "modern standart"

Because 1200 rps is not practical for assault rifles (because their caliber has stronger recoil), assault rifles often have slower rate of fire. But even an assault gun with 800 rps shoot 13 bullets in one second.

There are some few assault rifles (very old ones) like the AK with something like 600 bullets per minute, with it it would be possible to do 3 round bursts manually.

The g36 has 1200 rounds per minute (in theory) and there are alot even faster ones.

 

Reasons why burst makes sense in real life

- you can shoot bursts semi automatic, which is some kind of a better controllable rate of fire

- less heat (because most conflicts are in high temperatured countrys, this is important)

- no waste of bullets

- lesser recoil

- in most cases the bullets will be shoot very frequently so the intention is a very little upward recoil. At high distance you aim for the body, and even if you aimed a little bit to low, you will probably hit body, neck and head. So hitting targets is alot more comfortable.

- more accurate than a full burst of course. (Fan already said)

 

So actually the question should be, why dont have all weapons burst mode instead why do some have it.

[tomomi1922]

Yerude, much better explanation than mine. Nice and neatly sum it all up. I remember even the MP5 (low caliber compact weapon) has recoil that, if you keep shooting, you will find yourself pointing your rifle higher up due to upward recoil. So there is really no point to full burst. It serves no purpose other than wasting bullets and require reload. You brought up a point that is very important: manual burst is actually harder to do with modern rifles.

In US standard military training (aka Bootcamp) at no point they encourage or condone even burst mode. Everything is 1 shot at a time. Not until you get into assault courses (military police, infantry, urban warfare training) where they will let you even touch that burst mode. And even so, they expect you to exercise restraint. Because they know there is nothing good coming out of burst mode hip firing. Even the M249 US military standard issue light machine gun, often acts as cover fire to scare people, they recommend shooting in burst than full auto.

One time I saw a "run away" M249, the poor operator had to use all his muscles to keep the rifle pointing down range before it decided to fly off and hit someone on the side. It all happened in a matter of less than a minute, emptying an entire magazine (some 100-200 rounds on a belt fed magazine). To add ontop of the topic, M249 operator usually has an A-gunner (assistant gunner) who follows him around with extra barrel, in case the barrel heats up. And the story where US troops in VN war peed on the barrel to cool it down is true.

Edited January 16, 2016 by tomomi1922

[yerude]

I read an article about 5.6mm ammo which became nato standart. There was also described that they used this ammo because of its lesser weight, almost half weight.

So modern guns try to componsate the lesser manstopping with faster flying bullets and higher fire rates. In close combat like urban warfare this is workable well, but on open fields you have a lesser range.

Because the ammo weight is halved, you are able to use bigger magazines and can carry more with you. I think if you take this in consideration, high fire rate can still be helpful in hasty situations.

I am not a gun expert but i think it is comparable with a paintgun match. There you waste a lot of paintingbullets to supress the other team while a teammate can try to go to the Flag/Buzzer.

Of course in ware there are flags or buzzers you need to push and it is not sports, but if you supress your enemy your teammates are able to flank them. This could have more tactical reasons why machineguns with high fire rates and alot ammo will be used very often. I dont think you need an additional operator for 5.6 machineguns even if you have 100 or even 200 round magazines. 100 5.6 ammobox only weights ~1.3 kg. Of course it is heavy if you carry it around the whole day. But you wont need any help for using it. If you are using an ammo belt another person will be of great help. He can take care your weapon wont jamm while you could concentrate on aiming and firing. Especially for the m249 i think this realy makes sense. But for the assault machine gun hybrids (in most cases assault guns with a different barrel and bigger magazines) you wont need it. I am glad i am not a soldier, i would have problems to decide what is best :laugh:

 

But i think this is difficult to implement in fallout.

- AI can be set that your enemys will flank you(there is a switch of flanking and dueling), but there is no realy good working teamwork ai. Teamwork settings only have some kind if radius which indicates if the enmeys will try to help each other. Raiders have less teamwork so you can shoot them one by one.

- It wouldnt fit in the fallout atmosphere where most people are some kind of selfish and selflearning gun rookies. In fallout there not many people who would be something like professional army or spec ops etc. Even the gunners are only some kind of a gang.

- by default enemys have unlimited ammo. Well i dont know how diffcult it is to change, but if you have some mod or know how to change this, i would be interrested in it aswell.

[tomomi1922]

The assistant gunner is US military tactic. If you are a US soldier carrying M249, you don't get to say no to your partner. For suppressing fire, you do not need full auto either. Even burst of 3 rounds can do just fine. M249 doesn't need to change magazine often (although it is designed to also take M16 magazine, if I remember correctly). You sorta know the enemy position, and just pour some consistent rounds toward them would scare them enough to keep their heads down. That is how you are supposed to cover. On the receiving ends, you will hear bullets zipping by and hitting stuff near you, it's scary. You know they are not accurate but since it's your life on the line you don't just simply stick your head out and ignore the cover fire. Besides, you never know if there is another guy who trains his sight on you and will snipe you (even with typical M16) the moment you pop out. If you are a soldier, then it's simple. They tell you what you get, not much decision on your end. Everyone gets an M16 (now replaced by M4). Specially trained gunners will be certified for M249 (about 1-2 weeks of training, nothing special really). And certain rank or roles qualify you for M9 pistol. That's it. I don't think there is another weapon unless you get into special forces.

5.56mm will do just fine in modern day battlefield (year 2016). M16 rounds can penetrate even standard bullet proof vest at close range. And even it doesn't, it gives you a HUGE punch so painful that you may even pass out. The rival AK 47 has higher caliber, and dubbed to be unstoppable since it can endure almost ANY environment: dropped in water, filled with mud, sand, dirt .... it will fire just fine, completely reliable. M16 and M249 on the other hand .... will jam like crazy with even moderate dirt. Ak47 will pack a heavier punch at close range. Earlier in Iraq war, AK47 bullets cut through US humvees and trucks like butter, until they brought in APC (Armored Personnel Carrier). The AK47 is designed for reliability with sacrifice in accuracy and range. Like you mentioned earlier, heavy bullets will fly slower and fall out earlier. The barrel is not as tight fit, so you can't easily achieve high accuracy at longer distance, making it a very lousy tactical sniping weapon. There were famous tactical snipers in history who could calculate the fall off range and can snipe with AK47 far beyond recommended range. But that is extremely rare and definitely not part of standard training. M16, if you are moderately good, can even snipe people at 1000 yards away without any scope.

Back to FO4, I don't even think there is team work in AI. All of them have the same aggro system that once they hear a shot they will come at you. I was chased for miles by a Legendary Mutant wielding minigun once. When I say no team work, I mean they don't know how to wait to flank me effectively. Like 1 guy would wait on my side, while the other draws my attention. And they would attack at the same time and I wouldn't even notice I am getting hit from behind. That's just dumb AI. I don't know if BoS is any smarter since I haven't really fought them enough.

Edited January 17, 2016 by tomomi1922