German Nazi invasion

[NDDragor]

As long as your work isnt promoting anything I dont see any problems. I mean its a part of our worlds history, it cant be undone even if some people are trying to erase it. I lived in Germany for some years and I know that this is a really heavy topic for them, but I can clearly recall that they had several shows or books that criticized the Nazis in a funny way, so why dont let them be the bad guys like they were in reality in a game or a mod? But maybe you shouldn't have put the "German" in front of the Title.

[Kastergir]

 

Nazipast is NOT as easily dealt with as you want to make belive it to be, especially for Germans . All the blame has NOT being magically erased ( hard to believe I know, but I can tell you, being german and travelling WILL bring you comments towards the NAZI past pretty fast/quick almost everywhere.... ) . The fact that you seem to think Nazi stuff having made it into Popculture and being classy is perfectly acceptable does not make it better actually .NAZI Ideology is NOT dead, neither in Germany nor quite a lot other European countries, in fact the extreme rightwingers gain momentum massively for years already again .

 

But that aside - just had to add this since I prefectly well KNOW what I am talking about form personal experience, and just had to correct your notions... - the bigger Problem actually is: The Svastika NaziStyle, the Uniforms being identical to historical Nazi Uniforms and quite some other Stuff is/are actually forbidden in Germany - with many Items, even a depiction of them already is . To be precise, people can get into trouble for just having a picture of the Nazi Svastika on their PC ( which is kindof sad when it comes to that Symbol, since the Idiots basically desecrated a millenia old holy symbol XD .) .

 

Id advise you to consider that before you go ahead and create content including stuff like that and publish it .

 

Svastika I am aware is of Buddhism and Hinduism. My family follows Buddhism even though I am really more of a non believer. Hitler borrowed it from Tibetan Buddhism I believe, after befriending the Dalai Lama. Thanks to bring to my attention about how modern German still share some affiliations with past history. It is worthy to note for my personal knowledge.

 

I understand that such Nazi related stuff are against the law in Germany, if I read you correctly. How do you guys deal with documentaries or movies? They need special permits to premiere? (Honest question). Movie like Inglorious Basterds and Valkyrie, are they banned in Germany? I heard people complained about historical accuracy, but I still love that movie a lot even solely for all the details. One of the (more symbolic than historical) movie I love is "The boy in Pajamas". That being said, what I try to do here is only to reuse existing content from other modders, and my content is more tamed and straight forward than Valkyrie (portraying a Nazi officer as good guy, WTH?) and in the same direction as Wolfenstein. I don't understand why people think this has never done before and will carry heavy consequences (that you urge me to reconsider) like this is the very first time I tell some truth about German that is totally unheard of before?

 

One of the more daring move on Bethesda is portraying Chinese as the bad guy in FO3, responsible for invading Alaska, and partly responsible for starting this Great War. But hey, this is fiction. From the get go this is presented as alternate history, and doesn't seem to be specially racist against Chinese, but just human nature. Chinese long history had a great number of tyrants, traitors, and all sort of bloodthirsty warlords, too. Just put the wrong guy in power and you will see. I don't see anyone boycotting Bethesda for portraying Chinese this way, why do people have problem with me just adding some content to the already heavily demonized past and long dead regime?

 

Of course if such content breaks the law in your region, then by no mean I encourage you to break the law and get in trouble. But bottom line is, I am not trying to glorify Nazi, instead, I am making them antagonists to be shot at by the player.

 

 

It is difficult for me to reply to your post in an appropriate way, for one this is because you put out statements and assumptions every other half sentence which would need to be commented on . Another reason is that your mindset regarding this subject is so totally different from mine, it would likely lead to argument . And that I want to prevent .So I am going to stick to answering some factual question of yours, as well as replying in a kindof generalized way to most of the rest of what you wrote regarding Germany/Nazi past .

 

The Nazi Past of Germany can never be erased, or forgotten . It is at times not really easy to live with that knowledge - be it from a purely personal standpoint, or when pondering the past and ongoing political ramifications and implications . What gets old with time is the thing you want to do - create something where the Nazis/which equals Germans - are the template for badguys, anatgonists, etc . Serious, I mean I am NOT kidding - it gets old.

 

Those MODs you see here on the Nexus and want to build up upon - I would not be amazed if one or the other was made by a German modern Nazi . I admit I have not checked, but as I said - I would not be amazed at all .

 

Regarding the legal situation: german legal apparatus does distincly differentiate between movies/documentaries etc., and games/other media when applying the relevant §. It is ofc complicated. If you are REALLY interested in the matter, here is a wikipedia Link citing the governing german law:

 

StGB §86a . This is kindof essential knowledge . From there on, you can expand towards educating yourself about how the legal apparatus justifies movies/documentary being treated differently than lets say computergames . But I do not want to get too far into that .

 

Here are a few of the reasons why I asked you to reconsider:

 

• It gets old using the Nazis/Germans as bad guys/antagonists .
• As mentioned before, dealing with the past is not at all easy for many people in regards to NaziGermany .
• I for one am personally really tired of having to deal with this past on a day to day basis . "Day to day ?" you ask yourself in wonder, so let me tell you that a LOT of the civil and other laws still in effect in Germany are exactly the same as they were during the Nazi regime . Many of those have actually been established by the Nazis . A lot of the "wealth" in germany is directly owed to Nazi past . You have no idea HOW MUCH has been taken from all those people being deported, killed in camps etc. I dont know the exact specifics either, but I have a general Idea. And I grew up in a 8k people "village" where the handfull of richest families were then and still are the richest cos their ancestors were Nazi puppets 30 years before I was born . Past gone and all, NOBODY came by and took the Land and other Stuff back from these people, and NOONE questioned or questions their social and political power in that area, which is - to this day! - owed to the German Nazi Past.... . SO when I say I have to deal with that past day by day, I mean it: I am open eyed and intelligent enough to see the still ongoing effects of that "long dead" regime in todays Germany. Which often frightens me tbh .
• It pisses me off on a personal level that one of my alltime favourite Games - Fallout4 - has obviously already been infested by Nazi mods, be it the SS Uniform mods, or the BoS mod, or whatever . Serious, as simple as that - it just pisses me off . Whether someone wants to use that stuff for glorifiying the Nazis, or for making them "antagonists" does not really much matter to me - already pisses me off enough that it is at all present .
• Last but not least - controversy . As you already have on your hand even without having done/published anything .

I am sorry if I may come across incoherent . The thoughts as well as emotions racing through my mind when it comes to that subject in general are enormous, and so much would have to be said when people start and try to take the German Nazi past lightly, or try to act as if it would not touch exactly those thoughts and emotions in an enormous amount of people - still .

 

As I said a few times by now: it is not really past, it is not really long forgotten . Just consider whether you really want to contribute keeping it alive in the way you plan to do is all I ask.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Kastergir

[Astral Nexus]

 

 

I stated mildly so I did not want to get into a political debate over this.

 

Says they don't want to get into a political debate.... then immediately begins to talk about Nazi Germany.

 

http://www.geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/picard-facepalm-face-palm-590x330.jpg

Edited January 17, 2016 by Astral Nexus

[Kastergir]

You would have saved me a LOT of typing had you posted that roughly 30 mins earlier . All that would've been left for me to do would have been

 

+1.

 

Cos -> Yeah ikr . Spot on .

Edited January 17, 2016 by Kastergir

[tomomi1922]

 

 

 

I stated mildly so I did not want to get into a political debate over this.

 

Says they don't want to get into a political debate.... then immediately begins to talk about Nazi Germany.

 

 

I was being nice to people discussing a more sensible perspective. But I guess people these days can never be pleased ... anti Nazi = get MAD. Pro Nazi = GET MAD. Not even discussing Nazi = also get MAD. Relax!!

 

I am sorry that people get pissed off because the world doesn't turn out exactly the way they like. If you don't like to see anything Nazi related, don't play games like Wolfenstein. And if you don't like modded Nazi content, don't download it. But you can't simply ask everyone else to share your exact mindset, and if they don't, you bully them into submission. That is just sad. I am not force feeding you anything you don't want to see, why come here forcefeeding me your ideology? I already explained I too share similar sentiments about the past in regard of myself as Japanese and dealing with people accusing "Japanese war crime" as a whole, not simply "Nazi Japanese". I have said enough. But I am a historian at heart. I am not going to be bullied into ignoring history and pretend it never happened, so someone can feel less guilty (where they shouldn't feel guilty at the first place).

 

Now I would like to discuss how best to implement this content in FO4. Think of it as another version of Wolfenstein. I have second thoughts about raiders because they have too many armors to replace. I may consider Gunners. But their population is rather small to be prevalent. Without GECK, there won't be any scripted quests. So all there is I can do is pure encounters.

 

Don't like to implement BoS as Nazi simply because they have their own content, story, quests that have zero relation to anything Nazi. Thus, asking players to "use their imagination" based on some mere outfit retexture is a bit hard. And I am wanting people's input to see if there is anything I have yet to consider.

________________________

 

If anyone else decide to bully me into pretend Hitler regime never existed, I suggest you start with Wikipedia first, rewrite all their WW2 history pages. You guys are actually the same as those Japanese Right wingers changing history books in Japan as if all they ever did in WW2 was humanitarian missions. Don't try to convince me otherwise.

[yzerman19]

Nazis are such an old-school enemy from yesteryear...the current enemy, if you did not know, is muslim terrorists.

[Gilibran]

Apart from it being to obvious to use nazi's as already stated above. If you want to do this do not involve Germany, yes it was the birth ground of the nazi's, but some very big industrial not German men supported Hitler. Henry Ford for instance, it's much more likely that would be the grounds for any Nazi pressence in FO 4.

 

After the bombs fell they saw opportunity to establish a fascist regime. Even today there are a lot of right wing extremist groups in the US trying to live of the grid. Their chances of surviving a nucleair holocaust aimed at densely populated areas are actually pretty high. They would form the base for Nazi pressence, there are a lot of post apocalyptic stories where fascists are among the more powerfull players. Enclave is basically a fascist organization, there is enough story ground to have nazi pressence around Boston have nothing to do with actual Germans and some kind off invasion or nazi remnants.

 

That said, i'm from Europe, grandfather was in the resistance as was my grandma, yes there were grudges after the war, and some could never forget and forgive for very good reasons. However the generation that actually lived through the war, fought and survived are much more forgiving then later generations growing up in the 50-60's. 70's generation started to change perhaps because their grandfathers and grandmothers finally started to talk about the war to their grandchildren, something they never did to their kids.

 

My grandfather told me about the horrors they heard about, how they were hunted down for forced labour and had to go underground. But he also told me there were Germans and Nazi's. Germans being those that were just like him, young men forced to do things they actually did not want to do but had to because if not, well the SS would pay his family back home a visit. Germany litterally lived in terror, neighbours turning in their neighbours so the SS would not come looking for their son to be forced into the army. That's the reality and alot of men also simply joined the army for adventure or simply to protect them, though it was the nazi's fault, "enemies" were coming for Germany intent on destruction, you fight for family and home.

 

In those days you were lucky if you ever travelled more then a hundred miles from home, they did'nt join the nazi's they joined brotherhood and adventure. Only a small part were true fanatic believer nazi's and psychopaths.

 

Also, information was none existent, you had state controlled newspapers and radio, virtually no way to get other information from other sources. Something easily overlooked today where we litterally have the entire world just 2 mouseclicks away, people simplyto easilly assume back then they had the same acces to information.

 

So, try to be original, no problem having something nazi inspired, Enclave obviously is and BOS also has fascist traits. Make it yours and not just simply copy paste.

[JuJooGuppy]

Bringing up Nazi Germany is sure to set off a chain of various responses, all equally valid, and that's why there is always argument and conflict over it.

You have to consider it like this:

For a non-German American citizen, not of Jewish heritage etc, WW2 and Nazi Germany is a history lesson, a dark one to be learned from but one that doesn't have a personal effect on us (I fall into this category) in the same way it does for others, thus we can view Nazi lore a little more pragmatically and not find it offensive, rude or otherwise. (This isn't just for Americans, plenty fall into this category, just an example.) This allows someone like me to view the idea of a Nazi-invasion mod and go, "Hey, that could be fun / work". This isn't necessarily a wrong view.

But now, for a German citizen, whom may or may not have had a direct effect from this event, its completely different. Many outside people are quick to associate all Germans with Nazism, which is wrong and rude, but takes place regardless and leads to unfair treatment, scorn, seclusion etc. Further, many Germans I believe feel a great deal of sorrow and regret over these events having taken place, because of their countries obviously heavy involvement, whether or not they as an individual had anything to do with it. So to say that Nazism (Especially worded as "German Nazi Invasion") is a tough subject for the people coming from and around Germany or of German heritage is an understatement.

Then you also have people of the Jewish faith that lost so many loved ones, relatives, etc, and its easy to see why anyone in that category or similar categories would find the entire subject in terrible taste, and become bothered at seeing it promoted in almost a "positive" fashion.


These are obviously some very general ideas / concepts here and not absolutes, I hope no one takes offense. Just trying to point out various views.

[tomomi1922]

Thanks GIlibran, you gave me some more inspirations.

Quick history look back: My grandfathers too were in some sort of activist/resistance/anti-imperialist underground movements back then in Japan. They were vague in details, but they opposed war (same as how Americans protested against VN war) and also opposed the "New Imperial Army Movement" that aimed to "reform Japan, undermine sluggish tradition, build a new great Japan" that led Japan to become a power player in WW2. They drafted young men for the army with the "greatest honor to serve your country and emperor" excuse, even confiscated almost all metal house ware to build war machines. Sometimes 1 entire village had ....2 knives. What the world also did not know was they openly "recruit" women to be military prostitute as well. While not simply just dragging them off the street at gun point, their methods would constitute something of extreme sexual harassment in today's standard.

About your stories, the German and Allies employ this "total war" strategy (that was highly denounced by people) that wipes out the concept of civilian. "You are either with us or against us". This is why so many deaths happened. On another interesting note: only very recently I read that ... the very last platoon who defended Hitler bunker consisted mainly of .... Frenchmen.

It's cool to exchange stories. But I really want to keep others from chiming in and using these content for political debates.

____________________________

You brought up a good point. War time, or post war time, is great for anarchy. Many see death and destruction. A few see opportunities as short cuts to power. Even in US military, a few psycho ones were hoping for all out war to break out: they reason that if their own ranks die out fast, promotion will come handy. From enlisted to general.... in WW2, a typical veteran story goes: started out as Corporal, and became platoon Sergeant 2 week later because he was killed. 2 years later was transferred to another unit with the rank 1st Lieutenant.

 

But what I don't agree is, they do not always have to dig out the exact copy of an existing or historic regime to mimic after, down to the level of emblem, insignia (logo), uniform, and titles. Unless there is a huge love for Hitler among the recruit, which is unlikely. Most organization always starts out appearing they are good doers, saviors for the people (as a way to garner support). Minutemen is a great example of this. They were practically wiped out. And the only guy left in uniform hands a stranger the key position as gratitude. He knows nothing about this man/woman. Preston will become the right hand man, yes. But one day he will stomp in the General's office complaining about all these black ops he was not told about and lecturing the General about Minutemen's values, only to be assassinated later as Preston outlives his usefulness when Minutemen becomes exactly what the General wants.

Thus, if they still wear Nazi uniform, they must have been the same regime or have strong tie to the same regime. I keep using Iron Sky as reference., but after years of fleeing to the Moon, they kept on the brainwashing young generation (with Hitler's world vision in the 10 minute cut of Great Dictator) while keeping ever soldier in line because it has been working well for them along the way, why change? But the leader himself is no worshiper of Hitler, just worshiping himself and his way to power. And the reason they would have support in FO4, is the existence of many Ring wingers as you said, who can see opportunity to be apart of something they can agree with (albeit not agreeing with everything). TO them, it may have been better than siding with the BoS, NCR, Minutemen, or Railroad (should I even mention them?) I don't think Institute and Enclave are open for recruitment.
____________________________

Technical side, My retexturing of raiders armors have a few hiccups:

- Headgears turn face invisible. I need to figure out how to input the "faceBones.nif".

- Raiders don't seem to follow uniform code. They mix match uniform and it looks ridiculous. I may think about making them wear a "full set" from head to toe on certain uniform that the hat has to go with the exact outfit. Or else, they just look like a bunch of bandits (aka Raiders) who uncover a cache of Nazi uniform and have no idea to wear correctly.

- Still working on replacing Raider template faces (so they can have clean faces and wear no mohawk)

- And something gotta be done with those pipe weapons. No idea how, maybe this requires GECK to completely wipe pipe weapons out and let them use something better.

- No plan to do anything about the voice.

 

I do work in video production as my side job. I think I can get some professional voice acting done. But to match the exact voice effect in game (so it won't break immersion) and get good voice acting, I will have to hire actors and utilize the sound room. Voice actors don't come cheap. Well, I shouldn't have said that. Many talented actors are willing to work for very low pay (or even no pay) just to gain portfolio. But to say 10 lines doesn't just take 10 minutes. It probably take 5+ hours to get it right. And if the final quality doesn't sound right, I have to call them back for another recording session. So unless this mod gets a great turn out that warrants me to spend money to get some great voice acting in (German speaking voices with the right context), I wouldn't bother.

Besides, I haven't narrowed down a back story. This is important for the voices to comment about their current state, like you would hear when you sneak up on them.

Edited January 18, 2016 by tomomi1922

[tomomi1922]

Bringing up Nazi Germany is sure to set off a chain of various responses, all equally valid, and that's why there is always argument and conflict over it.

 

You have to consider it like this:

 

For a non-German American citizen, not of Jewish heritage etc, WW2 and Nazi Germany is a history lesson, a dark one to be learned from but one that doesn't have a personal effect on us (I fall into this category) in the same way it does for others, thus we can view Nazi lore a little more pragmatically and not find it offensive, rude or otherwise. (This isn't just for Americans, plenty fall into this category, just an example.) This allows someone like me to view the idea of a Nazi-invasion mod and go, "Hey, that could be fun / work". This isn't necessarily a wrong view.

 

But now, for a German citizen, whom may or may not have had a direct effect from this event, its completely different. Many outside people are quick to associate all Germans with Nazism, which is wrong and rude, but takes place regardless and leads to unfair treatment, scorn, seclusion etc. Further, many Germans I believe feel a great deal of sorrow and regret over these events having taken place, because of their countries obviously heavy involvement, whether or not they as an individual had anything to do with it. So to say that Nazism (Especially worded as "German Nazi Invasion") is a tough subject for the people coming from and around Germany or of German heritage is an understatement.

 

Then you also have people of the Jewish faith that lost so many loved ones, relatives, etc, and its easy to see why anyone in that category or similar categories would find the entire subject in terrible taste, and become bothered at seeing it promoted in almost a "positive" fashion.

 

These are obviously some very general ideas / concepts here and not absolutes, I hope no one takes offense. Just trying to point out various views.

 

Actually, they are the ones that make this sound like a "positive fashion". Most people do not know how to read. They skimp through the words, pick out a few, form their own opinions instantly on those selective words. I can say "I would hate to see you doing so badly so I want to help you" and a lot of people end up reading "I... hate ... you .... so badly ..." Selective reading, selective hearing ... and people do this without even knowing.

 

My intention is no more positive or negative than the portrayal of the German Nazi regime than what you already see in popular media. In fact, I worry I might have come off too much of Nazi haters for painting them as targets to shoot at, like in Wolfenstein or Call of Duty. So for those who have imitate grudges against the Nazi, they should see that I am a lot more on their side than against them. But to properly portraying Nazi for you to shoot at, I can't simply spend 5 minutes to do all the texture job. It will be a joke. Even just attempting to replace all Raider underarmor already took me 8+ hours. It's a whole lot of tedious work. Each armor item has about 10-15+ files scattered in Meshes, Textures, and Materials folders that I have to make sure they have the right path. Who can do all these in 5 minutes?

 

And no, this mod doesn't intend to give anyone a history lesson. Neither does Fallout 4.