Keeping it "real"

[Striker879]

On the subject of infrastructure I'd like to lead with a question ... How much realism will the game support?

 

By support I'd further define that into game engine and land area. The first may help prioritize the usage of the later. In the vanilla game the most basic of needs (food) is woefully provided for. The few farms could not possibly provide the amount or variety of food that magically appears in vendor inventories. If more land area was devoted to farms we'd lose wilderness area (a required source of housing material and fuel for the many fires and fireplaces). Even if those inequities are resolved what is the basis of Cyrodill's economy (if they import that which they can't produce themselves what do they have to export to maintain trade balance)? Is their major 'export' the tax revenues extracted from the other provinces or do they have something else of value to those provinces? To achieve the granularity needed to represent an economy from basics to luxuries will the game engine withstand the scripting required and still have enough left for gameplay?

 

As always Mark I enjoy your history lessons and find they often lead to interesting questions.

[TwistedVizion]

The Evolving Society mod looks rather good, Too bad there's still a bit to go until its release, lets just hope it doesn't end up like Empires Glory.

Links: http://www.thenexusforums.com/index.php?/topic/83048-the-evolving-society-mod/

[MarkInMKUK]

Thoughts on infrastructure.

 

If we are to aim for a realistic "world" in Oblivion, then every item we see in the game must be traceable to a source. Ultimately that source may be physical, or magical, or a combination, but at some point someone or something has to have created it. So, what is needed to create (picking an example at random) a pair of boots?

 

The following items spring to mind for me, please add any I've forgotten.

 

Shoe manufacture:

- Shops (at least two - one making lower class footwear and one making upper class)

- Tools

- NPC Cobblers

-- NPC apprentices

- Transportation of finished shoes to clothing stores in other cities

 

Leather:

- Animal Hides - usually a combination of cow and pig skin. Boots maybe made from monster hides sometimes as they are tougher?

-- Farming?/Hunting?

- Tanning process

-- Wood for fires

--- Logging

-- Chemicals

--- Chemical production facilities

---- Chemical collection facilities

- Dying process

-- Wood for fires

--- Logging

-- Chemicals

--- Chemical production facilities

---- Chemical collection facilities

---- Water

 

Nails:

- Forge

-- NPC Blacksmith

--- NPC apprentice

- Forge equipment

-- Anvil

-- Hammers

-- Bellows

-- Tongs

- Raw material (Iron)

-- Iron Bars

--- Transportation from Ironworks

- Water (for power too)

 

Ironworks:

- Smelter/Furnace(s)

- Iron Ore

- Slag

- Coal

-- Mining

- Charcoal

-- Charcoal Burners

--- Logging

- Water

 

Transportation: (resource mod exists)

- Horse

- Wagon

- NPC Driver

 

Logging industry:

- NPC Workers

- Tree felling (?animation)

- Horse pulling log from wood to track animation)

- Accommodation (Camp/huts)

 

I'm sure the list is far longer, but I'm trying to build up an idea of what we would need to add to Oblivion to make it represent the "real world" more closely. Much of this infrastructure would also be common to other tasks such as glass-making or weaving or building. Anything that can't be made in Cyrodiil needs a source - probably import via trade ports. But what can Cyrodil export? Did Rome export stuff, or just rule?

 

If we want to add mining - what is Cyrodiil's underlying geology? What kinds of rocks do we find, and where? Morrowind was obviously volcanic, so rocks would have been ingeous, probably basaltic in type. Cyrodiil, however, is more likely to be sedimentary and then "crumpled" to form most of the height changes, and areas such as Elsweyr (desert) are probably either becoming, or eroding from, sandstone. However, Cyrodiil MAY have had a volcanic past, with volcanic peaks parallel to the coast overlying a subduction zone (like Japan or the Pacific coast of America).

 

Thoughts and additions please. especially modders resource links to see what is already created, and what has yet to be even attempted.

Edited July 14, 2011 by MarkInMKUK

[Striker879]

Looking at your 'boots needs' list the size of the project begins to appear. Even with load consolidation, can you imagine the size of the transportation fleet required to move this stuff to market? Talk about crowded roads. Bridges make Anvil and Leyawiin the only available ports for import ... the Gold Coast Road becomes a highway. What becomes of the bandits, monsters and wildlife? If they're allowed to persist are the transporters sufficiently armed to defend themselves or would a beefed up Legion patrol be needed? The Inns along the route are kind of small ... would the transporters work in teams and have sleeping space for one on their wagons (ala modern truckers)?

 

It would be informative to discover the major sources of income Rome used to support itself (I suspect it's main 'export' was the tax revenue it collected from it's conquered provinces). Knowledge is a viable commodity for export, and Cyrodill has training for mages at least, perhaps the University needs a larger, more diverse student body. As far as mineral wealth, perhaps Cyrodill imports raw ingots and produces finished goods for export (the higher end products being the most likely ... import gold and silver bars and export jewelry and luxury tableware for example). That way the infrastructure needed is more limited in size and we're not 'messing up' Cyrodill with mining, milling and smelting facilities.

 

Even with winnowing the list to obvious easy to implement choices this is a project of epic proportions.

[MarkInMKUK]

Who fancies working on "Oblivion II: The REAL Cyrodiil"?

 

More seriously, yes, it could turn into a mammoth undertaking, at least the size of Nehrim (although there should be far more re-useable if we stuck with remaking the landscape in which the Oblivion game was played to suit our infrastructure, rather than redesigning everything from the ground up (and down). I'm keeping an eye on Vox Populi (the mod formerly known as The Evolving Society Mod) to see what they come up with too.

[MarkInMKUK]

I'm back on my Realism quest - this time with a freshly-created Khajiit character - Crouching Tiger (what - you don't think that's original? Nor do I - but I'm crap at naming characters. Maybe I should have called him "Next of Kzin"...)

 

Starting with a vanilla install of Oblivion, I'm trying as near as possible an all-BAIN installation, which you can follow here. The next post will add the "basic" realism mods I used before, but there is (currently) one addition - the Auto Night Eye mod for Khajiits. As soon as the light level drops enough, night-eye kicks in automatically (as it should) Currently it's a little bright for my tastes, but some hunting for an alternate shader should help that. I'll add in the same "dropped torch" mod as before, but only to check for potential clashes, as I obviously don't need one now :)

[MarkInMKUK]

Here kitty, kitty - Oblivion realism with a Khajiit

 

Starting with the install from the post above, I was expecting the Auto Night Eye mod for Khajiits to save me a lot of work. Well it did, sort of - but at the expense of feeling like a rabbit in a headlight!

 

The problem is that the mod makes the game look like your character is carrying a massive floodlight, and waiting until it is dark enough that you can't see, then turning it on full and momentarily blinding yourself. I've tried all of the "different night-eye shader" variations I can find, and they all have a massive jump in brightness as the effect cuts in.

 

So what am I actually after? What I was hoping for is a brightness setting somewhere around "average" for a vanilla cave, with a desaturated image (colours should not show in the dark), which FADES IN as the area becomes darker. In bright light you would see colour, and as it reaches the threshold you would gradually lose colour in the view, while it remained more-or-less constant in brightness.

 

In addition to the above, it would be ideal if, once the area dropped below (say) 5% light, the view would fade to black as you approach 0% light - after all, cats can't see in the dark, they can just see in dim light six times better than we can. That would also leave dungeons which are DESIGNED to be pitch black as challenging for a Khajiit as for other races. This would, of course, involve a racial ability which is a modified "Night Eye" - as the existing spell should remain as it is for all characters to use.

 

Comments please?

Edited July 18, 2011 by MarkInMKUK

[billyro]

Perhaps a constant altering night eye, which aquires the general darkness of the room and sets a night eye at a certain level accordingly. So say, it's 50% dark, the night eye would automatically make a shader that actually makes it about 25% dark for khajiits.

[MarkInMKUK]

That sounds like something close to what I'm after, yes,

 

I need to do some light level checking, to see where I'd want the effect to be noticeable. The "six times better than human" figure seems sensible - if a human runs into problems at (say) 60%, a Khajiit should have no problem down to about 10%, but by the time it's totally dark BOTH should need a torch. That should give the base figures needed for the idea to work.

Edited July 18, 2011 by MarkInMKUK

[leirynot]

Oscuro's Oblivion Overhall and Deadly Reflex both add a lot of realism. OOO does many things which I won't go into detail with explaining and Deadly Reflex improves combat by adding shield bashes, kicks, critical hits, decapitation, impaling people when they are on the ground, sneak attacks, and the ability to throw people with telekinesis.