Keynes VS Hayek

[csgators]

It doesn't make it good.

 

It tricks people into thinking its good, so they will keep buying it.

 

Just because people buy something, doesn't mean its good as a whole.

 

People buy cigarettes, is that good?

 

It is "good" in that people buy what they want. Some people want tobacco, that is their choice. They know the risks but decide that the benefit they get out of it out ways the hazard. You may not agree but you are not the arbiter of all that is good in the world for everyone.

 

How do you think it will make electricity cost five times more?

 

It's actually much more than 5 times higher, at least solar is: http://greenecon.net/understanding-the-cost-of-solar-energy/energy_economics.html

 

What are the bad environmental problems with solar and wind power?

 

With solar power the problem comes from the manufacturing of the panels and the disposal of the panels, with wind you have damage to wildlife, esp. birds. Not to mention the vast amount of land use required, the noise from wind turbines and they are an eyesore.

 

Some of the problems are listed here: http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/technology_and_impacts/impacts/environmental-impacts-of.html

 

I am all for clean energy but everything, and I mean everything has a cost/benefit ratio that needs to be taken into account. If energy goes up in an extreme way it will literally kill millions if not billions of people, mostly the poor.

Your best argument against wind energy is that it might kill birds? I find that highly unlikely that a large amount of birds will be killed by a wind turbine.

 

Solar energy may cost more currently, but if it has continued use it will eventuality lower in cost.

 

Back to what I was saying, we can''t use clean energy just because it costs more? That is quite clearly a issue with the free market.

 

Some people can't afford medicine, should they just die?

 

The only reason people smoke is due to mass advertisement, if people were never tricked it would have never of made profit.

 

Corporations do not care if their products hurt people, they will advertise it to a point that people will buy it.

 

Actually if you read my whole post my primary point was the cost, a cost that will lead to people dying because they can't afford energy. Electricity is in my mind the greatest benefit to mankind ever discovered/invented. Switching to new sources of power prematurely will deny that benefit to huge numbers of people leading to death and disease on a mass scale.

[marharth]

It doesn't make it good.

 

It tricks people into thinking its good, so they will keep buying it.

 

Just because people buy something, doesn't mean its good as a whole.

 

People buy cigarettes, is that good?

 

It is "good" in that people buy what they want. Some people want tobacco, that is their choice. They know the risks but decide that the benefit they get out of it out ways the hazard. You may not agree but you are not the arbiter of all that is good in the world for everyone.

 

How do you think it will make electricity cost five times more?

 

It's actually much more than 5 times higher, at least solar is: http://greenecon.net/understanding-the-cost-of-solar-energy/energy_economics.html

 

What are the bad environmental problems with solar and wind power?

 

With solar power the problem comes from the manufacturing of the panels and the disposal of the panels, with wind you have damage to wildlife, esp. birds. Not to mention the vast amount of land use required, the noise from wind turbines and they are an eyesore.

 

Some of the problems are listed here: http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/technology_and_impacts/impacts/environmental-impacts-of.html

 

I am all for clean energy but everything, and I mean everything has a cost/benefit ratio that needs to be taken into account. If energy goes up in an extreme way it will literally kill millions if not billions of people, mostly the poor.

Your best argument against wind energy is that it might kill birds? I find that highly unlikely that a large amount of birds will be killed by a wind turbine.

 

Solar energy may cost more currently, but if it has continued use it will eventuality lower in cost.

 

Back to what I was saying, we can''t use clean energy just because it costs more? That is quite clearly a issue with the free market.

 

Some people can't afford medicine, should they just die?

 

The only reason people smoke is due to mass advertisement, if people were never tricked it would have never of made profit.

 

Corporations do not care if their products hurt people, they will advertise it to a point that people will buy it.

 

Actually if you read my whole post my primary point was the cost, a cost that will lead to people dying because they can't afford energy. Electricity is in my mind the greatest benefit to mankind ever discovered/invented. Switching to new sources of power prematurely will deny that benefit to huge numbers of people leading to death and disease on a mass scale.

"Can't afford the cost."

 

Which is why a free market capitalist system will not work.

 

It's all about the costs, it doesn't matter if people need energy to live. If it doesn't make profit it won't exist.

[csgators]

Not to mention that less than 1% of our electricity is generated using petroleum products. Natural gas is the biggest, and most of what is used, is 'produced'.... right here in the states. Transportation and manufacturing are the biggest consumers of petroleum products. For a time, methanol was considered the 'next best thing', but, when a good percentage of crop production was shifted from feed, to methanol production, the prices of FOOD climbed alarmingly.

 

Wind power is not the answer, it is just the current fad. For relatively small uses, sure, it works. But, for large scale electricity production, it has way too many problems to make it viable. Biggest of which is, the wind just isn't reliable, therefore, you must have some manner of backup generation to supplement the windmills. What do they generally use? Diesel generators....... kinda counter-productive, don't ya think?

 

 

Good points as usual. Good to have you posting here. Long term I think solar is going to be a the best source of energy but it has a long, long way to go.

[csgators]

"Can't afford the cost."

 

Which is why a free market capitalist system will not work.

 

It's all about the costs, it doesn't matter if people need energy to live. If it doesn't make profit it won't exist.

 

Let's pretend we all live in your dreamworld. The "cost" would mean that your labor is worth a fraction of what it is worth now. So all of us slaves would have to work 5/10/50 times harder to produce the same quality of life we have now. Cost isn't just a capitalist invention, it is a law of the universe.

[marharth]

"Can't afford the cost."

 

Which is why a free market capitalist system will not work.

 

It's all about the costs, it doesn't matter if people need energy to live. If it doesn't make profit it won't exist.

 

Let's pretend we all live in your dreamworld. The "cost" would mean that your labor is worth a fraction of what it is worth now. So all of us slaves would have to work 5/10/50 times harder to produce the same quality of life we have now. Cost isn't just a capitalist invention, it is a law of the universe.

Your missing my point.

 

The energy companies charge fees.

 

If the company is unregulated they can do whatever.

 

It is not a good idea to leave certain things in the hands of a company with a profit motive, that is what I am saying.

[csgators]

"Can't afford the cost."

 

Which is why a free market capitalist system will not work.

 

It's all about the costs, it doesn't matter if people need energy to live. If it doesn't make profit it won't exist.

 

Let's pretend we all live in your dreamworld. The "cost" would mean that your labor is worth a fraction of what it is worth now. So all of us slaves would have to work 5/10/50 times harder to produce the same quality of life we have now. Cost isn't just a capitalist invention, it is a law of the universe.

Your missing my point.

 

The energy companies charge fees.

 

If the company is unregulated they can do whatever.

 

It is not a good idea to leave certain things in the hands of a company with a profit motive, that is what I am saying.

 

Profit and loss are important, think of it as sickness and health. Profit means that something is working, loss means it is not. Take that away and you have waste and decay. Profit motive keeps things healthy.

[marharth]

"Can't afford the cost."

 

Which is why a free market capitalist system will not work.

 

It's all about the costs, it doesn't matter if people need energy to live. If it doesn't make profit it won't exist.

 

Let's pretend we all live in your dreamworld. The "cost" would mean that your labor is worth a fraction of what it is worth now. So all of us slaves would have to work 5/10/50 times harder to produce the same quality of life we have now. Cost isn't just a capitalist invention, it is a law of the universe.

Your missing my point.

 

The energy companies charge fees.

 

If the company is unregulated they can do whatever.

 

It is not a good idea to leave certain things in the hands of a company with a profit motive, that is what I am saying.

 

Profit and loss are important, think of it as sickness and health. Profit means that something is working, loss means it is not. Take that away and you have waste and decay. Profit motive keeps things healthy.

Profit means something is working for the corporation, not always for the consumers.

 

Things like energy is something you pretty much need, they make profit almost always since everyone requires energy.

[csgators]

 

Profit means something is working for the corporation, not always for the consumers.

 

Things like energy is something you pretty much need, they make profit almost always since everyone requires energy.

 

The vast majority of energy companies are granted government enforced monopolies that restrict the profit margin of the company. If actual competition was allowed the priced would almost certainly drop. The price of energy is also effected in a major way by rules and regulation imposed by various governments. You can't just build a new plant wherever you want, this restricts how much power can be produced and effects prices.

[marharth]

energy companies are granted government enforced monopolies

Can you extend on that?

[csgators]

energy companies are granted government enforced monopolies

Can you extend on that?

 

Can you chose who you buy electricity from? I can't. We have a government council that works with my power company to set the rates of the company I HAVE to buy the electricity from. Assuming I want to but electricity that is.