Keynes VS Hayek

[csgators]

Republicans have historically helped the upper class, why would you think the opposing party would want to help the bankers?

 

You obviously haven't been paying attention and are simply regurgitating propaganda. The effect of most of the lefts policies is to transfer money from the poor and lower middle class to the middle and upper class. Just because the name of program sounds nice that doesn't mean it does what they say it does. Public housing has hurt the poor, subsidized higher education helps the middle class and rich much more than the poor (it is in fact a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich). Not only do the Democrats policies usually do the opposite of the intended result, they take away liberty at every step. Social Security has the net effect of taking money from the working poor and giving it to the upper classes. Don't believe me? Statistically most working poor don't live long enough to collect befits or only collect for a few years while the upper classes live longer and end up getting more back than they pay in.

Edited May 13, 2011 by csgators

[marharth]

Republicans have historically helped the upper class, why would you think the opposing party would want to help the bankers?

 

You obviously haven't been paying attention and are simply regurgitating propaganda. The effect of most of the lefts policies is to transfer money from the poor and lower middle class to the middle and upper class. Just because the name of program sounds nice that doesn't mean it does what they say it does. Public housing has hurt the poor, subsidized higher education helps the middle class and rich much more than the poor (it is fact a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich). Not only do the Democrats policies usually do the opposite of the intended result, they take away liberty at every step. Social Security has the net effect of taking money from the working poor and giving it to the upper classes. Don't believe me? Statistically most working poor don't live long enough to collect befits or only collect for a few years while the upper classes live longer and end up getting more back than they pay in.

Subsidizing higher education is not just a left wing policy.

 

How does public housing hurt the poor?

 

What democratic policies take away liberty?

 

Most working poor probably do live long enough, but if they don't the republican party wants to raise the age for benefits even more, so that's not helping your point much.

 

 

 

The structure of old kingdoms were right wing, and they supported a strong upper class.

 

Communism supports a classless society to benefit the current lower class.

 

Socialism supports the lower class as well.

 

Fascism supports corporate power and the upper class.

 

 

 

Since you seem to think that left help the upper class I will make a list of some US policies.

 

1. The right wing supports tax cuts to the upper class.

 

2. The right wing supported segregation.

 

3. The right wing commonly supports wars, that directly help military contractors.

 

4. The right wing supports a strong private sector as opposed to a public sector, which helps the upper class.

 

5. The right wind supports private prisons, which help the upper class.

 

6. The right wing supports government subities.

 

7. The right wing does not like corporate regulation.

 

I can name a few more, but I am trying to make this post quick.

[csgators]

 

Subsidizing higher education is not just a left wing policy.

 

 

 

It's a big government interventionist policy whoever advocates for it.

 

How does public housing hurt the poor?

 

In many, many ways. For one thing it forces all the poor people to live in the same area, not to mention encouraging broken homes and making people reliant on the government for the most basic of needs.

 

 

What democratic policies take away liberty?

 

In every way, every new rule takes away freedom, every new spending program takes money from those who earned it and gives to those who didn't. Private property rights are key component to a free society. Taking money by force is not liberty.

 

 

Most working poor probably do live long enough, but if they don't the republican party wants to raise the age for benefits even more, so that's not helping your point much.

 

Rather than bring the whole system down yes, along with means testing or allowing people to opt into a private system. But the dems just want to keep on making bigger and bigger deficits no matter the consequences.

 

The structure of old kingdoms were right wing, and they supported a strong upper class.

 

This reads to me as "if I don't like it then it is right wing", ancient kingdoms have nothing to do with the modern political system.

 

Communism supports a classless society to benefit the current lower class.

 

Everyone is equal but some people are more equal than others is the way it is practiced.

 

Socialism supports the lower class as well.

 

If you think living as a slave to the state and whims of the majority is support.

 

 

Fascism supports corporate power and the upper class.

 

No, it's authoritarian, they do whatever they want. They don't favor any class. One of the things Hitler used as propaganda was that class was irrelevant, everything was supposed to be merit based.

 

Since you seem to think that left help the upper class I will make a list of some US policies.

 

1. The right wing supports tax cuts to the upper class.

 

They support tax cuts for EVERYONE, just because Nancy Pelosi says it doesn't make it true.

 

2. The right wing supported segregation.

 

You mean the Democrats supported segregation and slavery. Again justy because you want it to be true doesn't mean it is.

 

3. The right wing commonly supports wars, that directly help military contractors.

 

Despite the fact that every major war of the 20th century was started with a Democrat as president. WWI, WW2, Korea and Vietnam. It was Ike that warned against the military industrial complex.

 

4. The right wing supports a strong private sector as opposed to a public sector, which helps the upper class.

 

Strong public sector only helps cronies, strong private sector helps everyone.

 

5. The right wind supports private prisons, which help the upper class.

 

How? Everyone can benefit from a private pension with no government strings attached and no coercion.

 

EDIT: I thought you said pension, not prisons. How exactly do private prisons help the wealthy? Well I guess since private systems are always more efficient and cost less that means less tax dollars need to be stolen, maybe you have a point.

 

6. The right wing supports government subities.

 

No, they don't. Some politicians on the right do but far more on the left. Subsidies are not in any way something the right advocates.

 

7. The right wing does not like corporate regulation.

 

The right wants free people to be free. Regulations for the most part are the elite of an industry buying protection from the government.

Edited May 13, 2011 by csgators

[marharth]

 

Subsidizing higher education is not just a left wing policy.

 

 

 

It's a big government interventionist policy whoever advocates for it.

 

How does public housing hurt the poor?

 

In many, many ways. For one thing it forces all the poor people to live in the same area, not to mention encouraging broken homes and making people reliant on the government for the most basic of needs.

 

 

What democratic policies take away liberty?

 

In every way, every new rule takes away freedom, every new spending program takes money from those who earned it and gives to those who didn't. Private property rights are key component to a free society. Taking money by force is not liberty.

 

 

Most working poor probably do live long enough, but if they don't the republican party wants to raise the age for benefits even more, so that's not helping your point much.

 

Rather than bring the whole system down yes, along with means testing or allowing people to opt into a private system. But the dems just want to keep on making bigger and bigger deficits no matter the consequences.

 

The structure of old kingdoms were right wing, and they supported a strong upper class.

 

This reads to me as "if I don't like it then it is right wing", ancient kingdoms have nothing to do with the modern political system.

 

Communism supports a classless society to benefit the current lower class.

 

Everyone is equal but some people are more equal than others is the way it is practiced.

 

Socialism supports the lower class as well.

 

If you think living as a slave to the state and whims of the majority is support.

 

 

Fascism supports corporate power and the upper class.

 

No, it's authoritarian, they do whatever they want. They don't favor any class. One of the things Hitler used as propaganda was that class was irrelevant, everything was supposed to be merit based.

 

Since you seem to think that left help the upper class I will make a list of some US policies.

 

1. The right wing supports tax cuts to the upper class.

 

They support tax cuts for EVERYONE, just because Nancy Pelosi says it doesn't make it true.

 

2. The right wing supported segregation.

 

You mean the Democrats supported segregation and slavery. Again justy because you want it to be true doesn't mean it is.

 

3. The right wing commonly supports wars, that directly help military contractors.

 

Despite the fact that every major war of the 20th century was started with a Democrat as president. WWI, WW2, Korea and Vietnam. It was Ike that warned against the military industrial complex.

 

4. The right wing supports a strong private sector as opposed to a public sector, which helps the upper class.

 

Strong public sector only helps cronies, strong private sector helps everyone.

 

5. The right wind supports private prisons, which help the upper class.

 

How? Everyone can benefit from a private pension with no government strings attached and no coercion.

 

EDIT: I thought you said pension, not prisons. How exactly do private prisons help the wealthy? Well I guess since private systems are always more efficient and cost less that means less tax dollars need to be stolen, maybe you have a point.

 

6. The right wing supports government subities.

 

No, they don't. Some politicians on the right do but far more on the left. Subsidies are not in any way something the right advocates.

 

7. The right wing does not like corporate regulation.

 

The right wants free people to be free. Regulations for the most part are the elite of an industry buying protection from the government.

I would prefer to be forced to live in one area if that meant I had a place to live.

 

How can you say that the left wing supported segregation?

 

The republican party for the most part does want tax cuts for everyone, they prioritize the rich in their tax cuts however. Trickle down economics, a right wing idea.

 

Saying that every MAJOR war was started with a democratic president proves nothing. Major wars are almost always valid. When it gets to smaller wars that make less sense it begins to have more to do with money.

 

A strong private sector is still supporting the upper class, despite the reasons for it.

 

About the private prison thing, it gives money to the owners of the prison and causes corruption in judges. That and it does have a lot of useless tax money go into them.

 

The right wing without question supports large businesses subsidies. They say it causes job creation in the USA, look it up if you wish. I could post a link later.

 

 

 

Taking money from those who earn it to fund programs that help those who don't earn it would be helping the lower class. I suppose if you think taxes are taking away liberties then that makes sense, the tax thing is another subject though.

 

 

Raising the retirement age does not help the system at all, the system is completely funded by tax money and the money in it should not be taken out for anything else.

 

Raising the retirement age just results in the government getting free money for the system due to people dying.

 

Old kingdoms are nothing like modern government, but many right wing ideas that we have now were used back then.

 

One of the things of fascism is corporate power, how can you say that it doesn't support the upper class?

 

 

I still don't quite understand why you think "regulation" means "corporations buying government support."

[marharth]

Just a update, there was a vote yesterday to end oil subsidizes.

 

The vote would have ended oil subsidizes.

 

The republicans filibustered it.

Edited May 18, 2011 by marharth

[csgators]

2 Million dollar lotto winner on food stamps.

 

One in five Obamacare waivers go to Nancy Pelosi's district.

Edited May 18, 2011 by csgators

[marharth]

2 Million dollar lotto winner on food stamps.

Food stamps help the economy like I said before.

 

Not only that, half of his prize went to taxes anyways, he is pretty much paying for the food stamps with the one million dollars in taxes.

[csgators]

2 Million dollar lotto winner on food stamps.

Food stamps help the economy like I said before.

 

Not only that, half of his prize went to taxes anyways, he is pretty much paying for the food stamps with the one million dollars in taxes.

 

Again, food stamps help the economy only if you ignore the part where they take the money from somewhere else. Your theory only works if the money for the food stamps magically appears somehow. Are you seriously telling me than a person driving a brand new Audi and a mil in the bank should qualify for food stamps?

Edited May 18, 2011 by csgators

[marharth]

2 Million dollar lotto winner on food stamps.

Food stamps help the economy like I said before.

 

Not only that, half of his prize went to taxes anyways, he is pretty much paying for the food stamps with the one million dollars in taxes.

 

Again, food stamps help the economy only if you ignore the part where they take the money from somewhere else. Your theory only works if the money for the food stamps magically appears somehow. Are you seriously telling me than a person driving a brand new Audi and a mil in the bank should qualify for food stamps?

Of course he shouldn't have food stamps, I am just saying it doesn't really matter.

 

As I said before, food stamps work as a stimulus. I have already explained why it works like a stimulus.

 

"if you ignore the part where they take the money from somewhere else"

 

The stimulus effect does not have physical money, it simply makes people spend money more which helps the economy.

 

If you think you need physical money for everything and mathematical effects do not matter, how do you explain cutting spending without raising taxes?

[csgators]

2 Million dollar lotto winner on food stamps.

Food stamps help the economy like I said before.

 

Not only that, half of his prize went to taxes anyways, he is pretty much paying for the food stamps with the one million dollars in taxes.

 

Again, food stamps help the economy only if you ignore the part where they take the money from somewhere else. Your theory only works if the money for the food stamps magically appears somehow. Are you seriously telling me than a person driving a brand new Audi and a mil in the bank should qualify for food stamps?

Of course he shouldn't have food stamps, I am just saying it doesn't really matter.

 

As I said before, food stamps work as a stimulus. I have already explained why it works like a stimulus.

 

"if you ignore the part where they take the money from somewhere else"

 

The stimulus effect does not have physical money, it simply makes people spend money more which helps the economy.

 

If you think you need physical money for everything and mathematical effects do not matter, how do you explain cutting spending without raising taxes?

 

It is known as debt which is even worse than spending money we actually have (or by devaluing the dollar). When you add in the result it is even worse. It is NOT stimulus at all, you are only looking at one aspect of food stamps, you need to look at the bigger picture.

 

If you think food stamps are stimulus than you think a broken window is stimulus. If a broken window is stimulus why don't we run around breaking windows to fix the economy?