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New crisis on horizon: Mod Menu Category Formlist Cap Bug?

Gambit77

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Gambit77

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So I had a user contact me today because when he'd go into the armor workbench all the mod categories were gone. Looking at his load order I noticed he had a lot of mod weapons, which would each be adding new mod categories for their mods.

 

Here's the converstaion:

 

KingofPilots:

Hello! I'm writing here because i thought i didn't want to clog up your comment section with a bug that's probably my own fault.

Thing is, after loading my game all the mods on my outfits don't show up anymore. That is, lining, addons and all the modifications you enabled, they kinda...disappeared. I'll send you the load order, hopefully you can help me zero in on my mistake!

 

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Gambit77:

Looking at your load order, I would say you launched the game with the Fallout launcher, which disables your plugins. You wouldn't know this because once you open NMM to try to figure out what happened, NMM has re-enabled all your plugins. Always use NMM or F4SE to load the game.

 

KingofPilots:

Using NMM + F4SE, and the additional mods appear for just a second, while browsing the armors, but then "disappear" and the slot with it. It's really peculiar!
Could that be related to the FormID limit?

 

KingofPilots:

So....i solved the problem. Remember how you end up always putting the most important mods down to overwrite everything? Seems they feel lonely down there. Put your mod (and some other mods concerning appearence and mods) all up cozy near the .esm, and now they all show up perfectly.

So, i advise you might want to write on your wall that anyone encountering the same problem as i did, to put those mods up in the load list to make them work properly :smile:

 

Gambit77:

This isn't the crafting menu category formlist cap bug, but it could maybe be a mod category formlist cap bug. I notice looking at your load order that you have a lot of new weapon mods, so theoretically all the new mod categories that each one has could be making you hit a keyword cap. Are you by chance experiencing the invisible robot bug as well?

I'm afraid that you're in uncharted waters my friend. If there is a keyword cap on mod categories, it's going to get real messy, as there is no good fix like a shared keyword resource. It could be done to set up shared mod menu categories, but with weapons, the problem would be that since all the mods have actual physical appearances and their own meshes, they're not interchangable among weapons like armor/clothing mods are. The only fix I see is for mod authors to use shared mod category keywords and labeling each mod as for a particular weapon, and then mod users paying attention and using only the appropriate mods on their weapon, instead of trying to put one weapon's mods on a different weapon (which could either work or be way f***ed up and cause problems).

 

KingofPilots:

All my robotic friends here are 100% opaque, so it seems more like to load something that far down causes some havok with the already....precarious engine. Tho it's leaps and bound ahead of the earlier messes, this still is the gamebryo engine that we all know and lost hours trying to make work!

 

Gambit77:

I think you're fix probably just changed what menus are disappearing, check all your mod guns.

 

KingofPilots:

Nothing yet, even worsin's huge mod, crafting recipes...it all seems to show up! This is really really odd!

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Gambit77 Collaborator

Gambit77

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Actually I just thought of a way to make shared weapon mod categories work. The mod authors could add a condition to their weapon's mod recipes that the weapon had to be equipped. That way only mods for the mod weapon equipped would show up when modding that weapon.

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Well I've caught the bug after installing the CROSS mods. So this is bad news because it means the cap isn't all that far from what vanilla uses. I'm not really using many mods that add mod menus.

Armorsmith Extended has 6

Armorsmith Proto Vault Suit Extended has 1

CROSS Cybernetics has maybe 13

CROSS Uni Scarf has 3

CROSS Uni Belt has 3

CROSS Exo Frame has maybe 2

Wearable Backpacks has 12

Custom Combat Armor v2.2 has 6, not sure if that's the current count.

Blade & Soul Schoolgirl outfit has 7

Celtic Katana has 1

NCR Ranger Gear has 1

Combat Helmet Illumination has 2

Kerrigan Color Changer has 2

Power Armors Materials Paints has 1

 

So 60 mod menu keywords is enough to go over the cap. And based on what I was missing the cap looks to be 46 mod menu keywords over vanilla or less because i was missing all 6 mod menus from AE and I had another 8 below that in my load order. I can do some further testing to see what's missing from CCCA and wearable backpacks as those are the next mods up my load order that might be affected. That's bad. That is way less wiggle room than we had for crafting menu keywords. That sucks big time.

 

EDIT: Ok, after further testing the keywords from CCCA and Wearable Backpacks were gone as well. The first working menu keyword was for the Celtic Katana, which was the next one up in my load order after WB. So it looks like the cap is vanilla + 28 new mod menu keywords. Although the + 28 might be as high as 39, because it seems that it might break all the keywords in a plugin if it hits the cap inside that plugin, because I was at +39 before I installed the CROSS mods and I'm pretty sure I had all the menus from Blade & Soul Schoolgirl outfit which was the lowest in my load order. I suspect that if WB's count would have been 11 instead of 12 that I would have gotten the menus from it.

 

I'm not exactly sure how we should proceed, but it's looking like we should stop using mod menus for outfit visual customization, which sucks because it was a real cool feature. And I think we need to set up a shared mod menu keyword system for weapon modding.

 

Here's my broken load order for reference.

 

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Edited by Gambit77
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mac2636 Proficient

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  On 2/7/2016 at 12:04 AM, Gambit77 said:

Well I've caught the bug after installing the CROSS mods. So this is bad news because it means the cap isn't all that far from what vanilla uses. I'm not really using many mods that add mod menus.

Armorsmith Extended has 6

Armorsmith Proto Vault Suit Extended has 1

CROSS Cybernetics has maybe 13

CROSS Uni Scarf has 3

CROSS Uni Belt has 3

CROSS Exo Frame has maybe 2

Wearable Backpacks has 12

Custom Combat Armor v2.2 has 6, not sure if that's the current count.

Blade & Soul Schoolgirl outfit has 7

Celtic Katana has 1

NCR Ranger Gear has 1

Combat Helmet Illumination has 2

Kerrigan Color Changer has 2

Power Armors Materials Paints has 1

 

So 60 mod menu keywords is enough to go over the cap. And based on what I was missing the cap looks to be 46 mod menu keywords over vanilla or less because i was missing all 6 mod menus from AE and I had another 8 below that in my load order. I can do some further testing to see what's missing from CCCA and wearable backpacks as those are the next mods up my load order that might be affected. That's bad. That is way less wiggle room than we had for crafting menu keywords.

 

I'm not exactly sure how we should proceed, but it's looking like we should stop using mod menus for outfit visual customization, which sucks because it was a real cool feature. And I think we need to set up a shared mod menu keyword system for weapon modding.

 

Here's my broken load order for reference.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I've been holding off on trying Cross's mod because I was worried about the number of keywords it may add.

 

Wonder if Beth is planning a fix before CK is released? Do tou think their intitial limit is based on performance limits from the 3d menu icons?

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Gambit77 Collaborator

Gambit77

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This sounds scary, but I doubt Bethesda will fix it at all. This was also an issue in Skyrim, and I think it was Chesko and the SKSE team that finally fixed it. Here's a link to Chesko talking about how he raised the cap.

 

And for clarification I'm not sure about those two counts on CROSS mods. That's what it looked like in the plugin, but I could have interpreted it wrong, as I've haven't seen the menus ingame yet. And it's not any one mod's fault. It just doesn't pay to be a big fish in a small pond with such a small amount of water to go around.

 

We're all going to have to get creative to come together to fix this problem, or people are just going to avoid the mods with big footprints. The real problem down the road is new weapons and their mods. We need to set up a framework to handle those or there will be widespread frustration.

 

I can add shared weapon mod menu keywords to AWKCR, but we need to have a discussion on what those keywords will be, and since I'm not a weapon modder I don't think I should be deciding that. I need input from the modders directly affected by this. I'd like the King of the Weapon Modders to chime in because people will follow his lead on this, so enter the discussion please Millenia.

Edited by Gambit77
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mac2636 Proficient

mac2636

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  On 2/7/2016 at 1:08 AM, Gambit77 said:

This sounds scary, but I doubt Bethesda will fix it at all. This was also an issue in Skyrim, and I think it was Chesko and the SKSE team that finally fixed it. Here's a link to Chesko talking about how he raised the cap.

Thanks for the info. I never really played Skyrim much so I had no idea. Can't believe they didn't fix the issue going into FO4 development.

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JonathanOstrus Experienced

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Well. Crap. I guess that means that the piercings and my BNS mods need some tweaking.

 

Since I already have mod parts made for the BNS, if I just remove the ability to change it via the mod slots menu would that still cause a problem? In case that isn't clear, I mean still have mods, but attached automatically via the ARMO record. Just not having a category that shows up in the crafting menus. This would require creating a different ARMO record and adding the mod attachments, kind of like how the colored mining helmets work. I'd have to take a look at those again to see, as I'm not real familiar with how they are.

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Niero Explorer

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I ran into this a few days ago. My solution was to start riding off of vanilla categories. So most of my armors (that have been since updated) now use things like AP_Reciever to alter armatures, AP_Barrel for palette mods, AP_Grip for material swaps, ect ect. This works as long as omods are given unique MA keywords to prevent them from showing up in other item's modmenus. I'm still not sure if excessive Dynamic naming keywords cause issues with this, but Ive been trying to be more effcient with them.

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Gambit77 Collaborator

Gambit77

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@BigandFlabby

Yeah, I think removing the the mod slots menus would would put you in the clear. You just don't want to rely on people being able to access mod menus that they might not be able to use because of the bug.

Edited by Gambit77
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