Why? I mean why? Really why?

[Ghogiel]

What then is your theory as to why there is a large bias for skimpy female outfits and in comparison to a seemingly lack of interest in creating anything male related?

 

as for RP, and strengthening their self image. I think I am on the money. Is it not obvious that you would only play with things that you naturally identify with.

 

So, basically you're saying that I act like a baby because I had a baby doll when I was a kid? :P

not at all lol. I think what that quote is saying, that if you play female characters in a game currently, you are associating yourself with that character (duh) and projecting identity traits from yourself onto that character. And in doing so those traits are strengthened in yourself.

I mean, if nothing else, you'd think that someone would eventually strengthen their self-image as a tough killer enough to actually go shoot someone, if it actually worked that way.

 

That quote says nothing of the sort. I think you missed the boat on it. Do you harbour those traits or identify yourself with killers, how are you going to strengthen an identity that you do not have? So far you disregard the theory of self identification with a persons chosen RP character. OK that is fair enough. I still think this is gender roles 101. which leads me onto.....

Here I thought that the way we act in games is because they're games and we can do it to escape reality.

yes.. into a fantasy of your choosing, with mods, this choice is very free to be personalised, and a very common choice seems to be playing the role of a female sex toy, Why?

 

(if this is a sexual fantasy thing, I do not think that works correctly in the norm. Most men watch porn that is not lesbian porn, and the most popular is boy+girl. If I watch porn I do not identify with the female role. I am the male participant in my fantasy, no the fun part...female sex slave. no really, if this is a fantasy thing, I think that is the one that is being fulfilled. That I do get. )

 

If I wanted to strengthen my self image in games, I'd play games where my character is a programming consultant..

Dude. Why are you givin it all that armchair business. I said I found that quote funny. I didn't say I know it to be facts, or that I even agreed with it.

. I really don't see RP as the reason why people choose their outfits in single player games.

RP might have something to do with this in single player RPG games. Which is like all the games on this site if you hadn't realised.

 

tl;dr

Maybe some male modders are fulfillg a fantasy of owning a female sex slave. < hehe, I know sloffy would be candid about wanting a male sex slaxe :teehee: So it probably works both ways.

Maybe some identify themselves more with female characters for some reason. possibly also fantasy related.

 

lol this thread.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Ghogiel

[raventrigun]

Actually I wasn't expecting so many responses, but I Like I said before I got really pissed when I downloaded the ghost variants mod and there was no male stuff. I don't like playing barbie dolls, but I like my PC to look like a bad ass. This modding community is so much different from Dragon Age's, I can find a ton of pimp armors for my guys in DA nexus.

 

Spectre armor would look so bad ass on a dude. Honestly I can find a mod for FO3 that creates a race that make your PC look like a female bodybuilder, but I can't find a mod that puts a toe spike on a boot, or make me look like Mongus Humongus from the road warrior, or resistance soldier from terminator, c'mon.

 

If you don't believe me http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=14508, warning some disturbing images, so if nudity offends don't bother looking.

 

I believe a User name Breeze made Male Models not Clothes mind you but the body texture you should try looking for him.

 

I just spend my time playing Female and making my characters into raving insane Assassins

[Moraelin]

What then is your theory as to why there is a large bias for skimpy female outfits and in comparison to a seemingly lack of interest in creating anything male related?

 

What's wrong with just getting an erection? Playing dress-up? Being someone else than in real life? There are tons of reasons.

 

as for RP, and strengthening their self image. I think I am on the money.

 

Well, obviously you think you're right on the money, or you wouldn't post that. But so did Aristotle when he thought that flies have four legs, women have less teeth, and planets are made of fire and air because if they'd be made of earth or water they'd be heavy and fall down on the Earth. There's a reason we gave up on the idea of just trusting wise men to think up what would make sense to them to be true. We're kinda big on studies and evidence in the meantime, because when you trust someone to just imagine things, chances are he'll talk *censored*.

 

Even in psychology, we had Freud who, as it turns out, just made a lot of BS up based on what he imagined as making sense to him -- even the supposed patients he used as case studies, turns out, he just invented them as his own cameo roles -- and it's unsurprisingly all false. Turns out that psychology is more complicated than just sitting and thinking what you'd like to believe about other people.

 

Is it not obvious that you would only play with things that you naturally identify with.

 

not at all lol. I think what that quote is saying, that if you play female characters in a game currently, you are associating yourself with that character (duh) and projecting identity traits from yourself onto that character. And in doing so those traits are strengthened in yourself.

 

First of all, I'd like to see any evidence that anything is strengthened by playing a game. Because explaining how something happens before establishing if it happens, is called Tooth Fairy Science.

 

You'd think it would be noticeable by now if someone playing games that only allow certain traits to be manifested -- e.g., only aggressivity or sociopathic tendencies -- they'd actually become more like that. Those traits would be strengthened, while the other traits don't actually get a similar boost. I mean in the end we would notice what Liebermann and Jack Thompson keep claiming. But it doesn't seem to actually happen much. Best that was shown to happen are short term effects. But generally, we'd kinda notice that.

 

Second, and most importantly, if that's what you're saying, then why does it matter what gender that character is? Exactly how many traits are there that you can actually enact while playing that character, and how many of those depend on playing a man or a woman?

 

RP might have something to do with this in single player RPG games. Which is like all the games on this site if you hadn't realised.

 

Tacking stats and item prices on a FPS has exactly zero to do with playing a role. And following someone else's script while waiting for the next piece of the story to be revealed, isn't RP either. Just because some computer games misuse a term that means something completely different, doesn't make them RP.

 

Besides, there is no way to actually enact almost any kind of personality traits of that character, even if I wanted to project them on that character. There is no way to even create a more complex role than the most basic good/ridiculous-carricature-of-evil/psychotic archetypes. There is no way to even be the more creative kind of evil, like, dunno, fooling a few people into doing your dirty work while maintaining an aura of respectability. You can't be Al Capone who had people brutally murdered, while at the same time running soup kitchens for the poor, so he'd have a decent popular opinion oh his side, for example. I pick on evil stereotypes more because they're the worst done in games, but, really any kind of actual creative role play is pretty much right out. You just follow one of the options the designers gave you and that's that. And invariably they're a melodramatic stereotype that's been done to death, rather than anything having to do with the kind of personality traits I'd want that character to show.

 

And that is even missing the fact that most games don't even reward -- or sometimes even alow -- any approach more consistent than psychotic toadie. You have to pretend to be good to one character, while pretending to love kicking puppies to another, while pretending to be a hippie that's all into nature and #### to a third, while doing some quests that don't even allow one to be even one of those most of the time, much less show some complex personality traits.

[Ghogiel]

What's wrong with just getting an erection? Playing dress-up? Being someone else than in real life? There are tons of reasons.

Nothing is 'wrong' with that, I have been saying I appear to be the odd case here as I do not get erections from modding, playing violent video games or generally play gender swap in RPGs. Anyway, So you are of the opinion that playing a female character and modding sexy outfits is popular because it is simply just common behaviour for a predominately male player base to be fulfilling a sexual fantasy of playing(RPing) as a woman and dressing them up, or a any combo there of?

 

OK fair enough. I have basically brought up that theory.

Well, obviously you think you're right on the money, or you wouldn't post that. But so did Aristotle when he thought that flies have four legs, women have less teeth, and planets are made of fire and air because if they'd be made of earth or water they'd be heavy and fall down on the Earth. There's a reason we gave up on the idea of just trusting wise men to think up what would make sense to them to be true. We're kinda big on studies and evidence in the meantime, because when you trust someone to just imagine things, chances are he'll talk *censored*.

 

Even in psychology, we had Freud who, as it turns out, just made a lot of BS up based on what he imagined as making sense to him -- even the supposed patients he used as case studies, turns out, he just invented them as his own cameo roles -- and it's unsurprisingly all false. Turns out that psychology is more complicated than just sitting and thinking what you'd like to believe about other people.

You could have just said that you disagree with me when I said "Is it not obvious that you would only play with things that you naturally identify with."

 

If you would address the statement directly that would be best.

 

 

Second, and most importantly, if that's what you're saying, then why does it matter what gender that character is? Exactly how many traits are there that you can actually enact while playing that character, and how many of those depend on playing a man or a woman?

I'm not saying that. Someone else did. It is not my opinion, This is the second time I have clarifies that. I don't even know if it relevant. And in terms of in the game it doesn't matter so much, except for like ladykiller perk...Or visiting an in game prostitute, or installing any of the sex mods, or anything of the sort. What also matters is that you have made a concious decision to play out your character as either a male or female. That in and of itself has a lot of connotation. If character gender was an arbitrary choice that had zero significance to anything and is made at random, then it would statistically be an equal split between male and female characters/popularity of mods. But that is not the case. What I find surprising is that a lot males must play as female character as a lot of modders make content designed for them. they are seemingly more popular. I have only been asking why might that be...

 

 

Tacking stats and item prices on a FPS has exactly zero to do with playing a role. And following someone else's script while waiting for the next piece of the story to be revealed, isn't RP either. Just because some computer games misuse a term that means something completely different, doesn't make them RP.

Just so we are on the same page, How exactly do you define RPG? You have said what it isn't.. but is it then?

 

 

Besides, there is no way to actually enact almost any kind of personality traits of that character, even if I wanted to project them on that character. There is no way to even create a more complex role than the most basic good/ridiculous-carricature-of-evil/psychotic archetypes. There is no way to even be the more creative kind of evil, like, dunno, fooling a few people into doing your dirty work while maintaining an aura of respectability. You can't be Al Capone who had people brutally murdered, while at the same time running soup kitchens for the poor, so he'd have a decent popular opinion oh his side, for example. I pick on evil stereotypes more because they're the worst done in games, but, really any kind of actual creative role play is pretty much right out. You just follow one of the options the designers gave you and that's that. And invariably they're a melodramatic stereotype that's been done to death, rather than anything having to do with the kind of personality traits I'd want that character to show.

 

And that is even missing the fact that most games don't even reward -- or sometimes even alow -- any approach more consistent than psychotic toadie. You have to pretend to be good to one character, while pretending to love kicking puppies to another, while pretending to be a hippie that's all into nature and #### to a third, while doing some quests that don't even allow one to be even one of those most of the time, much less show some complex personality traits.

right. So why are males more likely to chose female sex toy like character to play? Surely that is out of bounds of the developers intent as well and is not rewarded in game at all.. yet it appears to be so popular.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Ghogiel

[Moraelin]

I'm not saying that. Someone else did. It is not my opinion, This is the second time I have clarifies that. I don't even know if it relevant. And in terms of in the game it doesn't matter so much, except for like ladykiller perk...Or visiting an in game prostitute, or installing any of the sex mods, or anything of the sort. What also matters is that you have made a concious decision to play out your character as either a male or female. That in and of itself has a lot of connotation. If character gender was an arbitrary choice that had zero significance to anything and is made at random, then it would statistically be an equal split between male and female characters/popularity of mods. But that is not the case. What I find surprising is that a lot males must play as female character as a lot of modders make content designed for them. they are seemingly more popular. I have only been asking why might that be...

 

But you have offered that whole projecting personality traits and strengthening self-image as some kind of alternate explanation. I'm just asking how does it explain the phenomenon at hand. Because it's only an explanation if it actually, you know, explains it. It's not enough that two things happen, for them to be an explanation for each other, or my alarm clock would explain why the sun rises ;)

 

So if that choice has anything to do with projecting personality traits onto a character... what personality traits does one need a female character for, in a game where basically all the choices and stats are the same, and where it's not even possible to role-play any kind of personality more complex than an over-simplified caricature of good or evil? I mean, even for joining an ultra-mysoginist organization like the Legion, there aren't even different dialogue lines. But even without that, what own personality traits, which obviously work well enough on a male IRL or I wouldn't have them, need a Barbie instead of a Ken? Can I adopt Brian and two dozen cats in FO3 instead of stoping the Enclave if I play a Barbie instead of a Ken? Do I get a pony?

 

I'm just asking exactly how does that explanation work.

 

Just so we are on the same page, How exactly do you define RPG? You have said what it isn't.. but is it then?

 

My objection wasn't with the use of the term "RPG", but with "for RP". Role-playing involves creating one's own role and character, and coming up with the things to say or do that fit one's own view of that character. E.g., if someone actually wanted to RP a prostitute, to go with those skimpy female "armours", RP would involve somehow acting out one's own vision of how that would work. Like, dunno, put Boone in a pimp suit for protection and try to actually get customers in front of the Lucky 38, and come up with the dialogue replies that reflect that. One can't really do that in a game where the story is fixed and dialogues are choices from a menu.

 

When doing that or playing with actual dolls, it's actually possible to give them your own idea of personality or reactions, and explore different social scenarios. But here the only scenarios are what Obsidian gave us.

 

right. So why are males more likely to chose female sex toy like character to play? Surely that is out of bounds of the developers intent as well and is not rewarded in game at all.. yet it appears to be so popular.

 

I dunno, I wasn't the one claiming it's explained by children's psychology :P

 

Me, I play both, but generally I like to look at a chick more than at a dude in VATS slow-motion sequences. I also tend to haul Veronica around more than Boone, which kinda makes it a pain in the butt to go get Boone every time I have to show how one of my suits looks on him. And I tend not to even recruit Arcade or Raul, but then again nor Lily :P

Edited May 27, 2011 by Moraelin

[Ghogiel]

 

So if that choice has anything to do with projecting personality traits onto a character... what personality traits does one need a female character for, in a game where basically all the choices and stats are the same, and where it's not even possible to role-play any kind of personality more complex than an over-simplified caricature of good or evil?

No, people can and do RP in OB, Fallout, DA. This much is imo apparent, just because you don't or don't believe others do, you need to provide some sort of counter evidence, as there is great evidence to suggest they do. Just look at the threads about RP, people have created elaborate back stories and personalities for their character. Also Modding. We are talking about mods, not what the vanilla game has offered. Saying that you cannot RP anything but a bland good/evil character is weak ground. And a bland character is still RPing.

 

Also, If I take it to an extreme case, when ever is the role of a female toy complex? but again there is a lot of images and mods uploaded here to suggest having one in your video games or playing as one is very popular. In context to the discussion, everyone has noticed that there just more skimpy lady outfits uploaded here than male specific ones.

 

mean, even for joining an ultra-mysoginist organization like the Legion, there aren't even different dialogue lines. But even without that, what own personality traits, which obviously work well enough on a male IRL or I wouldn't have them, need a Barbie instead of a Ken? Can I adopt Brian and two dozen cats in FO3 instead of stoping the Enclave if I play a Barbie instead of a Ken? Do I get a pony?

 

I'm just asking exactly how does that explanation work.

Yes actually. You can get a pony. You have to mod it. Though imo people won't likely do so because they can't. Or if they are playing Fallout lore purist and horses don't exist any more to them.

 

You do not need to have infinite options of dialogue choice open to you before you can RP. In context to playing a Fallout/Oblivion character, really do I need to be able to fly and shoot heat vision from my eyes, before I am RPing that character? I don't have that choice in RL. I have to abide by rules or laws, ie law of physics. Now if I am assuming the role of superman and acting that out, I will use my imagination, which is a like a simulation of sorts. That is actually similar to a video game. And is also bound by it's own limitations. That of my imagination.

Which is something you are failing to address, most forms of role play require a level of. video game RPing is not an exception.

 

My objection wasn't with the use of the term "RPG", but with "for RP". Role-playing involves creating one's own role and character, and coming up with the things to say or do that fit one's own view of that character. E.g., if someone actually wanted to RP a prostitute, to go with those skimpy female "armours", RP would involve somehow acting out one's own vision of how that would work.

 

When doing that or playing with actual dolls, it's actually possible to give them your own idea of personality or reactions, and explore different social scenarios. But here the only scenarios are what Obsidian gave us.

 

So you think it is only possible to RP if you can be both player and the GM at the same time? I am using a more standard definition: Role-playing is when you assume and act out a role. It's about fulfilling the role not creating one. In context of video games, RP is more often limited to an even stricter rule set and the player assumes the role only to progress a more or less predefined story.

 

I think keeping it roughly in context to video games would be best to avoid being ambiguous, and also helps to separate the role of GM and Player.

 

Like, dunno, put Boone in a pimp suit for protection and try to actually get customers in front of the Lucky 38, and come up with the dialogue replies that reflect that. One can't really do that in a game where the story is fixed and dialogues are choices from a menu.

1 word: Moddding. Players can actually GM as well not just RP. And the point is they do actually do things like that. Many images are uploaded daily that imply a large proportion of the predominately male user base, are playing with female characters. In context to this discussion, it is more to do with RPing as another gender,just in and of it self, oft with an exaggerated stereotype, not about what actual choices the game offers and that player can make. As I have pointed out already with in game and modded examples, choosing male or female characters does make a difference, and it is not an arbitrary random choice. there appears to be clear trend. And that implies there is something motivating that.

 

Your insistence that the game does not allow for any gender specific RP and implying that there no reason to choose male over female fails in that light. Even if it you couldn't possibly RP in F3, there still remains a a apparent trend in skimpy female modded outfits.

 

I dunno, I wasn't the one claiming it's explained by children's psychology :P

 

Me, I play both, but generally I like to look at a chick more than at a dude in VATS slow-motion sequences. I also tend to haul Veronica around more than Boone, which kinda makes it a pain in the butt to go get Boone every time I have to show how one of my suits looks on him. And I tend not to even recruit Arcade or Raul, but then again nor Lily :P

I have put forward a funny quote about child psychology. This is now the 3rd time I have clarified that I am not claiming it is explaining anything. But if you do not have anything besides your argument that you cannot RP in Fallout/Ob/DA and thus identifying your game character with yourself cannot be possible....it actually may still be applicable. Perhaps people still are identifying themselves with their game character. I don't know, that's why I am asking.

 

I know I identify with my characters.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Ghogiel

[ENBarcelo]

I'm actually referring to the mod hunter as opposed to the modder them self. Some outfits are downloaded less than others regardless of gender and a lot of them may fit into the same category.

 

I know I myself get lazy and don't feel like downloading and installing every sexy outfit I see. There's a lot to choose from and it's indeed overwhelming, but my point is the mod hunter may have a specific taste catered to what they are looking for for the specified character they are working on.

 

What if you make a guy you think would be kind of suave, a smooth talker type but the vanilla outfits aren't cutting it for you? you'd look for something catering to those needs, wouldn't you?

 

I'd personally rather play female characters but I'd definitely craft some male outfits if I were good at it for the sake of more variety for the lesser appreciated sex.

 

My thoughts sorta, just more male stuff, I mean there's some stuff out, but it's overwhelming the female stuff that's out there. And there's barely any custom male armors.

[Moraelin]

Look, all I'm saying is basically this:

 

I just spent my whole free time on Friday afternoon and half of Saturday to make some bayonets because I wanted them. It's actually much less than some of the other stuff took me, mostly because I still had the mesh and texture for an Epix Sabre before bending it. And that in turn is much less than those guys take to make an armour, btw.

 

I'm not getting paid a cent for this. I won't even be using them as portfolio to land a job, because I'm not in that line of work. It's just time pissed away on something I felt like doing.

 

Do you think anyone would have any right to come and say, "OMG, why? Really why? Why did you do that instead of what I wanted done?"

 

Well, the same applies to those folks making those armours. Is all I'm saying.

[Klipperken]

@ Gogiel: I am male. I role-played tremendously much in me ol' days (40 now, heading 41 June 12th).

Earthdawn, Warhammer (pen, paper and dice version, not the table battles), Shadowrun, Call of Cthulu, 5 Rings, D&D, AD&D, ODM,....

I tried a girl ONCE: it was hilarious, and got the tip to never EVER try that again.

"Ben, you're a fu...dging Neanderthal with -25% connection to your feminine side" one said, on which the then GM replied abruptly "What feminine side????"

 

Well, I tend to keep up to that incident and never try again, lol....

 

but we DID had a good laugh though...

[andreweve1]

Basically: females are aesthetically correct, males are just ugly like hell.

Don't tell me: now Michelangelo would disagree...

He's gay, therefor he is not a man, but a woman (no disrespect to gay people!!! I mean this in the GOOD way. Many of my friends are gay, and even girls think of them as female... And so do I. Naturally, they ALL disagree on my point of view regarding Aesthetics... *grins*).

 

Wow... Just, wow.