Ask punkfiveo...

[Dr. Corbett]

Strange. What if I were to believe that you, as a non-religious person, were biased? You'd deny it, much as I would deny any involvement in an interference in the search for truth. I have faith in my religion -- and if you're not going to believe anything that I say unless it's made by someone who's not a Christian [and if you find proof of Christianity, how the heck would you still be nonreligious -- at that very point your proof would become invalid to many], what's the point in arguing, anyway?

 

The fact of the matter is, there's no more "proof," in your sense of the word, that Jesus rose from the dead than that Caesar was murdered by Cassius and Brutus. Hell, a lot of events recorded in ancient history are never disbelieved, but often lack corroborating proof.

[Peregrine]

Strange. What if I were to believe that you, as a non-religious person, were biased? You'd deny it, much as I would deny any involvement in an interference in the search for truth. I have faith in my religion -- and if you're not going to believe anything that I say unless it's made by someone who's not a Christian [and if you find proof of Christianity, how the heck would you still be nonreligious -- at that very point your proof would become invalid to many], what's the point in arguing, anyway?

 

Actually, I will admit that I am biased in favor of nonreligious answers. A completely unbiased person does not exist. That's why my "no single story proves something" rule applies to myself as well. If I claimed to have evidence that god didn't exist, I'd expect you to demand more proof. And I'd call myself arrogant for assuming that it was definite fact without any other proof. I'll belive something a Christian says, as long as it is backed up by evidence. Personal faith doesn't count for that.

 

The fact of the matter is, there's no more "proof," in your sense of the word, that Jesus rose from the dead than that Caesar was murdered by Cassius and Brutus. Hell, a lot of events recorded in ancient history are never disbelieved, but often lack corroborating proof.

 

But the difference is that one requires additional assumptions and the other doesn't. Even ignoring all other accounts of the event, Caesar's murder requires only a belief in the ability to kill with a knife, and the ability of humans to conspire to murder someone. Both of which are clearly possible. But accepting the story of Jesus's ressurection requires the additional belief that such an event is possible. Something that is not definite fact, as proven by other sources. Obviously nothing that we don't experience for ourselves (and even some things we do) can be proven 100%, but we can come as close as can be reasonably expected.

 

 

 

 

And now, going back to your point about locations from the bible being found: Lets say tonight I write the following "book"

Jonathan Parke is god, and he rules from 904D Caroll Hall, NC State University. He was killed in a frisbee accident. But then he got bored of Hell and came back to life.

Obviously the part about my location is true, NCSU is a real place, and a real person named Jonathan Parke lives at 904D Caroll there. But equally obviously, the rest is not.

Now lets say someone decides to preserve it as a sacred artifact of their religion based around me (yes, I have an ego problem, I know). Now skip ahead to 10,000 years in the future, where that scrap of paper has been preserved, but NC State University has crumbled to ruins. Now say some scholar researching the ancient religious books discovers the remains of the university. Now that part is proved true, but does that say anything about the rest? Does that make me god? No, it just proves that the author of my scrap of paper incorporated a real place into his story.

 

Now how is the bible any different?

[Pikeman85]

I studied the Bible for seven years, the history behind it for 3. Perhaps I haven't done enough research, if so, show me the accounts during Jesus's time, outside of the Bible, that deal with him (that also aren't frauds of Eusebius.)

 

As for being biased, you bet I am. Just like every single living person on this whole Earth.

 

And as I said, extraordinary claims require EXTRAORDINARY EVIDENCE. Ordinary claims that the author has no reason to lie about are generally accepted into history.

[Dr. Corbett]

I don't know about you, but I haven't seen any proof that there isn't a God.

 

And the idea that we just randomly came into existance, when so many things in the universe are less than a percent change away from killing us all, from atoms that were just "there" and through methods dubious at best, also seems fairly extraordinary to me.

[Pikeman85]

Good, because as I've explained in other threads, it's NOT random chance. Something can have order and yet be unintelligent. If you wish to call this a God, feel free. I personally do not know if there is a consciousness or not behind the universe. I'd prefer to think there is, but with no evidence for or against certain things (i.e. there is no evidence that invisible kangaroos don't exist, but still) I cannot make an opinion and thus throw it off for another day to answer. I want to know what makes you think it is YOUR view of a deity that is the truth or something else. It was that very search, for what I considered would be the true nature of the divine, that led me where I am today.

 

I never intended to become what I've become, it just happened, because in a way, I guess it is the way I am.

[Peregrine]

I don't know about you, but I haven't seen any proof that there isn't a God.

And you never will. The nonexistence of something can not be proven 100%. There's always the chance that some evidence has been missed. But basic common sense says that if someone claims that something exists, they provide evidence for its existence. And that until they do so, we assume that it doesn't exist.

 

I, Jonathan Parke, am god. I made the universe because I got drunk one day. Those parties in hell get kind of ugly, you know? But anyway, here's your fundamental law. Obey it or spend eternity burning in heaven.

-Do what the d20 of fate decides.-

Now prove that I am not god, or we assume that I am.

 

See the problem with that type of argument? Why should it apply any differently to the Christian god?

 

And the idea that we just randomly came into existance, when so many things in the universe are less than a percent change away from killing us all, from atoms that were just "there" and through methods dubious at best, also seems fairly extraordinary to me.

 

And in what way is a conscious, active, god a better solution? If you look the facts instead of taking a book on blind faith, that possibility is equally extraordinary.

And as for the terrible odds, take a look at the rest of the universe. Where else have we found anything like us? Nowhere. So that kind of fits the bad odds.

 

 

And do you want to address the rest of my points in my previous post? Or anyone else feel like arguing against them? Or are you conceding that I'm right on those subjects?

[Pikeman85]

It's not random, it's based on the laws of physics and chemistry :P (Which themselves could likely have sprung into existance randomly, or as a cause of something we don't know about/can't understand) I just don't know why people think the God of their religious book did it, when there is no evidence for it.

[Stormscape]

I am an allist. I believe in every god. Though I worship none.

your gods in fact are not very much in the other realms. We are just normal people with more power than others. We were created by the gods of time, who created themselves.

[Pikeman85]

Could you explain your position further? I disagree, and likely won't ever agree but I would like to hear more of it. Please explain it here if you would, or if not create another thread, or contact me via a messanger service.

 

Oh, and that goes for any religion/philosophy/position/discussion.

[Peregrine]

I am an allist. I believe in every god. Though I worship none.

your gods in fact are not very much in the other realms. We are just normal people with more power than others. We were created by the gods of time, who created themselves.

Uh, put down the drugs and come back to reality please?

 

What do you mean by "other realms"?

Who are "we" and what is your "more power than others"?

What exactly are these gods of time, and how can something create itself?

 

 

Though I have to admit, I kind of like your religion.... since you believe in me as a god (I wrote a religion with myself as god just for fun once), could you start building that solid gold temple I always wanted. I mean, you wouldn't want to disappoint a god, would you?