Don't like freedom?

[marharth]

Without wading through this entire topic, I want to make some offhand observations, which do not require a response, thus I will probably ignore any.

 

 

* I happen to have watched some of the opening arguments regarding in the Federal Appeals court challenge to Healthcare law this weekend, and I noted with sardonic amusement that one of the precedents sited for federal overturn of a states rights issue was "Bush V Gore".

 

* I tend to notice that Americans, particularly those who consider themselves TeaPartiers, but also many others, often confuse "freedom" with "entitlement".

 

Well that doesn't exactly look good, making a few offhand observations without reading the thread, now does it? And going to ignore any responses? Cut and run, hm?

 

Entitlement? That's funny, I thought that was one of the favourite words of the Left when they seek to justify appropriating private possessions/wealth/taxing "The rich". "Because such and such a group..." (meaning the ones who voted for us and who don't want to get up and do anything themselves towards it) "are entitled to a certain this/that/the other..."

 

You have turned this totally on its' head, Myrmaad, but then I am hardly surprised that you have chimed in on the condescending,patronizing Left wing side suggesting that we conservatives are incapable of distinguishing between freedom and entitlement. Despite the fact that one of the things us poor simple souls believe is that we need to get off our bums, work in order to get our toys, we even believe in paying our dues in the form of taxes, but do feel (dare I say) entitled to squeak a little about how they are spent and to make our feelings known via the ballot box as well as via the media.

 

Socialist politics, as we have had the misfortune to experience in Europe for so long, is the restrictor of freedom, the Nanny State gone mad, that cannot resist the urge to interfere with legislation at every verse end.

I personally beleive in literally helping everyone, including people who completely fail at life (for more simplistic terms).

 

I don't think its fair to completely discredit all forms of socialist politics based on certain types tried in Europe.

 

Try to think more of a hypothetical socialist system, not the ones that have already been tried.

[ginnyfizz]

What good is hypothesis and theory when you have the dreadful reality before you?

[marharth]

What good is hypothesis and theory when you have the dreadful reality before you?

Let me backtrack a bit.

 

I am not sure why the socialism in Europe is entirely bad.

 

What are the laws and such that stop freedom?

Edited June 21, 2011 by marharth

[RZ1029]

Screw freedom for a moment: look at their economics. Name three Socialist countries that has a booming and successful economy.

 

A broke country can't help much of anyone, look at the US. We've been fighting a war we should have won in the first year for... 10 years now. Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security are continually failing those it was made to help. (Though I have some issues with those programs, that's a different argument for a different day.) Unemployment is so broke(n) it's not even funny, and we're living on borrowed money from the Chinese who could probably come collect at any time and leave us broke.

 

And the funny part is, I'd prefer we didn't have any of those things. But, if we're going to have them, they'd better get their act together and figure their stuff out.

 

Also, sad note: The banhammer has been dropped on my orange-brown color, I've going green. (insert environmental joke here, probably involving the fuel economy of my truck.)

Edited June 21, 2011 by RZ1029

[ginnyfizz]

What good is hypothesis and theory when you have the dreadful reality before you?

Let me backtrack a bit.

 

I am not sure why the socialism in Europe is entirely bad.

 

What are the laws and such that stop freedom?

 

Well...under the last Labour Government here in the UK, try the de facto abolition of the ancient writ of Habeas Corpus. A lot like Stalin's Russia. That by any standards is pretty terrifying, and don't even think about saying "If you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear."

[RZ1029]

That by any standards is pretty terrifying, and don't even think about saying "If you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear."

 

But... but... I'm sure you have nothing to fear, it's not like you've done anything wrong... have you?

 

Yeah, though I believe I actually used that phrase in the debate on the Patriot Act, I see the highly flawed argument behind it as well. You've got nothing to fear so long as you've done nothing wrong assuming the guy in charge doesn't decide he doesn't like what you're doing, whether it's okay or not by law. Because now he can haul you in if he wants and you can't say anything about it, because it's legal.

 

Also... dang this green is ugly. I need a better color.

 

This blue?

This blue?

Or this... err.. color?

[marharth]

What good is hypothesis and theory when you have the dreadful reality before you?

Let me backtrack a bit.

 

I am not sure why the socialism in Europe is entirely bad.

 

What are the laws and such that stop freedom?

 

Well...under the last Labour Government here in the UK, try the de facto abolition of the ancient writ of Habeas Corpus. A lot like Stalin's Russia. That by any standards is pretty terrifying, and don't even think about saying "If you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear."

To be honest, I know close to nothing about politics in the UK. I do know they are corrupt like the USA's, but not really much else.

 

What exactly do you mean, was there a certain law passed? Or does the court or some other system just ignore it?

 

And do the economic troubles and freedom issues come from socialism? Look at the US, we are a capitalist country and we have the worst debt in the world. And we are starting to have some serious freedom issues.

[ginnyfizz]

The ancient writ of habeas corpus is the common law protection against wrongful detention and you really should know what it is, since it was also one of the principles that guided the Founding Fathers. Literally it means "You may have the body".

 

Using the soi disant War On Terror as an excuse, the Labour Government extended the time that suspects can be held without charge. All very well, but they also extended what they please to call terrorists to mean "anyone who goes to demos and yells rude things about Tony B.Liar..." which I did on a demo against the abolition of hunting with dogs. Yeah, we don't even have the freedom to kill vermin.

 

So it goes on, Socialist Governments flushing ancient liberties down the loo when they do not suit. And we can't even manage to impeach Tony Blair for his series of porkies to the House and his dodgy dossier, let alone charge him with High Treason.

 

By the way, referring to something Grannywils said earlier, if you were to take a look at UK politics Granny, you would see why it is easy to equate "Liberal" with "left wing". Our Liberal Democrat Party, notwithstanding their current coalition with the Conservative Party, have a sizable proportion of members who may fairly be said to be on the extreme Left (probably somewhat to the left of one Leon Trotsky in many cases.)

[marharth]

The ancient writ of habeas corpus is the common law protection against wrongful detention and you really should know what it is, since it was also one of the principles that guided the Founding Fathers. Literally it means "You may have the body".

 

Using the soi disant War On Terror as an excuse, the Labour Government extended the time that suspects can be held without charge. All very well, but they also extended what they please to call terrorists to mean "anyone who goes to demos and yells rude things about Tony B.Liar..." which I did on a demo against the abolition of hunting with dogs. Yeah, we don't even have the freedom to kill vermin.

 

So it goes on, Socialist Governments flushing ancient liberties down the loo when they do not suit. And we can't even manage to impeach Tony Blair for his series of porkies to the House and his dodgy dossier, let alone charge him with High Treason.

 

By the way, referring to something Grannywils said earlier, if you were to take a look at UK politics Granny, you would see why it is easy to equate "Liberal" with "left wing". Our Liberal Democrat Party, notwithstanding their current coalition with the Conservative Party, have a sizable proportion of members who may fairly be said to be on the extreme Left (probably somewhat to the left of one Leon Trotsky in many cases.)

The US can also hold people they suspect of terrorism without charge...

 

Still not seeing how it relates to socialism.

[HeyYou]

The ancient writ of habeas corpus is the common law protection against wrongful detention and you really should know what it is, since it was also one of the principles that guided the Founding Fathers. Literally it means "You may have the body".

 

Using the soi disant War On Terror as an excuse, the Labour Government extended the time that suspects can be held without charge. All very well, but they also extended what they please to call terrorists to mean "anyone who goes to demos and yells rude things about Tony B.Liar..." which I did on a demo against the abolition of hunting with dogs. Yeah, we don't even have the freedom to kill vermin.

 

So it goes on, Socialist Governments flushing ancient liberties down the loo when they do not suit. And we can't even manage to impeach Tony Blair for his series of porkies to the House and his dodgy dossier, let alone charge him with High Treason.

 

By the way, referring to something Grannywils said earlier, if you were to take a look at UK politics Granny, you would see why it is easy to equate "Liberal" with "left wing". Our Liberal Democrat Party, notwithstanding their current coalition with the Conservative Party, have a sizable proportion of members who may fairly be said to be on the extreme Left (probably somewhat to the left of one Leon Trotsky in many cases.)

The US can also hold people they suspect of terrorism without charge...

 

Still not seeing how it relates to socialism.

 

But, not in the continental US. So far... they are all out at gitmo. We've had folks in there for the better part of a decade, without so much as even telling them what we think we might charge them with.

 

When the government/whatever authority figure can hold you as long as they want, without charge, or due process of any sort, things are getting pretty bad.